Unseelie Fi Description

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  • #16934
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    It's no secret I have a hard time relating to the main Fi description here, and it seems there's several other Unseelie Fi-leads that do too. I've read the arguments that people strong in Fi seem to be putting up the greatest resistance to being/identifying with Fi because we're looking for a very specific degree of personal resonance in the profile. The more specific the intentionally broad profile is, the least likely an Fi user seem to be willing to accept it, cherry-picking the handful of points we differ on and rejecting the whole profile instead of focusing on the greater pattern of Fi as a whole.
    That's one interpretation, and that indeed could be valid. But an alternative explanation is that of all the CT profiles the Fi one doesn't really capture what Fi "is". Especially to Unseelie Fi users who are growing in number in the community and weren't around when the original Fi profile was formulated. Personally (ha), I'm no stranger to being wrong about my type and correcting my beliefs. I'd misidentified as an Enneagram 5 for years, but within 48 hours of being typed by video as a 9, I accepted 9 as true. But 6 months after getting Fi-lead here, I'm still not convinced. TL;DR: My issue with Fi is the way it's written as a deeply empathic, highly-emotionally permeable, emotion-driven function, plus Unseelie as the broken and damaged version of it, rather than Fi with tinted with Te (quasi Ti) thing.
    So I decided to write what Fi is to me. It's a work-in-progress but I wanted to post it instead of obsessing forever.
    What I think Fi is like (to an Unseelie Fi ** with Ne-colour and possible conscious Te)
    I sense the hidden, unspoken “vibes” of the room or the person in front of me. I sometimes feel like I have a weird psychic “link” to another, that I’m accidentally tuned into the same wavelength as them. I’m great at intuiting other people’s next words and future moves. As if I’m reading your mind (not feeling your heart). If I’m comfortable I’ll try to give voice to my observations: “I sense you’re hesitant, uncertain, anxious etc”. But most of the time I won’t say anything. Instead I’ll silently and subtly tweak how I approach you or the situation to suit what I believe is going on behind the scenes and the future I anticipate unfurling in front of me. I will try to jump onto your wavelength and flow with you, not against you.
    But I don't “feel” or absorb another person's emotions. It’s more of a clinical detached observation from behind a wall. I sense their thoughts and reactions, without feeling the same way in turn myself. I feel very capable of compartmentalising my inner world and my emotional reactions. I can view terrible footage and not feel anything emotionally inside. Rationally, I understand that what I’m seeing may be classified as upsetting, disgusting or vile. I can pick the tone of what’s happening (i.e. not Autistically unable to grasp what's happening) without being swept away with it emotionally. Instead, I’m thinking about why I feel that way. If the word that came to me is “tragic”, then what makes it “tragic” in the first place?  It’s academic, like I’m on the outside or above the situation with a bird’s-eye view. Analysing dispassionately, not empathising emotionally.
    Other people’s outward displays of emotion makes me very uncomfortable and I want to leave. But I’m also curious to think about the why behind the other person’s reactions. If someone has, in my opinion, an irrational emotional outburst, I like to think about the possible various factors that contributed to their reaction: what is their personality, what might be their past experiences that coloured their present interpretations, what is their perspective. Psychoanalysing.  I don’t feel like it’s my problem to deal with their emotions or calm them down. I don’t ever want to be the person anyone leans on for emotional support. I try to rationalise and understand feelings and emotions, without getting personally involved.
    I get very curious about individuals. Someone can fascinate me and I want to break down that puzzle to comprehend the components that make them who they are. I love studying fascinating people, which is partly why I’m drawn to personality psychology. I want frameworks and theories to help me decode myself and human nature.
    I have excellent control over my own feelings and emotions. This is partially why I dislike uncontrolled displays from others. I think, why can’t you pull yourself together? Why are you burdening others with your emotional needs? I see myself as logical, calm, controlled and level-headed. I think before I react and am very self-contained.
    I wouldn’t dare expect anyone to carry my internal burdens. That’s for me to deal with alone. I’m intensely private about my inner thoughts and feelings. I am not an emotional person. I rarely cry. A part of me thinks that no-one else will ever really dig deep enough to “get it”, plus I’m terrible at putting into words what’s going on inside. It’s not that I think I’m a special misunderstood snowflake. I just struggle to articulate my inner world of thought and feeling. It’s beyond language. A foggy internal perception. Sometimes if I start a stream-of-consciousness journal the internal truth will come out, and it will surprise me. Sometimes I get an image or scenario in my mind that represents the situation in a metaphorical or abstract way.
    I’m allergic to public consensus. Anything that’s popular among the general public I probably couldn’t care less about. I like to make up my own mind about things that interest me and I’ll come to experiences in my own sweet time when I’m ready. I don’t care that most people have watched a certain TV show or film, or love a certain song or band. I don’t follow trends. I don’t care if you tell me something’s “really good”. I’ll decide that myself. If I’m into something it’s only because I genuinely like it. Now, I’m not deliberately going against the grain to be difficult or “special”. Sometimes personal interests align with what’s going on in greater society, sometimes they don’t align. I don’t care either way as long as I’m authentic to who I am.
    I’m a perfectionist and a control-freak. I like things a certain way and that’s usually my way. I can be bossy with the way things “should be”. I might listen to your opinion, but ultimately do my own thing. I’m very picky with personal aesthetics. Only certain colours, fabrics, and textures are welcome and I’m very quick to judge appropriateness. I will reorganise a room or office to my tastes if it’s cluttered, disorganised or ineffective. Even if it’s a shared space. I won’t ask, I’ll just do it. I will streamline files, papers, and maximise desk space. Everything will have its place. I go nuts labelling the room. I feel much more peaceful and in control once the space is perfect. I am meticulous about crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s.
    I’m very hard on myself if I underperform. I think if you’re going to do something, do it right the first time. The pressure comes mostly from myself. I don’t care if other people have lower expectations or standards, I will judge based on my personal measure and definition of success and acceptable performance. There’s very little you can say to talk me down from the proverbial ledge when I disappoint myself. People say I’m too hard on myself. I think others don’t try hard enough.
    I have my own set of values, standards and things that I think are important in life that may or may not echo society’s values. For example, I do not value marriage, or organised religion. I will not get a mortgage or have children simply because that’s the expected path for adulthood as defined by society. I will respect your right to follow any of these paths, but I won’t do something just because that’s the “done” thing or the “expected” thing. I hope for the same tolerance and understanding from others in return. My favourite saying is, “you do you”. I have a lot of patience and acceptance for people just trying to be themselves. I feel more tolerant than average to alternate lifestyles, gender-orientations, sexual-orientations, fringe-groups and alternative forms of self-expression. As long as you’re not hurting anyone in the process, I don’t care.
    Decision-making can be easy. I don’t need a factual list of pros and cons, or to forecast every potential future scenario that may evolve from my choices. I don’t need elaborate decision-trees, and I don’t need to ask everyone around me for their opinion or input. An idea or future option will appear to me, and it will just feel right. As if that new facet of my life or that choice fits perfectly into my pre-existing self-concept, like just another puzzle-piece seamlessly slotting into place. It feels as natural and native as everything else already there inside. No tension or worry, no incongruency. It can be something so small as spontaneously deciding to change my hair colour in a dramatic way, to something as large as moving overseas. It feels right.
    Options are either a natural part of me, or not. They quickly take root inside and make themselves at home like they were meant to be there all along, or they just don’t vibe well with me. It feels like things are sorted by “does belong” and “does not belong”. Most experiences are filtered this way: music, songs, films, aesthetics, values, beliefs, ethics, opinions, ideas. As I encounter and experience something, does it naturally and effortlessly soak into my core or does it sit on the outside, like oil floating on water? And if it sits on the outside, why? Can I make sense of it by shifting my perceptions or perspective, or does it just not fit regardless?
    There are exceptions. There’s a time and place for subjectivity and (relative) objectivity and I switch between the most appropriate thought process depending on the context. I don’t have a problem stepping back from my own subjective experience to focus on objective facts, reason and logic when that’s called for.
    I think people would describe me as: difficult to get to know, reserved, shy, quiet, perfectionist, principled, honest, studious, independent, diplomatic, hard-working, sweet, gentle, calm, thoughtful, intelligent, acts with integrity, even-tempered, rational, pessimist, skeptical, truth-seeking, distant, opinionated, difficult to please, snob.

    #16936
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @ladynerdsky
    I love it! It’s perfect and I could have written this myself! 100%

    #16939
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    There's so much to say about this, and I'm so glad you posted it @ladynerdsky ! As you know, the protocol in CT is that the profiles must change according to the samples which represent the vultology -- and so (assuming the vultology is right) this will catalyze such a process because I agree that the current behavioral descriptions don't account for what you've written.  Especially considering that @elisaday (another Fi unseelie) resonate with you and your experience so closely.
    Yes, when the Fi profile was first written the community members that were used as a scaffold were all seelie Fi's (Tori, Frida, Pine, Aux, etc). I now see where exactly the bias is.
    But there's a lot more to unpack here. I also relate to a fair amount of what you wrote above. Bella (also TiNe) does as well, although we both see key differences too. There seems to be a growing congruence in CT overall with the notion that Ji/Je/Pi/Pe functions are more similar to each other than any, because they share the same root.
    So for instance, Ti and Fi may be ~80% alike in their emergent traits/behaviors/preferences, and the final 20% represents the unique elements to Ti and Fi. This is congruent with the current hypothesis that the functions are genetic bifurcations of each other, and Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta differences are a later division of the human species.
    Anyhow, what I mean to say is that not just yours, but other testimonies seem to point to a stronger similarity between Ti/Fi, Te/Fe, Ne/Se and Ni/Si than previously thought. So, many properties currently assigned to Ti are more appropriately Ji, and the profiles of Ti and Fi need to be adjusted accordingly. The Fi profile also needs to lose its seelie bias. But I'm getting ahead of myself...
    Could it be a mistyping?
    First we have to rule out the possibility of mistyping. I went through your original videos again, to see if I hadn't mistyped you, and you still appear Fi/Te to me even by the newly refined standard. But I also revisited @cosmo and, oddly enough, I'm less sure about her. TiNe does seem plausible for her, vultologically. There's something going on that I don't understand and I feel I need more data.
    The codifier has only just been completed, which now allows for any members to do readings by the same set of definitions -- so I am wondering what they'd see? Cosmo, I'm really curious about how you relate to LadyNerd's description above? Is it to all of it? Some of it?
    And any other Ji-leads too, what do you guys think? If I can compare/contrast experiences, we may be able to develop more refined profiles from this.

    #16942
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Things I do and do not relate to:
    - I have never felt a psychic link to anyone, and I am not good at predicting behavior. I do, however, think a LOT about human behavior in a detached way. Almost academic, like you described. I am not very concerned with how people feel on a large scale ethical basis, I'm mostly concerned with how individuals work and relate to the people / world around them.
    - I am also made uncomfortable by large outward displays of emotion, they feel almost faked to me. I feel very uncomfortable in general when people lose control of themselves, as I am controlling myself and my emotions at all times automatically. I am also excellent at controlling my emotions.
    - I used to hate public consensus, but now it really doesn't hold much weight in my mind. People like what they like!
    - I also don't like burdening people with my stuff, but I've gotten much better expressing myself as I've gotten older, and now see the value in processing with others.
    - I am a perfectionist as well, but also have given myself more room to rest as I've gotten older.
    - I agree with all the self-descriptors you wrote, but I'll add that people often describe me as goofy and outgoing at times (which is surprising to my vision of myself). I've also been told that I'm a very good listener, and very good at 'untying the knots of the mind'. People often come to me if they're keyed up and confused, and I'll usually be able to give them the tools to calm themselves.
     
    I guess I'd say that overall, the theme here is a deep familiarity with how emotions and people work, and how to hone them into stable, useful, and controllable entities. Not in a robotic way, but in a fulfilling way. It makes sense that I personally have always had a deep interest in psychotherapy. I think Fi may have something to do with personal growth, and unseelie Fi stops being concerned with how that growth occurs. Maybe you have to hurt people along the way to self-actualize positively.
    EDIT: Oooh here's a thought - Fi is constantly accruing data for a compass process to always point towards self-actualization maybe? Or something similar?
    ANOTHER EDIT: Sorry, I'm at work but I keep thinking of stuff! I'm very good at noticing intrinsically when other people are emotionally unhealthy, like falling into the traps of their personality or being controlled by life, not the other way around. Almost like I can almost immediately tell how far someone is from the top of Maslow's pyramid, or emotionally immature. I always thought everyone could do this, but through the years I've gathered that I'm one of the only people I've met that can (which sounds concieted, I know). I don't know if it's because of Fi, or because I've done extensive intentional work on myself with various self-growth tools and practices.
    THIRD EDIT: I'm a nightmare haha sorry everyone! Another thought - whenever I familiarize myself with a new psychological framework that I deem useful and plausable, I spend most of my time thinking about it and diagnosing everyone around me with it, including myself. My thoughts become "oh, I'm certainly an Internalizer," or "this person is probably an unhealthy type 3, based on such and such evidence," or I'm reading peoples faces and behaviors thinking "you seem like an Se user," or "you seem Unseelie to me." I very very rarely share these thoughts with others. When I do, I feel embarrassed and very judgy, or I worry that I've boiled down an entire complex human being to a number between 1 and 9, but still, I continue to have these trains of thought almost all the time.

    #16947
    a.k.a.Janie
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    So, how I relate to the original post?
    Well, might be my cherry-picking tendencies, but I do feel like I relate to parts of it to various degrees.

    • I believe I'm more emotional than this description, also since I have so much cognitive empathy (although this kind of thing was described under Seelie Fi).
    • Then there's this, which I think I match:

    If I’m comfortable I’ll try to give voice to my observations: “I sense you’re hesitant, uncertain, anxious etc”. But most of the time I won’t say anything. Instead I’ll silently and subtly tweak how I approach you or the situation to suit what I believe is going on behind the scenes and the future I anticipate unfurling in front of me. I will try to jump onto your wavelength and flow with you, not against you.

    However, I'm not able to know how my ability to adapt myself to my estimation of another person's mental/emotional state of mind actually compares to anyone else's, whether it's LadyNerdsky's, or anyone else of the same or different type.
    Some other comparisons & contrasts:

    • I actually kind of like being the person people go to to tell all their sob stories to, because their other friends don't like to be brought down by it. As long as I'm not being used. And over text is better. I'm terrible at affective empathy, although emotional displays don't bother me per se. (Someone once told me they thought I had mild undiagnosed ASD. I thought about getting tested, but tbh I don't see anything I stand to gain by a diagnosis, plus I agree with Auburn's opinion on the matter.)
    • I'm very curious about other individuals mostly in that I wish I could know what it's like to be them, compared to myself that I am now. Like, I wish I knew what a "neutral" state of consciousness was, and how similar people really are to me inside, etc.
    • I generally don't feel psychicly linked to others (with a few possible exceptions). But I do highly relate to what they say about Fi leads' ability to 'hear what is not being said', i.e. to listen to someone and be able to fill in when they are thinking something but decide to leave it out, based on the circumstances and their motives and feelings about them. This is primarily how my "bullshit detector" works, by sensing people's hidden motives and hearing cues in their voice (tone, pitch, cadence, word choice, etc.) when they say and don't say certain things in certain situations. How well it works for me, though is highly dependent on what kind of situation it is vis-à-vis my previous experiences I have in Fi and their intensities. Sometimes, I can gauge how emotionally healthy people are, like Alice said.

    I have my own set of values, standards and things that I think are important in life that may or may not echo society’s values. For example, I do not value marriage, or organised religion. I will not get a mortgage or have children simply because that’s the expected path for adulthood as defined by society. I will respect your right to follow any of these paths, but I won’t do something just because that’s the “done” thing or the “expected” thing. I hope for the same tolerance and understanding from others in return. My favourite saying is, “you do you”. I have a lot of patience and acceptance for people just trying to be themselves. I feel more tolerant than average to alternate lifestyles, gender-orientations, sexual-orientations, fringe-groups and alternative forms of self-expression. As long as you’re not hurting anyone in the process, I don’t care.

    This I totally agree with. Only thing is, "you do you" sounds like it might come across as dismissive or condescending, so I might say more like "to each, his own" or "live and let live."
     
    And (quoting from Alice:)

    Fi is constantly accruing data for a compass process to always point towards self-actualization maybe? Or something similar?

    I do feel like, at the end of the day, that is the case for me. Or maybe towards the virtues to aspire to, living the best life, understanding life, or something like that.

    #16950
    Cosmo
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Directive

    @Auburn Thank you for bringing this to my attention! While I relate to some of @ladynerdsky's description here, I don't relate to all of it. That's interesting you are revisiting profiles, and with mine, I have to say that I relate more to TiNe, and that I take a detached observer stance when interacting with the world. Also, I did mention when I sent you the third video via email, that I had a near fatal bicycle crash where I smashed my face in, which affected and damaged some of the nerves around my mouth, which might have something to do with certain microexpressions, like my lips moving up the left side of my face more since the right side was more damaged.
    I want to say that this a great description of Fi, very concise and organized, especially from an Unseelie perspective, which should definitely be taken into account. I do think the Fi description should be reworked/refined and have separate parts for Seelie and Unseelie, since they are so different imo. Your Te shines through in this description. It's interesting to read your posts, and looking back at our interactions with each other, where our thought processes differs. I still think it's more obvious that I'm TiNe, and many people in my circle would agree.
    I've never related to the Fi description, especially in regards to permeability, sensitivity or empathic abilities. I've never felt in touch with my emotions or the emotional atmosphere of the room or others. I actually get annoyed when something or someone tries to appeal to my emotions rather than logic, and I notice when dealing with others, I tend to try to appeal to their logic, which doesn't always work. I process my emotions by thinking through them, from a detached analytical point of view. I struggle with understanding others' emotions and sometimes my own. Whenever someone is upset about something I usually approach the situation by giving advice to solve the problem, because that's what I would want, rather than emotional comfort or sympathy. As I've gotten older I've learned most people don't appreciate that, unless they directly ask for advice. Behavior and psychology have always fascinated me because I've struggled with reading others or getting along with certain personalities, especially when it comes to their emotions. When people are more emotionally expressive I am not too affected by it, unless they are demanding an emotional response from me, in which case I tend to shut off because it feels intrusive or forced. When people are emotionally expressive I tend to want to know why and understand their personality code. Usually during stressful or "negative" situations, people's true colors tend to show more easily, so it's like seeing a rare moment of truth leaking out behind the mask. But sometimes people just complain to gain pity, which I see as burdensome, and I tend to retreat from that. I've also struggled to relating to the Te description. Anything to do with making money, business, etc, is super foreign and weird to me. I brought up Te because on my vultology report, Te signals were 1 shy of my Fi and Ne signals, plus Auburn confirmed I was "INTP variant" with Ti ego.
    I do relate to the bit of your description in that I don't like to burden others with my emotions, but I understand that humans are emotional beings, and sometimes emotions come out unpredictably and at inopportune times, and I like to deal with them as soon as possible, because I see them as problems (or warnings) to be fixed and dealt with, and if they are just shoved back down then they fester and may manifest in the body as illness or may create other problems such as resentment. I think emotional/social intelligence is just as important as intellectual intelligence, otherwise there will be unbalance. I don't like it when people lean on me for emotional support because it's difficult for me to do on demand, unless they know that I will approach the situation from a detached manner and that I will most likely try to solve instead of soothe. However, the older I get and the more loss I've experienced, I realize there is something to be gained to just let the emotions go and just sit in them, rather than control them. My partner recently lost his mother, and I've had to be more emotionally present and supportive and come to terms with my own emotions while dealing with grief. He also lost his younger brother a few years ago, plus I've had to face my own unresolved trauma, that I think I'm more comfortable in general with emotions than I used to be, and I try to be more present with experiencing them and being in my body, rather than in my head all the time. But I do still tend to think through my emotions, so it's a work in progress.
    When it comes to public consensus and conformity, I would say I'm generally unaffected by it, however, I do notice social and political trends. I am sometimes drawn to them, sometimes to see what the fuss is about and out of curiosity. But I don't like religion, holidays, traditions or other things that are expected of me, because most of them are unnecessary or pointless. While I see the institution of marriage as outdated and limiting with roots in patriarchal ideology, I'm also somewhat romantic and like the idea of celebrating my love with someone. When I was younger that pull was stronger, and I think for me it has to do with feeling worthy, etc. I don't like the expectation of taking the man's name at all, since it has roots in women being treated as property. I understand if women want to and choose to take the man's last name, however.
    I think people should be allowed to express themselves, explore different sexualities and genders. People should be allowed to be themselves as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. I think it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be the same. When it comes to values, I would say when it comes to certain things I have my own set of opinions, but if presented with alternatives that sound reasonable or objectively better, than I will change my position, especially if it provokes me to think about things from a different philosophical stand point. I don't think most things are so black and white, rather they have nuance and lots of grey areas that require philosophical exploration and are constantly changing and progressing. I enjoy sparking these types of discussions, because they can cause others to reflect on their own ideals and values, as well as my own. I think opinions and values are so personal and require a combination of both subjective and objective ideals, ie philosophy and ethics. I always try to take a neutral stance unless it's something I feel strongly about or want to spark a discussion, but even then I don't mind discussing or entertaining different view points. I will say, I tend to favor logical arguments over emotional ones, but it depends on the topic.
    When it comes to making decisions I typically make a list of pros and cons and try to consider all avenues, unless it's something that has an obvious objectively best route, then it's not even a question. But I do tend to doubt if I've made the right decision, so I like to be certain. I'm not as organized as I'd like to be, and it brings me comfort to compartmentalize things, putting them in their proper place/box with a label. It makes it feel more precise, consistent and accurate and that I'm in control and competent.
    I can be particular about things as well, but I'm also willing to try new things before being so quick to judge. Sometimes I'll be annoyed with something or someone at first, but then as times goes on they will grow on me. I can be rather experimental in this regard, especially with my hair, makeup, clothes, and most satisfyingly my art. I feel most free when I create art. It's my own way of releasing my emotions without having to think or talk about them. I also feel release during exercise. It makes me feel in control of my life and more in touch with my body and essence, which I think I neglect on a regular basis. I do tend to struggle with keeping my living area clutter free. My desk and room are usually messy. However, when it comes to keeping things "clean" I'm quite good at that. The kitchen and bathroom are spotless, but there is more clutter than I would like.
    I'm not sure how people would describe me. I tend to think I'm more present and involved than I actually am, because I often get feedback that I'm detached or that they miss me, wish we could interact more, etc, when it already feels like I'm giving so much. Most of the time I'm too in my head to realize. Anyway, I hope this was helpful. Let me know if you want me to clarify anything. I suppose I can always make another video if we need more data.
    Edit: I wanted to mention that even though CT and Enneagram are separate systems and don't necessarily correlate, I was officially typed as 5w6 593 so/sx. The Fi description, especially Seelie, is the opposite of everything type 5, whereas type 5 is more in alignment with Ti. Also, so/sx may come across as more Fi in quality, especially since I am artistic.

    #16953
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Cosmo, this is great to read, thanks so much for sharing.
    Yes, I see the differences in your writeup and LadyNerd here, despite the similarities. And I do think you're TiNe now, after having finalized the signals it's visible to me that there was an over-reliance on just a few Fi markers, which is the sort of confirmation bias the new methodology should cancel out going forward. But just to be sure I'll run it by other readers first.
    (so much more is crystallizing right now, but i have to write more later, as it's 2am where i am rn!)

    #16954
    Cosmo
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Directive

    @Auburn, I'm excited to read more of your thoughts, as well as what other readers think. I love that things are coming to light and solidifying! I am also curious if you think I have adaptive or directive Fe. I am leaning more towards directive, but I'd have to read more about it to be sure.

    #16955
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I'm sorry to keep posting on this thread, and I'll keep it short, but I just wanna say that after reading Janie's post a few things popped out at me:
    - I am also very emotional, and actually do relate to the emotional pallette sentiment in the Fi description. I just keep a handle on all those discreet emotions.
    - I very much relate to feeling 'what is not said' and being able to tell where people's feelings and thought processes come from very easily. "Well of course you have a problem with being assertive, after having such overbearing parents," etc etc.
    - I'm also a very empathetic person, and if I don't keep an eye on myself, I actually can and will accidentally take on the emotions of others. Id describe it probably as permeability, but it isn't automatic and it only happens when the person in front of me is in a state of emotional contagion (as happens in emotionally immature people).
    Sorry to keep fuckin saying shit! Just trying to be as exhaustive as possible.

    #16959
    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I don't feel like I am properly typed and reading the things that others write is helping me determine where there is a personal misunderstanding, bias, mistyping, etc. I have wanted to be more involved on the site but do not feel like my typing or how others with FiNe Unseelie have communicated their experiences to be. Finally, instead of hiding on the other side of the screen, I'm reaching out.
    I feel very close to others emotionally, even strangers. I can feel the energy they give off and make adjustments in real time to create smoother interactions. I am able to predict (extremely accurately) what their motivations are, what they are thinking and feeling, what they need in that moment and long-term. I find it easy to be able to plant seeds towards that need.
    I once heard someone describe feeling like they were an emotional paint bucket. Their bucket was full of white paint and everyone else's had color. If just one drop of that other color got into the white, it was no longer white. I feel this way. The emotions of others are really loud to me and seem to splash around. Many people are going through life with aching hearts, rage, regrets, etc. After years of working on things to create a lid, strangers rarely contaminate my color, but people/animals/things that I care about do. I accept this though since it is a part of humanity and our greatest strengths are also our greatest challenges.
    I feel a natural affinity to other people, animals, plants...even ecosystems. I feel like I have an intuitive understanding of what they are communicating, mostly through body language or the observation of their outputs. I experience immense joy in tweaking inputs to get healthier and happier outputs. In a sick chicken, I will see the way they carry their body, notice small changes in their daily cycles, etc. If anything is off, I intuitively know what they need to feel better. Same with the people around me. I can see the smallest micro-expression in those around me and delight in helping others feel better.
    Throughout my life I have never been to hide my feelings. If you don't know me, then you may not realize that I am attempting to hide them until in a safe space where I can feel those feelings and process what happened. If you do know me then you see right through my physical tics and mental glitching. I am very exhausted by conflict and prefer to find consensus so there is social harmony. I will not find consensus at the expense of my own health and happiness, but I am very flexible with reevaluating what brings me joy. I am also stubborn to hold firm to my boundaries so that I can preserve my mental and emotional stability/health.
    Being emotionally available and practicing vulnerability are things I hold very highly. Being able to share my feelings and life experiences and have them given space and compassion are some of the most intimate connections we can have with each other. This isn't something that I do with everyone, but with people who I sense can show up and be there with me. One of the biggest compliments I can receive is to have people feel safe with me and open themselves up in the same way.
    Being forced to conform is something no one should feel. I feel that on whole, being a part of a community or group of people does require some basic standards. Don't swear in front of kids, don't beat people up, etc., but I don't feel like most people are forced to be someone they aren't, unless they are lawless criminals 😉 On the other side of that, no one will be completely excepted if they share absolutely everything about themselves. There needs to be some reading of the situation. There will always be stupid things that many people adopt to "fit in", but I would argue that they don't need to watch those shows or listen to that music to be a part of that community. In the past, people would try to get me into something that they liked, but I thought was junk. It never offended me since I assume they wanted to make a connection via that show, band, movie, etc. (I still don't get Big Bang Theory or Beyonce.)
    When it comes to orderliness, I have some room for growth. It isn't something that I prioritize. I see it's value because having your resources where you need them when you need them makes things more pleasant and usable. I do have a desire for a clean kitchen, but clutter doesn't bother me all that much. What does get me is that I have zero tolerance for the neglect of living things be they houseplants or children. When you make the commitment to open your life and home to a living thing, it is serious that you show up.
    I’m am careful of what I take on and commit myself to since I am prone to putting my best/all into anything I do take on. On some things I have higher standards, but on others I don't. Who the work will impact makes a major difference on things. Are there kids involved? I give more. Am I tube feeding a bird and it will die if I mess up? Perfectionism will appear. Sewing a dress for myself? Close enough is good enough.
    As a child, I adopted my set of values from the shows Mr. Rogers and Little House on the Prairie. As an adult I have found these moral foundations to be solid. I add to them with observations and experiences. These morals are not always mainstream in the U.S., but they are in different areas of the world. My main values are: be kind to yourself, others, animals, the planet, and beyond; and treat things with respect and with a long vision in mind, not short-term or financial benefits. Marriage, religion, dietary choices, and the like are up to each individual. I am not bothered by what others chose for themselves so long as there isn't an expectation for others to be forced into compliance or treated as less than if they don't. For example, you can be Christian, but don't treat me poorly for not being one.
    When making decisions, my mind as a master list of potential outcomes. My subconscious will then go through and vet them, slowly discarding until I have a short list of 2-3 options. That short list is transferred to my working memory and I make a temporary decision that is not made final until I have input from those it will impact or those whose opinion I trust. If there is agreement, great! If not, why? Is it an argument that makes sense? I will then attempt to create a hybrid alternative and retain both original ideas. We then have a conversation and there is almost always consensus. I use this for little and big things, personal and collective.
    When I encounter or experience something I don't initially make a judgment on it. It is almost added to a subconscious database where it is processed. If over the course of days to a month, I find it to be useful or to contain truth, it will be added to my conscious mind or trusted database of info. If it isn't useful or containing a truth that speaks to me, it is discarded and usually never picked up again. Going forward, I will have a bias to not absorb/reject this pre-processed information since it didn't pass the initial test of having value to me...though it will remain in another part of my mind for its potential use in helping others.
    During conflict I step back from myself and take in the perspective of everyone involved. It can come across as self-doubting, but it is motivated by understanding other people's motivations and where I may be overlooking my own bias.
    People describe me as: emotionally available, open, friendly, passionate, well informed, kind, thoughtful, sensitive, spiritual, intuitive, old-soul, self-aware, present, compassionate, empathetic, approachable, gentle, caring, nurturing, handy, and selfless to a fault (If someone needs something it is done quickly, if I need something it might be neglected for prolonged amounts of time).
    General thoughts:
    I have heard several people of different types discuss the ability to feel the emotional temperature of a room. Is it related to Fi when others with Fe lower in their stacks also discuss sensing it? There doesn't seem to be a clear delineation between the feeling types. I sometimes envision Feeling as on a spectrum and maybe Fi and Fe are closer than initially assumed to be. Emotionally and mentally healthy people are often able to tap into both types of feeling and that is what therapy encourages and teaches. Maybe whole humans need to develop both?
    Do Fi leads value individual contentment over social harmony? Isn't it possible to be authentic in either case? It seems many/most high Fi users are quirky, independent, express themselves through art, etc. How are high Fe users showing up? Is there a cleaner way of seeing each preference?
    Can injuries that impact the way you are able to move your mouth/face capable of changing the way you metabolize your feelings?
    Does anyone else feel mistyped? If so, why?

    #17071
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    When I first read @LadyNerdsky's Fi description I quite enthusiastically agreed with every word, but I've taken some time to reflect and speak in person with others of my type. My mission here is to get down to the skeleton of Fi's "is-ness" that separates it from general Ji and unifies both Seelie and Unseelie. In the meantime I've also been re-typed from Unseelie to Seelie, so realistically I'm likely in the middle of the spectrum. It's also been brought to my attention by quite a few people that there's some Ti/Fe signals mixed in with my overall FiSe vultology as well, and I do relate more to the Ti/Fe descriptions than the Fi/Te.
    That being said I can't deny there are a few aspects of the Fi descriptions I can find evidence of existing within some of the artwork I've created or some other outward mode of expression even if I may not identify with the themes philosophically. Most notably is the stripping away of societal influence and uncovering the feral inner core. It's the way it's written that I found unrelatable, but the essence of what's being said sneaks up from time to time when I look in the mirror. I always say you shouldn't really type people based on what they say about themselves anyway. Typically you'll find me describing myself based on how the majority have described me over time, and when I see people writing exhaustively long paragraphs describing themselves I wonder how they can be so sure it's all really true.
    I told Auburn I would comb through LadyNerdsky's description and analyze the level of my own relatability in line-by-line detail, but I doubt the effectiveness of this approach. Instead I'm going to write about a simple pattern I've picked up amongst others of my own type regardless of heart attitude and development levels:
    It seems what I have in common with other FiSe is we tend to identify with exploring the side of life we tend to describe as "haunting." It's like we mentally collect songs, poems, stories, films, etc that contain this specific element and drown in it over and over again. It can be like an addictive drug and perhaps a bit self-indulgent, even alienating, when overdone.
    Over time and with maturity I have learned to regulate this tendency to maintain a healthy balance to avoid slipping into a spiral of catharsis. It can be a challenge to allow other types of "vibes" to penetrate my inner world and taint this carefully crafted aesthetic, but I can now understand the benefit in doing so.
    People often wonder if I'm actually TiSe or NiTe when they see how I interact in text, and all my life I've been told I think too much and am quite heady. People would also describe me as extremely emotional and would say things impact me on a very deep level. At the same time people also describe me as far stronger and more resilient than I look. They say I surprise them in my ability to stay cool under pressure and level-headed in times of crisis. This is likely due to Ji's tendency to disengage and over-analyze problems in a solution-oriented manner just like Ti would. In my case I tend to over-focus on solving problems with interpersonal drama and inner turmoil, and whatever crisis of the day. The presence of most people and having to accommodate them overwhelm me and take up so much of my headspace that I must isolate in order to re-connect to my personal center and think clearly again.
    It's my personal belief that when most people think of Fi they are thinking of PeFi, which is very different than FiPe. Maybe this is because PeFi are more abundant and therefore people tend to have more experience with them than with Fi leads. Perhaps it's because Fi leads tend to remain more in the shadows while PeFi stand out. Whatever the reason, Pe is an irrational function while Fi is rational. It seems counterintuitive to think of Fi as a rational function, but it would have to be to still incorporate all of the elements of Ji.
    Auburn has mentioned we should attempt to compartmentalize emotions away from Cognitive Type signals and refer to them more as Enneagram signals, which is exactly the direction the MBTI community has taken. I'm not sure that would be necessary, however. Personally I don't relate to the parts of the Fi descriptions that talk about being disgust sensitive, but I also don't really show disgust signals in my vultology. My most unmistakable Fi signal is my unbridled radiation, and internally I do feel overtaken by bubbling emotions fairly often and do my best to keep them contained so as not to appear too vulnerable. Hiding them is possible when writing on the internet, but in person my face and body will betray me much to my chagrin. This is interesting to me and shouldn't be ignored. Perhaps descriptions can be custom-tailored to people based on specific signals they are actually showing instead of a one-size-fits-all. Fi comes in many flavors, and some are spicier or sweeter than others. One thing we can all seem to agree on is no one really understands Fi's emotions, not even the Fi user 😛

    #17075
    GreenCoyote
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Although not a Fi lead i have found that i really relate to Ne and Se descriptions equally. I’m pretty sure i am still Pe lead but have some confusion about possibly using Ne more than Se simply because i am not as in tune with my body in an action oriented sense. Some other things in Ne also seem very closely related to me. Is it possible functions can minic each other or maybe there is a sliding scale of how much different versions of Pe can be in someones psyche?
    i know auburn you were pretty sure i used Se and Ti byt is it possible i use Ne and Ti?

    #17084
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn "There seems to be a growing congruence in CT overall with the notion that Ji/Je/Pi/Pe functions are more similar to each other than any, because they share the same root."
    I agree. The initial profile sent when I got my report (that might be more JiPe focused?) is more accurate than the main Fi one. And there might be cross-contamination, where the Ti profile (that makes more sense to me than Fi) represents the essence of Ji far more than Fi, therefore most Ji’s “see themselves” in Ti above Fi because of the ~80% similarity. The profiles might not have pinpointed that 20% differences that bifurcate the Ji functions.
    "You still appear Fi/Te to me even by the newly refined standard."
    You’re right. Regardless of seeing Ti as more true than Fi by the site description, I have no doubts that Fi/Te is the right axis. I’m glad @cosmo is revised to TiNe. Having “known” her online for a while, that really fits her well.

    @alice
    @janie "I have never felt a psychic link to anyone, and I am not good at predicting behavior"
    I wonder if that’s an Ne vs Se difference, with Ne or intuition in general forecasting and predicting from impressions and patterns (Alice, your edits are great, and I do the things you mentioned there too!). I differ from both of you in the emotionality. I was raised in a very stoic home where nobody expressed emotions ever, so maybe it’s a learned response in me.
    "Fi is constantly accruing data for a compass process to always point towards self-actualization maybe? Or something similar?"
    This is similar to a discussion on Discord I think. Some of us were talking about getting physically and mentally sick from doing something that goes against our essential “true” nature. It seems impossible to force myself to do something that violates an important value. The dissonance starts to make my nervous system blow-up, my anxiety escalates, I get depressed etc. When I’m in alignment I feel fine and when the compass starts pointing the wrong way I feel sick. Examples are bad careers and enforcing policies that I disagree with morally.

    @cosmo
    "Whenever someone is upset about something I usually approach the situation by giving advice to solve the problem, because that’s what I would want, rather than emotional comfort or sympathy."
    Guilty of this one too. I’ve had to catch myself in the act and force some empathic phrases out to validate their “feelings”. It's only in my 30s that I've softened up and attempted support and sympathy.
    "When it comes to values, I would say when it comes to certain things I have my own set of opinions, but if presented with alternatives that sound reasonable or objectively better, than I will change my position, especially if it provokes me to think about things from a different philosophical stand point. I don’t think most things are so black and white, rather they have nuance and lots of grey areas that require philosophical exploration and are constantly changing and progressing. I enjoy sparking these types of discussions, because they can cause others to reflect on their own ideals and values, as well as my own. I think opinions and values are so personal and require a combination of both subjective and objective ideals, ie philosophy and ethics."
    Nailed it. It makes me think that Ji in general doesn’t work in absolutes. While I see some things as “belong” and “doesn’t belong”, I find it hard to see pure black and white. My answers are usually it’s complicated, and it depends. I might say from perspective x it makes sense that y is the solution, but if you look at perspective z they’re seeing g. I wouldn’t go so far as to study philosophy or formalise a specific moral framework to guide this (like Chidi in The Good Place). Instead I attempt to get into the heads and perspectives of the various individuals or groups involved to guide an opinion. Logic can absolutely change my mind and is the most effective. Appealing to my emotions will not.
    @coralie-philips Hi! Great to see you here participating. Love the paint-pot analogy. That paint paragraph you wrote is partly why I used to identify as INFJ for a while (and identify today as more INTx in temperament). Lots of things you wrote here remind me of @pine who’s also FiNe (but II—and Seelie). You sound more Seelie based on the things you wrote here?? What do you feel your type is?

    @elisaday
    I’m glad you’ve add more on your perspective. Seelie suits you well from what I’ve seen on chat and that most recent video too. Way more bashful radiation than I expected! I liked reading your experience of FiSe. As others have said, it’s hard to parse out what’s Fi from what I wrote versus Fi mixed with Ne and even Te (which I swear is conscious). The other FiSe comments above so far have echoed a more open emotionality like yourself.
    Maybe Se gives a more gritty and visceral realism to the Fi inner experience whereas Ne keeps it ghostly, impressionistic and abstracted?

    #17124
    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I was really shocked when I received the feedback on my type! I was typed as FiNe III unseelie and flat affect, which still feels SO far off the mark! I realized that I don't show up on video the way I do irl. I've had so many cringes from loved ones that have watched the videos I submitted. With that in mind, I probably came across that way, but I think that's why it's important to be cautious when typing people. And I think if someone contests the results, maybe there's something to it? Especially if they don't feel like they lead with Ji but Je...or the like.
    In my daily life, I am far from flat affect and I am glad that there is less of an emphasis on that labeling. I'm sure it is helpful to many, but it really insulted me and hurt my feelings for a few days. Additionally, I am not a double introvert. I'm too lively and gregarious. I believe that my husband is an FiNe I, seelie heart though comes across as unseelie. So is one of my dear friends, though she is flat affect as well. I'm drawn to something in this personality type that offers balance to my own. I am well known for desperately needing something for years but prioritizing someone's want quickly. I am learning to use a bit of the Fi to bring a healthier aspect to myself in that regard. And the feedback I receive from my husband and friend is that I teach them to get outside of themselves, think of others, the greater picture, spirituality, etc.
    My entire life I have felt with every molecule of my being that there needs to be harmony and consensus around me for me to feel content. I could never run my opinion over those of others...even if I think those others are in error. Instead, I create a well constructed argument and then make it as gentle and palatable as possible. Nearly every time I am able to sway others and those people are happier with my idea once they get over their fears of change or the unknown. I hate the Fe description on CT which makes it seem that those who use Fe are transactional with everything. It sounds really gross and judgmental without empathetic understanding. I do feel like I go through life via Fe more than Fi...but I think the description for Fi is lovely and beautiful while the Fe description sounds borderline sociopathic. I don't believe that the delineation between the feeling functions is accurate or inclusive. I believe having folks that lead with the functions that are both Seelie/Adaptive and Unseelie/Directive could help flesh things out.
    Something that has bothered me a lot is the concept of Seelie/Adaptive and Unseelie/Directive. It seems like they are trying to stab into the mental health of the person, but miss the mark. Seelie/Adaptive could be pushovers, passive aggressive, backstabbing and shit-stirrers. And Unseelie/Directive could be overly aggressive, demanding, unable to connect emotionally, and bullies. But really none of that is healthy. It may be an unnecessary addition to the typing that doesn't add a lot of value and causes harm or for some to feel more hopeless than they need to. I think people know if they are too willing to let others walk over them, avoid conflict, be too aggressive, etc. If there is to be something that measures this, it needs to be different. I think it is a simple either/or when put into these two boxes, when we are all complicated beings, doing our best to get through life and using the tools that have helped us get this far. Additionally, the descriptions of Seelie and Adaptive seem like what we all want to be while Unseelie/Directive is the consultation prize of a failed emotional attempt. I am feeling judgmental about this because I think any reasonable mental health professional would encourage a different metric.
    I show up in the world open and ready to interact with those around me. I have space for other people's stories and have always been approached by strangers unburdening their fears and sorrows. I appreciate being able to fulfill this role and show up for those around me...so long as they don't need a crutch 😉
    I have two brothers, both PeJi. My youngest brother leads strongly with Ne and is a software designer. He is able to see 10+ options when others see only one and has done well by taping into this ability. My other brother leads with Se is able to see into the future and predict what the inevitable conclusion will be. He hates imagining things and is far more logical. He felt drawn to excavation and at 39 years old is about become the leader of the company he works at. The current owner is passing his own sons and instead trusting my brother with the succession (I hope my brother finds a good books person as he is AWFUL with that aspect ;)) Of my two brothers, the Se lead and I speak the same language and are able to get onto the same page instantly. My Ne lead brother and I have to ask clarifying questions and create context for the other until we get on the same wavelength. If I had developed Ne, would I be more whimsical, like my Ne brother? Wouldn't I live in what-ifs or what could be?
    Though I have fondness for the gamma and delta folks I don't feel an intuitive kinship. Our interests and modes of communicating are a little different...it doesn't feel like we have a lingua franca. For example, I don't understand the desire to look for answers in things like Tarot when the power is within us. I know that many people feel Tarot pulls this out, but to me it feels more like "leading the witness"or uses the concept of fate or divine intervention...or maybe I just don't get it. I have tried it several times and it has never struck a chord in me. Absolutely no offense to anyone who uses those tools, it just doesn't ring true to me.
    My mom is an SiTe and my stepson is clearly a TeSi, but I feel uneasy with this function. They seem to see something in me that they are lacking of feel they need. Actually every Te lead or secondary that I have ever met in person either is rude and rejecting of me or comes across as needing a soul healing and looks to me for help...though that may just be that their Fi is waking up? It confuses me.
    Have you ever watched the Super Soul Sunday interviews between Oprah and Brené Brown? I think those clearly show two differing ways of processing information; Fe vs Te. I feel like I understand Oprah (she wants everyone to have the information, understand it, and be able to use it for themselves and everyone else) and need to switch my mind's channel to understand Brené (she communicates scientific concepts, adds in awkward "relateable" humor, and is more focused on how she's used this in her own life). Each wants the same thing, difference in the ability to share and help others with the information. Brené speaks to the mind and Oprah to the heart and soul.
    I always enjoy reading what you write and hearing what you think of things. Thank you for reading my ramblings...I've tried to make it flow into something somewhat coherent. I have read and read articles and forum posts looking to understand the gist of things and have accumulated a lot of feelings and thoughts in the process.
    Also, thank you for reaching out <3

    #17125
    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, with all of that I forgot, I see the world and operate out of ENF more than any of the other temperaments.

    #17127
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Something that has bothered me a lot is the concept of Seelie/Adaptive and Unseelie/Directive. It seems like they are trying to stab into the mental health of the person, but miss the mark. Seelie/Adaptive could be pushovers, passive aggressive, backstabbing and shit-stirrers. And Unseelie/Directive could be overly aggressive, demanding, unable to connect emotionally, and bullies. But really none of that is healthy. It may be an unnecessary addition to the typing that doesn’t add a lot of value and causes harm or for some to feel more hopeless than they need to. I think people know if they are too willing to let others walk over them, avoid conflict, be too aggressive, etc.


    @Cedar
    - I very much enjoyed reading through your post, and I hope you’ll forgive my intrusion into the Fi domain here, but I felt the desire to push back on this a bit as it relates to all types by virtue of the “Heartitudes”. I thought you did an excellent job of summarizing the negative aspects of the F attitudes, but I very much disagree that including these negative aspects in their descriptions is of little value, or that people are more aware than unaware of their faults in these dimensions. What I do know is that more than a few members (of differing Quadras and devs) here have expressed and continue to express the desire to find the balance between the F attitudes, having come to an understanding that both extremes of the pendulum are unhealthy and counter-productive; perhaps as stated in the OP, it is the Unseelie Fi description in particular which is lacking something, and this thread is attempting to work that out.

    I think it is a simple either/or when put into these two boxes, when we are all complicated beings, doing our best to get through life and using the tools that have helped us get this far. Additionally, the descriptions of Seelie and Adaptive seem like what we all want to be while Unseelie/Directive is the consultation prize of a failed emotional attempt. I am feeling judgmental about this because I think any reasonable mental health professional would encourage a different metric.

    I would definitely agree with you that at the very least the F attitudes should indicate Unseelie>Seelie, etc. when displayed on the profiles rather than simply displaying one or the other, as the general understanding is that everyone has both F attitudes, but they’re almost never on “equal” display in consciousness. And to speak to the last point in the text above, I do believe a sort of “disclaimer” could be included as standard in the member reports such that people are made more immediately aware that having markers of Flat Affect doesn’t mean you are doomed to go through every day in a depressive fog, or that being labeled Unseelie>Seelie means your daydreams consist of only HR Giger designs. But as you’ve said, labels will never be able to do justice to a full image of “personhood”, nor should they be expected to, but I am in support of the idea that there could be some slight improvements made in the way the labels are displayed and understood.

    #17129
    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I know that the Big 5 Personaility Types aren't as embraced here, and I agree it lacks a lot and is slanted rather negatively. How do you feel about people to are typed as Seelie but their Big 5 shows them as low in compassion? Or the opposite? Several Fi folks are typed this way. To be the devil's advocate, what is the value if it doesn't correspond to how someone shows up in life? Does Seelie = only Openness to experiences? What about the qualities under Extroversion (friendly and cheerful)and Agreeableness (altruism, morality, cooperation sympathy, trust)?
    I really don't get this stuff. There seems to be a steep learning curve and not a lot of clean, current info.

    #17130
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I absolutely agree that CT as it stands today can have a steep learning curve, and a lack of concise, synthesized, current info that’s easy for a general audience to understand. Unfortunately the cloning process for Auburn hasn’t been fully streamlined yet 😝... but in all seriousness, a lack of available synthesis for the most current info was something which irked me quite a bit when I first joined, and though it’s far from an ideal solution, for the time being we have threads like these and discussions on the Discord that attempt to synthesize the current understandings.
    In terms of Big 5 correlations with CT, that’s still in the realm of the purely speculative for me. Perhaps J is correlated with Conscientiousness and P with Openness, but even that’s nothing I could confidently stand behind right now. CT has made huge strides, but it’s still far from reaching full maturation I would say. Another way to look at it is that there’s still a lot of novelty to be discovered 🙂

    #17146
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @cedar - Thanks for opening up here.
    Heeh! I should say that all the things you wrote in your first post in this thread sounds to me like trademark seelie Fi, so you are likely mislabeled as unseelie when you are really seelie. Do you relate more to the seelie descriptions? Let me show you a bit of what I mean and see:

    Spoiler

    Cedar: I feel very close to others emotionally, even strangers. I can feel the energy they give off and make adjustments in real time to create smoother interactions. I am able to predict (extremely accurately) what their motivations are, what they are thinking and feeling, what they need in that moment and long-term. I find it easy to be able to plant seeds towards that need.

    This correlates strongly to:

    Profile: The Fi user exists in a constant state of high permeability; an uncontrollable receptivity to the emotional energy of other people and the world.

    And this...

    Cedar: I feel a natural affinity to other people, animals, plants…even ecosystems. I feel like I have an intuitive understanding of what they are communicating, mostly through body language or the observation of their outputs. I experience immense joy in tweaking inputs to get healthier and happier outputs.

    Corresponds to:

    But this same empathic tendency does not stop at human beings. The seelie Fi user will feel the same injury for all manner of animals. This often leads to vegetarianism and to an animal rights activism compelled by a belief that “if it has the capacity to feel pain, then it should be protected.” But this also leads to an appreciation for “creatureness” where the seelie Fi user may imprint on various other animals and come to relate more to them than humans if they share the same temperament.

    And this...

    Cedar: What does get me is that I have zero tolerance for the neglect of living things be they houseplants or children.

    Corresponds to:

    Profile: When Fi is seelie, it retains an open and unobstructed emotional channel to the world. Painful situations register with a more acute sensitivity than to most others, and they may be prone to break down in tears upon hearing a terrible story or even from looking at a photograph of impoverished or abused children.

    [collapse]

    I see about a dozen other small points like this in what you write, but I fail to give a full account of them, as they're too many to parallel. But you do seem like an Fi-lead to me in all that you have written in this thread. The issue seems to me a mere matter of seelie versus unseelie for you -- and you're clearly psychologically seelie. I apologize for the mislabeling, as the seelie/unseelie vultology has still needed more clarity.. and it gets more complicated with flat affect too.
    Um, but aside from that what else do you feel is off? You mentioned that you feel your type is "way off the mark" and I'm curious as to whether seelie Fi would answer your questions or if there's something else that this would still not clear up?

    Fe & Compassion?:

    "People describe me as: emotionally available, open, friendly, passionate, well informed, kind, thoughtful, sensitive, spiritual, intuitive, old-soul, self-aware, present, compassionate, empathetic, approachable, gentle, caring, nurturing, handy, and selfless to a fault"

    I wanted to offer a general note about "Fe" and ENF, since as I understand it you relate to both of these in other typology systems. Helping others, wanting to help others, being open and friendly, compassionate, empathetic and approachable... are absolutely in line with seelie Fi in CT. Members like our @bera and @faerie (SeFi and NeFi respectively) are embodiments of these qualities through seelie Fi. These are not Fe-exclusive traits but they are simply both aspects of the light side of the F attitude.
    Heartitude Article

    Seelie/Adaptive could be pushovers, passive aggressive, backstabbing and shit-stirrers. And Unseelie/Directive could be overly aggressive, demanding, unable to connect emotionally, and bullies. But really none of that is healthy.

    Right! 🙂 And that is why it says in the article, after every header, that the following describes the function "when they fall under the weight of stress and mental illness." The "Attitudes of the Heart" article specifically labels sections as "Under Stress" for the purpose of explicitly noting that this is not the baseline behavior.
    So far, as Rondo mentioned, it has been instrumental to our members and to our general understanding of humanity to also document precisely "how" certain types fall out of health, because it does differ and people are indeed not necessarily aware. 🙂 But those sections "Under Stress" really should not be confused for the F attitude's normal operation.
    The unseelie & directive attitudes are not broken forms of seelie & adaptive, but are fully necessary, useful, and valuable aspects of the entire psychic economy of humanity (which is always dual). And they also have their own alternate ethical stances which advocate for things that are less agreeable but also very important to society.
    I hope some of this clarifies your questions-- I feel I likely missed a lot of them, but let me know your thoughts on the few points covered? ^^;

    #17208
    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I think the main issue is I don't agree with the delineation between the Feeling types. If anything, they also feel like they should be on a spectrum and not separate types. In other systems the boundaries made clearer sense. There are tons of posts from Fi's perspective. Are there any from Fe lead Adaptive females?

    #17209
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I think the main issue is I don’t agree with the delineation between the Feeling types. If anything, they also feel like they should be on a spectrum and not separate types.

    Yes, it actually is a spectrum. 🙂
    Seelie-Unseelie and Adaptive-Directive are spectra of the F functions, and that's always been the case. They're not 'true dichotomies' although the profiles were written to paint the extremes for clarity's sake.

    In other systems the boundaries made clearer sense.

    Hmm, I dunno how you mean exactly. But "clarity" is not accuracy in this case. There are a lot of trait theories that present easy bite-sized categories but that is not the same thing as reality. For example, it may be very convenient and clear to say:
    Fe = social/communal/empathic/collective
    Fi = personal/one-on-one/self-focused/individual
    ...or something to that effect, but that may not reflect any higher truth outside of this heuristic convenience. Yes, psychometric models like Big Five rely on two complementary forms of categorization: 1--oppositional traits, 2--a spetrum between those traits. But this allows near-infinite construction of psychometric traits, with no necessary justification for their delineations.
    CT is not a trait-model and that's not the formula we follow. Instead it's cognitive/metabolic and the end results and traits may vary. So in brief:
    Fi: The Fi user may be empathic, accepting and supportive, depending on their attitude. But what always remains the case is that Fi will be subject-oriented and essentialist in its delineations of subject properties, when it aims to answer the question of how [subject] relates to the data of the emotional register.
    Fe: The Fe user may or may not be empathic, accommodating and supportive, depending on their attitude. But what always remains the case is that Fe will be object-oriented and pragmatic in its delineation of causality, when it aims to answer the question of how the [objects] relate to the data of the emotional register.

    ~ ~ ~

    This difference takes a more nuanced analysis of who they are and what they say. The Fi user may form an abundance of successful social relationships while always treating each relation in a singular form, by evaluating the properties of the subject discretely, and/or against some universally sensed life-principle. So then you get a social butterfly Fi, who nonetheless treats each subject-relation on its own terms, rather than as a wider causality game of objects.
    Oppositely, sometimes the Fe user may be quite unsuccessful in social relations, and push everyone away. This may, ironically, be due to their attitude of Fe... if it turns out that they don't listen to subjects by evaluating their discrete properties but instead see subjects as part of a larger social causality game which they're playing. People can come to be seen as roles rather than individuals. More than a few Fe-leads in the database are poor listeners, and quite disagreeable. But that doesn't change the fact that their mode of experiencing causality (Je) is as a relationship of people-objects and dynamics stemming from "human nature" as generally understood.
    This post ended up way longer than I expected and maybe it's not done much to clarify, but I wanted to give it a try anyhow. Thanks for making it this far.

    There are tons of posts from Fi’s perspective. Are there any from Fe lead Adaptive females?

    I don't think we have many Fe-lead women on the forum.
    But we have female Fe users?

    #18541
    CB
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Woooooh, yeah this is one thing that I do not relate to too well.....
    I know that in my videos, I am pulling all kinds of funny faces, but I feel completely content...... I wonder how often I do this IRL?....
    Maybe I subconsciously don't want to be talking to/through a computer screen?....
    Maybe I subconsciously don't want to be delving too much into memory based info? (which I'm poor at doing)
    I'm definitely not seen as blunt or an Asshole!!!! I'm a very friendly and agreeable person, and have always been one of the best people at getting along with a wide variety of people...
    Apparently I would have been made 'head boy' (representative for your year group at school) assuming due to the above.... but they said that they knew that I would not have wanted to do it. (guessing due to my relative shyness at that age)
    It does seem that I am a very moral person, and do dislike some of the things that people do, but I never go around judging people.... I might just keep my distance sometimes..... I'm very forgiving though......
    I would say that I judge ppls actions, more than the person themselves.... which is probably why I can easily forgive the person....
    Damnnnnn….. I'm wearing a 'WARNING, ASSHOLE, DO NOT APPROACH' sign!
    L.....O.....L.....
     
     
     

    #18543
    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I just tried to post, and my post didn’t show up! So I’m trying again, and hopefully it won’t result in double-posting.
    I just got typed as FiNe II-- Unseelie, and Auburn suggested I check out this thread. So, I wanted to add my thoughts here. It's worth noting that in MBTI-land, I consider myself an INTP and even here in CT-land, I relate more to Ti than Fi. But I'm still learning. From what's been said so far in this thread, here's what I either relate to or don't:
    From LadyNerdSky:
    "I sense the hidden, unspoken “vibes” of the room or the person in front of me. I sometimes feel like I have a weird psychic “link” to another, that I’m accidentally tuned into the same wavelength as them. I’m great at intuiting other people’s next words and future moves. As if I’m reading your mind (not feeling your heart). If I’m comfortable I’ll try to give voice to my observations: “I sense you’re hesitant, uncertain, anxious etc”. But most of the time I won’t say anything. Instead I’ll silently and subtly tweak how I approach you or the situation to suit what I believe is going on behind the scenes and the future I anticipate unfurling in front of me. I will try to jump onto your wavelength and flow with you, not against you."
    I don't relate to this. What other people are thinking and feeling often feels pretty mysterious to me, and I don't think I'm very good at reading people. I sometimes get a sense that something is "off," but I usually don't know what it is. And when I do have a sense that something is "off" with someone, I don't really know what to do about it - certainly nothing as sophisticated as subtly tweaking how I approach them to suit what is going on with them.
    "But I don’t “feel” or absorb another person’s emotions. It’s more of a clinical detached observation from behind a wall."
    I mostly relate to this. There are times when seeing someone else cry has led me to start crying too, but it's only if I'm already experiencing those emotions and seeing the other person crying kind of pushes me over the edge. Otherwise, if I'm not already experiencing those emotions, it feels like the clinical detached observation you describe.
    "I feel very capable of compartmentalising my inner world and my emotional reactions. I can view terrible footage and not feel anything emotionally inside."
    I have experienced this both ways - I have viewed things that have emotionally moved me and also viewed things that I recognized as "tragic" without actually feeling the corresponding emotions. I'm trying to figure out what distinguishes those situations in which I feel from those in which I don't. I can't say with any confidence at the moment what it is. A couple of things that come to mind are that I am less likely to feel emotionally moved if I feel like the footage is manipulating me specifically to try to emotionally move me and I am more likely to be emotionally moved if the footage involves harm to animals. That tends to get to me.
    "Other people’s outward displays of emotion makes me very uncomfortable and I want to leave. But I’m also curious to think about the why behind the other person’s reactions. If someone has, in my opinion, an irrational emotional outburst, I like to think about the possible various factors that contributed to their reaction: what is their personality, what might be their past experiences that coloured their present interpretations, what is their perspective. Psychoanalysing.  I don’t feel like it’s my problem to deal with their emotions or calm them down. I don’t ever want to be the person anyone leans on for emotional support. I try to rationalise and understand feelings and emotions, without getting personally involved."
    I agree that other people's emotional displays make me uncomfortable. Since I've become interested in typology, I do sometimes try to analyze what's happening to them through that lens, but that wasn't something I ever did before. Psychoanalysing does not come naturally to me.
    "I have excellent control over my own feelings and emotions. This is partially why I dislike uncontrolled displays from others. I think, why can’t you pull yourself together? Why are you burdening others with your emotional needs? I see myself as logical, calm, controlled and level-headed. I think before I react and am very self-contained."
    When I was younger (early high school and before), I cried very very easily, and that was something I really didn't like because it's pretty embarrassing and awkward to start crying in front of a teacher or in the middle of a class. Nowadays I cry much less easily. In fact it's pretty rare, and I kind of feel like I have to consciously choose to cry in order for it to happen. I don't think my aversion to other's emotional displays are so much because I think they should control themselves. It's just awkward for me and I don't know what to do, so I'd rather it not happen. At least that's true with most people. If it's my husband, I tend to have more of that "pull yourself together" attitude, which I actually really don't like about myself because that's the opposite of how I would want someone to treat me if I was upset.
    "I’m allergic to public consensus. Anything that’s popular among the general public I probably couldn’t care less about. I like to make up my own mind about things that interest me and I’ll come to experiences in my own sweet time when I’m ready."
    I have noticed that I seem to have a bias against the mainstream view. If I'm researching something, and I learn that there's a mainstream widely accepted take on it and then there's someone else saying, "Hey, I've figured out that the mainstream view is wrong, and here's why," I'm more inclined to believe the person saying the mainstream view is wrong. I like to think that I am still able to judge both views logically and I'm not just taken in by anyone claiming the mainstream is wrong, but I do have a bias in that direction. For some reason it just feels plausible to me that the mainstream view is usually wrong, or at least oversimplified.
    "I’m a perfectionist and a control-freak. I like things a certain way and that’s usually my way. I can be bossy with the way things “should be”. I might listen to your opinion, but ultimately do my own thing. I’m very picky with personal aesthetics. Only certain colours, fabrics, and textures are welcome and I’m very quick to judge appropriateness. I will reorganise a room or office to my tastes if it’s cluttered, disorganised or ineffective. Even if it’s a shared space. I won’t ask, I’ll just do it. I will streamline files, papers, and maximise desk space. Everything will have its place. I go nuts labelling the room. I feel much more peaceful and in control once the space is perfect. I am meticulous about crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s."
    I am a control freak when it comes to my own life, but not when it comes to other people. In other words, it's really important to me to have autonomy to choose how I will live my own life, but I don't really care what other people do. This can end up being kind of controlling from my husband's point of view because there are so many aspects of our lives that are shared. So, if it's very important to me that the place I live be a certain way, that means the place he lives has to be that way too because we live in the same place 🙂 I'm not that picky about aesthetics though. I have opinions, but it's not a big deal to me. And I'm not much of an organizer. I'm pretty disorganized. But I do do the thing that I will decide for myself how I want a certain system in our home to work and I will go ahead and implement it without consulting my husband :/ (which I realize is pretty hypocritical of me because I really wouldn't like it if he did that).
    "I’m very hard on myself if I underperform. I think if you’re going to do something, do it right the first time. The pressure comes mostly from myself. I don’t care if other people have lower expectations or standards, I will judge based on my personal measure and definition of success and acceptable performance. There’s very little you can say to talk me down from the proverbial ledge when I disappoint myself. People say I’m too hard on myself. I think others don’t try hard enough."
    Totally relate to this. I actually get really bothered when I've disappointed myself and other people try to comfort me by saying that what I'm doing is actually good. They think they're being comforting but they're actually just arguing against my deeply held beliefs, which doesn't make me feel better.
    "I have my own set of values, standards and things that I think are important in life that may or may not echo society’s values [...] I have a lot of patience and acceptance for people just trying to be themselves. I feel more tolerant than average to alternate lifestyles, gender-orientations, sexual-orientations, fringe-groups and alternative forms of self-expression."
    Agree. I don't specifically rebel against something just because it is a commonly held value. For example, I do actually value marriage and having kids for myself even though it is very "traditional." But I don't value anything just because it is a societal value. For example, I don't care about money or status at all. I question everything and figure out what makes sense to me, personally. So there are a number of things that I personally value that would be considered unusual. I am also very tolerant of other people and "alternative" lifestyles. I will say that when I think I have figured out the "right" way to do something, I do sometimes have some internal judgement of other people doing it differently. But I'm not judging the people, I'm just judging their actions, if that makes sense. For example, I have done a crazy amount of research on parenting methods, and so I have pretty strong ideas about what is "right" and "wrong" in terms of parenting, and I do judge what most other parents are doing as the "wrong" way to do it. But I don't judge those people as being "bad." They're just doing what they think is best. I recognize that it's weird to do the amount of research I've done, and that in some ways it's probably healthier to be a little less obsessive and perfectionist about it, so I don't fault other people for not doing it the "right" way.
    "Decision-making can be easy. I don’t need a factual list of pros and cons, or to forecast every potential future scenario that may evolve from my choices. I don’t need elaborate decision-trees, and I don’t need to ask everyone around me for their opinion or input. An idea or future option will appear to me, and it will just feel right."
    I don't relate to this at all. Decision-making is extremely hard for me. I agonize over every decision and change my mind constantly.
    "Options are either a natural part of me, or not. They quickly take root inside and make themselves at home like they were meant to be there all along, or they just don’t vibe well with me. It feels like things are sorted by “does belong” and “does not belong”."
    Nope. To me, it feels like the answer to everything is "it depends." I can see both sides of everything.
    "I think people would describe me as: difficult to get to know, reserved, shy, quiet, perfectionist, principled, honest, studious, independent, diplomatic, hard-working, sweet, gentle, calm, thoughtful, intelligent, acts with integrity, even-tempered, rational, pessimist, skeptical, truth-seeking, distant, opinionated, difficult to please, snob."
    I relate to most of this, with a few exceptions. I don't think I'd often be described as "hard-working." As a student, yes, but not in the rest of my life unless it's working at the specific thing I'm really interested in at the moment. "Sweet" kind of depends on who you're talking to. Almost everyone who knows me would describe me that way (and that actually is one of the most common words people who don't know me super well use to describe me), but people who have actually lived with me might not. They know the side of me that can be very stubborn and "hard" in certain areas. It's like I have a soft exterior and a hard interior, and the people who live with me are become part of my interior, so they see the "hard" side.
    From Cosmo:
    "I actually get annoyed when something or someone tries to appeal to my emotions rather than logic, and I notice when dealing with others, I tend to try to appeal to their logic, which doesn’t always work. I process my emotions by thinking through them, from a detached analytical point of view. I struggle with understanding others’ emotions and sometimes my own. Whenever someone is upset about something I usually approach the situation by giving advice to solve the problem, because that’s what I would want, rather than emotional comfort or sympathy."
    I relate to this big time. My default response to feeling an emotion is to immediately start analyzing it logically - this is actually one of the main things I'm working on with my therapist right now. She's trying to help me learn how to just feel the feeling without jumping straight to analyzing it. And I also react to other's problems by offering advice. I'm trying to work on this too (the book Nonviolent Communication is helpful), and just empathize with what they're saying, but it feels very unnatural to me. I feel like a robot trying to be a therapist.
    "When people are more emotionally expressive I am not too affected by it, unless they are demanding an emotional response from me, in which case I tend to shut off because it feels intrusive or forced."
    Big time relate to this. This is a source of difficulty for me whenever I talk to my mom. She likes to share with me whatever horribly tragic thing she's heard on the news, and I can tell she's looking for me to have a certain emotional reaction, which makes me totally shut off emotionally.
    "I’ve also struggled to relating to the Te description. Anything to do with making money, business, etc, is super foreign and weird to me."
    Same. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to relate to Te because it's not conscious for me, but money and business stuff is of no interest to me.
    "If [emotions] are just shoved back down then they fester and may manifest in the body as illness or may create other problems such as resentment. I think emotional/social intelligence is just as important as intellectual intelligence, otherwise there will be unbalance. I don’t like it when people lean on me for emotional support because it’s difficult for me to do on demand, unless they know that I will approach the situation from a detached manner and that I will most likely try to solve instead of soothe. However, the older I get and the more loss I’ve experienced, I realize there is something to be gained to just let the emotions go and just sit in them, rather than control them [...] I think I’m more comfortable in general with emotions than I used to be, and I try to be more present with experiencing them and being in my body, rather than in my head all the time. But I do still tend to think through my emotions, so it’s a work in progress."
    Totally agree. As I mentioned above, I'm working with my therapist on this exact thing right now.
    "I don’t think most things are so black and white, rather they have nuance and lots of grey areas that require philosophical exploration and are constantly changing and progressing. I enjoy sparking these types of discussions, because they can cause others to reflect on their own ideals and values, as well as my own. I think opinions and values are so personal and require a combination of both subjective and objective ideals, ie philosophy and ethics. I always try to take a neutral stance unless it’s something I feel strongly about or want to spark a discussion, but even then I don’t mind discussing or entertaining different view points. I will say, I tend to favor logical arguments over emotional ones, but it depends on the topic."
    I also don't see things as black and white. I see the grey in everything. I enjoy playing devil's advocate. If I'm talking to someone I feel really comfortable with, having philosophical discussions and entertaining different viewpoints is one of my favorite activities. But I don't do this with people I don't know super well because I'm afraid I might offend them.
    From Elisa Day:
    "They say I surprise them in my ability to stay cool under pressure and level-headed in times of crisis."
    Nope. I'm no good in a crisis. I just panic. I think that quality in you may actually be related to Se. I read in Dario Nardi's book Neuroscience of Personality that people with high Se are very good in a crisis. Of course CT is different from what Nardi uses, but there could still be a connection.
    Since some people have brought up enneagram, so I will add that I have not been “officially” typed, but I definitely identify as a 5.

    #18544
    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    For posterity, I'm also going to include here what I wrote to Auburn in an email about what aspects of my type description I don't relate to.
    1. I noticed that the profiles for TiNe and FiNe are very similar, but one place they differed is in these sentences:
    TiNe: "You may begin to ask reductionist questions about what the objective meaning of life is, how such a thing can ever be defined, and you may be prone to the occasional existential moment."
    FiNe: "Questions may crop up related to what the purpose of living is and whether you feel you are living in true alignment to that higher purpose within you."
    In comparing these two sentences, I definitely relate much more strongly to the Ti one. I do not believe that I have a "higher purpose." I am actually a nihilist who believes that nothing in the universe has any inherent value or purpose.
    2. "And while you do linger on these intellectual questions a lot, your investigation of true reality more often comes in the form of an artistic exploration, such as via poems, lyric writing, paintings, music, dance or fashion, wherein the artform becomes the vehicle by which those core realizations can radiate out into the world."
    This sentence was in both the FiNe II-- and TiNe II-- profiles, but in any case, I don't relate to it. I'm not a very artistic person. I dabbled a bit in photography and acting as a teenager, but since graduating high school I haven't had any interest in any artistic pursuits. I will say that I do appreciate art created by other people though.
    3. In the description of being "unseelie:" "You're not afraid to make critical opinions of others, and to call out lies and hypocrisies where you see them."
    I am not afraid to do this within my own head, but I definitely don't do it out loud to the face of the person in question. If someone says something I disagree with, unless they are someone I am very close to and comfortable with, I usually keep quiet about it. If it is simply a factual error, I am more likely to correct it, but if it is something more personal like "lies and hypocrisies," I would definitely not call it out - I'm very conflict-avoidant with all but the 2 people closest to me in my life.
    4. "But always for the Fi user the question of what is truth and goodness are in some way inseparable and irreducible."
    I definitely don't see truth and goodness as being inseparable and irreducible. I see them as being totally separate and unrelated. As I mentioned above, I am a nihilist, so I believe that what is "good" is entirely subjective - it's just based on what evolution and personal experience have led your brain to interpret as good - whereas I definitely don't think what is "true" is subjective.
    5.  "Fi+Ne: The Fairy. This type is the epitome of the Fi fairy archetype, and the most like the typical INF description. Very dreamy, with head in the clouds. Child-like and a bit magical. Usually artistic, sensitive, ephemeral and highly receptive to ideas and to the hearts of others. Prone to love experimenting with their own identity and making a somewhat eccentric artpiece of themselves. Colorful. Sing-songy. Whimsical. Almost always seelie, but can also be very private. Very curious. They are deeply affected by the world, but are ever-guarded underneath."
    I relate to very little of this. The parts I relate to are "sensitive," "highly receptive to ideas," "curious," and "deeply affected by the world, but ever-guarded underneath." The parts I don't relate to are "most like the typical INF description," "very dreamy, with head in the clouds," "artistic," "ephemeral" (actually not really sure what that means when describing a person), and "Prone to love experimenting with their own identity and making a somewhat eccentric artpiece of themselves. Colorful. Sing-songy. Whimsical."

    #18645
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    So, pulling text from Cosmo about her experiences plus yours, I do think I’m a problem-solver before being an empathiser. It’s taken me a long time to realise people are mostly just venting, want validation for their feelings, or emotional support, not an advice session. I’ve been joining professional development workshops in my field designed to teach clinicians to explore feelings and the emotional space. It feels icky and still makes me uncomfortable. But I’m better at throwing out phrases like, “that must be so hard for you”, “that must have been a frustrating experience for you” etc without sounding sarcastic.

    “Emotions being shoved down and festering in the body”

    Yes. I have big problem of anxiety not really being an emotion but a body reaction so severe I’ve given myself a Panic Disorder and can even faint from overwhelm. For a recent example, my emotions were telling me I’m totally chill about this pandemic situation, but simultaneously my body had digestive upset, nausea, vomiting, shaking, fatigue, insomnia and shortness of breath.

    “don’t think things are so black and white…”

    true. I think in my original Fi spiel I painted myself as being more binary that I am with decision-making and reactions. I’m going to steal a Personality Hacker quote, where they describe Fi as understanding at a nuanced level that everyone’s opinion makes sense, to them, from their perspective. Fi is good at finding that perspective.
    Ti and Existentialism: Definitely had, and continue to have existential moments. In my 20s I concluded life was meaningless, basically that we’re born, we procreate to ensure survival of the species, we die, and everything else in-between is just a triviality to pass the time and distract us from death. Which became a problem because I have no plans to procreate, therefore I myself am nothing, therefore logically it doesn’t matter if I die.
    But later in life I moved to the more Fi “purpose of living … higher purpose within you” stance.

    “for the Fi user truth and goodness are in some way inseparable and irreducible”

    To paraphrase, a “pure” Fi stance would be that ultimate truth is the one that also meets the criteria of “most good”? Or also, an Fi user would struggle to accept that truth or rightness may also involve choosing the more “evil” option? Maybe it’s the conscious Te, because to me they are separable.

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