Female Figures in Religion & Media

[Bera]

Very interesting, @animal !
In Christianity we don't have any feminine deity that embodies sensuality and I think this is a bit unhealthy. The Greeks and Romans both had goddesses of love. And also, they did not have a horrible split between motherhood and sexuality, Hera was a goddess of marriage, she had children and women prayed to her for an easy childbirth. But she was also Zeus'wife and they obviously had sex to produce their children. She also always got jealous, so she was into him. 🙂
Again, in Norse mythology I think Freyja was pretty balanced, she incorporates more than one aspect of femininity.
And I think many goddesses in different cultures have been both associated with fertility and with love. There is no split between them. I can't think of any goddess that was only a mother. It doesn't even make sense. :))
There were some virgin goddesses but at least they were not also mothers, they rather represented more studious and independent women, who did not really need a husband or children but would dedicate themselves to some higher intellectual purpose. Which makes more sense than being a virgin mother anyway.:))
I honestly resonate more with Mother Mary than with any other saint; I like her kindness. But I also think many religious people naturally tend to believe sex is a sin and women's main role is that of mother and given the cultural context, no wonder. :))
I don't really feel a need for a warrior goddess or for a goddess who is sexually bold. But I would like to be able to religiously think of a deity who has some romance stuff going on.
A friend once asked me if I thought it was ok if he prayed for sex :)))) And we both laughed but I couldn't really answer that question. I am not a believer but imagining I was, what would be the right answer? :))
At some point when I was really into astrology I thought to just make my own religion and pray to the Gods of the planets, you know? I can see balance there and every main aspect of life would be covered and I could also easily make my own rituals connected to astrological events. But while I was thinking about it, it was raining and I focused on the question if these gods were really there and there was a terrible, terrible thunder. 🙂 And I got scared. :))) And dropped the idea in a moment of Ni superstition. 🙂
And after that I became more and more of who I am today and at this point I already reached a level of doubt that would impede on building my own religion or on joining a movement like Wicca, that has more relatable deities.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I also don't resonate very well with Mary - as a virgin mother - though I do resonate with her general kind and warm energy... and I would have also preferred a sexually active feminine deity. :))

[Animal]

Before Aphrodite, there were other depictions of the "Goddess of Beauty." In the Sumerian Tablets, this was Innanna - somewhere between Te and Se.  She was later known as Ishtar.

She was the Goddess of War, and the way she went about warring was Se; in that she seduced men and tricked them at the last minute.  She was sent to rule over areas near India, which is why Goddesses like Kali were given importance there later, endowed with war prowess and trickster-like sexuality.  Kali embodies Se clearly.

 
In these early cultures, someone like me would have been seen as the Ultimate Feminine. 😉
Although it would be even better if I were an Sx 8 core instead of Sx 4 core, to fit that role. A little more war 😉

 
Over the years, the Western cultures took the Sx and the 8 out of female ideals, and turned them into Soc or Sp style Goddesses with pristine morals.  The ultimate Sp/So 2w1 saint is Jesus's mother who gave birth to the Messiah without having sex.

This is, by no means, a universal, timeless way of viewing an ideal woman.
Aphrodite is a cousin of Mary - in that Aphrodite is 2w3 So/Sx. She's a bit more free, mirthful and joyful in most depictions, but never warlike. Compared to Innanna and Ishtar, she is more modest - instead of squeezing her privates with a taunting smirk, she covers them with a coy smile.

 
Yet, Innanna was here first.
She was depicted as Sx/So 8w7.  Lusty, dangerous, strong, seductive, magnetic, ruthless.  Her  visceral desire was Se to the bone, and her style embodied the trickster, tricking and laughing at her prey.  There were major Te themes in "justice" and cunning tactics for war, and I might place her overall as Te > Se, but she was not Fe.
The meaning of Beauty changes over the centuries, just as the idea of "Good guy vs. Bad guy" changes over the centuries.  This is why @Auburn has a good point when he brings up Western culture valuing Fe, whereas other cultures (or people with specific values) might view it through the lens of unnecessary toil.
 

[Animal]

I honestly resonate more with Mother Mary than with any other saint; I like her kindness. But I also think many religious people naturally tend to believe sex is a sin and women’s main role is that of mother and given the cultural context, no wonder. :))
I don’t really feel a need for a warrior goddess or for a goddess who is sexually bold. But I would like to be able to religiously think of a deity who has some romance stuff going on.

Different women have different needs and proclivities. Personally, the lack of 'war' in female figures is a problem for me, though I also don't like most fake-warrior-goddesses that are portrayed in Superhero myths nowadays.
Basically our culture has two types of female heroes in Hollywood

• Helpless pretty princess who is won over by a guy who is chasing her. This man manages to get her attention through virtuosity and heroics even though he is average looking. Her role is being pretty, perfect, kind, inspiring and classy, but rejecting him until he individuates.
• Tough, man-like warrior Goddess who don't need no man. She is basically a man in womens' clothes - and by womens' clothes, I mean armor that barely covers her triple-D boobs.  Everyone wants her, but she is depicted with her boot on top of a guy's face and blood in her mouth. She really really don't need no man, don't you know?

 
Neither of these archetypes are remotely relatable. I want to follow a woman who individuates and also has a sex drive and.. gasp... feelings!  Like you know, sensitive vulnerable feelings for a guy.  A heart, a soul.
Where are the women who are strong and have their own interests, but ALSO obsess over men of their own choosing? (Much like men do in movies?)  Where are the women who have to work hard for their talents and virtues, and who win over beautiful men through virtuosity and individuation?  In what fictional story does the love of a man inspire a woman to improve herself - as in - her personal traits (unrelated to family & children)?
That has basically been the story of my life, but if I wrote it into a fiction story, nobody would relate or find it believable. 😛  I find that my mindset translates much better to a male character, and the men I'm into tend to translate better to women characters. I am not quite a tough, rugged, cold hearted warrior woman - as I'm too boy-crazy and romantic -- but I'm also not any kind of ingenue who can be chased and 'won over.' I know what and who I want. So basically this personal complexity of having my own desires and interests which are unrelated to having children, while also being romantic and strong willed, makes "fictional me" better off as a man.

[Faex]

In Christianity we don’t have any feminine deity that embodies sensuality and I think this is a bit unhealthy.

Interesting take, @bera. To be fair, Christianity doesn't have a masculine deity like that either. 🙂 Don't forget; Jesus himself, the central figure of Christianity, like his mother, was a virgin. Sure, he was not also a parent, but if you read the New Testament (Not apocryphal texts written long after his acquaintances were dead like the silliness about Mary Magdalene--sigh!) and patristics (the writings of the church fathers in the first 300 years of Christianity), you'll find the preference and valuing of virginity was perfectly gender-neutral. I don't think this has to do with just women being seen as non-sexual so much as a general valuing of 'purity' in the Christian sense. Sex was seen as natural and virginity was seen as kinda super-natural: transcending the ordinary almost.

[Faex]

Oh, I also love the Madonna, @bera. I developed a relationship with her that when I don't cultivate, my life feels very dry and lonely. Catholics, and I think Orthodox too, see Mary as a refuge: a mother who cannot turn away those who suffer or even have really messed up. The miracles attributed to her are countless and many are astonishing. And there are countless stories of saints down the ages turning to her in desperation/trouble etc, and finding her ready help and consolation.
She also has a very specific and different 'feel' to her in prayer. Her presence doesn't feel like Jesus or any members of the Godhead, but also none of the saints either. It's quite unique and unmistakable once you've felt it, so that you can actually have a sense of being 'near' or 'far' from her, almost. I'd say it's a certain quality of mercy or the personification/concentration of compassion. I think it's very Fi almost, like super, duper Fi.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Catholic-Orthodox-Our-Lady-Of-Mercy-Blessed-Virgin-Mary-Mother-of-God-Icon-WOW-/201205986808
The general attitude towards her by these Christians is guaranteed help when in trouble. For example, one of the most famous Marian prayers is the Memorare. It says:

REMEMBER, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to you I come; before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy hear and answer me.
Amen.

I find her equivalent in the East to be Guan Yin- the Bodhisattva of Compassion, also known as the goddess of mercy.
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.nZKrIWlfLXmSiYwnIhVWngHaJD
I was quite struck with her when I entered a temple in Shanghai and got into one of her shrines that was arranged in exactly the same way many chapels are, (With Mary as Queen or Queen mother, carrying little King Jesus, surrounded by tens or hundreds of angels and saints): the familiarity was palpable. I felt like I knew her. The way she was presented was all too familiar and if I didn't know better, that day I might've thought I'd gotten into a Chinese Catholic chapel dedicated to the Virgin. This is what is said of Guan Yin:

In Chinese Buddhism, Guan Yin is synonymous with the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara, the pinnacle of mercy, compassion, kindness and love.

I'd say that's exactly how Mary is seen in Apostolic Christianity.
Interestingly, Guan Yin is not a virgin. 🙂 But she serves the same role for many Buddhists that Mary does for Apostolic Christians IMO. I'm usually weary of taking artifacts of other religions but I took a picture of her that I still have in my wallet!:-) I almost felt like it was just a different version of the Madonna, and Catholics depict the Madonna a thousand different ways anyways, so it didn't feel that off.
PS// Hey! How do you post pictures? I thought my two links above would show up as pics.

[Bera]

@animal - oh, yes, these are the types of women portrayed by the media. 🙂 The problem is guys want the first type you mentioned.
I think they are looking for this type because if a woman looks like a "helpless princess" lol - she seems easier to control and less likely to run away with someone else or to become aggressive and dangerous. And if she is reserved and not immediately jumping on the guy 🙂 his general impression will be that she is also being reserved with every other guy, so she would look loyal and pure and seem like someone who could inspire him to become someone better, someone who would deserve her.
Of course this view is not necessarily reflective of reality. Someone dependent and frail can develop remarkable manipulative skills. And sometimes women are just playing reserved to get a guy and at the same time go out with lots and lots of other guys. I think if a woman is very reserved - this is a red flag of her being very good at playing the game. Someone truly "pure", I mean, someone who just loved the guy, would tend to fall easier and wholeheartedly.
But because the competition 🙂 is basically led by reserved women, chaotic Pe leads like me may also use some of the general  "reserved" strategy despite totally loving someone. And then the whole thing is a bit confusing and it is hard to discern real feelings from the game.
Hey, I have my own interests, sex drive and feelings. <3
Oh, about stories in which you have a guy inspire a woman to improve herself. I think My Fair Lady would be a good example. Though it's a bit different from what you were thinking about. :)))
I think The Master and Margarita is pretty much also about this - but that book is extremely Se...and I can't remember Margarita's evolution that well, I just remember her at Satan's ball, naked and wearing a necklace with a pendant in the form of a poodle and that was getting heavier and heavier and heavier throughout the night. 🙂 And after that, when the ball ends and she could have a wish, she wishes for a woman at the ball to be forgiven for her sin of killing her baby. And then she gets granted a second wish and wishes to be reunited with the Master.
Hm, what else is there? There are really not so many examples I can think of. We should think of artistically inclined women, maybe? Because they would need inspiration?
Oh, of course ! And it's all over the media. A Star is Born is a story about a woman who is inspired by a man and who develops under his influence. And though they are both talented, the movie is her story, not his. But they are somehow both each other's muse, you know?:)
@fae - I will come back later because I am at work and you mentioned a lot of very interesting points and I can't answer all of them now. For posting pictures you use insert - image and pick the image. It will help to set the dimensions 500 - 500.
 

[Faex]

It's not exact but I think Wonder Woman is kind of an example of the woman Animal seeks to see, in a limited way. She's still beautiful though, lol. But I mean she starts out with a certain attitude about humanity and men but is inspired to become an empathic hero led by love by her beloved Steve. She's also kind of a weird mix of both women Animal described. She's an innocent, wild-eyed, soft-hearted warrior in the new world who falls in love readily but is also a fierce 'manly' fighter.

[Animal]

@faerie
I don't mind if she's beautiful!
I have a strong belief that if beauty is portrayed as a type of 'power' or virtue that you can earn through workouts and style, then it's different. So if it is paired with certain types of characters, I like it. Lord knows I'll work to hell and back for the sake of my own appearance, if I am able, but sometimes (like now) I'm just too sick to do so. Beauty is an achievement; not JUST a gift. Though of course, we all start out from different places. But God-given beauty fades quickly, whereas the kind you work for, is yours to keep.
So when I see a strong, tough woman who is also beautiful, I imagine that she went to the gym or did some actual work to make herself that way. What I hate is the common portrayal of helpless little princesses who don't lift a finger, as having perfect toned bodies "just because." Of course, it can happen in real life this way; it's just that, it bores me. It doesn't turn me on to the character, or make me like her or relate to her.
I'll check her out. I'm actually kind of media stupid - so when I speak of the type of women I see, it's more 'trends' - since I really don't watch that much media. But I heard the Israeli actress got a lot of backlash from Jew-hating SJW's, so I have to admit that sparked my interest, since I've been the subject of hate from those type of people all my life too, as a Jew. 😀

[Animal]

@bera

@animal – oh, yes, these are the types of women portrayed by the media.   The problem is guys want the first type you mentioned.

Hehe. I don't know about that. I've never had much trouble getting guys to want me. 😉
It just depends on what you consider 'guys.'  Jocks who need some helpless little thing to protect so they can feel manly?  Well, sure, guys like that might be attractive to many women and that's great for them! I  have a little bit of white-knight in me, so I can even relate to these guys on some level. But, dating them? Yeesh! Why would I? Give me a beautiful, stylish genius any day of the week. Those are the guys who not only inspire me, but also tend to like tougher women.
Regarding the rest of your post - I agree. There's no dichotomy where a pretty, sweet, romantic woman can't ALSO be strong and independent.
There are women that are more feminine and homey, and also women who are princessy, who are strong in their own way. There are also tough women that are jerks and just want to make some noise and hate on men and other women. I can't stand this - I view it as weakness. There are many different ways to be a strong person, man or woman.
So when I talk about what I want to see in media, there's two sides to it: I want it to be realistic and also I hope for female characters that are really relatable for me.
There are great female characters out there, like Danaerys, who have both soft-heartedness and also personal strength; but she goes about it in a way that's very different from me, so while I really respect and appreciate her character, I don't "relate" that deeply.  Arya Stark is closer to someone I'd relate to; she's a 846 or 486.... but she's  a bit too Sp-dominant and "I don't need no man" ... not romantic enough.  I also find Sansa Stark to be an excellent, dimensional character for example. I love the way she starts out all boy crazy and then learns to manipulate men. I love all of it really.
As long as the characters aren't flat, I don't mind if they're beautiful, womanly, princessy -- I can love women like this irl as well. But I just don't see a character out there who is quite balanced the way I personally am.

[Faex]

But I heard the Israeli actress got a lot of backlash from Jew-hating SJW’s, so I have to admit that sparked my interest, since I’ve been the subject of hate from those type of people all my life too, as a Jew.

Jews sure are in a strange position in this world; hated by Alt-righters and SJWs alike. Yes, I heard about Gal Gaddot's troubles, though I heard about some Muslim people (and even countries) rejecting the film merely because the star was Israeli, which I thought was strange.
Poor Gal! She first dealt with hate from Wonder Woman fans because they didn't think she looked like Wonder Woman (her tiny boobies and slender physique); with American xenophobic fans who didn't want Wonder Woman talking with a non-American, Mediterranean accent (despite the Amazons being literally Mediterranean!); and then she dealt with some angry Incel types hating on the film for being (allegedly) feminazi or too 'women power'; then finally she had to handle Jew-haters. Give the lady a break, lol! No harm done though, her film did very well despite the boycots.

[Animal]

Jews sure are in a strange position in this world; hated by Alt-righters and SJWs alike. Yes, I heard about Gal Gaddot’s troubles, though I heard about some Muslim people (and even countries) rejecting the film merely because the star was Israeli, which I thought was strange.

You can really judge a group by how they treat the Jews.  The Jews are the canary in the colemine. "First they came for the Jews...."
This is one of many reasons why I don't trust SJWs or any type of  leftists nowadays. I've been on the receiving end of institutionalized racism in leftist schools all my life. These are not really equality rights activists. It's all talk.  It's all about power.  Letting more immigrants into the country means that they buy more leftist votes. That's it. They don't really care about racism and discrimination one tiny bit. It's not like they've actually made progress with black issues while in office either. The black population is starting to notice that Trump's policies have actually served them better. Not that Trump is any kind of saint, but the left does nothing to solve the real issues that minorities face, like unemployment and police brutality. For the left right now, it's all talking points for the sake of getting votes.  The Right says all the wrong things, but at least they make more efficient policies. Anyway, I digress.

Poor Gal! She first dealt with hate from Wonder Woman fans because they didn’t think she looked like Wonder Woman (her tiny boobies and slender physique); with American xenophobic fans who didn’t want Wonder Woman talking with a non-American, Mediterranean accent (despite the Amazons being literally Mediterranean!); and then she dealt with some angry Incel types hating on the film for being (allegedly) feminazi or too ‘women power’; then finally she had to handle Jew-haters. Give the lady a break, lol! No harm done though, her film did very well despite the boycots.

I can guarantee that most of the backlash on that list was related to her being Jewish, even if they veiled it thinly behind other insults.

[Bera]

@animal - I was talking about love, not about attraction, I guess.
Oh, I didn't think about jocks. I was just saying what I think I see generally. Actually me and one of my friends (also gamma I think) have this particular subject of gossip and I regret mentioning it here but there is a gossipy side of gammas, I guess, and we have the tendency to just bluntly say what we are thinking. So, we always wonder why the hell some of the guys we like always go for helpless princesses. You know, the type who says "I can't open this bottle, can you open it for me, please?" Or "I can't go out alone in the dark, can you please come with me?" (she never took the train alone, she hated being on her own etc) Now, my friend has conscious Te, I think, and she basically believes these girls are simply put, fake. Faking it. She doesn't believe they can be that vulnerable and passive, she believes they are doing it to get attention. I believe they are truly like that and are specifically preferred by the majority of guys for being this way. It's classically feminine in a way, though we get an ugh feeling when we see it. :))
I think they are strong in their own way, yes, I was not being critical, just stating what I think are the facts.
And when I mentioned the word "competition", I hope this didn't make you think of hate. 🙂 I was really thinking about it like you would think about the stock market :))) About the processes that are happening in a certain field and possible reasons.
I think the media actually does reflect real life pretty well. But you are an exceptional person ! Not trying to flatter you but you are. 🙂
I personally mostly resonate with Sansa - from the women in GoT. I also loved Margaery and I am sorry she died.  I am not like her but I thought she was depicted realistically and there are some things to be learned from her. I saw her being taken as an example of soft persuasion on hm...Charisma on Command. :)) Very realistic and opportunistic but still likable and relatable. I regret I didn't watch The Tudors, Natalie Dormer must have played Anne Boleyn very well too.
I have to run somewhere and I'm late, I will come back later. 🙂

[Juan E. Sandoval]

(Thread split, as it's once again not about harry potter. )
Just to butt in here briefly -- I'm inclined to agree with Bera here that the female portrayal isn't entirely unrealistic.

@animal - If I may make some commentary regarding your specific case, I have seen many Te-conscious woman taking a similar issues (in various iterations) to the way women are portrayed. For example, Rebecca Watson, Joy Behar, Tina Fey, Germaine Greer - etc. See this collage made in this post.

Spoiler

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They often complain about women being painted as helpless in the media, dislike the idea of the double-standards, and even dislike their own women counterparts who give into, or play along with, what they see as a cultural narrative and indoctrination (or learned female helplessness).
But I have some counter-points to make about this. Firstly by pointing to someone who is also Te+Se that makes strong cases against her own initial points, having grown out of this mindset: TeNi l-ll Camile Paglia

Spoiler

[collapse]

Google "Camille Paglia quotes" and you'll see a very interesting viewpoint. She says that despite having started out as someone inordinately tenacious (by temperament/type) for her gender, even she had to eventually concede to the realities of her gender and the women-ness that she is a part of.
She has said in some interviews that she is an outlier, and how she understands that women do have a nature that is more affected, reactive, yin, responsive and all those things which are perhaps exaggerated in some media (as all things are iconized in life). In my estimation, it's simply an aspect of art to emblemize qualities and so "epitmization" is a normal feature of how we grasp reality. Women-ness is epitomized also, but that is nothing to take direct offense over.
That said, I think that even a "realistic" (average) women is not necessarily one reflected in you, specifically. Again, I tend to think you frame things too heavily by using yourself as the central subject and sample. I don't think women at large would be so swift to object to depictions of women that fall short of the self-empowerment granted to Daenerys or Gal Gadot figures. I see such strong women as not reflecting the majority of their gender.
I'm not saying women are always helpless (they're not). And I'm not saying there aren't problems in the media. But what I am saying is that the "feminine" depiction is generally true and ancient, despite the fact that some women don't embody it. Just as some men (i.e. FiNe men) don't embody the epitome of male-ness. This naturally causes those outliers to rebel against the mold that is being laid over them, and this is what I see with many Te women. And it's understandable. But I don't think the answer is for the men or women outliers to try to make claims about the majority, in reflection of their own preferences. Or to paint the media as being skewed for not reflecting their preferences.

[Bera]

Aaaand I'm back.
@fae - I will return to what you said. You are right ! Christianity also does not have a masculine deity who is...sexually active. 🙂 Actually...God, the Christian God, is based on the the God of the Jews. And what is really creative and innovative (and most probably also closer to the truth) about their religion is that their God is formless. This is a major thing and appears in the 10 commandments :
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is]in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them, for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God (..,)
The main idea is that it is wrong, it is a SIN to make an idol of God and worship it. God should not be seen as a human-like being. Or as anything material, as any image or shape.
So, it makes sense that God could not be depicted like a sexual creature...and then, going further, neither could his son, though he is seen as a sort of embodiment of God in the world. But as embodied as he was, him having sex and suffering because of a woman and having children...would not have fit in very well in this narrative. 🙂
The issue with this is that, at least in my opinion, people find it easier to pray to figures that are basically close to archetypes. God as the formless behind all forms is wonderful to contemplate by someone like @faeruss 🙂 - by someone who is into philosophy, but when you want to emotionally connect to the divine, you need an image to make this connection possible.
And this is why I think we also have saints. And angels. I...don't want to take an atheistic position. I can't say saints and angels don't exist. I think these energies and this imagery exists for sure in our minds and connecting to it does elevate us spiritually. Even if objectively there are no winged beings following us from the clouds. 🙂
And this is probably where  Mary is also coming from. From the Mother Archetype.
Now, about virginity - indeed I think it was admired like something transcending the material and ordinary life and we see this in many religions.
But maybe it was also a representation of purity of mind or purity of heart. Not necessarily about literal virginity. I mean, symbolically, a child can be seen as an act of creation and more exactly like the creation of yourself. And this can only happen when you attained perfect purity of mind, right? Then, if we look at the story as just symbolic, it would make perfect sense for Mary to be a Virgin and a Mother.
Another thing ! My life also feels dry and lonely when I feel out of connection with the divine. And right now my connection is pretty much hm...submerged? (I don't mean it in the CT way 🙂 ) It is there but I consciously reject it most of the times. And it is because I am very afraid to discover that it...isn't really there. That God actually does not exist. I prefer to live in a state of doubt than to know this for sure.
Regarding how Mary is seen by the Orthodox and Catholic, I agree. I am a Catholic. Both Catholic and Orthodox see her as their refuge. And pray to her as often as they would pray to God. In my church basically there are two big statues - one of Mother Mary and one of Jesus, she is on the left and he is on the right; she is dressed in blue and white and he is dressed in red and after mass people go to either of them but mostly I think they go to her.
Also, I know the energy you are talking about !!! I felt it. Many, many times. I come from a religious background and used to be a believer. I still care about these issues immensely though I can't bring myself to truly believe again, which is of course a type of spiritual torment, in a way.
I also think Guan Yin is her equivalent, I noticed that when I saw some depictions of her on the internet (you are so lucky to have visited Shanghai !!!). But I don't know much about her.
Now I remebered metta meditation...but it apparently is not connected to her, it's a different tradition. Anyway, I think it is in line with her energy. 🙂 I'm thinking about posting a song, hm, in the end it's religious and about loving kindness, I think it is related to the subject but again, it's not connected to Guan Yin, I just feel it's a similar energy.

And you can try this - sending love to all directions and to everyone ! And the wonderful thing is you can really feel it, as if your heart chakra really existed and opened (not sure if this is actually happening but it does feel like it !)
 
 
 

[Bera]

@Auburn, I saw your post now and I will read it and return, I was already writing about something completely different, sorry. 🙂

[Bera]

Returning to the talk about accurate or less accurate depictions of women in the media...I am somewhere in the middle of this...femininity spectrum. :)) So, I make my own money and didn't ever depend on any guy for anything. But I am obviously acting like a reviser with guys, so, they take most of the decisions and I am not into control or into somehow demonstrating I am stronger than a man. I would not date a man if I saw myself as stronger than him. I wouldn't see the point in it. But strong is a very broad word with many meanings.
The thing is, I love characters like Daenerys but if I said I resonate with her I would be blatantly lying. I would literally faint if I saw a dragon. :)) No, really. Now that would be a situation I could not handle and I would need some knight in shining armor to save me. :)) There are situations in which I am actually helpless too. Not that many but still. 🙂
So, I think it's wonderful GoT has a variety of female characters that depict different types of women.

[Septimus Rosa Chalier]

Maybe is it right to say, as @bera and @auburn did, that these (monolithic) female and male portrayals are not statistically wrong, even if they are often (depressingly) simplifying...
But i do think the massive cultural propagation of these clichés can be damaging for people whose natural inclination is different and who can feel pressure to conform to these stereotypes… (Also, it might have a coercive impact on courting behaviours and mating selection, but i don't know to what extent…) In relation to the individuation process, social pressure is obviously not a negligible (antagonistic) factor, and it can hinder the acceptance of one's desires/way of being.
So, anyway, @animal, i think it's good to hear a dissident voice about that matter, and let people (of both sexes) know that they shouldn't feel the need to embody a superficial/fake persona to please society in general and a phantasmatic and stereotypical lover in particular.
(PS: I'm responding to both ''Attraction & the Lies About it in the Media'' and ''Female Figures in Religion & Media'' because the topics treated (or at least the messages they contain) seem to overlap and i thought they were only one thread – Ji grimacing. Please everyone, have a compassionate thought for @auburn, who must deal on a daily basis with Pe tentacular spreading).

[Animal]

@auburn
First of all I'm so sorry for the diverging topics. This whole post began with my post about Goddesses, though - and that one is still in the Harry Potter thread.
I had realized that the topic changed & started my own thread instead of responding on Harry Potter,  here.

Attraction & the Lies About it in the Media

 
 
Is it possible to merge this thread with that?  I just moved the Goddess comment myself, which began this whole conversation.  If you can add this thread to the end of that one, it might remove some confusion. I can change it to your title, which is much better.
If not, let me know.
I'll be more cautious in the future about diverging topics so I don't have to put you through this. :/
 

[Animal]

@auburn also -
If you read through my original post which began this conversation, along with reading the comments I have made - I have not once claimed that women like me were the majority. What I claimed was that there's a history of powerful Goddesses which are left out of Western Culture; that portrayals of the women in the Bible are much different than the portrayal of Goddesses in prior cultures which included combinations of sexuality, sensuality and war. With that being said, we can extrapolate and theorize about how this  highly specific portrayal of female Goddess - as "Mother Mary" as opposed to Innanna for example - may have affected the way women are portrayed in the media. Not to mention, how women shape themselves in an effort to fit that ideal.
But I have also stated over and over that unlike some of the Te women you posted, I have nothing against women who primarily identify as nurturing-family figures.
I definitely do not think I'm average.  I know that I'm weird, exceptional and on the wrong planet. That's why my project is called Erosian Exile.
I think sometimes, I have two points:

• An objective observation based on experience
• A subjective observation about myself

And I don't organize my points as well as a J lead would, so then some people may read them and think that I'm posing 'myself' as some kind of average.  But I'm not. When I make comments about women, cultures and Goddesses, I'm talking about many people that I've met; many reactions I've seen to these movies; ideas about history and culture.  Then I often venture to share my own 'personal' response, as well.
To quote one of my posts which did make its way into this thread:

Regarding the rest of your post – I agree. There’s no dichotomy where a pretty, sweet, romantic woman can’t ALSO be strong and independent.
There are women that are more feminine and homey, and also women who are princessy, who are strong in their own way. There are also tough women that are jerks and just want to make some noise and hate on men and other women. I can’t stand this – I view it as weakness. There are many different ways to be a strong person, man or woman.
So when I talk about what I want to see in media, there’s two sides to it: I want it to be realistic and also I hope for female characters that are really relatable for me.

Now if we're talking nurturing figures, that's one thing. I too have strong nurturing energy.
If we're talking the pretty, desirable, submissive role where the woman has no heroic arc of her own, and serves only to attract a man and inspire him to individuate:
My mother doesn't fit it. My cousins and aunts don't fit. My friends don't fit.  I can think of about five people I've ever known who fit that role well, and those women were depressed and/or anorexic. In one case, once she got better she became a gym coach with a lot of her own personality and stopped being so submissive.
This is a separate point from me being an average.  The point here is that these characters simply aren't human.  I've mentioned many times that in GOT, there are many 'human' female characters who are multi-dimensional, not to mention  male characters. I find it compelling and realistic, even though none of the female characters are "exactly my archetype."

[Septimus Rosa Chalier]

(Btw, @animal, my remark was meant to be untastefully humorous (to get everything clear). Pe may be all over the map, but Ji can come close to an Obsessive Classification Disorder. The Virginia Woolf quote i posted somewhere could be used against me (and was more or less supposed to describe - at that time - some of Ji's flaws).)

[Animal]

@auburn @bera @septimus-chalier - Allow me to draw an analogy.
In the thread where we were arguing about Fe myths, Auburn wrote that Fe types tend to 'set the tone' for the narrative.  This was his post:

Yes but I think this is due to a reverse engineering. For example, I see how Campbell tried to generalize his myth, although he clearly has a sense of what the “most pure” representation is as he quotes Gautama Buddha, Moses, and Christ as iconic examples of it.
So I think he was still staring out with the Fe Hero myth as a template, and then “softening it” a bit, to accommodate other variants. But the priority is still baked into the structure.
In reality, this shouldn’t surprise us. If we do the math, Beta NF’s would be the ones to articulate (linguistic moral expression) the NF archetypal domain the most naturally. Ni+Fe conductors paving the way in our collective mythology seems precisely what we’d expect, and with it would also come their ‘spin’ on it –which would have to be filtered out as their initial trailblazing is condensed into a more proper universal understanding.

 
So, if there is truth to this - wouldn't it stand to reason that Beta NFs - or other Fe types - are the ones that articulate the archetypal domain for WOMEN as well? Wouldn't they get to define what "feminine" means?
If so, their specific portrayal of feminine archetypes may influence culture; thus causing many women to strive to fit that mold, or even to believe that they fit that mold, when in fact, the same woman might have fit a completely different mold in a different culture.
If this can be true for mythological narratives, then this type of culture-wide brainwashing can also be true for 'shaping' what women (and men) need to be like, in order to be loved or accepted.
But that doesn't mean that "the average woman" actually feels submissive deep down.  Then again, if she submits to the narrative, I suppose it's an act of submission. 😉
Perhaps we could give those people any mold, and they would either comply or rebel against it directly. Perhaps, that's why we have the two common archetypes of 'sweet submissive princess/mother who lives entirely for her man & children' and 'warrior bitch who don't need no man.'  If the "norm" was presented as something else, then the dichotomy might be something completely different, and then people would say "that's just what the average person is like."  But is it really, or is it just the story that caught on right now?
_________
For those who think this is about me, I will clarify: where do I fit into this?
I do understand that most people - men, and women - are more submissive than I am, especially when it comes to defining who they are on their own terms. For me, I'd rather die than live someone else's story, but many people don't even know what their own story is, so they just comply  with - or rebel against - the current narrative.  And for them, this is honest and real.
I'm not putting them down, just acknowledging the way things are.  If most people didn't submit to the cultural narrative, we would have chaos.  And that's why the Trickster role is chaotic. 😉
My Ji & Je are highly developed, so I am consistent with myself. But being Se first, Te second, and 4w3 8w7 6w5 Sx/So,  I embody many elements that constitute "marching to the beat of my own drum."  I am not rebellious - I feel no need to push against the grain - because the grain doesn't have much sway on me in the first place.
My 'marching to my own drum' character is actually quite prevalent in media, just not among women. Even in my own book I'm a man. I guess it's hard even for me to swallow my own archetype on a woman.   😀  And yet, here I am.
However, I'd never be crazy enough  to propose myself as an average. That said, my sense of not fitting into the role for women that is proposed by the media - seems to be 'average' among Te women.

[Animal]

@septimus-chalier
Haha it's ok, I totally got it!  I  just felt bad for causing so many thread splits.  I'm not annoyed at Auburn at all, but I was a little annoyed that my original post wasn't in this thread (which is entirely my own fault because I posted it in the Harry Potter thread) and thus my original point was lost, and people were responding to me as though I'd made a particular point which was nothing like what I originally said. I need to be more organized about starting new threads in the future. 🙂 Which I will.

[Animal]

@septimus-chalier

So, anyway, @animal, i think it’s good to hear a dissident voice about that matter, and let people (of both sexes) know that they shouldn’t feel the need to embody a superficial/fake persona to please society in general and a phantasmatic and stereotypical lover in particular.

Thank you <3
This is my point in bringing up "myself" as an example. I'm not encouraging anyone to be like me. Nor am I telling them not to.  I am simply allowing myself to be the dissident voice who says, "we don't all have to sing the same tune."
I don't have any love for dissonance. I like harmony, being part of a dance between several people etc; but I also acknowledge what my role is -  my role, in a song, is the bridge. I change the tune by inserting an argument which tends to be climactic, and then things resolve back down to a speed and tempo that everyone can sing along to, after having gone through a more tumultuous bridge 😉
I hope that my sharing about myself - as a very unique person with an extremely atypical life and character -  will inspire others to feel okay sharing who they are.  I hope it will show them, by example, that not everyone has to fit the same mold, and yet we can still sing together as one, with love in our hearts.

[Ivory]

There is no such thing as the average woman. Every woman will deviate from the Absolute Average, statistically speaking.
Creating media focused on the "Average Woman" creates mediocre content because as you aim to please the largest audience, you fail to satisfy any.
This has been a trend lately, and people are picking up on it (finally). Quality of story telling has decreased the last few years, exceptions non-withstanding.
The depiction of Womanhood falls in this category as well. And this ties into my post in the Attraction and Lies thread; the modern depiction of Womanhood is warped in order to sell more 'womanly' products. This did not exist the way it does now even a 100 years ago. More and more people are feeling left out as the greatest influencers are aiming more and more to affect the greatest audience. In other words; Quantity over Quality.
Irony!! As this 'quantity over quality' leaves out True Quantity in terms of Variation. Variation is a constant in human beings and should be honored by genuine story tellers.
Alas, marketers are not genuine story tellers.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

@animal - added the Goddess post to the beginning (I could have realized it belongs to the same chain of posts from the start, so sorry about that)
This is a very complex issue.
If I understand you (since it seems I keep misinterpreting), you say that you:

• Are aware of the diversity of women, and see yourself as one example and not the average
• Are in favor of all sorts of different women portrayals
• See the nurturing elements of womenhood in yourself also

But:

• Feel the mass media portrays women figures who are 'unrealistic' even to the 'average' women
• Are specifically against portrayals of a "pretty, desirable, submissive (...) woman [who has] no heroic arc of her own, and serves only to attract a man and inspire him to individuate"
• Feel strong women do exist in the media but that the cultural narrative is often polarized on the subject, treading women as flat characters in an individuation story of a man, or as warlike "i need no man" women, and you would like to see both elements integrated because:
• You see that ancient traditions converged sexuality, sensuality and war within the Female archetype, and:
• You see that the western (Fe) narrative has stripped their female goddesses (Mother Mary) of any such qualities, and that this has permeated through cultural thought and media to give women an untrue model to follow

I wonder if that sounds right?

[Author]

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