Vultology Quiz #6

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  • Rochelle
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    You are welcome!  Elisa had some really good insights to share, too.  So thank you, Elisa. 🙂

    I agree about that gif of Azza.  Her fingertips and chin are hitting at slightly different times.  Because she’s so smooth in her presentation, that was what especially watched for to decide between Te/Fe in the provided video.  She’s just never quite on beat, her hits don’t line up.  Azza doesn’t come across as monotone, but I think her speech does follow a certain pattern that lacks the natural variance that comes with Fe.  She’s also not using her facial expressions to emote toward her viewers, as far as I saw.  (Granted I don’t know what she’s talking about, maybe there was nothing to smile about, but really I can’t tell if she’s relaying good news, or bad news, or what… I don’t feel like I’m getting any emotional vibes from her whatsoever.)  Contrast that with how Fe uses emotional expression to hammer home whatever they are talking about.

     

    As for the question about the split cheeks, yes anatomical signals should be valued below the energetics, or whatever the non-anatomical signals are called. 😅  So, weight the velocity/coordination more.  👍  Because with some people they might “look” Fe, or Te, or whatever else, and while their body language, speech, vultology, etc, doesn’t support it you aren’t looking for those signals anymore because you saw a certain smile, or eyebrow shape, etc.

    Ceema doesn’t have the stereotypical Fe smile, but her mouth is very symmetrical, and her speech and gestures fit Fe signals rather than Te.  She is definitely hard to type… Because of the business channel video format I don’t feel like we will get many insights into her personality from these videos. 🙁

    sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Thanks @Elisa Day. I know that there are changes.  About a month ago it said:  “Taut Square Cheeks and Horizontally Split Cheeks have been consolidated into one meta-signal called “Four Point Pulling” — which is the famous “H” pattern” ,  but the idea is now to remove split cheeks?  Four point pulling must be the same as taught square, which was the H-pattern.  I think the picture I posted is very similar to the modulated picture of Oprah.  The pull is not upwards towards the ears but totally horizontal. At least as I see it in the picture ( link is underneath – she smiles much more in that clip, fx in the very beginning of it).  Maybe it is not worth to go more into her, since when the code has just changed it might be better to focus on examples where it is more obvious what is meant.

     

     

    sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @Rochelle –  thats a pity since anatomical signals (I thought that “anatomical” only referred to the form of the eyes, eyebrows, chicks etc.) like tension in the cheeks area are rather impossible to “fake” or copy from other people.  Italians as example have a lot more gestures than people of the north, so here can be a bias that wouldnt be seen with involuntary tension in the face.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by sekundaer.
    Rochelle
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    I could be wrong about smile being labelled anatomical, but it seemed to me it was considered so. 🤔

    Also, I know a bunch of redundancies were consolidated in Model 2, but I don’t remember if split cheeks signal was totally removed.  I’ll have to double check.  I know it can create a lot of confusion, so if you note it you still have to check to see that the other signals match up.  And so this is where the weight of vultological signals comes in to play.  If it’s a toss-up because: Fe voice, Fe gestures, Te split cheeks, Te/Fi smile… Then disregard the physical signs, I believe?  Someone correct me if I’m wrong on this.

    I do understand what you are saying, and especially early on in discovering CT I was pretty big on simply looking for the physical indicators because as you say it should be impossible to fake, right??  Well, yes and no… I wish it were as simple as glancing at someone and seeing if they have Si eyes, etc.  But in reality those physical signals can be obscured…  Really good make-up can change the impression of eye anatomy, not to mention plastic surgery.  Things change with age, too, and not always in ways that make the native signal more “set in”, haha.

     

    Curious to be sure I’m understanding you, are you saying that the prevalence of “more gestures” makes them less authentic than other signals?  As in they are copied because it so common in the region?  It seems that each individual would put their own unique stamp to them, even if they were learned. 🙂  But then I do also wonder how much of communication style ends up parroted from others that we spend a lot of time with!!  😆

    I’m also curious to see how these signal mixings come to play in any future theory of 8-function possibilities.  Maybe the super tricky people simply are using both!

    sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Yes, I think we copy from each other.
    I dont think that gestures are in our genes.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/world/europe/when-italians-chat-hands-and-fingers-do-the-talking.html

    My guess would be that one had to correct for this or one would get vultology reports with all too much Je in Italy.

    Contrary there are environments where one would learn to inhibit strong body language.  One of my friends had je as if he chopped firewood.
    He joined a cult and soon his movements was restraint and non-aggressive, – until he came out again.

    Also indian head movements are interesting – try it, its very difficult for a westerner 🙂

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj56IPJOqWE

    Rochelle
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    Hmm…  I think gestures are a big part of helping us formulate speech, so we are probably going to naturally develop (or be more prone to copy) the gestures that go along with our cognition.

    That’s a very interesting article about Italian hand gestures!  There is a lot of Italian in my family, but way too far removed from those roots to be using such authentic, meaningful signs. (Though a few of the ones mentioned match how we use them, so I’d say some are pretty universal.)   I like it, though!  Borderline sign language!  Most of us do a lot of talking with our hands, I know I’m certainly guilty of it.

    Within that article and short video I did notice that there was some variation among the native gesturer’s movement.  “Perfect” was shown with 3 fingers apart by a couple people, then the last person had 3 fingers together.  It would be interesting to see if there are any consistent differences in how a person forms their gestures that match up to functions.

     

    I love the Indian head nodding!  I’ve seen a video like that before.  I have tried it, too, haha.  I notice that some individuals have a very smooth nodding style and others seem a lot more sharp, maybe functions play into that.

     

    I think culturally trained gestures and movements are worthy of study.  I think you’d still see the plateau velocity of Te or the warm swelling of Fe unique to each individual in these motions.  And gestures are not limited to J functions… P functions get “casual hands”, their own set of gestures different from J gestures.  So lots of gestures shouldn’t mean they are doomed to mistype.  It would be interesting to see if cultures with a lot of gestures leads to higher rates of function consciousness, because they are activating those parts of the brain..? Hmm…

    I also wonder how it effects us long-term to purposefully pick up a non-native gesture, or stop using one, like your friend did.  I had a childhood friend that copied an actor with a very distinctive Fi lip-pull.  They did the impression so much that they started having lip pulls when they weren’t doing the impression.  It was brought to their attention and they were told to stop, lol.  Of course, we did not know it was a “Fi thing” back then!

    Having enough mindfulness to focus, sit, stand, or move our hands a certain way does change the way we feel and how we are perceived.  I don’t know if anyone has tried it specifically within the realm of CT, to see if specific functions can be channeled.

    a.k.a.Janie
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Either there are mistakes in the first table (Ceema) in my row entry, or I can’t understand correctly how the points were assigned.
    I would be thankful if someone could explain.
    The quiz was fun, by the way.

    sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Yes, I the Indian head bobble is a funny “signal” – I also tried to do it  It’s  a bit of a stretch for a J-type, it’s a totally none-J movement. I might start doing it now and then when I am typing, I can feel it would be healthy for my neck.
    I think that at least one would see more extroverted signals among Italians, but among men I would think that it especially will be a higher degree of Je-gestures as being macho is such an ideal.
    Its an interesting idea that there could be an opposite cause-effect relation between movements and functions. I think like you that movements affects ones psychology. One of the fathers of behaviorism did an experiment on himself where he dodged every time he came close to some horses and soon be began to experience fear of them. Gordon Peterson talks about straightening your back as a way to straightening your morals. Loosening up your body makes your mind more loose and tensing up makes you more determined. An army marching comes to mind.
    Body and mind goes together, so I guess expressing specific signals would somehow increase the assess to a function. I think that its difficult to make Je movements without at the same time having an opinion or care about what you say, it would feel/look very funny if not. Also it would be difficult (and strange) to make Pe-movements while thinking about the exact definition of a word, but it might be easier to think of many different meanings and associations.

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