Hello and welcome! 🙂
This vultology quiz will follow the old format, without the use of the codifier. (Next weekend we'll have one with the codifier to compare against)
To enter the quiz, reply to this thread with something like "I'm in", and I will send you the samples via forum PM.
Please do not share the samples with anyone else until the quiz is over.
This quiz involves 3 samples. Each of which counts for 4 points based on the following metric:
This adds up to a total of 12 (3x4) points. Scores will be calculated against both the group consensus and myself at the end.
Quiz is open from right now up to Monday morning. (~48hrs)
There's no need for a PDF report or anything, although you can be as thorough as you want. Send the results back to me via PM on the forum here. All you need to add, detail-wise, is your estimate of their type. But again, more detail like dev level is optional.
Alright, here we go!
I'll be joining.
I would like to give it a try, depending on how my day goes tomorrow. Thanks!
Okay, we got most everyone's results in, but for those few who still need to turn them in-- results will happen in an hour! 🙂
The samples that were sent are these:
Michael Adams Davis
The consensus for the 3 samples are:
#1. Ceema Picardo: FeNi
#2. Azza Mustafa: FeNi
#3. Michael Davis: TeNi
Usually I do two different scores, but in this case my own result happens to align with the group consensus so I'll just do one.
Point wise the results of each member are:
If you omit me, that would make Calin the score closest to the consensus. Congrats!
Now we can discuss the samples. So, I spent only about 10-15 minutes looking at each one. Here are some brief thoughts:
Ceema Picardo -- I can imagine some members misapplying Si to her because of the shape of the eyes, but she fits squarely into the Ni/Se tension described here (as GGS). Movements are very on-beat and have warm swelling, as well as symmetrical lip movements. FeNi. Development appears I--- to me at a glance.
Azza Mustafa -- She was a bit tricky to me. I first thought TeNi but then realized that all dynamic movements fit FeNi, but she has some natural squareness to her face. It looks at times like she has four-point pulling, but the lips look symmetrical to me and all movements seem timely to me. So I prioritize dynamic over static signals. She also has a slow-down though, from Pi consciousness. Which is why I think II-- is her development.
Michael Davis -- My first glance at this guy had me thinking SeFi l-l-. But the more I looked at his videos, the more I saw TeNi l-l-, semi-manic. He's pretty zany but it's in the Charlie Sheen sort of way. It's cannonball-like.
(edit: oh, and I used a youtube roulette site which randomizes videos, and just picked the first 3 properly framed ones. So I wasn't trying to go for diversity. They just so happened to all be Je-leads it seems.)
I was sure of her functions but felt she could have been just about any type of experienced teacher Beta, lol. Since I'm the only participant that gave her a P+reviser lead, here is my reasoning behind it:
The video provided = her standing at a white board, pen in hand, some notes already behind her. This is a format used by multiple teachers on the YT channel. So it's not "her thing", but instead looks to be a job assigned to or agreed upon by these teachers. (Your turn to make a video about X in front of our giant whiteboard.) It seemed to me that this format could easily lend to a "conductor" vibe in a reviser with conscious Je + job experience, because it's very much the teacher-at-the-front-of the-classroom setup. She turns away from the camera, jots things down, has a chance to see all the notes to collect her thoughts for the next bit, and that keeps repeating for the whole duration. If you know your material that's an ideal setup for a reviser to appear neatly collected.
I feel there is a strong case for Se here; she moves sooo much! She has a definite sway and actively steps from side-to-side. Her head is often tipping from one side or another, rather than having a strong J rigidity. Her gestures are commonly open-palmed and casual in this video, moving out away from her sides. Sometimes her hands hit with a definite stop, but most of the time I saw her rolling from one into another. I felt the pen could be interfering, though...
I wanted a video of Ceema with her hands free, and used this one alongside what you gave us. This is the reason why I chose a Reviser development for her. She has a lot more receding energy, Pe perk-ups and eye toggles during recall, and her eyes appear more open. She touches her face, her hair, and her hands drop down into her lap after gesturing. She has very good posture but she sways slightly and keeps leaning back into her arm rest juuust a bit. She never seemed like stick-straight J, but more flexible. There is definitely more J exacting hands along with the P casual hands, but she didn't seem like TiSe to me, so I went with SeTi.
I debated FeNi or NiFe, I just didn't get strong conductor vibes from her. Notably, Ceema does not have Pi inertia/slowdown of momentum, and does not go into any diagonal eye-drifts during recall. (Her recall makes her look upward and do toggles!) So I pegged her as a Pe lead with both J conscious to account for the multitude of J signals. She strikes me as reviser with 8+ years of instructional YT videos under her belt, and the added benefit of a script or notes to keep her on track.
There are also several videos of her standing with her hands free. (And a very Pe shirt choice, haha.) This one also shows quite a bit of meticulous hands since she doesn't have a pen to deal with. Again, I think her eyes look a bit more open... The provided sample video might make her look more sleepy eyed because the camera is positioned higher, showing way more space above her head, whereas the videos without the whiteboard are more straight-on/natural eye-contact level.
I would need to analyze more videos of her and codify them properly to feel fully confident of any particular type and development for her. She comes across as a very good teacher, she knows her job, and I feel frustrated by the very planned & polished videos that are produced on a classroom channel. I don't know how much agency she has over what she creates for that business, but I prefer typing from dialogue videos or at least where you can be reasonably sure the creator is speaking candidly.
She was tricky to type, as she is so poised! She only has slight pulling, but it is there, and her gestures are never quite on-beat. For anyone doubting her Te, here is a successful steamroll for your viewing pleasure, lol. Rewatching that clip, she does look a lot more face-centric to me, had paid more attention to that or had I only seen that clip I would have definitely said TeNi.
I went with Ni lead because in her other on-air clips she seems to always move with her eyes. They are generally locked-on to camera or they look down at her notes, and her whole head moves with them. She also has a very fluid posture in the studio, where she leans in toward the viewer or leans from one side to the other in a way that struck me as eye-centric + slowed by Pi inertia. She didn't have the Te jitteriness or "sass" that I would expect of a Te lead, so I went with NiTe. Now I could definitely say TeNi ||--.
I only had time to watch the one video, and I definitely felt funny typing him as a Pe-lead when overall he is so sleepy-eyed, lol. But, I didn't want to judge by anatomy, and really tried to watch for the signals... I did not see any sharp or locked-on eyes from him; his eye toggles seemed very brushstroke-y in a few instances, and the perk-ups seemed quirky rather than amped despite the fact that he looked more Ni/Se anatomically. I also thought he seemed to display more buoyant undercurrent than gravity, though in re-watching a snippet I think it was his Te shaking him that gave me that impression! Ha!
I was very torn between calling him Te lead or Pe lead. So much Te sass, but then... casual hands!! Lots of circular motions, lots of side-to-side going away from the body. Plus lots of Pe toggles and a slightly choppy delivery that made me think reviser rather than conductor. I think that even had I seen Ni/Se in him, I would have said SeFi |-|- because of the halting delivery and ↔ hands. I should watch more videos to feel like I could be absolutely sure between TeNi and SeFi, simply because of how much Pe is going on, but now I would definitely lean more toward TeSi from this one, and I especially notice that he has frequent diagonal eye-drifts during recall, which Ceema was lacking...
I don't have time for more research now, but after review, I type them as follows:
Ceema = SeTi |||-
Azza = TeNi ||-- (I'd like to see more interview / dialogue clips to be more sure of this.)
Michael = TeNi |-|- (Again, I'm sure more videos would help me feel more sure, but will I?)
I also saw her as TeNi II-- based on what I see as taught square and sassy movements.
(I didnt see the quiz before last night, too late to participate)
And after I read your post, @Rochelle, I searched and found this:
She is smiling a lot in this clip, fx from 25:50
Wobbling lips and split cheeks, here you go 😉
Its beginning to get difficult to ignore the total lack of response when posting something. This time the silence is of minor importance compared to especially one other instance, but this time it is just so obviously strange with not a single comment to a topical post about a quiz that has just been going on and where I challenge the consensus. Which I do with screenshots that I think had deserved to be at least discussed.
I did not think it would be necessary to elaborate on my reasons for posting since it is quit evident, but the silence invite me to do so.
I do not at all claim that the quiz participants typing is wrong, I am not qualified enough to do that, but I claim that it could be argued that this woman has something that at least comes very close to a classic Te/Fi muscular tension in her cheeks. If this is not Te/Fi I think I still could expect a few words about how it is not so, since anybody would admit that it is not an easy job to explain the difference between what is on these images and what we have seen on 100s of pictures of women with Te/Fi vultology (the only thing the points against it is the constant distance between her over-lip and nose, but that is also the case with FiSe Janet Jackson.
And if the typings are based mainly on her gestures, then what in her gestures are so much Fe that it totally overrules the Te signals in her face (if I am right about them). As Rochelle points out, her gestures are never quite on beat. Also I would say that besides what could be due to her training as a TV host, her tendency is to show plateau velocity. Although I do not really understand the English term "sassy" I would say that her movements tends to be a bit messy compared to the well regulated Fe movements. As I remember it, she has some swelling and with coordinated movements but regarding all of here gestures I would like to see her when not on television and just hanging out with friends.
I have more things to get of my chest but that is enough for now.
I made some tables based on the quiz results:
Based on these aggregations, Ceema is an ENFJ, Azza is an ENFJ and Michael is an ESTJ.
Hey @sekundaer, that's a great clip, thanks for sharing it with me! She's talking with someone, which I think lets the vultology shine a bit better than when someone is just "doing their job" in front of a camera.
I have to agree that it's strange to see this topic so silent. Right after the results were posted there was a bit of chatter on them in Discord, and when those conversations died out everybody moved on. Personally, I think it would have been far more productive to discuss the quiz results here, on the forum, where this quiz originated... As it is, this just looks like we did a thing, had our results posted, aaand... what? Nothing is conclusive. Nothing seems to have been accomplished by this. You'd have to be keeping up with the chat to know that it had ever been discussed at all. In the chat it looks like there was agreement on Azza's majority result being incorrect, so anyone who only sees the forums is going to see Azza as a confusing example. If anyone isn't in the chat or if a newcomer were to stumble across this thread it looks like this was a big waste of time for everyone.
I'd prefer to see more comprehensive discussion of the results right here in this thread, where it's easy to see everything and refer back to for learning purposes. If participants don't discuss why they gave their results, so hopefully those of us who erred can be shown clearly how we were wrong so that we can improve... Well, what is the point of doing this?
Calin is unable to log into his account and post here, so I'll speak on his behalf. He's still digging in his heels on Azza being TeNi. Although he noticed some moments in her gesticulations that looked Fe, those quick moments were over-ruled by the Te signals others have already pointed out.
Here are my thoughts:
I can see why people would think TeSi because her scowls almost look concerned the way they raise up in the middle, but her eyelids stay lowered and hypnotic the entire time. She also has fairly plump cheeks that make her face look square, but she has warm swelling throughout the whole video. I couldn't find any moments of plateau velocity or sassy shakes. Also, the subject matter of the video seems to be all about teaching people how to Fe.
I didn't want to type this lady at all because I couldn't find any videos where she seems natural and isn't in performance mode. Her Je signals didn't quite align with any of the Je leads I was comparing her to on the database: not sassy enough to be Te lead and too reserved to be Fe lead. Compared to them, she seemed more contained and princess-like to me with her elbows turned in towards her torso at some points. Her eyes looked more amped than hypnotic, and I didn't see any side drifts or zone outs, so Ni didn't seem to be the thing slowing her down. After comparing her to all the gammas on the database (except SeFi) I eventually settled on FiSe |--| who was amping up her Je and toning down her Ji quirks (like disengagements and momentum halts) for the sake of the performance. I even considered maybe her looking down at her notes was just an excuse to disengage without looking awkward.
Since the quiz, I've been convinced by the arguments that she's most likely TeNi, which would have been my second choice. I remember Auburn saying in the past that newscasters who are Te can learn to be coordinated, so without a video of her when she's not in performance mode I have to dismiss the 2 Fe signals Auburn pointed out for now.
For example, Auburn posted this gif on the Discord to demonstrate her coordination
To me it looks like it's almost coordinated, but her hand and head seem to be moving at different speeds and hitting at separate times.
Her mouth does seem symmetrical, but even Auburn admitted he sees the 4-point pulling.
I came to the conclusion of TeNi for this guy after about 2 minutes, but I watched several of his videos to make sure. I still didn't have any doubts about his vultology, but I can see why people would think his personality seems more Ne. He's very goofy, and his skits could be seen as caricatures or parodies. I've soft typed others with similar Ne-esque personalities as TeNi, like John Kricfalusi (creator of Ren and Stimpy). They're kind of like the TeSi |-|- nerd shade, but with more intensity.
Thanks for the information @Rochelle and in my eyes you are so right in what you are saying, without this discussion afterwards at least I would have been left in total confusion.
BTW, regarding Ceema, I couldn´t see the rigidness in her either. I think she is so hard to type. Maybe that would reflect in her personality too and not only in her vultology? She gives the impression of Fe but especially with her the fact that she is performing should be considered , she is even teaching about gestures and their amount as one of the topics on her board. The rigidity she shows in her gestures are very short lived and I see her hands living a much more fluid life in between these punctuated motions where she either lets her hands drop down, as you point out, or makes horizontal fluid motions. But then there is symmetry in her movements and lips.
@Elisa Day , the plump cheeks turn into split cheeks in another movie, so it is not just an anatomical thing. What should have most weight, cheeks or velocity/coordination ?
@Sekundaer Whether cheeks or velocity/coordination should hold more weight in model 1 is a good question. If I learned anything from this quiz, it seems the latter would be the answer.
Split cheeks as a signal has been entirely removed from the model 2 signals due to it being ambiguous and inconsistent. Many times Fe apple cheeks can resemble split cheeks, and there are some Fe/Ti people on the database that have this ambiguous cheek anatomy due to their high cheek bones (Al gore, Elon Musk, and Mia Wasikowska come to mind).
On the Discord server, @Auburn brought up Oprah as an example:
He even created these lovely mirror image photos of each side of her face to show how the left side looks Fe while the right side looks Fi.
So instead, we now have signals such as 4-point pulling (tension in the levator and depressor muscles) vs 2-point pulling (tension in the zygomatic muscles) to focus more on what is happening underneath rather than focusing on the effect the muscular tension causes on the surface.
I personally was not seeing 4-point pulling in Ceema's facial muscles, but I thought I was able to see it in Azza's. I'm not saying 4-point pulling isn't there in Ceema, I'm just saying I didn't see it during the time when I was taking the quiz when I was actively looking for it (I haven't looked again since) which was why I was more confident about typing her Fe/Ti.
Ceema is in performance mode, yes. It's not the same level of a performance as Azza's, which seems far more polished and perfected over time, but it's a performance nonetheless. I'm not sure where to draw the line or whether it needs to be considered at all. When Auburn mentioned the Te newscasters who learn coordination, he also mentioned that plateau velocity still shines through in them even if it's subtle. Maybe it would be helpful to see these examples.