Self-Improvement & Sense of Purpose. Do you Need it? How does it Work for You?

[Animal]

Also, I don't know if I idealize Je.  It's more that I'm commenting on the way I've been my whole life. What I strive for, very actively, is to embody my ideals.  And those ideals are not particularly Je-ish. I just notice that in reality, all my life I have functioned more in a way that falls into the Je descriptions, although I am not postulating that I'm Je lead, because I recognize the lack of Judgment in my moment-to-moment thinking and movement through the world.
For example, my posts flow out in an unstoppable stream of fire, burning and consuming ideas. There's no inherent structure there, even if there is a lot of backlogged thought propelling them.

[Animal]

My mother is also an unstoppable train, but it's a train of 'shoulds' and 'need to get done's' . 😀 Whereas I am an unstoppable fury, fueled by passion. My interest isn't caught by "new" things, but rather, deep challenges like typology which move me to the bone. And I ravage them whole. And this hunger I feel, is inherent to Pe.
Any time I was a little healthier - this type of energy went toward tangible projects, like running a band, making music videos and surviving in a big city to realize those dreams. I would be on the go from the moment I woke up to the moment I fell asleep, pulling loose ends together to enact my vision. The constant challenge of enacting my dreams made me feel fulfilled.
This is why as an 8w7 fixer and Sx dominant, I related more to Socionics Se - Hunger for Challenge, Volition and Making an Impression. I feel like the Se description here was written with a 9-7-X Sp/So in mind.  I bet Milo would agree with me 🙂

And Jared Leto, who is TiSe 3w4 with an 8w7 fix, has the kind of relentless dedication to his challenging visions that I relate to as well.

[Anonymous]

@animal,
I'll try since I was largely gathering from experience and my general understanding of CT definitions. If Pi is "narrativism," "worldview," and "tapestry" then that means that Pi, meaning my Ni, I don't know how it would work specifically Si, will see the stretch of one's life, from the current psychic state/present, and judge its "directions" (past and future) to see if it is aligned to one's idealizations (Ji). So a Pe lead might be content with their life in Pe exploration avoiding or ignoring the call of Pi and Ji to judge their alignment (Ji) in what they perceive is the current narrative of their whole life(Pi) from the present moment/state. Or the Pe lead might determine that it needs to put its Pe energy to a goal (Je) that aligns (Ji) with a (Pi) life narrative different from the current one. I think that's how I meant it.

[Animal]

@scientiam
Makes perfect sense!

Or the Pe lead might determine that it needs to put its Pe energy to a goal (Je) that aligns (Ji) with a (Pi) life narrative

Yes, this. I've always had strong sense of personal narrative. This is why I figure I'm Ni ego even if I'm (apparently) not Ni conscious. There's a strong focus throughout my life on my narrative - who I have always been and who I am becoming; and where this falls into the grand scheme of the cosmos. It is also essential that this lines up with my personal values. But I tend to discover my values (Ji) and my narrative (Ni) by way of investing myself relentlessly in goals (Te) that stem from visions (Pe) that come to me -- so it's kind of a circular process.
It goes like this:
Pe vision comes to me, in the form of a long-term project that I feel I need to enact. The vision itself is the ultimate ideal (Ji) that I need to stay true to.  Je kicks in, figuring out how to enact it.  These visions feel like a culmination of all that I have ever been; my role in the world and an expression of that 'frequency' in the song of the cosmos (Pi).
In enacting them, I discover the patterns that make me 'me' and line them up with old patterns I've seen before. Over time, the ideals (Ji) that come up in the midst of action, form a long-term narrative of who I am and where I'm headed (Pi) .  These patterns repeat over and over; and i see this 'rhythm' as my 'self.'  I also notice other people's rhythms in a similar way, and how they unfold in the long term - which is why I managed to type people accurately in CT for example before they came here and before I learned vultology.

[Animal]

I am much better at perceiving the rhythm of things over time than deriving deep insights based on what's right in front of me. @Ivory is actually much better at just looking at someone and matching them up to a structure in his mind to figure out their type or other things about them. Whereas I perceive a flow as it unfolds, and I hone in on the rhythms that keep repeating; thus pinning down this person's 'frequency.'
For what it's worth, my father is NiFe II-I , and he tells me he doesn't do this. He doesn't perceive people's flow or patterns. Rather he has a consistent world view that he imparts on everyone equally, as a therapist. And he is more prone to read all the family dynamics and what's going on with people right in front of him right now; rather than forming a picture of their flow over time. Not sure what that's about. Maybe Fe vs. Fi, since Ivory does this too.

[Anonymous]

@animal,
When I first learned about cognitive functions, that is what I perceived/theorized right away with how it actually works in the psyche: as you say, that "it's a kind of circular process." @auburn mentions it too in his book as an oscillation and tension between cognitive functions that create the awareness of consciousness in our psyche. That is why as a community we should keep in mind the categorizations that essentially come from the process of oscillation/circulation of cognitive polarities that work as a "whole" in our psyche. By categorizations, I mean the increasing refinement of J v. P, then Ji, Je, Pi, Pe, then judgement/percetion axis, and then each cognitive function. We should be careful to state whether we are making arguments for Pe leads, Pe in a type's hierarchy, a Pe "specific person/subject" or for Pe as a function only. Since the oscillation/circulation of a function in an actual person's psyche can vary to a significant extent even in a person with the same type and with same development because of the influence of the other functions' oscillations.

[Animal]

@scientiam
I agree completely. There are just a few principles I feel like could be included in the Se description (as an isolated function) -- but I'm taking a lot of extra verbosity in order to nail them down into a few clear points, because I have no Ti and suck at that. 🙁
I want to see a parallel treatment of each function. So if Se axis is mentioned in the Ni description, I want to see the Ni axis in the Se description, and how it plays in. I also feel some basics like "realism" were left out entirely. Not to mention, the Pe propensity to build up skills and seek challenges that excite them. The 'momentary stimulation'  in the Se description doesn't really cover it, because it is never mentioned that this need for stimulation can also be a need for challenges like building up skills to conquer some achievement (rather than just accomplishing physical feats in the moment).
But these conversations and distinctions like the one you just made are very helpful for me to keep in mind in organizing my thoughts, so I thank you for that 🙂
On top of that, I think that equating Fe with the 'phoenix rising from the ashes'  and the 'hero' is wrong, since everyone can embody this equally. Everyone is the hero in their own story; and many people rise from the ashes of trauma. So it's just too universal.
But I'm trying to hone in on how I would personally recommend changing it so that Fe's mentorism, messiah-ness and overbearing 'judgmentalness' is covered in an accurate way.
I think the descriptions are overall excellent, but theres just some basics that are keeping me up at night. 😀 😀 😀

[Anonymous]

@animal,
I am still processing (my super slow Ti-Ni lol) the idea/purpose/use of each of the cognitive function's statistical behavioral profiles and its spiritual mythology. So far I have seen how much of a stir/confusion they create, as I think these behavioral profiles are what people refer to when they talk about functions themselves, even though the "metabolism" section in the wiki refers to the actual processes of functions and function axes.  For example, on this page it mentions Se and Ni and the "emergent properties" of Ni/Se.
So, I don't know what to say yet except to keep in mind that these behavioral profiles written by auburn are aiming to extract and define the essence of a function in how it manifests itself behaviorally out of our psyche, by using general statistical interpretive correlations from specific populations (celebrities/public persons and ct volunteers?), and articulating it by using language that doesn't imply or necessitate another function's influence as much as possible.

[Animal]

@scientiam
The problem is that Ni is described as a shaman, Fe as a hero, and Se is described as 'bored'  delinquent who likes cars.
It's like one description is of a very advanced, evolved person who has integrated other functions as well as transcended to higher planes; while another could apply to an average 10 year old.
Some of the descriptions cover the good and the bad potentials with tremendous depth; some don't.
So that's my issue where the Se-Ni oscillation is concerned.
As for the Se description itself, I think there should be a paragraph about Realism which is 100% Se and has nothing to do with Ni or any other function. And it is the basis of Jung's and Socionics' Se descriptions.
He already added volition & the hunt, based on our conversations, and I think he did a great job (I was blown away how he summed up many conversations just in that paragraph) ... though I pointed out some specific issues with it. Like how it ended with "edginess and stunts" alone. If it were me I would have ended it with "This can lead to edginess and stunts, music, drama or fashion, or seeking the thrill and challenge of mastering other skills in general." Something more like that, to cover trends that come up often among a variety of Se users, instead of just focusing on the percentage who do 'stunts.'
But like I said I'm still gathering thoughts. I'm hoping to boil this down to a tiny short list.
And definitely I don't see how "hero" and "phoenix rising from the ashes" should be related to Fe.  Maybe for a Ti lead, they become a hero when they incorporate Fe; but I have heroic phoenix themes in my own life and no Ti or Fe to speak of.

[Animal]

When I read a description, I want to feel the magic, and also face the hard facts.
Auburn once asked: if Se leads come up more often among criminals, should I avoid mentioning that? My response was - no! Mention it, please!  I love exploring such trends, and I have also noticed that Se leads (myself included) are more likely to take risks like this and live somewhat outside the law. I've seen it. I'm in favor of this. It's reality.
But by the same token, Se leads are overrepresented among musicians. Should that not be mentioned as well?  What about the commonality of SeFi computer programmers? (I think this was a thing mentioned on discord.)
Who gets to pick which overrepresented themes are worth bringing up and which aren't?
What about the Pe-style "phoenix" who rises from hardship over and over and over, wiping the dirt off their back, starting anew?  The magic in 'newness' is beyond boredom and momentary thrills; it extends to the idea of spiritual renewal.  Why isn't this part of the 'magic' in the description?
And what about Pe people picking up the trends in reality as they unfold?  Se 'realism' is about Se seeing that "this keeps showing up in real life, and this doesn't." There's some magic in "is what it is"ness, which leads to Se leads having a very brutal and revealing commentary on reality as it stands.  In the description, the closest it comes to describing this phenomenon is "vulgarity."  But it's not always vulgar. Sometimes what sounds vulgar to sensitive ears, is actually a Se lead just saying it like it is.
And since Se can tap into trends in reality, and get in the 'flow,' there can be a kind of "animism" to balance Ni's "shamanism," as @rondo pointed out.
Se is "sex, drugs and rocknroll." You can't leave the rocknroll out of the description. 😉

[Animal]

Anyway I'll shut up for a few weeks and let these thoughts percolate.
rawr

[Anonymous]

@animal,
I guess what I was implying is that the behavioral profiles are statistical (based on data samples) and seen from a subjective view of one person, interpreted by one person, and articulated by one person (with some help from the ct community). I think if you trust the use and accuracy of the general idea of the behavioral profiles you have to trust that with more statistical data (more samples and studies from the general population) the experience that you see from your own perspective will be corroborated and aggregated from other samples from the general population, such that a more accurate and truer picture of Se behavior/experience will be shown that aligns with your own. Also, I don't think that the in saying that the archetype of the "hero" forms the Fe "spiritual" experience means that other types aren't/can't or cannot relate to heroes/heroism, just like the archetype of the "wise old man" in the  Si "spiritual" experience doesn't mean that there aren't wise old men or that there cant be wise old men/women in other types.  Same with the Ni "shamanism."

[Animal]

I think if you trust the use and accuracy of the general idea of the behavioral profiles you have to trust that with more statistical data (more samples and studies from the general population) the experience that you see from your own perspective will be corroborated and aggregated from other samples from the general population, such that a more accurate and truer picture of Se behavior/experience will be shown that aligns with your own.

Data has already shown that Se leads are overrepresented in music, though.

Also, I don’t think that the in saying that the archetype of the “hero” forms the Fe “spiritual” experience means that other types aren’t/can’t or cannot relate to heroes/heroism

Yeah, that's why I'm trying to find the right words to address this. I get this but ... it's not just about 'relating.' It's the idea that we already have a lot of people who are completely convinced they are NiFe's from their experiences on other forums, and who are whining about it, and then they come here and see "hero" and "phoenix" - a very universal experience that is quite central to the lives of anyone who has been traumatized or faced hardship - and they'll say "I relate much more to the Fe description than the Fi..."  and who can blame them?
I think most of the Fe description is spot on, as it covers collectivism and mentorship.. but the specific meaning of hero has to be cleared up.  It makes no sense to me that a few Se lead characters (who everyone agrees are Se) were used as fictional examples of the Fe hero myth.
Auburn took Harry Potter out of the description after a thread, but at first Harry Potter was in there. And the Harry Potter story is basically a trickster undermining the Fe lead structure (Voldemort), by refusing to comply to it. So I could not see how this was a "Fe hero myth" unless we are to say that the heroic properties of all functions (like breaking free from 'the man,' which is a trickster myth)  are in fact examples of Fe hero myth.
It needs to be more specific to Fe stories like Black Panther, where the hero follows the father's footsteps by 'erasing his old self' so he can become something better and rise to the needs of his people. Or, Danaerys Targaryen, who may be FeNi or NiFe.  But when you start throwing in Pe heroes whose stories are about tearing down structures, then I start to wonder, what exactly are we talking about?
Furthermore, why isn't Harry Potter listed in the Se description? He is a very relatable, human, positive example of a trickster. He's good at sports, follows his own muse, impulsive, does what he wants when he wants to, exploratory, breaks rules, spits in the face of corrupt authority, realistic, doesn't take any bullshit.  He takes down the corrupt Fe 'manipulative collectivist' authority through reliance on his own ethics and jumping into fights without hesitation.
From the point of view of The Man, The Establishment and the Corrupt media, he is basically occupying the same role as Milo Yiannopolus. 😀

[Tea]

@ivory agreed! I've always marveled at the strange, interdependent relationship between freedom and duty. But from the outside. I've finally succumbed to the authority of Je, from the inside. 😀 There's literally no freedom without constraints, you're right, @animal.
 
@scietiam, I do agree that Ji is generally the domain where idealization happens, but I think that my Pe specifically, being Ne, can be prone to idealization, especially being blocked with Fi. I was formerly so idealistic I just kept seeking alternatives. Ne will go trough many more - though fuzzier - alternatives than Se will. It's rather permissive with idealism.

[Tea]

^ Correction: maybe I was wrong. Si is the one that kind of whittles reality down into an ideal form.

[Animal]

@teatime
I know there's a great temptation to stick to the parameters of the system, and say "Pe doesnt have ideals, Ji does." But, I have to point out that indeed, NeFi's - on the whole -  have been some of the most idealistic dreamers I've ever met. Even when they incorporate Si like you have, or Te like @shelley-lorraine has; there's something dreamy at the core there.
I do not see this in SiTe. Take Shelley's husband for example.
 
I have definitely been seen as an opportunist though I didn't conceptualize myself that way; but I understand the accusation. I have my ideal vision (Ji-Je?) that I want to enact, and then I see what's "really there," and find the most optimal path; then stay focused solely on that path until an obstacle arises; then overcome it. I realize there's Je there too, though. The FiSe I know, I had mistaken her for Ne because I saw her as idealistic, but now I realise she's FiSe II-- and actually has her mind on very grounded, earthly tangible visions (much like mine), but just doesn't know how to get past the obstacles due to a lack of developed Je.
She is frustrated by structures like "having to have a job to pay for her art," whereas I had already accepted this reality by the time I was 5 years old. 😀
But, she also doesn't see OPTIONS the way Ne people do. She has one goal, one vision, one life purpose, one focus -- true to my familiar Gamma SF style. The only real difference is she just isnt willing to accept the real-world obstacles, although she sees them right in front of her; she struggles to make peace with that since her ideals don't line up with it.
I see options in how to get what I want (though once I get started on a path I stick to it), but what I want and 'who i am' , has always been consistent, like her.

[Anonymous]

@animal,
I would say that the behavioral profiles are ultimately not there to "relate" to since I myself "related" more to the Te and Fi (and some Si, Ne) behavioral descriptions. It shouldn't be used as a way to determine identity or accuracy with one's type, I made that mistake at first because of how condensed they are. Ultimately, the strength of CT relies on its "theory of mind/psyche" as shows in its metabolism section and in its vultology code/definitions to determine the relationship the mind and the movements/gesture of the body to determine a person's type.
The Se behavioral profile is not supposed to describe Se lead, but the behavior of  Se users with Se development and I do see the mention of the interest of music in it and its "cause": "The closer they are to this flow, the more aligned they’ll feel. Life is most invigorating when they are perfectly aligning the needs of the body, their own desires, and the situation. It may feel like a symphony coming together in harmony, and indeed many Se users take to music production for its capacity to create this fluidity."
As to the "heros" and why they are in Fe mythology (or why isn't there heroes in Se mythology), I would say that perhaps we, meaning current "Western, American culture," like our heroes as tricksters (Odysseus, Harry Potter, John Mclane) "more" than just people/national heroes like (Aeneas, Superman, Daenerys  Targaryen). Yet this shows that tricksters can be heroes, but not all heroes can be tricksters and not all tricksters are heroes.
 

[Animal]

@scientiam

I would say that the behavioral profiles are ultimately not there to “relate” to since I myself “related” more to the Te and Fi (and some Si, Ne) behavioral descriptions. It shouldn’t be used as a way to determine identity or accuracy with one’s type, I made that mistake at first because of how condensed they are.

I completely agree with you here. Relating doesn't always work because people have distorted views of themselves, myself included, as it's unavoidable and human to have a certain idea of yourself which isn't aligned with what you show. This is why vultology is so much more accurate than self-typing based on tests.
I don't think relating should be used as a basis for type; but I think it's valid and accurate for people who have risen from the ashes of trauma to see themselves reflected in that description. That 'phoenix' and rising from the ashes is about trauma is obvious. To abduct this symbol and attribute it to just one function, doesn't make sense to me.
Pe people have the 'dirt off their back' type of renewal, and revisor heroes "stay true to themselves" which is what makes them heroic.  Fe people have the 'kill your old self to create a better one" type of renewal, and what makes them heroic is that they tend to do this to meet a sense of duty toward the needs of others (their people, society at large).
The hero's journey is universal, unless we are specific about what type of hero and what type of journey. I think the description does hone this well, but a few extra cues could be honed to make it more distinctly Fe and less leaking into the other functions or just into general humanity and self-improvement as a sentiment.
Overall I also don't give that much of a crap what people 'relate' to, including myself. I use myself as an example from the stand point of "actions" and how things come out so I can kick up discussion about it, but 'relating' is not really my concern. I relate to the Ni description, but I recognize that this is something deep inside myself that doesn't show in my actions, so I don't bring it up. However what I am commenting on is how real people operate. I bring up me, because I don't want to start calling out specific stories of others; but I am commenting on myself as an example of a wider trend, based on my past actions and the attitude that unfolds right in front of our eyes.
However when it comes to others seeing themselves in the Fe description, what Im saying is that they wouldn't be wrong to see that if they have risen from trauma. It's not even about 'relating.' My father is NiFe, and rose from trauma, and he never talks about it. I only know through the grapevine and deduction.

many Se users take to music production for its capacity to create this fluidity.”

Did I miss this?! I like this 🙂 I haven't seen it yet I think. Maybe it's new. I have to look it over again.

 I would say that perhaps we, meaning current “Western, American culture,” like our heroes as tricksters

Hmm, I'm not sure if that's true. I've picked up that people in our culture actually idealize Dany style heroes a lot more. Maybe it just depends on your subculture. In GOT for example, there are lots of good characters but everyone's favorite is Dany and every girl dresses up as her for Halloween.
I do think theres a propensity to see Fe as the good guy and Se as the bad. Because in the Bible, God is the Je "good guy" - the tyrant -- and Satan is the Pe "trickster." In modern culture, more and more people are identifying with Satan or Lucifer and realizing that God in the bible is a tyrant; but in many subcultures, the tyrant is still seen as the ultimate hero.
The bible covers the same stories overall that were told in the Sumerian tablets 3000 years prior. They tell the story of the Gods that created the humans - the Annunaki. Enki was the Pe God who created them and endowed them with special knowledge; Enlil, his Je brother, wanted to keep them in line and in their place as slaves. The same stories were covered in the Bible where Enlil's actions were framed as "God" and Enki's as "Satan" - with the snake, etc.  So there have been different perspectives on the same stories throughout history. And I do think things are turning more in favor of the trickster lately, but this will change very quickly because there's a conservative comeback.

Yet this shows that tricksters can be heroes, but not all heroes can be tricksters and not all tricksters are heroes.

Yeah. And also Fe leads can be heroes, and not all heroes can be Fe leads, and not all Fe leads are heroes.

[Anonymous]

@animal,
I think perhaps we are getting to a closer understanding. As I said, I don't think the Fe behaviorism profile, just like the Se behaviorism profile, is about Fe or Se leads, nor is the mythology solely based on Fe or Se leads. In saying that Fe's "spiritual experience" is of the hero archetype, it is not saying that Fe leads are heroes nor that all heroes are Fe leads, nor that Se leads can't be heroes or that no heroes are Se leads. I think at this point, what would need to be defined is what exactly is a "spiritual experience" and why is it connected to mythological archetypes and how/why it is connected to the cognitive function itself (this is what I have been processing). So far I think it's supposed to entail a phenomenological experience, not a "noun" or "adjective." So the "experience" of Fe is epitomized in the hero "archetype", not that Fe users are or become "heroes" nor that no other user of other cognitive functions can be a hero or desire to be a hero.

[Animal]

@scientiam
Yes! One thing that drew me to this forum in the first place, before I even knew my own type, was the use of mythology along with the functions.
I have never seen it as "every Fe lead is a hero and every Se lead is a trickster." It's more that the energy of that particular mythology is linked to what the function represents on a grand scale.  It's hard for me to explain this in words because it's very intuitive for me, but I understand that the essence of the mythology is beyond 'individuals relating to it,' and also that people who lead with that function don't all need to embody that myth by default.
However, I do think we fall into our own myths whether we like it or not. I've seen this as I see "underneath" people's art and I tend to get to the deeper themes. For instance I had not known my type was Se, but the trickster showed up in many of my own collages and art, in so many ways, before I got here, for decades.
[SPOILER]
Kali/ Animalism



In the flow/ channeling



Vulgarity/Lust


Slave to desire/ fire, 'open' to sin, without boundary

Hunter. My original song lyrics written on the photos


Aphroditic, no limits


My male alter ego (yes, that's me in the photo, dressed as a man)

Me and me 😉

[/SPOILER]
Again, it's not about relating. It's what you show and what you embody. And I do believe that, since this theory applies to humans,  these themes do show up in the humans that embody that type. It's the people that make the types, not the types that make the people.
The themes show up. You just have to know where to look. This is why I typed @ivory as Ti even while he kicked and screamed.  I saw a certain 'rigid stillness' in his collages, his aesthetic, his embodiment of 'cosmic order.'
It's not about relating, it's about what you embody whether you  like it or not.
And I also have a lot of art about phoenix rising from the ashes, since I am very traumatized by very serious illness that robbed me of my voice, when music was everything and I was doing my practicing and obsessing over that music career since I was 5 years old. But I portray it very differently than Fe. It's not about building a new self, but rather, about staying true to myself and rising from the ashes unchanged. Returning to my origin. The colors of the trauma are woven into my wings, so that every time one version of me is destroyed, a new one rises, with all the power of the last one, but also more.
For me, it's more about the rhythm of the world; the pulse of time. Change is constant, but the same patterns repeat. It's cyclical. We just have to cross the bridge and blow it up to reach the end of the song, and then we may return to the beginning again.
[SPOILER]





[/SPOILER]
That's why I think myth has to be specific. As we discussed in another thread, Mentor or Messiah is highly specific to Fe and no other function, but 'hero' is universal.
I'm just not sure if hero, or 'rising from the ashes,' is quite accurate for the way Fe (specifically) shows up, or what it represents. But I understand that all the myths are universally accessible to everyone; it's just that... we do tend to embody our own. And we have to be specific about how we capture the themes that do show up.

[Animal]

@scientiam
Check out the first page of my website 🙂
I wrote this before I got here or knew my type. It is an attempt to capture the culmination of my own themes.
I have a lot of cyclical themes, renewal, and themes that are obviously Se, like "So carnal it's spiritual."
http://ericaxenne.com/
I think it captures the inspiration-cycle of Pe, without me even knowing it 🙂 the idea that songs write themselves through me and bring 'catharsis.'  Actually, catharsis is a good way to define my own phoenix themes.
 

[Anonymous]

@animal,
Very interesting, I like this line: "We are strangers to ourselves until we face the mirror and meet the eyes of humanity."
Also this: "On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed."
Instead of saying that I want to expose my "true self" through my artwork (which is film), I would say I want to expose the truth of my "experience". My recent experience and confrontation with the depths of the mind definitely gave me some creative avenues to explore, but your artwork is so visceral that it is very "otherworldly," it makes my "reality" structured/reality breaking vision of art pale in comparison. I would have to access some deeper instincts to get there, and I don't even know if I can get there without some psychic damage lol

[Animal]

Instead of saying that I want to expose my “true self” through my artwork (which is film), I would say I want to expose the truth of my “experience”.

Hehe, well now I'm very curious to see it 😀  but that's interesting and makes sense to me, coming from someone who has Ti rather than Fi. My father is NiFe II-I and doesn't even feel he has a 'true self' to discover, and Ivory was half agreeing with him once when we had this argument, and I was feeling like, how dare you disagree with me that there's a self! hahahah 😀

My recent experience and confrontation with the depths of the mind definitely gave me some creative avenues to explore,

Ohh, what is the depths of the mind? Like the inner workings?

but your artwork is so visceral that it is very “otherworldly,”

:O  The first time I said "so carnal it's spiritual" I was describing on an enneagram forum, offhandedly, how I listen to music when I shower and I feel so absorbed in the experience. The person I was talking to, thought that one line was so amazing, and then I started saying it more and realizing how incredibly true it is for me, and how it's central to describe my state of mind & being.
When you say 'so visceral that it's otherworldly,' I guess you're getting at the same thing, and it's interesting to hear this coming from others who experience my work that way. Is it because it's kind of 'oversexed?'
Moment to moment I'm such a twerp 😛 and shy, ungraceful and clumsy. But I capture my inner experience by letting the art 'come through me' and just being a vessel for whatever is there. And then I realize that other people really don't tap into those carnal sentiments at all, whereas for me it's just so natural and impossible to NOT do that.

it makes my “reality” structured/reality breaking vision of art pale in comparison.

Reality breaking vision actually sounds pretty cool to me. 🙂
Do you like David Lynch? I think he's been typed as Delta ST?  I find his take on reality/dream to be so intuitive. It really speaks to me; specifically in Mulhulland Drive.

I would have to access some deeper instincts to get there, and I don’t even know if I can get there without some psychic damage lol

Interesting :O was there one piece in particular or, what was it that made you feel this way? I'm very intrigued haha.
Maybe this is because your Se is unconscious? *headscratch*
 

[Anonymous]

@animal,
I definitely don't "feel" a "self" most of the time, I "feel" like I have primarily a mind that thinks and I am conscious and aware of its thinking and I relate that to being my "self." When I meet people, it is like I am disturbed out of my mind and I just start saying things in the moment to relate to them. I have to be fully "aware" at some point that I am talking to someone to get my thoughts aligned to the situation and to try to be authentic (unconscious Fe?)
Here a video I did years ago for a class, however, it doesn't represent what I am currently envisioning.

Yes, by the depths of the mind I mean the inner workings, the mechanisms, the labyrinths and mental constructions of reality and meaning.
I don't think it is otherworldly because it has sexual/sensual tones in it, (I've seen way more sex in other art, without it being "visceral") although it is part of it. I think it's peeling more behind what sex is, what instinct is in itself and trying to express it through imagery and accomplishing it by transmuting into sensual awareness. It may be that its because my Se is unconscious and I have always questioned these "instincts" in myself, any kind of "feeling" of release from the control of the mind was "crazy" and "damaging" to me, but my unconscious slapped me in the face with it at some point and got to see reality from a very different perspective.
Oh and I do like Lynch’s work, although I think at some point I felt that the dream/mystery in his work felt insubstantial in the end in trying to understand it as a whole.

[Animal]

@scientiam
That's so interesting!!  In the video I could feel the 'fear of visceralness' that you're talking about! :O
I may be missing the mark, because this is just how I personally experienced it. But when there was motion and distant people walking, the music was 'suspenseful,' like waiting for something to happen. But then when you zeroed in on these mannequins and human-shaped advertisements, the music got all intense and chaotic. Like  the combination of fakeness and humanness caused a psychic disturbance.
The whole thing was 'eerie,' but that one element was reactive, and it showed to me that there's an internal struggle for the viewer (the protagonist who is actually not IN the video but behind the camera, watching from outside) ---   a struggle with embodiment. The outside observer. Perhaps the mannequins "revealed" something that you wanted to keep hidden (from others or from yourself).
I bet you're an enneagram 5. Have you looked into it? Am I off?

[Author]

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