This has slowly become clearer to me as I've discussed things with our Fi/Te users in this post, but also as we near the completion of the vultology series. The relationship between Fi and Te is not exactly what I thought it was. I used to think that advocates fighting for Fi "rights" were of an Fi subtype. But I was wrong, and this goes back to a deeper misunderstanding of Te in particular.
In the database, the highest concentration of Fi-values advocates are high-Te types. This showed up way back in the first career statistics study with Te-leads making up 38.9% of activists (and Fe-leads in second place with 25%). What this means is two things:
When we see high Fi users such as NeFi Aurora Aksnes, NeFi Regina Spektor, FiSe Michael Jackson -- they're not crusaders for justice. Instead, the crusading is done by high Te's like NiTe TheWhiteRose, NiTe Zinnia Jones, TeSi Lauren Southern, TeSi Rebecca Watson, and so on.
This is because Fi on its own has no agency.
The most seelie Fi entity out there would be incapable of fighting for its own right to exist - hence why "rose" is an appropriate symbol for Fi. Radiance and delicacy intermixed. The "claws" of an Fi user come from Te. The sword and shield. This is also why, I suspect, we see so many Te-lead women (Martha Becks/Brene Brown/Glennon Doyle/etc) defending Fi values while themselves being quite militant (even about the defending).
Every Je user needs something to value and thus to fight for. For Fe, the moral cause is integrated into Je -- as both animated elements (F)(e) are given to Fe -- and Ti is given both inanimate elements. But for Te, it sources values from Fi.
And more broadly speaking:
Notes on J Oscillation Dynamics & Emotions
Oscillations work in unison, but an individual will always address their emotional needs from the psychic structure of their ethical functions. All Fe users, even low-Fe users, will need to utilize Fe as part of the solution to emotional harmony. Likewise, all high Te users will need to utilize their low Fi as part of the solution to emotional harmony. And there is no human who isn't driven towards emotional harmony.
In short: Everybody is emotionally driven.
I hope this makes sense.
Let me know what you guys think of this clarification, and if it rings true for you?
(Te/Fi has been an enigmatic axis to me and I'm always learning more about it as I see patterns reinforce themselves over time)
What exactly needs adjustment:
The idea that Te is capitalistic & meritocratic is a partially symptomatic and incomplete view of the function. If you ask those successful Te millionaires why they do it, they will reflect to you some Fi value. Even if the value is as skewed and immature as "I want to protect my absolute (financial) independence" or "It makes me feel safe" or "To protect my family", there will likely be some ethical incentive. And this may even be unconscious to the Te user if their Fi development is particularly infantile.
Te and immature Fi:
The immature Fi within a high Te hierarchy will not always know their own values. And those values which they do possess may be very poorly thought out. They may be at the maturity level of a toddler (re: Donald Trump) yet will still guide them nonetheless. The midlife crisis/burnout phenomenon appears to be a common occurrence for Te-lead women/men who have thus far been able to get by with their Te in American society without needing to integrate Fi.
I think a high Te user who is going the financial route is building a fortress/kingdom for themselves --without always having a rose to protect within its walls.
Indeed, Te is orderly and easily disgusted; so, Te builds boundaries including defining rights (deontology). To Fi, virtue ethics is actually more native; either as emotional control or as moral humility/self-compassion from a lack of disgust.
'Getting rich' seems indeed more Fe (status/prestige I suppose), yet property is very Te (as alternative to social power). So, I suggest reffering to "property" rather than "power".
PS. @auburn What's "immature Fi?" Unskilled Fi? Seems like your Fe lashed out.
What’s “immature Fi?” Unskilled Fi? Seems like your Fe lashed out.
lol, maybe? perhaps, despite this clarification, I still don't understand Te (and its relation to Fi) fully.
As for what I meant by immature, I think it would apply to any lower function but especially to lower Fe/Fi. When immature, the lower function is used incompletely/selectively, and in the service of the higher ones.
A high Te using lower Fi disgust to build boundaries and cast shade on certain 'kinds' of (disgusting) people is one example. The other qualities of Fi such as permeability, valuing essences and individualities, etc -- are not the prime motivators.
Likewise a high Ti using Fe to navigate themselves socially with adaptive niceness + falsehoods (cowardice) is another example. Fe's other qualities in honor, morality and integrity are not integrated.
I think a high Te user who is going the financial route is building a fortress/kingdom for themselves –without always having a rose to protect within its walls.
I really can't say anything for sure because I am not a high Te user and don't have conscious Te but what I feel (lol sorry :)) ) is that there always must be a rose. Maybe sometimes the Te user does not see it - maybe it's hidden in the fortress or maybe he is protecting an empty fortress and his rose is somewhere else.
I wonder if for Te leads Fi looks threatening, like Ni looks threatening to me. Developing Fi could look like becoming weak and risking to lose the battles.
Someone with conscious Te once told me he finds some high Fi people a bit irrational. 🙂 Which is similar to how I see Ni in itself, my Ni (not Ni leads or Ni conscious people). Maybe their story is that they are afraid to completely let that rose grow? Because it would be a part of themselves that would be openly exposed. Easy to pick by others or to taint. So, keeping it underground might feel safer.
Maybe since Te is my third function, I am not really afraid of it, but I am worried that more focus on Te would make me look less feminine. And that it could hurt other people. Te development looks like losing myself. Ni development looks like a risk to go insane. :))) I know both impressions are wrong, of course, I am just trying to help you with the Sentinel/Guardian/Shield for the Rose story.
So, from Fi's point of view, this is all different. Higher Fi people realize Fi is indestructible. If someone picks the rose, the rose bush is still there. And will always grow other roses. You can always clean the well. It's something that can't be truly taken over or permanently corrupted. And then the greater concern is that fighting for it could make you commit an evil deed. So, you tend to think...let's just sit here and bloom. 🙂 But then you do less in the world. You are less active. And sometimes blooming is not enough, sometimes many horrible things are happening around you and action is necessary to stop them.
You can also project and think the Rose is someone else. Or the Shield is someone else. I project the Rose a lot, much more than the Shield. Despite having lower Te, with others I am more protective than just blooming, I guess. But I think this is a mistake and that it's important to realize that these are actually parts of myself.
You can always clean the well. It’s something that can’t be truly taken over or permanently corrupted.
Unless there's a disease in the soil that drains the color from the garden and makes it wilt. I have not had the luxury of remaining uncorrupted. I had no interest in politics, no interest in money... but once I had medical bills that cost 50K a year, no ability to keep a job due to illness, and ridiculous blocks stopping me from getting medicine because I have a political illness - it suddenly hit me that politics are real. Due to the politics around Lyme it was impossible to get a diagnosis, and this is why I lost my voice and almost died. Thus I took it upon myself to educate others, even though there was huge stigma around it which extended to right-left politics. It was worth it because several people discovered their Lyme diagnosis because of my posts - which saved their life!
And I believe this is very similar to why other Te-heavy people fight back. Before I lost my voice I had no interest and was only taken with expressing and embodying my own values, my music, my art. When that was ruthlessly stolen from me my perspective changed and I knew I needed to be a champion for others, to retain a sense of integrity. But I did this by sharing my personal story, not by becoming some kind of political advocate. I showed them by embodying my fight as an examplar.
I was subject to so much abuse, so much loss and so much trauma - that I became strong out of necessity. And why not use that strength to protect people who are genuinely vulnerable? But to me, protecting them means inspiring them. I'm Pe first - a catalyst, an inspirer. I can catalyze the seed of strength inside their soul.
I do protect and defend people who are genuinely vulnerable. I don't care whatsoever for shielding delicate flowers, or carefully tiptoeing around them - and I don't think that protecting people who are voluntarily weak is actually doing any favors. It's enabling them. To me, that would be the worst crime. It would be keeping all the strength and glory for myself. 😉 And my Fi integrity won't allow that.
I would much rather embody my fight, and my strength - and show people by example that if I did this, you can do this too. And I think that's my role in the world, much more than being a protector or a champion - it's to show people, by example, that they can become whatever they want to be. The choice is in their hands. I can show them that opportunity exists, but I can't tell them which path is theirs, or walk it for them. I'm a catalyst, an inspirer, a muse, an exemplar, embodying my own values. My values just happen to include being my own defender, warrior and champion... and trying my best to avoid fueling voluntary weakness in myself or in others.
@auburn: "despite this clarification, I still don’t understand Te (and its relation to Fi) fully"
You hypothesized that the activism comes from Fi; however, that still implies that high Te-users with conscious Fi are more deliberately cause-driven (which doesn’t seem the case, right?)
The simpler explanation would be that Te is a proactive disgust complex, cleaning up impurities, whereas Fi is a reactive disgust complex, avoiding what's not pure.
That matches my Seelie NeFi |||- experience. When physically assaulted, I felt no need to defend myself, yet when I saw someone else being attacked I threw myself between them. I feel as much goodwill towards criminals as towards their victims (I made friends with both), yet can't help myself from standing up against groups (e.g. in class and at a party among millionaires). And honesty feels more important than generosity, despite believing they are equally important.
Unless there’s a disease in the soil that drains the color from the garden and makes it wilt. I have not had the luxury of remaining uncorrupted.
I think at heart you actually remained uncorrupted and that we all do. This tainting seems to me temporary.
Look, I never had any similar experience. But I needed to work in a pretty immoral environment. And I also got to see some corruption in my relationships with some friends.
Anyway, what I generally feel is that there is a lot of GREED in the world. Greed for money, greed for sex, greed for power, greed for vengeance. People are very greedy. And some want parts of other people !!! Which is the worst kind of greed.
I think this shows perfectly in Florence and the Machine's song - Shake it out. And every demon wants his pound of flesh. But I like to keep some things for myself... 🙂 <3 And her conclusion seems similar to mine. That you can clean the well !
And by the way, what is the Machine? 🙂 I picture my Te like a machine.
(nope, not her Te :)), just a collaborator...but Florence + the Machine sounds like such an Fi & Te name, really :)) )
The fact that you want to protect and defend people who are vulnerable looks like a sign that you are actually cleaning the well !
And speaking about being genuinely vulnerable and not really vulnerable...I think we are all genuinely vulnerable in our own way. And strong in our own way. I tend to think everyone needs a safe place and some challenges. And then the ideal is to find the best combination that would make you grow without constantly feeling stressed. I didn't find this perfect balance for myself, so I suppose it would be even harder to find it for others.
The simpler explanation is that Te is a proactive disgust complex, cleaning up impurities, whereas Fi is a reactive disgust complex, avoiding what’s not pure.
Fi seems to work like a filter. Or like a sieve. So, it only permits what is considered pure and it keeps out what is not considered pure. It separates the wheat from the chaff.
But I think Te is doing more than cleaning these impurities in a proactive way. It does go out and fight against what is perceived as impure ! But it also arranges things in a way that helps prevent further corruption. And it helps us articulate thoughts ! Which can serve in fighting against impurity, but also in many other endeavors.
I think if we would connect these complexes with functions, disgust would go with Fi and anger with Te. This is a hypothesis, I know you see things differently. But just look at the Te leads we have in the database. When they are talking and doing their Te moves, don't they look just a little bit angry? 🙂 Or at least annoyed? 🙂 Outraged? They can also be disgusted but I don't think this is their prevalent state.
So, I think Te's engines are working rather on anger than on disgust but this is just an idea. To be explored/discussed.
When physically assaulted, I felt no need to defend myself, yet when I saw someone else being attacked I threw myself between them
This is similar to my experience. I find it hard to defend myself and much easier to defend others.
Yes, more anger is coming out of Je leads than out of Ji leads. It's the same for disgust; watch Ben Shapiro, for example, and you'll notice how often he talks about how disgusting things are. You already agreed with the shield metaphor: Te protects by building boundaries (walls).
Don't compare unseelie Te with adaptive Fe. Directive Fe leads show even more aggression than unseelie Te leads, as you can read under the heading "Violence" in the wiki.
I didn't really think that anger would necessarily lead to violence but you do have a point.
I also think about some situations and actions in these exact terms - they disgust me. But usually when I am trying to get into Te mode I think I rather try to become just a little bit angry/annoyed...not to the level of becoming violent, of course... but being just a little angry seems to make me express myself better. :))
Which I noticed in other Fi-Te users too. They become more articulate (though sarcastic) when they are angry.
So, you think Te and Fi are both connected to a disgust complex...Can you develop this idea a bit?
Yes, I had to learn to make myself angry as well (especially as a teacher)! To avoid shadow functions, CT moves to Je whatever is shared by Fe and Te; so, you could call assertiveness Je-mode. I'd even call it forcing Fe, and it helped me so much in my relationships (balancing give and take).
"Can you develop this idea a bit?"
Virtues seemed so arbitrary to me until I found out they're about cultivating emotional control. The four classic virtues are Temperance (controlled pain), Prudence (controlled fear), Fortitude (controlled anger), and Justice (controlled disgust).
For me, Temperance comes easy (I don't even turn on a heater when it's freezing) yet Prudence is challenging (I worried often about what could be). I neglected Fortitude for long, yet after I learned to give it attention it's only a minor annoyance (testosterone supported, though). Cultivating Justice, on the other hand, feels so much more relevant (and learning to forgive literally saved my life).
Others have different struggles; so, personality does affect emotional control. Aristotle famously defined virtue as between the vice of too much and too little. Too much requires Reaction whereas too little requires Proaction: the fundamental personality division according to Jung. I remember Jung said that his divisions correspond to some scientific concept but he didn't want to reveal what. If that is emotion, I understand why he didn't want to reveal it, as people think they know their own emotions.
Whether or not you consider the structure to correspond to CT categories, it helps you tolerate the emotional quirks of others. Now I can tolerate complaints about suffering (which I couldn't stand before). Now I understand why others have so little patience with my worries. Now, I no longer have contempt for angry people. And now I can finally accept my own moral imperfection.
Proactive- and reactive disgust complexes:
Airways closed for germs / immunity / orderliness / contracts / property
Including the dirty / passionate kissing / naked truth / humility / virtue
Hey all, I'm late to the chat but thanks for the prompter @Animal
So as a Te lead, I'm with @Bera on the topic of anger vs disgust for Te, but I'll detail it out a little more below.
“I picture my Te like a machine”. - Yes, this is how I sense my Te as well. I’m new to CT so I’m still learning about it all, but in a nutshell I used to identify as ENFP due to my developed NeFi and didn’t realise until my CT assessment (thank you @Auburn!) that my Te is a lot more prominent and ‘in command’ than I thought. I always knew my Te was ‘in constant use’ but I never really thought it was in charge so to speak. I feel like leading with Te is more just the way I ‘organise’ (Te) the random findings (Ne) that I filtered through the sieve of purity (Fi). All of which I observe with a child’s or alien’s naive, curious and explorative eyes (Si). Kind of like a magnifying glass looking at the texture, details, giving it a sniff and a lick, using all my senses to get a ‘proper/foundational/structural idea’ of what it is I’m exploring/experiencing/viewing/interacting and interlacing with etc.
“Fi seems to work like a filter” - yes, it’s exactly how I experience it. It’s a purity filter.
“But I think Te is doing more than cleaning these impurities in a proactive way. It does go out and fight against what is perceived as impure! But it also arranges things in a way that helps prevent further corruption. And it helps us articulate thoughts ! Which can serve in fighting against impurity, but also in many other endeavors.” Yes yes and yes. This is exactly how my viewing glass works. I often refer to myself as an ‘interpreter’ for this reason, because I don’t just filter information for purity but I also find ways to articulate it more aptly and into context. I’m constantly challenging the status quo in order to redefine what we think is the accepted/the norm/the ideal and all-day-long I fight against stereotyping too to prevent further corruption of ideas (and the systems that ‘organise’ ideas).
“So, I think Te’s engines are working rather on anger than on disgust but this is just an idea. To be explored/discussed.” I’m still not yet sure what is implied by the ‘disgust’ theme on this thread, but I can tell you with certainty that I relate much more to anger than disgust. My judgement has an anchor in equality/balance/harmony and so when I see people being taken advantage of I act/react out of anger rather than disgust. In fact, disgust is not something I tend to feel often in the psychological sense, it’s more common for me on a sensory level (smells, tastes disharmonious imagery etc). Anger on the other hand is a big underlying theme in my Te’s reactiveness. I’m generally quite withdrawn, but can burst into livid ninja-warrior ready-for-battle flames at the sight of corruption and abuse/advantage-taking - similar to what @Animal mentioned about protecting the less able to protect themselves. My 'disgust' style CT ‘facial expressions’ have more of an ‘I’m confused/stranged/weirded out’ internalised counterpoint as opposed to any sort of feelings of sickening/disgust. So yeah for me my feelings of repulse are more of an 'it makes me mad' stance than an 'it makes me sick' stance...
Can someone please tell me how to tag people in my comment? I've tried up above using @ sign in front of the name but they didn't convert to actual tags... Thank you!
@gabriellawinters Thanks for your feedback! Anger is at least a stronger motivator than disgust.
That makes the emotional complex approach not intuitive enough; so, I'll stick to my objective structure instead. Hence, I've simplified and rewritten my theorethical justification post: Pe/Pi/Ji/Je correspond to Big Five clusters.
PS. You can tag people by using their username, which you can extract out of their profile link (cognitivetype.com/members/gabriellawinters). So, just edit your post to replace the capital letters after the @ sign with small letters 🙂
Ah awesome thanks for the tip on the lower case letters @sander !
I'm glad my thoughts were helpful, not sure I understand what you mean by "That makes the emotional complex approach not intuitive enough" but I'll have a read of the other thread now to see what else you've written there. I'm quite new to these CT concepts and terminologies so I might also just be a bit slow.
Also, as a side note, I think disgust is something that people might define in many different ways, so there's a possibility for that to be the motivator, I just felt like we'd need a better word/expression for it because at least for me, disgust in itself is not as relatable a word basically (at least not 'largely'). I'm not an angry person either by the way, it's just that when I see injustice for instance, I feel maddened. Which I link to anger more than I link to disgust but obviously both are relevant for it and there might be a better expression than the both of them...
As someone who has both Se and Te developed, I find this topic of anger vs disgust interesting. I think similar to what Gabriella said, I also relate more to anger, although I definitely have my moments of disgust. I am usually disgusted by what I perceive to be unfair in my environment, and then lash out instinctively and viscerally by shouting and verbally attacking the person (or at least desiring to do so, I usually only show my anger to family members or strangers in rare cases). Once I remember there was a really rude lady at a book store telling me and my friend to get out for no apparent reason. I became so enraged that I screamed F YOU, which was completely out of character for me. I couldn't believe my own anger and assertiveness, it terrified me.
Even though my Te is developed, I have trouble with it when it comes to the anger part, because I cannot always revise what I want to say before it comes out like hot lava or like an avalanche. I have however learned to refrain from making comments on social media unless I really feel like it is deserved or necessary. Still learning when to wield my sword and shield and when to sheathe it.
I also think a person's emotional attitude plays a huge role in situations like these. Even though I can be very objective and logical when using Te in an argument, it is almost always emotionally infused, and I think this may be because of my Seelie nature. There is always an Fi agenda behind my Te I've noticed.
I also think a person’s emotional attitude plays a huge role in situations like these. Even though I can be very objective and logical when using Te in an argument, it is almost always emotionally infused, and I think this may be because of my Seelie nature. There is always an Fi agenda behind my Te I’ve noticed.
Hey, I used to say this too. But it changed. I can now have a purely Te agenda. Though my Te isn't conscious. I can just want to be honest and say it like it is for the sake of it and I admire this in others and would like to implement it more and make it a stronger habit.
I think we tend to see Te very much like a "mechanical" function, an engine, a machine...But Te has its values. That are simply Te values. And they are deeply admirable by themselves, I think. They aren't just admirable as a counterpart of Fi. Being a fighter or a doer or an achiever is admirable in itself. Not just as the protector of a princess in a tower.
Because if we turn it around, a princess in a tower is also valuable as herself, not just as the muse of a knight in shining armor.
Not sure this makes sense. Does it? :))
More love to Te ! <3
Dear Bera. Your right Te can stand on its own. I am able to make logical arguments for their own sake and sometimes I value self sufficiency and getting the job done over person feelings (not that Fi is necessarily personal feelings but you get my point). It's interesting to me that I have a developed Te because I don't always find it easy to relate to it purely. I was mistyped as Te-Ni by another assessment similar to CT (though it felt like they changed many aspects thereof) and I just knew I had to be a Pe-Fi type at least, being very right brained. I have kind of had an aversion to Te personally and I feel like I need to reconcile that part of my cognition to myself, because when it comes to Te type things like science, math and finance I never really enjoyed any of it. Only through hard work was I able to pass my accounting class, but I always hated mathematics simply because I failed at it. Perhaps if I had done better I would have valued it more
But I do think I am very honest and frank in my speech. Despite wanting to come across as polite I do have foot in mouth disease sometimes haha. But its usually a humorous experience.
Oh, I relate so well to everything you mentioned. I was also not that great at mathematics and other sciences and struggled with my accounting class.
Did you see this :
So, we need to integrate :
- Ontological Status
-Function Value & Purpose
Normally we'd say this applies to functions in the developmental process but maybe even with fully developed functions you could have integrated some of these aspects better than others.
"Fully developed" is in the end a metric that needed to be somehow established, the line needed to be drawn somewhere, but I think there are variations in integration above that level. The fact you are typed I-I- does not necessarily mean you can't integrate some aspects of Te better. We might integrate certain aspects of our functions throughout our entire lives.
The way that I prefer to understand this is actually related the most to introversion and extroversion.
Je and Ji have one fundamental difference to one another. Both of them demarcate boundaries between idealizations of objects (or in other words, they formulate ideal personal values), hence both can be prone to disgust or anger at the internal level. The manifestation is dependent on what impact their orientations have on their expressions. For Ji, the pillar against which one must hold themselves is the Self, or the internal aspect of the individual - action taken too proactively to attempt to change the external world (or express disgust about the external world) is restrained in the Ji conscious individual, because the fundamental assumption is that one needs to fix oneself before they try to fix others, and consciousness brings an acute awareness of the long pathway to perfection. Je on the other hand, is more oriented towards externally proactive organization, hence it is not the self that is necessarily the object of focus, but rather, the operation of things in general, including that outside the self, hence proactivity at suggestion for improvements (and activism). The same applies to Fe and Ti, hence the Fe-lead activists and Ti-lead social navigators. Disgust, insofar as it is related to Je, could be the manifestation of the viscerally buried internal feeling through the process of re-organization (where I've found Fi conscious people are less prone to manifesting disgust, because of greater awareness).
Disgust, insofar as it is related to Je, could be the manifestation of the viscerally buried internal feeling through the process of re-organization (where I’ve found Fi conscious people are less prone to manifesting disgust, because of greater awareness).
@safsom Could you describe an example of that? The thought initially seems right to me, but I want to be able to flesh it out.
For Ji, the pillar against which one must hold themselves is the Self, or the internal aspect of the individual – action taken too proactively to attempt to change the external world (or express disgust about the external world) is restrained in the Ji conscious individual, because the fundamental assumption is that one needs to fix oneself before they try to fix others, and consciousness brings an acute awareness of the long pathway to perfection. Je on the other hand, is more oriented towards externally proactive organization, hence it is not the self that is necessarily the object of focus, but rather, the operation of things in general, including that outside the self, hence proactivity at suggestion for improvements (and activism).
I agree, Saf, and you explained this very well.
We still feel disgust though, even if we manifest it less (hence my flirting with the idea that disgust signals may be rather Te signals than actual Fi signals might very well be wrong, I am not sure). One of the issues I struggled with the most while developing Fi was I started feeling disgusted by stuff I was neutral towards before. This included certain foods and especially meat. There was also an explosion of the specific unseelie Fi inner imagery. Nature seen as a devouring Mother, I guess. By the way, I know when I developed Fi, because I landed here being I--- and developed it under the influence of the numerous Ji leads and Ji conscious people who are active in the forum and chat. I dislike giving personal anecdotes as examples, since I am aware of the subjectivity involved, but I simply happen to know for sure the experience of an increase in disgust was simultaneous to Fi development. I remember joking at that time that a pregnant woman should NOT develop Fi during pregnancy. 🙂
I think with Fi it is mainly disgust directed at the Self though. As you see yourself as imperfect, flawed.
Whereas Te might experience and manifest disgust at the way things are organized in the "outer world". And maybe there is a larger manifestation of disgust in Te conscious people, since it would serve Te's purposes better than Fi's.
Hence...I went back full circle and I am curious if the disgust signals don't actually manifest more in high Te/Te conscious people. I specifically mean Fi 7 - Excessive Contempt. This is the disgust signal, no?
But you see, I say it would serve Te's purposes better than Fi's...I might be wrong here. Disgust may leak out like everything else we might feel.
I guess the question is - Do Fi leads/Fi conscious people who are not Te conscious tend to show many Excessive Contempt signals? Do Te leads/Te conscious people who don't have conscious Fi show them as much or more?
It looks to me like a signal that would naturally accompany sassy emphasis and sassy head shakes or shoulder shrugs rather than cluster together with Ji and Fi signals, but I haven't studied it thoroughly, it is just an impression.