Si & Inner Sensory Experiences

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  • #13194
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @hrafn - this totally slipped past me in the alpha/gamma thread - and I found it fascinating enough to be its own topic, I hope you don't mind?

    As an Si lead, I do relate to being attuned to inner body experiences, and to a relatively greater degree than I relate to being observant of the outside world. Now, maybe Nardi’s findings don’t apply completely to CT or maybe this isn’t the whole picture. Yet it feels like CT has swerved around imbuing Pi with any kind of sensory perception, for reasons I don’t quite understand. Maybe it’s something a priori about how the functions are supposed to work? Maybe it’s because this helps to draw a cleaner contrast between NeSi and NiSe? The problem with this is that Pi is pretty plainly engaged with at least one sense—as a perception process, it’s connected with sight and the eyes. Even though it doesn’t literally see objects in the world, it does see subjects in its worldview tapestry. So why would it be engaged with only sight but no other senses? This just doesn’t make sense to me. As I’ve said before, nostalgia is an experience that evokes and is evoked by the senses. Recalling things from the past brings to mind their sensory qualities. I don’t think CT has explicitly denied that Si is involved with the senses in this way, but it certainly hasn’t affirmed it, either. As I’ve said in other threads, my observation is that engaging my Si brings up certain sensory and emotional experiences. I’m not sure if all Si leads would relate to this, but as we’ve seen with Fi, even Fi leads vary greatly in how they experience Fi’s connection to the emotional register.

    I especially had to think about the part in bold for a while...
    I dislike MBTI literature that paints Si as having a kind of low-key perception of the environment, because I don't think Ni or Si are actively perceiving the outer world. So rationally speaking, Si doesn't "sense the outer world"; it is reflective/introspective sensory perception.
    But you bring up a dilemma I hadn't considered; even reflective/introspective sensory perception is not just informational or visual. I've tended to only discuss Si's memory-recall in terms of trivia, datasets/facts, and visual information --without focusing on the somatic element, yes. I think this has been an oversight, as sensation isn't limited to one sensory organ.

    Metabolism?

    What does this mean, though, at the metabolic level? We see an object through Ne, the memetic 'meaning' of the object registers in thought (i.e. "my childhood toy") and then Si triggers introspective sensory perception --an internal somatic evocation untethered to the present stimuli, but brought up by it. That makes sense to me.
    This would also be why the memory-recall can be unmatched to the actual object as it exists in the present (hence nostalgia). We might remember a well loved movie or object from a bygone time, and the actual physical qualities of the object/dish/ergonomics may be at odds with how it was perceived before, but the re-evoked experience will trigger stored somatic information, in essence altering the real-time experience of reality. This mismatch could be over-positive or over-negative (in the case that something is recalled more disfavorably than is currently true).
    Oppositely, Se would respond to the real-time current sensational qualities of the object in question, without this recollective interpretive structure overlaying different somatic triggers than what is directly at hand.
    I wonder if this may be headed in the right direction? Anyone else have thoughts on this?

    #13198
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    This would contribute to a possible habit in Si users to surround themselves with memetic triggers (Ne) that evoke wanted internal sensory experiences! Hence totems and knickknacks.
    So again, Ne perceives the outer world-- not Si-- but Si carries the somatic reaction, which is based on how the concepts brought into consciousness by Ne relate to a corpus of bodily reactions. Wow!
    My mind is blown right now..

    #13202
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    As for how new internal sensations are created (if not by Ne), I think this relates to Si's "episodic" quality, as a Pi function. So Pi doesn't just recall past information, it is constantly making new episodes; long-duration.
    So for example, every day-cycle (or even several hours, but not seconds) congeals into an episode with an overall encompassing somatic-sense. This interpretation conserves Si's place as an internal perception function, while allowing for the constant creation of new sense-triggers, which register not in real-time but ...across hours/days with a wider aperture. (see: long-cycle-of-decay)

    Rhythmic soothing

    This might explain another Si trait, which I'll call here rhythmic soothing for now, where a given sense-trigger is positive enough to encourage its perpetual re-triggering. I find myself doing this by replaying songs that I enjoy for ungodly cycles, or it could be anything.. like walking a certain path or basically any activity.
    Since Si doesn't experience sensory reality in real-time, but retrospectively re-evokes those it has encountered after episodic consolidations, this totally explains it! Omg, I need to calm down my brain.
    NO I CAN'T...
    Okay, there is a buffer period. The "in-the-moment" of an Ne/Si user is handled by Ne. So Ne/Si users can be vivid and engaged in the moment, but through Ne. And it'll carry Ne's fantastical quality of association surfing.
    The kind of evocation that Si adds can only be felt by retrospective re-triggering alongside a current moment, in response to the iconic qualities of the present that are anchored/correlated to that stored somatic episode/information.
    Naturally being "Ne" in the moment may create new positive moments/episodes, which are then reinforced later by rhythmic soothing -- so the two working in tandem creates a complete circle/loop; feeding into one another.

    #13210
    Hrafn
    Participant
    • Type: SiTe
    • Development: l-ll
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @hrafn – this totally slipped past me in the alpha/gamma thread – and I found it fascinating enough to be its own topic, I hope you don’t mind?

    Hahaha, maybe it slipped past you because I buried it in the middle of a 10,000-page rambling litany of grumbling mixed with half-cooked speculation.
    There's a lot here in your comments here; I'll have to think about it for a while, but just looking briefly at it, makes a lot of sense to me.

    This might explain another Si trait, which I’ll call here rhythmic soothing for now, where a given sense-trigger is positive enough to encourage its perpetual re-triggering. I find myself doing this by replaying songs that I enjoy for ungodly cycles, or it could be anything.. like walking a certain path or basically any activity

    Yes!, I do this quite a bit as well! Especially with stuff like listening to the same song over & over again. Yet my relationship to this sort of thing is sort of complex. For example, if I repeat a particular song enough times, sooner or later it will become "washed out" and lose most of its power. Then it might become stuck together with my impression of that time of my life. Anyway I'll try to think about this some more and see if I some cohesive thoughts on what you've described here.
    By the way, just a random idea off the top of my head: I wonder if this "rhythmic soothing" could be at all related to the stereotypied behaviros common among people on autism spectrum? i.e. Maybe "rhythmic soothing" can be have relatively neurotypical manifestations like following the same path again & again, but among people with autism autism it can also manifest as behaviors like flapping, rocking, etc.

    #13211
    Hrafn
    Participant
    • Type: SiTe
    • Development: l-ll
    • Attitude: Seelie

    What does this mean, though, at the metabolic level? We see an object through Ne, the memetic ‘meaning’ of the object registers in thought (i.e. “my childhood toy”) and then Si triggers introspective sensory perception –an internal somatic evocation untethered to the present stimuli, but brought up by it. That makes sense to me.
    This would also be why the memory-recall can be unmatched to the actual object as it exists in the present (hence nostalgia). We might remember a well loved movie or object from a bygone time, and the actual physical qualities of the object/dish/ergonomics may be at odds with how it was perceived before, but the re-evoked experience will trigger stored somatic information, in essence altering the real-time experience of reality. This mismatch could be over-positive or over-negative (in the case that something is recalled more disfavorably than is currently true).

    OK, I've had a chance to look at this description more closely...Yes!, I very much agree with this--it seems in line with what I've suspected for quite some time!

    So for example, every day-cycle (or even several hours, but not seconds) congeals into an episode with an overall encompassing somatic-sense. This interpretation conserves Si’s place as an internal perception function, while allowing for the constant creation of new sense-triggers, which register not in real-time but …across hours/days with a wider aperture. (see: long-cycle-of-decay)

    In the metabolism section it says Ne/Si is "impressionistic," and what you've written above is how I've always related to the experience of "impressions."
    As I mentioned before elsewhere, I've had a kind of experience that's different, but related, when I'm trying to remember small bits of information but can't quite bring them into focus. Each bit of information has a certain subjective quality to it, a texture & feel or even a "somatic sense" that goes along with it. Even things like words & numbers can have these qualities...It's often happened I can call into mind the quality of what it's like to remember a particular detail (i.e. what it feels like to remember such-and-such), but can't quite bring the detail itself into full recall.
     

    #13213
    Septimus Rosa Chalier
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Very interesting.
    I’m not an Si-lead so my understanding might be tainted or incomplete, but I also have this experience of extended periods of time condensed in small shiny fragments…
    As the fragment is brightened up by a specific sensory stimulus, the current experience is altered - and so is the sliver, slightly, afterwards… An exchange takes place: occurrences after occurrences, the shards evolve… The Proust’s madeleine could be a quintessential Si experience…
     
    Ne abstract connections seem indeed to be compressed in Si somatic memories, but the opposite is probably also true: Ne can dilate and expand the somatic condensed experience in an associative "threading" process, when the bodily sensation is stimulated.
     
    Btw, I absolutely love tasting whiskies (but wines, rhums and pipe tobaccoes too)… And when i taste a particular whisky, i think Si, Ji and Ne work together to build an evocative image of the liquid (it can be a still life or a landscape). Si diffuse sensory database is summoned up, while Ji is looking for accuracy in the aromas and flavours and Ne is connecting the experiences and filling the sensory gaps.
    Afterwards, Si storage capacity can help me to talk about a whisky while not tasting it. Si can be very powerful and useful, in that i can sometimes almost taste the whisky when i try to remember it...

    #13214
    Tea
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Hrafn said, "For example, if I repeat a particular song enough times, sooner or later it will become “washed out” and lose most of its power." I try to guard against my tendency to do this because I know the result, but it's hard to resist. In the last few years I decided it must be a NeSi thing, from not absorbing enough of the object in real time. Ne's propensity toward addiction and fetishes is well established in other circles, and I find myself struggling with that, with not absorbing everything the first few go 'rounds. But I actually attribute this repulsion of the object to hyperstimulation  (possibly local overwhelm, but also Ne's branching, unbounded nature).
    S is the egocentric realm where the user is in relationship with an object, I believe.  N is the realm of objects' relationship with one another. With Se, the user must make sense of the most pertinent objects in the frame in a single synchronic episode, and how the objects relate to one another. They're forced to relate to one another when they occur together. This is consistent also with CT's understanding that E functions compare externals. Here is the egocentric Se (multiple rays connecting to multiple objects, and Ni examines the parallax):

    The difference, of course, is that the rays cast by the SeNi user aren't a result of clouds but a result of direct lines to pertinent objects. The objects on the ground (frame) form a unique configuration with respect to one another (blue lines**), allowing for a unique analysis of that snapshot. The changes in unique internal configuration over time are what Ni works with.
    Conversely, the Si user has a personal, subjective relationship with the object, much like CT describes the Ji functions where the object is being evaluated by the user. But with Si, it's internalized by the user in subjective fashion. Its representation sits close to the self.
    Yellow: Direct Percept
    Blue: Affect
    A NeSi type, conversely, will have some kind of clouds that exist within the subject (affect) actively causing a particular schema to be cast. The experience with the object is passive and latent. It really does look exactly like your drawing in Sandoval’s book Cognitive Type. It’s as our Jelle says “affect, percept.”
    This is why I will order the same thing again and again and then one day realize I don’t like it as much as I think I do. This is why if I haven’t heard a song in years, I might slowly embellish it. When the song replays in my mind, it has harmonies that were never there, the vocals are better, it has added nuance that was never there. I’m sometimes surprised at its simplicity when I hear it again after so long.
    The latent interface with sensory experiences is very real to me. I have no Fe (faithfulness to the context), so I rely on Fi (faithfulness to the subject) to provide an authentic response. Sometimes I may not process things in real time, so I can come off as detached and cold. But I those who know me, know the empathetic price I pay once my introverted functions have internalized something. The effects are very long lasting. I’m happy this thread came up because yesterday I was having a bit of a SiFi episode, but I knew I’d have a hard time describing the organic level attachment that pulls me, hence the maiden, all forlorn.
    Another element of Ne/Si that I believe Socionics recognizes it that it manipulates an object through time. I was explaining how once I know a face, I can manipulate it forwards and backwards in my head. Whereas Ni will track more internal, dynamic changes in an object, such as a person’s life trajectory. Ne/Si users are likewise capable of this (we often make accurate predictions), but it’s not really the main area of attention. We are drawn to geology, where we can track physical changes, and those physical changes mean something to us. They move me in a kind of life or death way. The way we were…
    Si is also the point at which I feel the veracity of the data. Many times I disbelieve my eyes. Ne doesn't have the same Yes/No element Se has.  It takes me a while to stand by what I saw or internalize what others say (the data has to match).
    There is 50/50 chance that today my Si-lead son will ask to watch "The Sandlot" for the fourth day in a row. And there's a chance my Ni-lead husband will sit with him and do so. Again. Because both Pis, in their own way, like continuity.
     
    -----     -----     -----
    **I hope a SeNi user can correct me and tell me if the blue lines converge in this fashion, capturing centrality or if the relationship between objects is a bit more woven. I suspect they’re converging, but how so is unique to each user. The point is that they accurately mark and compress a snapshot of reality, which can be resurrected at a later time. The reason I say Ni watches changes over time is because if you use an egocentric frame of reference, you rely on a parallax effect to monitor changes. This was my hunch, and the literature in cognitive science seems to support this. I don’t think Socionics calls Ni “time” arbitrarily. “Awareness of time” is very different from a user’s being in time.
    P.S. Pardon my abuse of italics. I'm an extrovert, but hey, I refrained from ALLCAPS.
    <hr />

    #13223
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Rhythmic soothing
    This might explain another Si trait, which I’ll call here rhythmic soothing for now, where a given sense-trigger is positive enough to encourage its perpetual re-triggering. I find myself doing this by replaying songs that I enjoy for ungodly cycles, or it could be anything.. like walking a certain path or basically any activity.

    Yes!! MBTI descriptions always describe Ne-doms as incapable of following detailed routines or just plainly hating it, and that has never been the case for me. I've always found myself going repetitively to the same places to have lunch- so much that I don't even have to say my order anymore-, using the same route to get there while I wear clothes that look similar to the ones I wore before.

    #13227
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @teatime
    I feel you captured it well. I have tunnel vision, sharp focus. The tunnel vision is part of the 'flow' because I just hone in on what I want, or what I am doing - and then meet the world head-on, moment to moment. It's not just about looking, but interacting with the physical world as it ebbs and flows, but the interaction is entirely driven by a purpose that comes from within. This can range from something magical like doing art, to something mundane like doing dishes.  Or even something intangible, like reading - but following the motion of the plot moment to moment, experiencing each scene as it passes.  I just 'meet' the world as it moves.
    Also I love this thread! I had recently PM'ed @hrafn to tell him that I remembered that part of the Alpha-Gamma interaction and also wanted to make a post out of it when I had time, because I found it extremely significant in how it relates to Se and Si. @auburn , once again you have noticed something I noticed and in a similar way. Eerie! I'll be following this thread carefully!

    #13231
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Yes!! MBTI descriptions always describe Ne-doms as incapable of following detailed routines or just plainly hating it, and that has never been the case for me. I’ve always found myself going repetitively to the same places to have lunch- so much that I don’t even have to say my order anymore-, using the same route to get there while I wear clothes that look similar to the ones I wore before.

    I do repetitive stimming behaviors as traditional recognized (rocking, humming, etc), but as for other things like taking the same path or eating the same food, I do that more to free my mind and time for other musings and interests than for any comforting effect. I can put myself on autopilot to get through the day and be lost in my head without having to worry that I'll do something too stupid. I prefer to try new foods when I go out to eat. The routine aspect only kicks in when I am trying to get other stuff done and eating isn't my focus at the moment. Same with the driving. Especially the driving. I probably shouldn't have a license, my mind wonders so much ?. I take the same route for safety! But walking, that doesn't apply. I don't like to take the same walking path if there is a choice. I can appreciate the same place more than once, but I start scouting out new options long before I am necessarily bored of the original.
    In summary: I am good with and love routine too, but only so I can have more time for fun and not be stressing over the boring stuff. ;p
     
     

    #13232
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    The autopilot part encapsulates it perfectly, thinking about it now, I should have worded it that way since I only take the same path when I'm in that state, too, and prefer to explore new directions.
    Sometimes going to a place that's 15 minutes away ends up taking me 40 minutes to get there because I forget about my surroundings since I start to imagine things and get caught up in them. @shalley-lorraine I wonder if that happens to you too, sometimes the scenarios of my daydreaming get so complicated that every person involved has a three-dimensional personality and dialogues with others that could go on for hours.

    #13233
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, go figure! I came here to start this discussion after the Dischord convo we started with @Bera (in which Hrafn's post here in the OP and many of the things he has said elsewhere were primary cited authority, ha ha!). Glad Auburn decided to open the discussion here where Hrafn and other Si leads (and JeSis) can also contribute.
    The reason I remembered Hrafn's ideas/discussions is that it dawned on me that my recent (about 4-5 months) dive into the practice of somatic experiencing in a bid to heal my issues/trauma (I recommend it, btw!) might actually have been an attempt to develop SI! Bera has had the hunch that a whole host of issues she and I have been going through have been strongly Pi-related. It's why I remembered Hrafn's many descriptions of his somatic experiencing. I readily access the pings of my emotional register but I must make very deliberate efforts to "enter" my own body, as it were, and experience life "from within my skin" if I could put it that way. Bera (SeFi) also accesses her register but finds this other forms of somatic experiencing not at all attractive. She reminded me that @animal has been making this point severally! Finally I think I get what she's been saying.

    @auburn
    , I suggest we add this component to Si's overall description but instead of calling it "somatic experiencing", we call it "somatic awareness". It adds a layer, I think, to our current understanding of Si's groundedness.

    #13237
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    In addition, @gabriellawinters made this post before she was typed TeSi I-II which I think I should share in full (I have her permission), even though not all of it relates to Si perse. The first bit of it relates to somatic awareness though.

    "It would certainly make sense of my sensory intensity and yes I couldn’t believe how spot on the Si description was when I first read it! it was like, yeah finally someone gets what I mean about the body-physical-awareness and intensity! Pair that with my cosmically, spiritually and scientifically observant head and I’m a self-awareness powerhouse who sometimes can’t tell the difference between where I/my physicality/emotions end and another begins. I see everything in its textural, energetic and structural state, often focusing in on the fine details of what makes something what it is (with a keen interest in biomimicry and studying the mathematical, physical and chemical patterns of how nature designs). And I think this is the ‘detailing’ that gets overwhelming to others when I get into the layers of.
    I still think that my brain ‘organises’ information like the Ne descriptions, but there’s lots to learn. You can see how my eyes are always moving around the space around me where I’m projecting my constellation-style filing system (like a laser projector), so that I can sift through the data I have. The eye and head turning is non-stop when I’m talking but it’s not like that when I’m listening, I can keep eye contact better when I’m not fetching and revising information on the fly all the time....
    I’ve read somewhere that when Ne is tracking around with their eyes ‘outside of themselves’ that it’s only an illusion that the information is outside of themselves. Well in my case it’s incorrect in many cases. As a child I used to have this special kind of memory recalling where I’d literally project images stored in my brain a few feet outside of me so that I can look at it properly and fetch the information from that (without having to consciously ‘know’ what’s on the image). Say a page from a book, if I could pull it out of my filing and put it in the projector/magnifier I can just fetch the details from it, it works like that. I’d see my notes, page wrinkles, highlighting, everything as visually was basically. I’d excel at written exams because I’d just pull up the info I needed, but verbal exams (which we have a lot too in Hungary) were another story. I remember my literature teacher calling me a cheater for ‘reading the answers off of this projection from my head’ and would always fail those exams for me, because I should “know it” and not “read it” even if from my own head. When you see me squint (which I still do a lot) it’s a sign of that type of memory recall, it worked for ‘video recalling’ too a few years ago when I needed to work out where I had lost my laptop, I was able to watch back from where I last remembered seeing it and from there the projection showed me what o had done with it lol, Tom couldn’t believe it. This type of memory recall has been observed on 9-11 year olds on a study somewhere but ironically I can’t recall the details ? I think I need a sense of pressure for it to work/function or something like that... now I wonder if it’s a suppressed SiTe thing ? "

    #13239
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    There are so many interesting points made in this thread !
    @fae you said :

    I readily access the pings of my emotional register but I must make very deliberate efforts to “enter” my own body, as it were, and experience life “from within my skin” if I could put it that way. Bera (SeFi) also accesses her register but finds this other forms of somatic experiencing not at all attractive.

    Yes ! I will try to put this in context. Me and Fae seem to be in a process of developing/attempting to develop our Pi functions. 🙂 Or at least we are both thinking about it. And she kept telling me how she connects emotions to specific parts of her body. I do that too, I think everyone does. But - if I understand this correctly - exercising somatic awareness is more than this - you basically can find emotional complexes and some sort of somatic memory (?) that you perceive as tied to your body. For example, maybe you have layers of emotional distress that you somehow mentally connect to your stomach. And then, if you become completely aware of your inner sensations, at some point you start feeling discomfort/pain in your stomach and this discomfort is tied to specific emotions, that rise to the surface in this process. And I think the sensations you feel are actually caused by the replaying of stored...memories that you somehow connect to your body. I tried to avoid saying memories stored in your body but I think they feel exactly like that, am I right?
    What we noticed was that this seems to be a form of ancient wisdom. 🙂 Si - wisdom. 🙂
    And I also said I think the path to wisdom is different for Se-Ni users. I can't really know how others see this but for me the idea of wisdom has nothing to do with awareness of my body. Though I think it's awesome for others to follow this path ! Also for me wisdom (for lack of a better word) doesn't seem to come from the past/childhood memories/past trauma etc.
    What I consider as accessible wisdom for me is actually exactly what @tea said above :

     With Se, the user must make sense of the most pertinent objects in the frame in a single synchronic episode, and how the objects relate to one another. They’re forced to relate to one another when they occur together. 

    This is so accurate !!! Though I'm not sure every Se-Ni user will relate. I might have not completely agreed with it years ago. But now this is how I generally function at my best (or worst? 🙂 ). And this is my ideal of "wisdom".
    What happens is I observe the environment and some specific objects/events pop up...as being relevant and as having something similar, something that makes them part of the same theme ! I detect them, put them together and I draw out one meaning from them. This meaning is not a logical conclusion. It's like an interpretation of a dream or a religious text. An astrological chart. A tarot spread. Images in a crystal ball. Or in the fire. Or in the intestines of birds. :)) Images that I see at the same time or in a short timespan and that form one general theme.
    I don't want to debate whether these "themes" really exist or if the meanings are created by us. I see both possibilities and could give arguments in favor of each. But this is how it works. This is why Jung - an Ni lead- developed the concept of synchronicity.
    Now, about time. The thing is - interpreting synchronistic events makes you somewhat capable of predicting the future. Because in the general theme you can sometimes see that something is missing. And that something is basically going to happen. Because...I know this will sound a bit illogical but...because it is missing right now from the image, so the image is not whole / complete. And for some reason images must become complete. The same goes for our aphorisms. Like -  "what goes up must go down" - if you apply this to a situation at work, in which someone is going up the corporate ladder suspiciously fast, you can predict the downfall. Because the image you see is not the full picture, you just saw him go up, but you didn't see him go down. So, this will happen in the future. You are just filling the gaps starting from the assumption that the aphorism (?) is true.
    So,  it's not a direct chronological thinking. It's thematic. And the focus is on the future as opposed to Si's focus on the past.
    These themes are general, so they appear again and again, there is a recurrence that makes you feel like your life is going in circles (or rather in a spiral - always back to the same point but also up). This can make time a general focus but actually we take separate images and put them together and the end result looks like something out of time, like something eternal. That can and probably will appear again in the future.
     

    #13246
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Sometimes going to a place that’s 15 minutes away ends up taking me 40 minutes to get there because I forget about my surroundings since I start to imagine things and get caught up in them. @shalley-lorraine I wonder if that happens to you too, sometimes the scenarios of my daydreaming get so complicated that every person involved has a three-dimensional personality and dialogues with others that could go on for hours.


    @Celeste

    Yes! I am a highly immersive daydreamer, that's why the routines are helpful. But even then, I can get so lost in my daydream that even autopilot malfunctions. I have to use an interval timer for getting ready in the morning, having it sound a boxing bell at me for every step of my routine or I'll be lallygagging about forever in my daydream or other distractions in my environment.

    #13248
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I discussed this somewhere in discord recently about how I find somatic experiences equally and often more spiritual than those of the mind since it's something I am not always in tune with. It's foreign, novel, exciting.
    What tends to happen is, I'll be absorbed in my interests, internal thoughts and external stimulation alike, for hours, then suddenly out of no where I realize I'm in my body and I feel miserable. If I'm with someone, often my husband, I'll start listing off all these things I need to tend about my body "I'm hungry, I'm sticky, I have a headache, I have to use the bathroom really bad, my nose is running...." listing them all off one after another and in a complete state of distress about it all. Eric always refers to these as my "warning lights" as if I am an automobile in need of servicing, lol. When I am in a state of excitement over new stimulation, I forget my body. When there's a lull in the stimulation, it all comes to me at once. When it does, I lament that I have a body - in contradiction to what I was sharing with Animal and some others around here previously, hehe. It's a love-hate relationship. I don't consider my body a mere container for my mind. Rather, It is something I don't know how to manage all the time and causes me stress, like an unruly mythical beast. I am in awe that it exists at all, that I am in this form, that I am capable of sensual experience. It has potential for so much spiritual experience when I am able to attune myself to it properly. I believe that I *am* my body, and my path to spiritual enlightenment isn't about transcending it, but embracing it - a more difficult task for me.

    #13253
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @bera Your description of how Ni-Se work together is the most simplistic and easy to understand that I've ever read. Straight to the point and without the use of complicated terms!
    Thank you, I think now I can finally grasp how you guys process information 🙂

    #13258
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @shelly-lorraine What you describe is exactly what happens when we fall into the grip of our inferior function. Here's a extract from Was That Really Me? by Naomi Quenk where she talks about every type's experience with the grip, you'll probably relate to it:
    One ENFP said,“I realized I had become numb and frozen inside— there was no light, no energy—just a wasteland of a landscape, and I was plodding through it.” Another ENFP described “deep depression and hopelessness.The most extreme unrealistic scenarios become real and factual. I will be broke, I will die of some dread disease, I will lose all respect among professional colleagues.”
    "I'm gonna die, there's something wrong with my body!' has happened to me so many times when I'm depressed or as you described not feeling aligned to the physical senses that sometimes I wish my Si was already developed

    #13259
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I didn't say anything about this and I love it :

    **I hope a SeNi user can correct me and tell me if the blue lines converge in this fashion, capturing centrality or if the relationship between objects is a bit more woven. I suspect they’re converging, but how so is unique to each user. The point is that they accurately mark and compress a snapshot of reality, which can be resurrected at a later time. The reason I say Ni watches changes over time is because if you use an egocentric frame of reference, you rely on a parallax effect to monitor changes. This was my hunch, and the literature in cognitive science seems to support this. I don’t think Socionics calls Ni “time” arbitrarily. “Awareness of time” is very different from a user’s being in time.

    I think they converge in this precise fashion ! So, we don't just have a singular focus on objects/tunnel vision but also a singular internal focus - establishing the general meaning/lesson to be learned from the external input. This is already in the Ni profile, as some of the things I said above, I am just trying to clarify that it is like this and not more woven. 🙂
    It does not feel like this snapshot of reality is resurrected, it feels like an Idea/Archetype/Symbol exists and sometimes you bump into it. You encountered it in the past and you see it again.Your trajectory brought you away from it and now it is bringing you back to it.
    The changes over time are seen as some sort of passage through different situations from which you learn certain life lessons. So, you don't store a lot of sensory details. Just the symbols. A certain taste or smell doesn't matter - if it doesn't have a specific meaning for you - you only recall a cluster of symbolic objects/events and the lesson you drew out of them. When a part of this cluster reappears, you start questioning if you are facing the same thing. Oh, you basically see the clusters forming. The lines appearing and converging to a point. And this happens over a period of time.

    #13266
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @bera
    Great posts, I mean great. I agree with everything you said and don't know if I have anything to add.

    I think they converge in this precise fashion ! So, we don’t just have a singular focus on objects/tunnel vision but also a singular internal focus – establishing the general meaning/lesson to be learned from the external input. This is already in the Ni profile, as some of the things I said above, I am just trying to clarify that it is like this and not more woven.

    Exactly, this is what I felt was missing from the Se profile: the focus on meaning. And how it all boils down to aphorisms... "as above, so below."  You worded it so well in so many places, including this:

    The changes over time are seen as some sort of passage through different situations from which you learn certain life lessons. So, you don’t store a lot of sensory details. Just the symbols. A certain taste or smell doesn’t matter – if it doesn’t have a specific meaning for you – you only recall a cluster of symbolic objects/events and the lesson you drew out of them. When a part of this cluster reappears, you start questioning if you are facing the same thing. Oh, you basically see the clusters forming. The lines appearing and converging to a point. And this happens over a period of time.

    Spot on! I have never related to the idea of enjoying "this thing and that thing." I don't enjoy things, or even register the fact that they exist, if they're disparate, divergent and meaningless (to me). So I really don't relate to the idea of enjoying sensory pleasure or looking for stimulation to quell "boredom."  Firstly I've never been bored in my life because there's always some ongoing meaningful endeavor that I can tap into; secondly, tastes, smells, thrills and momentary incidents don't matter in and of themselves. Instead, what matters is the symbolic meaning, the lesson, the pattern that repeats ad nauseum. It doesn't just repeat in my life, but also throughout history... and there are parallel patterns in the past, in the future, throughout humanity, in all the universe...
    As you pointed out, it's not worth debating whether those parallels are true or not, but the point is that we see them. That's how the function works. We Se the patterns.
    Just like you, I really don't remember or care about "this taste, that smell, this haircut, that face, this name, that fun ride, that sport, that thrill."  I remember - and notice -  the patterns that repeat and that hold significance. This is how I can often predict what will happen next, in big and small ways. What has happened before will happen again, and things that have happened over and over will repeat the same cycle. To me, that is flow.

    #13277
    Tea
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I was just reminded now while watching a movie of a somatic/emotional Si auditory-linguistic experience I keep meaning to describe. I talked about latent emotional processing. Sometimes a lot of data/experience is compressed into a single phrase.The phrase has ties to multiple experiences. So in a movie it may be a certain phrase itself that triggers the emotional reaction, a musical cue, or even if I put the scene into words. In this sense, Pi is more verbal than Pe. So, an emotional scene unfolds before me, but then tying it to a certain auditory association (or the idea of the thing, slightly removed from the thing itself) causes the emotional response.

    #13278
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Spot on! I have never related to the idea of enjoying “this thing and that thing.” I don’t enjoy things, or even register the fact that they exist, if they’re disparate, divergent and meaningless (to me). So I really don’t relate to the idea of enjoying sensory pleasure or looking for stimulation to quell “boredom.”

    This is really interesting. We are really getting to the heart of Si vs Se and the perceiving axes in general.
    I can very much appreciate sensual experiences that are disparate. My life is more episodic that continuous. I can develop a nostalgia for a certain scent, sight, etc, but I require neither symbolic meaning nor extant nostalgia to appreciate sensory comforts. My nostalgia is also episodic. There is no grand meaning or symbolism. I enjoy experience for experience sake. I vaguely remember contradicting myself about this somewhere too, as seems to be in my nature... hehe. But It's always more of a "why not both" situation for me, rather than a contradiction. I have motives and goals, but sometimes I just wanna experience stuff for the hell of it.

    #13280
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    One ENFP said,“I realized I had become numb and frozen inside— there was no light, no energy—just a wasteland of a landscape, and I was plodding through it.” Another ENFP described “deep depression and hopelessness.The most extreme unrealistic scenarios become real and factual. I will be broke, I will die of some dread disease, I will lose all respect among professional colleagues.”
    “I’m gonna die, there’s something wrong with my body!’ has happened to me so many times when I’m depressed or as you described not feeling aligned to the physical senses that sometimes I wish my Si was already developed


    @Celeste
    I've never had hypochondriac tendencies. When I tune into my body, it's a feeling of unpleasantness, but never "omg, I'm dying." It's more "Oh, yea, I need to service this thing.. what a drag" lol
    ETA - I am majorly stressed about it because it's a sudden awareness that I feel like crap, but nothing that a little self-care can't remedy.

    #13282
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I conceive of the metabolism of our CFs in a different sense than our current understanding. Our understanding is that the intro functions sort of get their data from the Pe functions. I don't see it as at all necessary to conceive of them that way if we are distinguishing the functions (awareness/consciousness) from the 5 senses and the sense data they acquire. The CFs are meaning-making processes or world-building processes, IMO, all 8. Parallel ways of patching up a coherent world for our mind from the same raw data-pool of info drawn from the external and internal world and processed by our brain (and nervous system by extension).
    So I don't think Si gets its data from Ne or Ni from Se. I think Ne-heavy users are much less aware of the actual reality around them than are Si-heavy users. To me, all 8 are distinct ways of drawing meaning from the raw pool of primary info from our senses, memories, emotions, imagination, and logic. They each build a kind of incomplete world on a level above the primary info, and then on a still higher plane, these four 'basic worlds' combine to give us a more complete picture of reality, IMO. Like four pieces of paper held together against a light to reveal a hidden message.
    Apparently, we need at least one Je, one Ji, one Pe, and one Pi based world-builder for that but I don't think they create from each other but rather from that primary data pool. Hierarchy and development make each world-builder's world "richer" or more vague.
    I guess I conceive of the types as being part of what's meant by those who say we live in a different universe, each of us, in which we're the centre. It doesn't mean there's no objective universe we share outside of our individual perception. We just don't perceive it directly because info must break down, travel to our senses, and be processed and recombined into a working universe we can live/move in. So I imagine the types as 16 basic "kinds of universes" we live in, based on different emphases on certain kinds of info over others. CT goes further and asserts that there are 1,024 slightly different universes we build in our minds. Of course, ultimately, we live in a very individual universe, each of us, that can't be known by anyone who hasn't looked at life through our own eyes. But types indicate where these universes we build are more similar or dissimilar.

    #13286
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, just to add to that same idea, I think we can see a small sense of this independence of the functions in something we again discussed in a tiny way in the Dischord. Conceived as independent processes, we can see how each of the four can sort of work with any of the other three in a way that creates a different kind of character/personality. I'll repeat the example I used there. Je's how-to/practical intelligence seems to work very differently depending on whether it is "partnering" in a secondary way with a Ji, Pi, or Pe "partner". With Ji, it creates more/less timeless rules or standards of behaviour, with Pi it lends the propensity or ability to engage in long-term projects or planning and with Pe it gives a kind-of short-projects orientation. It seems to me these kinds of partnerings can occur freely, even though the Pi-Pe and Ji-Je are most consistent/stable with what we call conductor (Pi-Je) and revisor (Ji-Je) partnerings coming in second in stability. Yet, we see in the development series other kinds of partnerings, like the Pe-Je personalities, Pi-Ji personalities which are less 'permanent' I suppose you could say etc. Anyway, just thoughts to emphasize my sense that I don't necessarily think that Si is dependent on Ne as our current understanding of metabolism describes.

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