Female Figures in Religion & Media

[Animal]

@auburn
Yes! Thank you for summing up.. I really admire your organizational qualities. I write so many long posts and it would be so much easier if I could just organize the way you did, from the get-go... 😀
The only point there that I slightly disagree with is this:

"Are specifically against portrayals of a “pretty, desirable, submissive (…) woman [who has] no heroic arc of her own, and serves only to attract a man and inspire him to individuate”"

 
I'm definitely not against this. I just don't think it represents the average woman; nor would it resonate with most women I have ever met.  I feel it's overrepresented as a norm, and it is a false norm.
I have absolutely zero problem with this arc existing sometimes, nor do I have a problem with women-centered stories portraying men as side characters.  A story sometimes needs to focus on one character arc, portraying their lovers or friends as 'side points' to the main plot; and I have no problem with this.  I just don't appreciate the media representing this as the norm, or pushing it as a feminine ideal.
I agree with @ivory that this is connected to an attempt to sell products, though I also think there are other reasons to suppress "Sx energy" (as in transformation, passion, etc) for both genders - because it's "chaotic," disruptive to those in power etc. This is an  ongoing pattern that I imagine will come up in any culture throughout history.  But the 'Mother Mary' stuff pushes it to a very serious extreme in our own history.
The only way to react to such an extreme is through another extreme; thus we have "I don't need no man" sentiments, and oversexed, free-sex sentiments which are also over the top and unrealistic.  Realistically, women are more negatively affected (hormonally and chemically) by  random sex with strangers, than men.  So this reaction is not good for women either; nor is it true to their nature.  The extreme sides of this create a false polarity - "Dominant, Warlike Woman" vs. "Submissive, Sexless/Angelic Woman"  - neither side of which will make anyone happy.
 

[Animal]

I will say outright that I love all the characters in Game of Thrones, and the variety of characters that are portrayed. J.R.R. Martin is absolutely brilliant in his nuanced understanding of womens' issues, in my opinion. I wonder, has he been typed?  (Not that it's relevant per se, since any type can be brilliant and 'in tune,' but I'm wondering if I have some kind of function-bias toward his style of portraying humans as 'humans.')
To demonstrate the variety I can appreciate, I love all the following characters with a passion:

• Arya Stark. (Genuinely tough. Has to fight her own demons to become that way. Nothing is free.)
• Sansa Stark. (Boy-crazy; learns to manipulate men for her own gain, but still wants love.)
• Danaerys Targaryen. (Beautiful, learns to wield it as 'power.'  Relies on others for counsel but eventually comes into her own.)
• Marjorie Tyrell. (Bombshell, manipulates men as career; but also has a soul - cares about the poor, cares about her brother who is an outcast, stands up for her family.)
• Ygritte. (Ruthless warrior, raised to fight - but can't kill Jon Snow and breaks down crying when the time comes. What's not to love??)

 
Etc.
I don't see Sansa as "unrealistically submissive." Many of my SJW-leaning / liberal friends reacted badly to her character because she's so boy-crazy, identifies with her 'beauty' and is obsessive about pleasing men; but honestly, I can see that streak in myself too. And even if it's not exactly "me" the way she does it, I can see that she represents a very real archetype among women, which gave me tremendous empathy for her, along with frustration and "Why did you do that?!!!" as though she was a real person.  I also appreciate that when she was left to her own devices and her strength was put to the test, she stepped up to the plate and individuated. I literally have tears in my eyes typing this, because I found it so beautiful.  A chill overcame my whole body.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

I see! Thank you for clarifying @animal .

neither side of which will make anyone happy.

Yes. This. I appreciate that you have a middle view on this, and seem to just be going  for realism. One of the things that threw me off about your earlier posts was that I felt you were advocating that women need to be more assertive, independent, etc.
Which I find unneeded, as I feel that we are at an unprecedented time atm with female empowerment. I don't think there's much shortage of encouragement for women to pave their own way. It's become the trend. The cultural narrative in the past ten years has been highly influenced by third wave feminism to empower women to write their own stories, go their own way, etc. If anything, men are the ones being stripped of their validity and status lately, as women are liberated and media like Wonder Women champions this "female power."
Third-wave feminism has given rise to a type of approved masculanization of womenhood. But I find that this is even counter to women at large themselves, and which I feel the majority of them don't really want in the way that it's portrayed.
My sense of the cultural narrative at present is that we don't need more messages for women to leave men, be independent, be powerful, refuse the maternal/nurturer role, etc. I think "femininity" is in a bit of a crisis right now -- as you pointed out, it seems polarized.
And I think women need to debate with other women about it, and about what they want, rather than them going after men. I heard Peterson say that highly independent lawyer/business women tend to feel hollow into their 30's when the realize they've made their career their life. And a lot of these women go that route because the cultural narrative is pro-women's-power.
Not enough emphasis is given to the idea that a women might find great happiness under the embrace of a loving husband who she can lean on, but who doesn't oppress her. I think a phobia has developed in some women that men are oppressors, and so they refuse the idea of leaning on a man, by equating it with subjugation.
I wonder if you have any thoughts on how the narrative for women can balance?
How can women come to have the lover and family they want, while not feeling helpless?
What would you say is most needed in the discussion among women and their desires atm?
 

[Animal]

@Auburn
I'm laughing here because, after all that apparent 'conflict' - we essentially agree on what the problems are, and what needs to happen. 😀  Socionics is really onto something with Conflictors "talking past each other" but - at least in this particular case - I see my own values strongly reflected in your post, and how you see this.
I'm going to react to your post with a mixture of personal and wider thoughts, so I apologize in advance if that is confusing 🙂  feel free to ask if the intent seems unclear.  Part of my 'realism' means that I speak from lived experience. The reason I reference myself on public threads, is that I don't feel it's right to bring up other people's specific stories and feelings they have shared with me, or to speak for them.  So that's why I see myself as a better 'example' for me to use; however, I'll try to be clear on how I see this applying to women at large.
So, here goes. 😀

Yes. This. I appreciate that you have a middle view on this, and seem to just be going  for realism. One of the things that threw me off about your earlier posts was that I felt you were advocating that women need to be more assertive, independent, etc.

Thank you 🙂 Yes, realism is what I was going for. I need to remember to use that word to explain my intent more often. As Se-Te .... I take "realism" for granted and I forget that others don't necessarily begin and end with this angle.
I am not advocating for women to be more assertive or independent, unless they want to.  I also don't think that "independence" will be found by pretending we don't need love and can do everything ourselves. This is, in fact, an oppressive mindset.  And - I am in strong agreement with you that this particular brand has arisen due to women oppressing women, not men oppressing women.
Rather than encouraging women to be 'powerful warriors' - I'd sooner advocate for the "average woman" nowadays - to acknowledge that she needs love in her life. People are altogether too afraid to come to terms with this lately, and they refuse to admit simple obvious truths, like "men are physically stronger" - and thus derive the conclusion that women have DIFFERENT strengths, and acting like men will never actually give them power.  It only makes us weaker and more miserable, rather than stronger. 🙁

Which I find unneeded, as I feel that we are at an unprecedented time atm with female empowerment. I don’t think there’s much shortage of encouragement for women to pave their own way. It’s become the trend. The cultural narrative in the past ten years has been highly influenced by third wave feminism to empower women to write their own stories, go their own way, etc. If anything, men are the ones being stripped of their validity and status lately, as women are liberated and media like Wonder Women champions this “female power.”
Third-wave feminism has given rise to a type of approved masculanization of womenhood. But I find that this is even counter to women at large themselves, and which I feel the majority of them don’t really want in the way that it’s portrayed.

Yep.  Keeping men weak doesn't help anyone - certainly not women!  I've complained about this many times, for example, in my own post here - but I don't expect anyone to read the whole rant 🙂 I'll throw in some quotes....

• Men talking to women, men holding the door, men asking you out, being a little determined – so what? Get real people. Masculinity is a REAL force in the world – if you choose not to honor it, you’re living in a fantasy land. Cuckolding entire sub-cultures won’t do you any good; it won’t help you find a balanced relationship. If you want a man who is strong enough to handle you, then stop squandering male expression at every turn.
• [In religion]  there’s a strong focus on ‘modesty’ for women and not being presented as a sexual object, which of course brings to light the problem that it’s ASSUMED that men will otherwise do bad things, think bad thoughts etc; if we present in a sexy way. This makes a sexy woman, or a woman AT ALL – into a kind of ‘taboo.’ Which makes it exciting, titillating, sinful – to get just an inch closer to her and then go home and whack off.
• It’s a human instinct to want to admire others’ beauty and be admired. Some people feel this less than others, which is perfectly fine, but for those of us who get a thrill and connect on the basis of beauty and mutual admiration, and who see life as an art; why not indulge it? This kind of thing – for those of us who want to do it – DEMYSTIFIES the appeal of sexiness, of womanliness – and shows how it’s human. It demystifies the sexual undercurrents in conversation, since there’s literally nothing wrong with lusting a little as long as boundaries are set. Healthy desire leads to inspiration and excitement; breaks the monotony. Honoring the desire to be sexy makes for a more honest psyche, where people aren’t ‘cheating and being freaks behind closed doors’ due to all the repression they force themselves into every day.
• If men are not allowed to aggress, then the average man will devolve into a dependent pussy sucking your titty. That is not fulfilling for any of us.
• It is fine for ANYONE to assert their will, man or woman alike; and if men are socially not allowed to do this, then women end up feeling undesired or unfulfilled by men who aren’t working, aren’t asserting themselves, etc. As for the men, the suicide rates speak for themselves: they feel cuckolded, uninspired, unwanted, ineffective, creepy. Women, this is not good for you either – especially if you’re hetero – but even if you have sons, friends, brothers, coworkers who are male. An emasculated society is a limp world that can’t get momentum, can’t assert, can’t individuate. Having assertive women won’t make up for it, because these women still have an instinctual desire to find lovers, no matter how loudly they insist they ‘don’t need no man.’ Look deeper. Beyond that, if men in society are squandered due to being told they can’t assert their will, can’t “manspread” and sit comfortably, must squash their balls to avoid female wrath – society will have weak links and will perish.
• Sexless women and emasculated men are not ideals. It’s fine if individuals express this way, but praising it as some ideal is not the solution to social problems; it is more problematic than human nature itself. People cry, desire, flirt, ask each other out, assert their will, aggress.. your social constructs will not stop them. At best, you will push these acts deeper behind closed doors, where they will come out in extreme ways (rape, cheating, whoring, etc).

This rant ended with a commentary on my own defense against these social messages:

• In this world of categories, ideals and constructs, I find that exploring my own nature is paramount. These rules and games will never tell me who I am, nor will they contain me; I have always known this. If you explore who you are, and you express who you are and observe what happens, you learn a lot about the world and it’s easier to see the trends for what they are. That is my theory anyway. Subjectivity and individualism do not necessarily begin and end with serving the self. If you know who you are and assert it, the world shows its true colors in your wake.

My sense of the cultural narrative at present is that we don’t need more messages for women to leave men, be independent, be powerful, refuse the maternal/nurturer role, etc. I think “femininity” is in a bit of a crisis right now — as you pointed out, it seems polarized.

I'll respond to this with some personal experience. To be clear on my intent, my point is to illustrate how I came to terms with my 'strong personality' as a woman.  In articulating this journey, I hope to demonstrate that any woman, with any set of needs & talents, can find a reasonable balance that includes 'honoring herself' and 'honoring a man' in an equal relationship.
"The best women get chased, and the best men chase" - this advice was imparted to me at a young age, and I saw that it was true. Men want to chase someone and women want to be chased. Obvious, right?
The problem is, I have a willful personality.  I'm not any kind of 'warrior' or physical beast, but I know what I want, and I figure out how to get it. In all other areas of my life, I was assertive and driven; but where men were concerned, I was afraid of rejection.  I knew exactly who I wanted, but I needed to make them come after me.
Hot guys chased me all the time, but I wanted exactly who I wanted, and couldn't settle for less.  I didn't want to demean my own worth as a woman by chasing my crushes outright, yet I was hopelessly obsessed.  So I would lure them to chase me while feeling tortured over any sign of rejection, and essentially destroy myself over each one for years.  This could have been resolved by simply asking them out and getting a direct answer, but I was terrified that would turn them off and I'd ruin my chance.
I fantasized about being a man so I could be more direct and woo my crushes through romantic acts.  I wanted to exhibit chivalry and honor, and get down on my knees and serenade the beautiful boys who made my heart sing.  I researched transgenderism, but I didn't have body dysphoria and didn't want to condemn myself to being a short guy with a high-pitched voice and female organs.  The only place I could live out my fantasy relationships was in fiction. What a coincidence that I started writing books at age 11. 🙂
Subtlety and coyness did not suit me, and the attempt to fit that role made me less appealing. I came to terms with this in my late 20s and began taking direct initiative when needed. Since I’m attracted to shy men, this dynamic worked out well, and I finally had good relationships.
Still, this does not mean that I want to be “in charge.” I need a guy who holds his own, who defends women, and who is strong and firm in his own mind, but who finds my willfulness sexy. It’s an absolute necessity because otherwise I’d spend my whole life pretending I'm someone else, and that is not sexy or honest. But I do not want someone that backs out of a fight, expects me to carry all the weight, or allows me to dominate him. He needs to hold his own in an argument, a decision, a fight. He needs to be a man.
In short, I need to be with someone I respect. How could I respect someone if I completely dominate him?
I did not have what it took to attract the right man when I was 'waiting for them to make a move' and playing games. I needed to be real about who I am, in order to attract someone equally real.  And now that I found my soulmate in @ivory , I am driven to nurture and worship him.  It turns me on that I cannot dominate him intellectually, emotionally or physically, and I trust that nobody can. 😉
I feel like a lot of these messages about ‘men and women’ miss these human, grey areas; where a woman doesn’t need to fit the ‘submissive’ mold to the T, yet there is still room to express her will in an honest, loving relationship; without being a dominant warrior who "doesn't need a man."
We all need to figure out what type of balance we are personally comfortable with. And there are as many shades of men as there are women; so there is always someone who fits with any woman who discovers who she is and expresses it with an open heart.

And I think women need to debate with other women about it, and about what they want, rather than them going after men. I heard Peterson say that highly independent lawyer/business women tend to feel hollow into their 30’s when the realize they’ve made their career their life. And a lot of these women go that route because the cultural narrative is pro-women’s-power.
Not enough emphasis is given to the idea that a women might find great happiness under the embrace of a loving husband who she can lean on, but who doesn’t oppress her. I think a phobia has developed in some women that men are oppressors, and so they refuse the idea of leaning on a man, by equating it with subjugation.

Oh gosh yes. Yes yes yes. I was never under the delusion that I'd be fulfilled by being a 'career woman,' even when I had a music career in my teens.  And I certainly was not happy until I learned how to deal with real relationships.  My heart aches for these people 🙁
Women need to talk to each other for sure. At this point , many women are oppressing each other and blaming men for it. 🙁  We need to let men talk about how to be men, and allow women to talk about how to be women; and for F**Ks sake, respect each other's decisions. I'm so sick of men being drowned out by the same women that complain they are pussies! What the hell can a man possibly do right in such a scenario?   Do women actually GET OFF on that???  If so, they must feel really weak and powerless, which is just heartbreaking.
I'm going to think about the how-to questions and come back and respond to them in another post. Those are such great questions, I want to treat them with the respect they deserve.

[Bera]

Oh, my, you guys wrote so much, I don't know where to start.
There is actually one thing that bugs me a bit, but how do I express it... I think the word submissive is used here in a context where it does not truly belong. I doubt many women are submitting to society's norms or acting in a  passive/receptive way because they want to impress anyone or because they want to make men happy. We are not that selfless. 🙂
So, I think it might be better to just put submissive where it belongs and take society out of it. :))) Because society is actually not pushing women to be submissive; on the contrary, you hear a lot about the importance of being a strong, independent woman, about taking the lead, being assertive, having a great career etc. Auburn is right here.
And I don't actually see the idea of not needing a man being that prevalent - at least in Romania. Oh, no, you need a man ! But you also need to be an independent woman ! And you need to have absolute equality and fairness in your relationship. And at the same time everything has to go your way, because you are the woman, so you should be respected and cherished !!! 🙂 Also, you should experience all your wildest fantasies with your man, because we are all free and open minded ! But you should do this while keeping the perfect fairness and equality mentioned above ! :p
There are many, many beliefs like these that actually don't make sense if you put all of them together. But people don't say them all one after the other like I did, they just take one of them and shove it down your throat in any given situation in which you don't meet the standards associated with that particular thing...and keep the others for other situations. :p
Returning to submissiveness, I think it's highly discouraged.
To give an example, just a few hours ago I met up with some friends and at some point we started talking about..taking your husband's last name. One of us is in a serious relationship and her boyfriend suggested it might be a good idea for them to get married. And she doesn't want to marry him, because of many reasons, one being that she would never take his last name. So, I just asked - but wouldn't it feel nice in a way? to take his name? since it would make you feel you belonged to him? <3
And - as I should have expected :)) - she said she did not want to feel like she belonged to her boyfriend and that there was no logical reason for which she should be the one to take his last name and he should not be the one to take hers. And when you think about it logically, there really isn't any reason for it. But this was not a rational discussion :)) I was asking her out of pure curiosity if she did not feel that taking his name would be a fun and loving thing to do. My question was in the particular half joking half romantic tone. Not inviting a debate. But she made a debate out of it.
And I think this happened because she truly believes that men and women must be equal and that there is no situation in which a woman should be in an inferior position to a man. We heard this idea a billion times, we know it. And I think this is actually part of the problem - this theory should only be applied in job - related situations. It shouldn't be seen as a rule about how to live your life and what to do in your relationships. Because pure equality is not possible or desirable in any possible situation.

[Animal]

@Bera
I agree with you (and Auburn) that there are a lot of social standards right now, pushing women to be 'strong, independent,' etc -- based on false grounds. Since part of being strong and independent is embodying love & compassion.
But I stand by what I said, that many people do submit to social norms. I include men in this.
Not many people really know who they are and what they want. So what is left, but to comply with - or rebel against - outside standards?
Some people are born with directive personalities, like me - so I might 'know what I want' on the surface - but it requires individuation to really know what you want and who you are, deep down.  And that includes recognizing your empathy and compassion, and being fully present with others. It includes acknowledging and embracing love.
Regarding your friend, I think the need for 'equality' is "logical" but.... I'm too romantic and don't care that much for measuring things on a logic stick.  I changed my name to his without hesitation, even though my father's surname sounded better with my first name and is much cooler. 😛  When we come up with a surname that encapsulates our marriage, we will both change our name together. But until then I'd rather share a name with him.
I'm not so insecure that something like that would make me feel "unequal." And that's the problem.. a lot of this talk about equality is more about egos and people feeling insecure in who they are. Like ...what are they trying to prove?

[Faex]

Oh, @bera, I looooooooove Metta! I've actually believed for a long time that Metta is an Fi archetype! (I.e. that it is an activation or cultivation of Fi 'energy'.) And I do think they are related: Guan Yin is from the Tibetan tradition too (who I believe are the source of Metta as a practice, though I can't be sure) where they know her as 'White Tara'. The Thais too and the Japanese all have her in their practices.
I find she's the most similar to the Madonna in the East (compared to other religions/deities/myths in the East) because she was a human being, like Mary. She is basically a saint who is enlightened but who rather than 'ascend', chose to stay with 'her children' to help them as they try to become enlightened. They are not really 'her children' but that sense of staying to watch over and help the 'little ones' (those still struggling) gives it that "her children" feel.
The virgin is also believed to be sinless and has been 'glorified' already (Catholics and Orthodox both believe in the 'dormition' (Orthodox) or the 'assumption' (Catholic)--wherein her body was taken to heaven after the end of her life, and glorified along with her soul) but rather than seen as one just enjoying the delights of heaven, she's seen as one deeply connected to the concerns and lives of those 'still on the journey'. Like Guan yin, she's constantly watching over 'her children' who are still struggling. Stories abound of her apparitions, constantly coming to warn people and things.
They are just so similar (IMO),  it's quite striking.
I think they are an Fi archetype. Both of them. And I believe the same about the practice of Metta. I think there is Fi femininity, Fe femininity, but also Fi motherhood vs Fe motherhood. I think the Marian/GuanYin motherhood is the Fi compassionate motherhood kind/archetype. (I'm thinking of @auburn's noting of Fi propensity for caring for 'little', vulnerable things and valuing of life qua life.)
As an aside, my favourite depiction of a goddess in popular media is the Sidney animation Movie, Moanna. Tefiti, the goddess of Life. I think the reason she was so 'touching' (to me) is that she's portrayed in that same Madonna/Guan-Yin sense: Filled with 'life' (which makes her 'mother') and compassion, but zero war-like or active/Je qualities. She's all about freely giving life for its own sake and doesn't talk much or command and is very gentle (Tefiti).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1AsliGh_j8

[Bera]

@fae - I didn't know they might actually be related. The energy really seems to be very similar if not the same, so that would make total sense !
Thank you so much for reminding me of this scene in Moana !!! I actually saw people's discussion about it on the old forum but you caught me in a more sensitive moment now and it really got me. This week I will be going on a short trip to Dubai. And I will see the desert. And I think it will be the perfect moment to contemplate the desert in my own soul and to think of how to bring my own Tefiti back to who she actually is. 🙂
You are such a wonderful person, Fae !!! 🙂
This made me cry. <3 I need to eat something good to recover and then I need to start the preparation for the trip.
 

[Animal]

I still need to answer the good questions Auburn asked - about solutions. I've yapped about so many over the years, but I'm percolating to get them down to a few key points 🙂
In the meantime I wanted to post this - a great example of the problem I'm talking about..

 
The trope of a prodigal child in a woman's body.

• No experience in the normal world. Either can't speak English, or hasn't learned to socialize properly etc; must be taught to exist normally.
• Develops some skill that men respect, like combat -- through unnatural means (computer programming, etc)
• Has never been 'tainted' by the touch of another man.
• Relies on a completely normal, unremarkable guy to 'show her the ways' of the normal world, giving him absolute power over her
• Fulfills male fantasy that he doesn't have to improve or be remarkable to have an extraordinarily beautiful innocent woman who is untouched by prior relationships.
• Relies on severe power imbalance.
• Promotes childlike qualities in grown women.

Etc

[Faex]

You are such a wonderful person, Fae !!!
This made me cry. <3 I need to eat something good to recover and then I need to start the preparation for the trip.

Oh, @bera, you're so sweet! Thanks. I'm glad it made you happy and I think you're great too! 🙂
LMAO, @animal . . . fuhget aboutwhat I said, lol. You'll hate Wonder Woman, ha ha!:

The trope of a prodigal child in a woman’s body.
No experience in the normal world. Either can’t speak English, or hasn’t learned to socialize properly etc; must be taught to exist normally.
Develops some skill that men respect, like combat — through unnatural means (computer programming, etc)
Has never been ‘tainted’ by the touch of another man.
Relies on a completely normal, unremarkable guy to ‘show her the ways’ of the normal world, giving him absolute power over her
Fulfills male fantasy that he doesn’t have to improve or be remarkable to have an extraordinarily beautiful innocent woman who is untouched by prior relationships.
Relies on severe power imbalance.
Promotes childlike qualities in grown women.
Etc

This is Wonder Woman to a T! I hadn't even noticed this story motif as a thing till now! Whoah, you're so right! (By the way, I love The 5th Element, lol! :-))
 

[Bera]

@animal - you are very good at finding these tropes ! When the video started I already thought of the manic pixie dream girl which I understand is a subtrope. 🙂
As a pure Pe lead I don't really know what to say. :))  I'd say it's not just a male fantasy to be with a very young and naive girl who worships him. I'd say it is also a female fantasy to be with a mature and experienced man who does not judge her for not being that mature and experienced herself, so this goes both ways and there are mutual benefits (and drawbacks)
Also, like with the submissiveness talk, I think biology plays a role here too, as men are naturally looking for women who look young, innocent and almost childlike because of natural selection. But I think this extends over real age and also encompasses certain energies.
The whole thing is not that bad if the body is really of an adult woman. 😛 I think it becomes evil when she is actually a child, like in Lolita.
Also, I thought of an example of a very naive and innocent girl who has awesome combat powers and who is developing together with a boy her age who is...well, more experienced than her but not that much. 🙂 And it's Eleven - from Stranger Things. <3 I think her example is healthy. I mean her whole background story is very unhealthy, of course, but her relationship to Mike seems to be developing in a healthy way. But they are both kids, so it's a different thing... Well, if you compared her to any other girl her age who might be a potential love interest for Mike, actually it's the same thing, hm.
It took me some time to find a video where she is not tormented by someone and her nose is not bleeding. 🙂

You see, in this situation I wouldn't say it's a bad thing. Though Eleven is very inexperienced and Mike is just a bit of a geek but generally a normal boy, so, they are not exactly on the same page despite him also being young. But maybe the difference here is that Eleven is still too young to be portrayed in a sexy way, so she is just a prodigal child who has telekinetic abilities and no idea about the real world. But of course this will follow, this is where it's going.

[Animal]

@Bera @Faerie

you are very good at finding these tropes !

@Elsie actually found this.  I am very media stupid.
The reason I can summarize these tropes is that if I see the trend in 2-3 movies, then I come to understand why people act the way they do. I see reality first, and then when I see media I discover what's behind the brainwashing that occurs before my eyes. 😉
I am much more in tune with real life than media, so lies in the media really stand out to me when I see them.  The media 'tropes' hit me very hard because I don't watch tv at all and never did, don't watch many movies and don't read much fiction. So when I do engage media, the bullshit really stands out to me.
Did you watch the whole video, though? The video touched on some exceptions, like in Star Trek, where the woman comes into the world 'new' and inexperienced, and then develops beyond that.  There are grey areas here.
Things come in shades. Yes, there are women that are into older, experienced men. There are men who are into older, experienced women. There are people who are into conductors because of the 'wise' vibe they give off.  There's nothing wrong with this.  The problem is the promotion of an extreme power imbalance and an unrealistic standard for both genders.

@faerie
I also enjoy The Fifth Element, for the excitement factor, and I find her character to be really sexy and cute, but the relationship itself does nothing for me.
I haven't seen Wonder Woman so I can't comment on whether she's an empathic character (to me) or not.
Mulhulland Drive actually does some amazing commentary on this trope. Gosh where do I begin. I'm going to do this inside a spoiler because I don't want to ruin it for anyone that hasn't seen it yet.
 
 
[SPOILER]
So the plot of Mulhulland Dr. begins with a sexy brunette getting in a car crash. She forgets who she is. Another woman takes her in, a blond.
Blond falls in love with brunette. The two have a hot sexy relationship where the blond is an amazing actress, staying in a beautiful apartment in LA to begin her career, and saves the poor brunette from this terrible tragedy, thereby winning her love. A great director takes interest in casting the Blond for a major role, but he is intimidated by underhanded deals in Hollywood and is not allowed to cast her.
Then everything changes. The blond wakes up with a different name, living in a shitty apartment. She is the same actress but looks miserable and not as hot. The brunette is a successful actress who gets all the good roles and hooks up with the great director, who casts her in all the roles. Everyone's names have switched around.
The brunette toys with the blond's heart, inviting her places, then leaving her. The blond is a nobody, with no success, and the brunette has everything. Ultimately the blond gets a hitman to off the brunette, and shoots herself.
What we can surmise is that the first half of the movie was the blond's fantasy. She felt powerless in her life, and in her dream life she had all the power - she was a good actress, pretty and happy and loved; and she had the resources to take in this brunette and make her fall in love with her. The brunette was "born sexy yesterday" since she had forgotten her name and had no idea who she was or where to go. The blond had all the power, and this was the sexy fantasy that turned her on and rescued her from her powerless life.
Mulhulland Dr. was a commentary on Hollywood in general; with the underhanded deals going on behind the scenes and the crime just beneath the surface of this glamorous world. It's interesting how the movie also exposed the 'born sexy yesterday' fantasy for what it is; though they did it in such a real human way that made both characters empathetic and made the relationship hot. I didn't realize he had 'exposed this trope' until now.
[/SPOILER]
I related to the character feeling powerless, because of things that have happened in my own life to leave me in that position; and the longing to "save" or "be saved by" the men I desired. It is indeed a sexy fantasy for both parties - to save and be saved. But realistically, any relationship whose foundation relies on a power imbalance, will end up being abusive.  Love is what happens between two people who have empathy for each other and respect each other as equals.
The power imbalance being presented in such an extreme, IS an unrealistic trope, because full grown women aren't innocent, helpless and reliant on men for basic things, and "average guys" don't have absolute power over an 'innocent doll' in a real relationship. In most of these movies, unlike Mulhulland Dr - the power fantasy isn't acknowledged for what it is. Instead it is sold as "good, ideal love story."
Having such stories embedding ideas in our minds about 'ideal romance' may be harmful for the psyche.

• It creates false expectations for women - to have no lovers in their past; to worship average nobodies when they are astoundingly beautiful themselves; to be unaware of their own sex appeal; to have no expectations of their own
• It creates false expectations for 'savior' and 'saved' in a relationship, where in reality  relationship is a mix of both
• It normalizes narcissism. (People of both genders might think they're living out an ideal Hollywood romance, only to discover this 'perfect hero' was not so glorious after all. )

 
I appreciate Mulhulland Drive for "pulling back the curtain" and exposing the darker side of that issue.

[Bera]

@animal - do you know this site ?
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/browse.php
It's amazing and I think you can find a lot of material here ! But it's pretty addictive, you go from one trope to the next and next and next...until it's already 5 a.m. Not that CT is any different. :))
Oh, yes, I also saw the exceptions. I saw there were even some examples of men who were the unexperienced and naive ones. 🙂
I agree it is unrealistic and I also think it is overused because it is a good reflection of something some men really want.
I think we should look for some unrealistic depictions of men in the media specifically aimed to satisfy women's fantasies, to be completely fair. 🙂 I found 2, one about abductions and one about monsters but I feel they are not right (not romantic enough), so I will look for more and only get back when I find something cute. :))
I LOVE Mulholland Drive !!! Especially that scene with the llorona singing...I get chills only thinking about it.
Argh, spoiler doesn't work again.I will just post the song without my question about what was actually happening. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvAijRKZdjA

[Animal]

@bera
[Edit: Oops, our posts crossed! I wrote this before reading your post. Reading it now!]
I also read Lolita and loved it. I appreciated that the book exposed pedophilia for what it is, in a realistic manner, from the perspective of a pedophile. I understand the critiques that it was 'sexy' and sexualized the child, but that is the point of the book. Pedophilia happens all the time, right under our noses, and therefore needs to be exposed, just as Mulhulland Drive - in its poetic strange way - exposed Hollywood, and the narcissistic sentiment behind the "born sexy yesterday" relationship trope.
These psychological issues are real, and I appreciate media that entices us to think about them.
I also understand the function of escapist media, don't get me wrong.  The Fifth Element is action-packed "escapist media." It's fun, hot, cute, colorful.
I'm not saying I can't enjoy movies like that, but I am also aware of ways in which the media is trying to brainwash me, so I often think about the messages that are really being taught to us. My observation is that many people just 'absorb' these tropes and messages, and don't stop to think about how it might be harmful to their psyche. I am not immune either; I'm not a cyborg or an alien 😀  but I enjoy being present with my own mind and asking myself where my ideas and sentiments came from. For all of us, some of our sentiments are raw and utterly human; others are programmed. The  programming is designed to feed on the proclivities we already possess, which is why it's so successful in brainwashing us.

[Animal]

I agree it is unrealistic and I also think it is overused because it is a good reflection of something some men really want.

See, this is the 'brainwashing' I'm talking about. (I'm not saying YOU are brainwashed - you said 'some men' - just responding to the idea that "men want this" at all.)
The media tells us that it's a reflection of something "men" really want.  To me, this is just as much a misandry message as it is a misogyny message.
It's a reflection of something we all want. We all want to save someone and be saved because there's a little child inside us that wants mommy and daddy to come to the rescue when things get rough.  Shit happens and then you feel powerless, you want to be rescued, or you get off on rescuing someone else so you can feel strong. This is why children coddle their little dolls and pets.
How many women in the world get off on nurturing some tragic guy?   Why do you think rockstars who are drug addicts always have girlfriends and women chasing after them like crazy, trying to save their soul? 😀
"MEN" do not want someone helpless any more than "WOMEN" do.  Many men want to be rescued just as much as many women do.  The exact style of rescuing tends to be different among genders.
Those movies are basically appealing to our reptilian brain. Mommy-daddy fantasies, and dressing like a baby so you can be coddled by mommy & daddy.  It's not making an advanced, realistic social commentary on advanced, thoughtful, mature men and women, and it's unfortunate that people of both genders walk away with ideas about 'how they should be' based on this.

I think we should look for some unrealistic depictions of men in the media specifically aimed to satisfy women’s fantasies, to be completely fair.

The men in those movies are just as unrealistic as the women.  Movies that do 1D characters tend to do so across the board.
But the men in those movies are portrayed as 'ordinary, average guys' - like I explained in my other post - and then, everyone just believes that these guys are 'ordinary average guys' and this is what guys are like.
True, we all have reptilian instincts. But most of the men I know irl, actually want girlfriends and wives that have wisdom, experience, good conversation, etc. So the false idea that these are 'average guys' is just as damaging to all of us, as is the ideals about women.
At least the women in the movies are portrayed as 'extraordinary,' so it's a little easier to accept that not all of us can be this way. (Although we think we need to be that way in order to be loved.)  But imagine being a man that wants an advanced, real woman to talk to, and feeling like all your friends will think you're "pussy whipped" because you like having conversations with your mature, grown up girlfriend.  Imagine being an average guy and feeling like "all the average guys in the movies have these beautiful girlfriends who worship them - so I must be really undesirable if I can't even get a normal girl to worship me."  I mean..there's a lot wrong here. 😀
Anyway, we might be able to find some unrealistic depictions of men that are there to satisfy womens' desires. But usually the woman who ends up with him in a movie, is super hot and extraordinary herself. You never see "average Jane Doe" ending up with Hulk Thor God.
Thor came to mind because it's a "God" dating an "average woman" - but the woman is played by Natalie Portman and portrayed as a drop-dead-beautiful brilliant genius.

[Faex]

Wow, you really dropped a truth bomb there, didn't you, @animal? Hollywood is ruining our lives and we don't even realize it.

I am also aware of ways in which the media is trying to brainwash me, so I often think about the messages that are really being taught to us. My observation is that many people just ‘absorb’ these tropes and messages, and don’t stop to think about how it might be harmful to their psyche.

One that has definitely affected me is the coming-of-age stories where a person pursues their real dreams and it all works out in the end. I think there's a false promise in there. I wish they'd portray stories about those who take those paths away from the conventional paths and regret it. No, I don't want people not to live their 'real lives' but I think people should know that living so should be done for its own sake, not as a promise of success.

[Tea]

@Fae, both my husband and I rejected the Baby Boomer's advice: Do what you love. Eventually I kind of took that road, but not for a long time. The bothersome thing is that that advice is a myth. It's not for everybody. It's for the privileged. What about loving what you do? That requires some character and attitude adjustment.
If someone really loves something, they probably should fall the calling to chase after it.  But for most people, I think there's joy to be found in ordinary vocations. Why don't we cultivate that?

[Faex]

The bothersome thing is that that advice is a myth. It’s not for everybody. It’s for the privileged.

Indeed, @tea. I always wonder if people 70 years ago could've just upped and "followed their dreams". Perhaps the simpler lives back then gave people simpler dreams, like marrying so and so from family X in the East of the village. Things were harsher economically and technologically, back then, but I think they are much harsher psychologically now. Without hollywood, would I, a simple African girl, have ever dreamed of becoming a writer? Would I have thought it something to aspire to? I really think I wouldn't care. I'd just enjoy reading book, most likely.
Eventually, I too have "followed my dream", as it was sabotaging my conventional path but I wonder if my dream was doing that self-sabotaging or rather my strong underlying belief that "not following my dream" was a disaster.

[Bera]

@animal I know you didn't say I was brainwashed and, to be honest, my interest in society's opinion is not extremely high, so I could not be bothered by that because I know it's not true.
I do think men and women don't want the exact same things. But I also think the difference is not as big as many people seem to suggest. Many of my friends - both guys and girls - are facing issues that are pretty similar to my own. Usually when I get closer to a man, I tend to see he is not that different after all.
But all this is only on an emotional level. I mean, at least in my case. I don't want to generalize but I feel my case is the more common one and I also think most people have a preference for certain power dynamics even if the preference is different from mine.
So, when things get beyond an emotional bond, I can't really say I want a guy who is helpless and needs to be saved. :))) This is exactly the last thing I would want. It's not malice or a rejection of men's vulnerability. It's just a...fact. Like...I prefer chocolate ice cream to broccoli. I'm not saying broccoli is bad. But also I think most women prefer chocolate ice cream and the ones who don't still have a preference though a different one.
I think movies like Beauty and the Beast play with women's fantasies. But, as I said, I don't want to go there because the topic is larger than just women's fantasies.

[Bera]

I remembered a talk against ideas like "follow your dreams!".
It also debunks "Don't listen to what other people say". And from a financial view point this is totally true. (But in relationships I think it's not !)

Alain de Botton has some interesting talks about this too but they would be too far from this thread's topic.

[Animal]

Wow, you really dropped a truth bomb there, didn’t you, @animal? Hollywood is ruining our lives and we don’t even realize it.

@Faerie - this made me laugh. Haha, I just say what I see and this stuff seems so obvious to me -  but I guess I did drop a bomb! hahaha.
Maybe I have the 'truth bomb' effect because I lack persuasive qualities and 'subtle delivery.' There's a "say-it-like-it-is" that I share with Trump.  Still, I'm a lot more shy, empathic and self-conscious than Trump, so in person I appear nice and sweet.  But online, when there's nothing but words, it's like "holy crap, so ruthless!" 😀
I should just learn to own it, like the Hodge-twins.  I will never learn to say things in a smooth, subtle manner, so maybe I should go the other way and stop hating myself for being "too" blunt.
Anyway, thanks for saying "truth bomb" that way. It made me happy 🙂
And yes, that is exactly my concern. It's not like I have such a big stick up my ass that I can't enjoy movies like The Fifth Element. But, I also notice certain undercurrents which are very clearly affecting the way people live.
You brought up a good example with the "follow your dreams!" narrative.  I strongly agree with you, @teatime and @bera that it's not helpful for everyone to believe it's their duty to discover & follow their deepest dreams.  Like Tea said, if there's a dream that compels you and pulls your heartstrings, by all means follow it  - with the understanding that it's not something you're entitled to, but rather, something you are willing to suffer for, because it's worth the sacrifice. But for those people who don't have this big dream gnawing them from the moment they're born, why not learn to love what they do, instead of  struggling and killing themself to 'discover what they love?'   @Teatime, I really liked the way you phrased that.

[Bera]

@animal - I like your bluntness. 🙂
And about following dreams, it's a bit complicated. I think you should still look for improvement and/or better alternatives even if you don't have a real vocation.
Many of us chose our current careers when we were too young to really know what we are good at. With my current knowledge I would maybe not choose law again. I can see why it was not the best option. But when I was 18, I didn't have the knowledge and experience I have now. I didn't realize how disorganized I am and what a toll it will bring to constantly swim against the current.
It was still not a bad choice, it could have been much worse, at least with this job you can compensate lack of organization skills with quick reactions to new situations. And there are many opportunities and you can feel useful. It also provides plenty of adrenaline rushes. It's not boring and it's ok from a financial point of view, though the fiscal system is a disaster. :))
I also think it's very important to always learn new things and be open to ..side quests. I was never that person who just does what she must do and doesn't get involved in lots of other stuff.
I try to both keep a positive and thankful attitude for what I have and at the same time to keep exploring alternatives.
And since I'm here I also wanted to address something that was mentioned at some point about career women over 30. I think for many of us work is a kind of distraction from personal issues. But also a career can be controlled if you just put in the necessary effort. It's something that provides security. It's predictable that if you work hard, learn lots of new things and are sociable and open, you will only go up. Of course, tragedies can happen, but it's mostly stable ground on which you can build. I wish I could say this about relationships too, but looking at the facts - that one in 2 couples get a divorce and that many people don't even want a serious relationship to start with - you are basically not choosing between love and career, you are choosing between highly unlikely satisfying relationships and a highly likely satisfying career. I am not saying this mentality is not flawed but this is basically the motivation behind more effort being put in career than in relationships.
I know some career women over 30 who really suffer a lot because they did not have children. At my former work place there were 2 of them, one was 43 and the other 38. They were not married and they did not have kids. They obsessed about having kids. One of them was thinking of adoption. The other was trying to have fun and forget about it but didn't really manage to. And I could say, oh, it's so sad...but I also know a lot of women with no career and no relationships. It's not that easy to say they made the wrong choice because you can't exactly know what their life would have been in completely different circumstances. There is no guarantee it would have been better.
Maybe you have a different view about this @animal , I was trying to bring the topic back to female figures and still connect it somehow to what was discussed before about career. 🙂 I am sure there are examples for this in the media too. I don't generally watch shows like The Office or Suits because I already get this type of drama at work. :)) But I think there are plenty of examples in this type of shows.
 
 

[Animal]

@bera
I knew when I was little that I didn't want to have kids.
I started doing music and writing books very early, and hoped to have a career in music and writing. If I couldn't make money that way, I assumed I'd get some other job but spend my free time pursuing my passions.  For me this was not a pipe dream, however.  I had a full blown career in music by age 15 and had saved up 10K so I could move out, by the time I got sick which began on my sixteenth birthday. A career in the arts was not a 'glamorous ideal' but rather something I earned through hard work and discipline, and which required sacrifice, annoyance, rejection, heavy scheduling, preparation etc. All in all, I gave up my childhood for the sake of this career.
At the same time, I always knew I craved a partner. I needed a loving relationship. I was boy crazy and willing to scour the entire world for my soulmate. I hoped my songs would play on the radio and he would fall in love with me before we even met, so I could swoop into his town, recognize his face in the audience and scoop him up 😀
Any time I liked a guy, I wrote songs about him. In some cases, I sang these love songs into their eyes in the audience, or polished songs I was writing and fantasized about them playing on the radio. I always harbored this fantasy that "He" would be in a store somewhere and he would hear my voice on the speakers, singing about him and his heart would melt.
There was never a moment in my life when I doubted the importance of having a relationship, but I knew that having children would not be fair. If I was touring the world doing music, it wouldn't be fair to the kids. If I was writing books all night long, it wouldn't be fair to the kids. I didn't want to divide my energy. I wanted to give my all to my work and my husband, but not to be responsible for children.
This seemed reasonable to me. But I also understood (quite early on) that men expected to have children and also a career; and they expected the woman to take care of the children. For me, this would be problematic. I just figured I'd be very open about this with any man I met, and find a man who doesn't want kids. One of my male best friends, I met when we were 15. We were not romantically involved at all, but he was absolutely certain he didn't want kids. (To this day, he's married for a decade but has no kids.)  So I knew these men did exist.
I got sick at 16; which meant that taking care of my illness is  a full time job, and at that point, I definitely could not consider having kids. Even if I gave up my passions completely, having kids wouldn't be fair, because I had very expensive medical needs; could get sick at any time and then be incapable of taking care of them; could not stay up all night when kids needed me; and might also pass my illness on to a baby in utero. No freaking way!
So now I was juggling an illness that costs 50K a year for medicine just to stay alive; but which prevents me from working full time; and also my dire need to express myself artistically. What a mess..
I avoided relationships for many years as I navigated the world and tried to sort this out. More and more men, in our 20s, were intent on having kids. Any time I established mutual interest with a man, I talked to him immediately about the fact that I don't want kids.  For the most part, the guys I dated either didn't want kids or didn't care; but there was one...
He was a musician and we were not dating yet, but we both secretly liked each other. The conversation went like this:
Him: I definitely want kids.
Me: I don't.
Him: Really?!?!!!!!!! Why?
Me: I'm completely dedicated to my music.
Him: You can have kids and still do music!  I'm completely dedicated to my music, but I want kids.
Me: So, when you're on tour, who will take care of the kids?
Him: My wife.
Me: Cool. So, when I'm on tour, who will take care of the kids?
Him: [blank stare]
Me: See my point?
Him: Hm.... I never thought of it that way....
 
You're right that this is a major issue for women that want kids. And men just expect that you can have kids and still pursue your passion, because they can do that. They can be fathers, but they don't always consider the unspoken expectations that are attached to being a mother. And yet, nowadays, many men still want to be with a woman who is successful in some field.. and who ALSO wants to be a mother. !!!!!
I really appreciate men who are honest enough to say "I want to work a lot, so my wife doesn't have to work. Being a mother is a full time job and I want her to be a good mother for our kids."  I also appreciate men who are honest enough to say "I want to do what I love, so I don't want to have to obsess over making  a lot of money. My wife will have to work too, so I don't mind if we have no kids. It would be too much for either of us to have to do both of those things."
But many of them just don't make enough money. They pursue what they WANT to do rather than a job that would earn them money, and then they expect their wife to earn money and also take on the bulk of responsibility of being a mother.
This is where the problem lies: the current expectation that society puts on women to have a career AND have kids. Some women adopt this expectation and some men also expect it out of women.
In my opinion, if a man wants to have kids and expects his wife to take care of them, he needs to think about making real money. Too many men think they can just pursue their own dreams and make very little money, and then leave it to the women to sort out the rest. On the same token, too many women also feel entitled to 'pursue their dreams,' rather than focusing on being a good mother for children that they decide to have.
For me, I just decided - I'm not having kids.  In most cases, if a guy wanted kids I just didn't get involved with him.  I know who I am and what my limits are.

[Faex]

Oh, animal, you just keep melting my heart over and over again! (big heart emoji here!)
Now this here...

So now I was juggling an illness that costs 50K a year for medicine just to stay alive; but which prevents me from working full time;

...sounds real tough. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. I can't imagine. Being jobless for 8 months has grown me 4 new grey hairs just because of the question "Where will next month's rent come from?" If I had to worry about 50,000 a year just for medicine while not being able to "work hard" (or at least as much as possible), I'd have a wrinkled forehead and bent back already. Kudoz to you!
I really appreciate everything you have to say about women, careers/dreams, children, relationships, marriage, and male expectations. I do have to say I'd be very happy being a full time mom and writing books and blogs when my kids are at school. That to me, sounds like a dream come true. I'm just not sure I can find a man who has the views you described, like:

I really appreciate men who are honest enough to say “I want to work a lot, so my wife doesn’t have to work. Being a mother is a full time job and I want her to be a good mother for our kids.”

I'm trying to establish myself in a new business/career thing and I have to say, my poor Te is about all spent. I could sure use a white knight right about now! I have no problems being a 'traditional wife', as long as it's to a good man. I man I fully respect because I know he's a totally decent person, good heart, and could put me and my kiddos ahead of himself. I have no problems doing the 'catering' things feminists consider slavery (Like taking care of his clothes, food, etc.) Sigh. I don't know what the trick is, but I haven't met that guy yet! And I'm a woman who will be deeply sad if I don't have children, no doubt!
Pursuing my dreams has now become a necessity: No job and no white knight in sight. I think I kinda put myself in this position to sort of trick myself (psychologically) to taking the leaps and risks I'd been afraid of taking for decades.
 

[Bera]

@animal - your story is so touching. 🙁 <3
I honestly love the idea of having a kid but only when I think of the kid as already being at least 5-6 years old. :)) I like the idea of educating a kid and playing with him and having adventures together ! Of taking him to different classes and solving his little issues with friends and teachers. Watching him grow and develop. Reading bed time stories. Providing comfort and motivation to do stuff.
But I have no idea what I will do in his first years of life. I don't have very strong maternal instincts and I lack the patience and organizational skills to take care of a baby. Probably I can do it, since most people can, but it will be hard. 🙂
I decided that if I will not have a life partner to have a kid with and my income will stay the same or increase, I will adopt one after 40-45. I heard kids with one parent usually have more problems than kids who have both but I think being adopted would anyway be better than remaining in an orphanage.
My parents would help me and I plan taking it easier with my job later on. More experience in a job makes you finish your work faster and also determines your clients to be more understanding if you have to go home sooner.
I honestly feel this is a major thing that I need to do.
I would probably marry a guy if he couldn't have kids, as long as he would be ok with adopting one. And ok with having pets. I don't think I would marry someone who did not want kids though, unless he had very good reasons for this choice. (for example your reasons are very good reasons but if he just said "I don't like kids", that wouldn't do).
Yes, it's expected of women to have a great job and also be good mothers and for many the pressure is way too high. It's hard to do both at the same time. I think it's only possible when you have a whole support system based on your parents or your husband's parents and siblings/ close friends who also get involved. Otherwise you simply need a lot of money for baby sitters and after school.
Of course some men also help. 🙂
@fae - I also didn't meet that guy yet ! Last year I didn't even look for him. I felt I was too busy with everything to also find enough time for a relationship but I can see this will probably change sooner or later. I can live alone easily, I almost never feel sad or lonely. But I feel this huge potential for love and at times I think it's not consumed completely on my friends, family and cat. So, I feel good but there is this nagging thought that I could do so much more and that maybe it is somehow my duty to express everything I can.
But there is no sadness, I am much more at peace when I am not in a relationship. I don't really crave for it for the wellbeing it could bring, since I am generally in a good mood anyway. It's more like I feel there is a huge part of my soul that is left unused and I keep asking myself if this is truthful and...authentic and..right. 🙂

[Author]

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