Self-Improvement & Sense of Purpose. Do you Need it? How does it Work for You?

Home Forums Model 1 Discussions Self-Improvement & Sense of Purpose. Do you Need it? How does it Work for You?

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  • #10344
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    My current understanding of the model, is that it has proposed Ji & Je are more about 'self improvement' and whereas Pe and Pi are more about living moment to moment. (I may be mis-stating the nuances here, so correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, Auburn or anyone else.)
    In my experience, the people I know who live moment to moment without purpose, are usually morbidly depressed (regardless of their function order). Then, when they find a sense of purpose, they feel more alive and free. This often goes hand in hand with recovering from depression.
    So the Pe descriptions of 'seeking stimulation' and 'boredom,' coupled with a lack of interest in self-improvement, purpose or direction, just read to me as a description of depression.
    There are many studies to back this up. Depression descriptions include a lack of sense of purpose, goals, or direction. A lack of interest in investment in anything long-term.  Also, many studies have shown that communities where longevity is most common, are focused on the people retaining a sense of purpose into old age.
    So I wonder how something so fundamentally human can belong to just one set of functions, and not the others?
    The way I see Pe and ‘freedom’ working inside me, personally -  is in having excess energy, desire and hunger, and feeling alive when I channel it toward something greater. Finding purpose, meaning; a reason to wake up in the morning. This is what gets me in the “flow.”
    How does this apply to you?  I elaborate on my own thoughts, and my questions, below.

    #10347
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I have always been deeply invested in a sense of purpose, and in self-improvement. Anyone that knows me would describe me as a person who battles my own shadow to defeat it and rise from the ashes, which has been proposed for the Fe description.  This has also been a central theme in my art and expression since I was young.
    I’ve been percolating about the nuances here; trying to wrap my mind around which parts are Fe and which parts are “human,” and which parts I may have emulated due to being Ji & Je conscious since a young age; vs. which parts are intrinsic to Fe on its own.
    My confusion and questions here, have implications for Je and Pe on the whole; and also J and P. So if I can get some clarity here, I might be able to tap deeper into all of the model’s underlying principles; and translate the experience of Se from a Se-lead perspective.
    So I am seeking feedback on this issue, in the interest of deeper understanding and, hopefully, being helpful. Copying from discord:

    @teatime
     – how do you feel about the idea that Pe (or P) on its own isnt concerned with self-improvement?
    and is more content to live moment to moment?
    you had once told me you were always trying to improve things and you got over it? or something like that. im curious how you conceptualize this in terms of being Pe lead and P heavy.
    i am J heavy, so i need some input here. it’s unimaginable to me, to not either embody or seek a sense of purpose and a (grand) direction toward which to channel my energy.
    i know this is my personality, not “circumstance” – since i lost everything, lost my voice when my ‘direction’ and lifetime training had been music, lost my autonomy (being on medication indefinitely), and even couldn’t walk and almost died from illness. i was consumed by insatiable hunger and sought short-term sexual and artistic conquests to satiate my hunger; not to mention that i became obsessed with working out (when physically capable) to release my energy, anger and suffering, which was choking me alive.
    and i took LSD and did a lot of dream work to rediscover a sense of purpose so i could breathe again.
    i don’t feel FREE without a sense of purpose; i feel that my energy and desire eats me alive.
    freedom is found in direction – building up skills, actualizing a project; aiming and chasing. otherwise, i’m just consuming , and it’s utterly unsatisfying.
    so the way I see Pe and ‘freedom’ (working inside me, personally) is in having all this energy and desire and hunger, and feeling alive when i am able to channel it toward something greater. finding purpose, meaning; a reason to wake up in the morning. this is what gets me in the “flow.”
    i am curious how this works for you as Pe_Pi.
    and if anyone else relates, or doesn’t. and how.

    #10351
    Tea
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    In my case, I see Ne as more of scout of the best the best, but it can't in itself rank priorities (Ji) or implement any kind of regiment toward any of the goals it has its eyes on. (lol, ne and eyes again). So it sets it sights rather high, but as a standalone function, I don't Ne is heavily involved in self-improvement. It's more looking into the candy store. Lots of candy stores. But not just any candy stores. The best candy stores. Because NF.
    I am a gatherer through and through. (Tangent but if we look at Ne as gatherer, we can get to Puer Aeternus from there. Kids are hoardy AF, and this encapsulates the sense of awe, "what if," and "Though we can't see it, it's just around this corner." I'm also happy with the myth of the Puer. That's how the outside world will always see us, so it's a helpful diagnostic.)

    #10353
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Teatime Thank you - this is valuable feedback.
    But what about your personal experience, if you don't mind sharing? How does self-improvement work for you?
    Do you relate to anything I said here:

     the way I see Pe and ‘freedom’ (working inside me, personally) is in having all this energy and desire and hunger, and feeling alive when i am able to channel it toward something greater. finding purpose, meaning; a reason to wake up in the morning. this is what gets me in the “flow.”

    #10356
    Tea
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I totally relate to that! Yes, when my direction isn't clear, I'm terribly depressed. I seem to thrive best with outside structure. The busier I am, the more wisely I use my time. I'm forced to become my incisive.

    #10359
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

     Yes, when my direction isn’t clear, I’m terribly depressed. I seem to thrive best with outside structure.

    This is exactly what I'm getting at.
    I don't need outside structure; however I do seek structure in the sense of having direction, goals, and steps to get to them. I am able to create that structure myself, without imposition from the outside - thanks to Ji and Je conscious.
    However, I suspected that even with Pe-Pi conscious, and no J, you might say that you get depressed if you don't have direction.
    In another thread, I argued that 'boredom' and 'lack of stimulation' sounded like a depressed person with no direction. Auburn essentially argued that he's not morally judging these people; that living moment to moment is a perfectly valid way of existing. (Again, this is my understanding of the argument. He may have meant something else by it; I'm willing to be corrected if I misunderstood.)
    I am not 'judging' them either. Why would I? But while I can see that different types of lifestyles as 'valid,' I do think that it's essentially human to seek purpose. And those who claim not to have purpose, and not to need it, are avoiding something.
    People who travel the world, for example, this requires having your eye on purpose. Most of us aren't independently wealthy. So in order to make a traveling, free lifestyle work for you - you have to work or find some scheme to make money, to support traveling. My best friend has no home and lives free, without even a car at this point, with two backpacks. But he has a life-long profession in mind-body work, which he takes with him wherever he goes. And he finds a sense of purpose in honing that craft and seeing the world. He enjoys the momentary rush of needing to find clients, acquire money, and survive; and then go on to the next task.
    But this is nothing even remotely close to 'aimless wandering.' There's still purpose in it.
    I also know someone well who fits the Se description, and may be SeTi; but he's morbidly depressed. He has no sense of purpose, is always bored, and stays up nights stressing out about his future (or lack thereof).
    There is a very strong distinction here. Someone who doesn't feel a sense of direction or purpose, will be depressed and thus bored.
    This is not Pe.
    Traveling, wanting to 'see the world,' wanting to experience specific things - requires a sense of direction and goals. It requires structure in acquiring funds or skills to survive. 'Sense of purpose' doesn't have to mean owning a company or producing a project. But one must channel their energy toward some direction, to simply feel alive.  Sitting there being 'bored due to a lack of stimulation' and having no need to find direction, induces feelings of depression and isn't fulfilling; so it is certainly not the 'spiritual story' of any cognitive function.

    #10364
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    This is copied from discord.  Candy Drinker had posted it there, in response to my questions. He doesn't have an account, but this is what he said:

    Boredom is a human condition, I think that a person, if bored, will start doing something that keeps them occupied and this shouldn't be difficult for a non depressed person whereas in depression there might be a huge lack of motivation and the depressed person won't likely do anything about their boredom and will continue to be bored. Maybe what Auburn is trying to say is that Pe users are more prone to boredom but a healthy Pe user will do something to overcome the boredom and will no longer be bored eventually.
    I am not an official Pe dom but I'm very likely a Pe dom and I can say, about the improvement thing, that I always try to improve myself, to improve my ideas and I'm often hungry for new knowledge so, admitting that I'm a Pe dom, here's a counter-example to the idea that Pe doms won't search for self improvement
    Anyway I wouldn't see boredom as a negative thing, I think it could be a very effective incentive to do things. Also in my personal experience I noticed that less smart people I know are rarely bored (exception for the extra busy people I know who have always something to do)

    #10366
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    It would be more appropriate to say the judgment functions are ..well, judging things as accurate/inaccurate, aligned/misaligned -- and thus creating a hierarchical understanding of the relationship between things: better vs worse. perfect vs imperfect. right vs wrong. This causes the world to appear as a place where things (or oneself) either are or are not in their optimal or ideal order. And that can motivate the J functions to bring things into a better order. The desire to improve something/someone/oneself in this case relates to a keen understanding of 'faults' or 'errors' within a thing, hence criticism/judgment.
    There are other ways of changing (i.e. "improving") one's situation, however:

    So it sets it sights rather high, but as a standalone function, I don’t Ne is heavily involved in self-improvement. It’s more looking into the candy store. Lots of candy stores. But not just any candy stores. The best candy stores.

    I like this, as I think it captures the difference. Pe is not a critiquing function, even though it generally understands the concept of greater or lesser (quantity/stimuli). So it goes towards the "more" but it's not a rigid quantification or segregation of parts. Pe by itself would be attracted to the shiniest and most delicious things, by virtue of their immediate novelty, captivation and real-time allure -- without placing them into a more longstanding framework of judgments. There's a kind of painful self-denial involved in the J functions, where reality is rejected if it doesn't fit the wider aim or plan ("yes, you love this show, but you have work tomorrow and it's late") ("yes it's delicious, but is it low carbs?")
    So when I talk about J functions and how they define self-improvement, it's important to know what this implied. Like any term, it's subject to interpretation and something like "improvement" is one of those words than can mean anything from a relativistic standpoint. But with J functions, I am talking about the kind of self-control and order-driven, premeditated improvement stated above.
    Now, there are other motivations for improvement that are not based on this hierarchical valuing + order/control. A Pe user may wish to improve their situation into something more lively and engaging, driven more by curiosity and thirst for experience than by criticism. Pe by itself "improves" its situation more spontaneously at every opportunity by seeking after fresher springs and finding new paths.
    Still, for more arduous and premeditated improvements, there would likely be a subordinate use of the J functions, to help them understand what they want or don't want, so that their Pe may better know where to chase or what to go after. So for example, a PeFi l--- may consult their subordinate Fi/Te to figure out what to aim for and what's worth the work, but then proceed to use their lead Pe gathering/exploring to get there. In a J-lead, the criticism is more central, and the P functions offer perspectives, ideas and patterns that are instrumental in the "getting there."
    And to the degree that Pe types apply this sort of J self-regulation/criticism, their J signals will also increase. This lets us know that the quality belongs to the J axis. So to summarize, anyone can seek to improve their situation and themselves, depending on what we call "improvement." J has a hierarchical valuing system it uses to define improvement, and has a premeditated understanding which it then prioritizes above the situation (i.e. "it's bedtime") in order to keep to the plan. Pe seeks to improve its situation with drive to go after what it wants, to chase after desires and novel experiences -- but by itself it'll lack structure and discipline, even for getting where it wants to go. And subordinate Ji/Je are drafted to help them get there.

    Sense of Purpose

    "Sense of Purpose" -- is far too general a term to be useful anywhere, I agree. I don't think that's a J thing. A Pe function may find its sense of purpose to be to live a life filled with as much joy as possible, and to be expressive and free to be themselves. Or thriving in general in whatever they wish. We all want to feel alive and purposeful, but that's a different thing than a criticism-based approach to error-correcting oneself or the environment. That is what J does.

    #10373
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @auburn
    I am definitely up for agreeing that my personal case is unique and it is heavily influenced by J development - so I am not saying this to pick an argument about Pe per se; but to point something out about the system in general.
    I just wrote this on discord, moments ago:
    the kicker is for me i don't have much energy to do 'random ' things that aren't part of what really resonates with me
    like if i have to go to a party i just deflate
    i only used to go to parties, for example, if there was a specific guy that i was trying to seduce - and i would plan to take him away from the party.
    i don't have much energy for just 'random happenings.'
    or 'random space fillers'
    like, video games and tv have never interested me even as a kid.
    so personally, i dont have energy to do 'all these things' but just specific things which enliven me
    and those are always attached to long-term goals, purpose and expression
    if i don't see the point of it in terms of my own development and place in the world, i am not very motivated to do it
    being 'bored' implies that you just need Something - ANYTHING .
    --

    A Pe function may find its sense of purpose to be to live a life filled with as much joy as possible, and to be expressive and free to be themselves. Or thriving in general in whatever they wish.

    The thing is, @Ivory finds his purpose in living a life filled with joy, and being free of restrictions. He hates the Je world for imposing stupid bullshit on him and he would prefer to spend his time free, without a schedule, playing video games if he wants, frollicking if he feels like.
    My album title, Slave to Freedom, was based on another person who I saw as  a Slave to Freedom. (He agreed.) Ivory related to it immediately.
    But the original title - about me - was Freedom Broke the Exile's Heart.
    For me, if there's no purpose, no structure, no step by step process with goals  - I feel empty. I've been like this as a kid. This is why I had a career at 13.
    I find freedom in having direction, and actualizing something. Whereas Ivory finds freedom in breaking free of it.
    And my father, a Pi lead, is a lot like me. He also finds freedom and feels alive when he has a long term plan. Not to mention, he's polarized P.
    I don't find any freedom in free time without structure, limitless fun and enjoyment. Those words register to me as boring. What excites and stimulates me, is goal, purpose, direction, challenge.
    And I know I'm not alone. Many other Pe leads have said similar things - famous ones that I follow (Amy Lee, Milo) -- and also people I know personally, and people on this forum.
    So maybe this comes from my J functions, but then how would you explain the fact that Ivory, as a Ti lead , resents any structure imposed on him and finds more value in enjoyment than I do? Is this "Je?"
    The other part of this, is that Ivory was miserable - when he had nothing to fill his time but video games.  While he resented the world for imposing limits on him, he also wanted to find The Thing Worth Doing. (Exactly what I have always done.)
    Neither of us find any motivation to get out of bed in the morning without That One Thing driving us at the core. But on the other hand, he idealized "freedom" whereas I never did; I found most people's concept of freedom (including the one you describe here and ascribe to Pe) to be suffocating and idealistic.
    The Pe leads I know who fill their time with random nothing, are also depressed. I've never met, spoken to or  known an actual human who finds real freedom and joy in having absolutely nothing to do . It's just, some people idealise this state of mind, because they find themselves too depressed, anxious or disorganized to be able to actualize or discover any direction for themselves.

    #10376
    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    In relation to the post above, 'Freedom' could be seen as a freedom from the devils that you know. Grass is greener on the other side. J-person finding freedom in P and visa versa.

    #10378
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @ivory
    It definitely could be.  To quote what I said in the boredom thread:

    The idea of ‘boredom’ strikes me as a distorted perception of reality, and I wonder why people assume that it’s so natural and human. To me it’s an indicator that there’s a serious problem.
    There’s so much that I want to do and so much that I have to do – in order to achieve what I want to, and also, in order to survive.  I am not motivated to just  do ‘random things’ to fill the space, whatsoever; but I always have steps I can take toward actualizing the visions, dreams and goals that exist in my life. So – how would it even be possible to get bored? And if such a thing would occur, I would wonder – why? What is missing?

    I have never been interested in television or video games, or "random space fillers," even as a child. I always had vision, direction.  One of my theories about why I am less prone to boredom, is that I trained my mind to focus and not to expect immediate gratification. To quote myself again;

    I taught myself to not expect immediate gratification. Unbeknownst to myself, I avoided poisoning my mind. I also trained my mind early, due to the pressing demands of my ambition around music.
    And I believe this may be a bigger factor in people getting “bored” than being Pe. Most of us were raised by television and video games, which trained our minds to expect immediate gratification and stimulation. We were also raised in a generation where “every child counts” and, at least in USA, the education is too easy. We aren’t challenged, aren’t taught to think critically, aren’t held to standards.
    Maybe this is one factor contributing to why people get ‘bored.’  I wonder if this state was so pervasive in previous generations, or if more people were able to concentrate.

    I have a hard time seeing this as 'the grass is greener' when I've always been this way. It's not like as a kid I just lost myself in  random television and entertainment; and only now I'm saying 'I need to change.'
    I just don't see this propensity in myself - to find 'freedom and enjoyment' as an ideal - at all.
    But perhaps I take for granted that I'm "already free" in a way you are not.

    #10380
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Ok let me rephrase this.

    A Pe function may find its sense of purpose to be to live a life filled with as much joy as possible, and to be expressive and free to be themselves. Or thriving in general in whatever they wish.

    I find fulfillment in being a vessel through which passion emerges. So there is some truth in what you have said here, @auburn. However, while my passion is to express, my purpose is to polish the vessel - meaning, to challenge myself to improve as an artist so that I'm an appropriate vessel through which these sentiments may emerge, in whatever craft I choose.
    So this is Ji and Je, in service of Pe - 'being a vessel for passion' , selfhood, freedom - exactly as I experience it.
    I don't think there's purpose to be found in being 'free to be myself' because I take that as a given. What could possibly stop me aside from my own lack of discipline?  Therefore, I worship the idea of discipline, as an avenue toward expression.
    This is where @ivory and I differ - he feels his own internal structure limiting him, so he worships the idea of being set free.
    The idea of 'limitless enjoyment' as a life purpose sounds decidedly boring to me. I need a challenge, and a larger direction, to feel stimulated and alive.

    #10383
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    @animal
    In my experience, that the way I got out of a very deep depression is finding happiness in my Pe function, in freedom and exploration, to get out of my very heavy Ji and Je ideals/perfectionism which became a sort of jailhouse in my psyche.
     

    #10384
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @scientiam
    Yes! This is basically what @ivory and I were saying. He's TiSe, so he finds freedom in breaking free of the J 'shackles'  through the use of his Se, which in his case, is developed.
    For me, I find freedom in dedicating myself to a purpose. Without that, my life feels utterly empty.  As I said in discord:

    my hunger, my desire, my passion; fuels me
    if i don't have somewhere to put it, then it becomes a force of destruction

    For people who are J-leads, perhaps it is important to loosen the shackles of categorization (Ji) and goal-oriented action (Je).  But for P-leads, it may be equally important to instill some sort of discipline and purpose, to avoid becoming forces of random destruction motivated by excess energy (Pe) or imploding on themselves (Pi).
    So I don't think that aimless wandering without direction, is really what fulfills a Pe person. This simply isn't fulfilling to anyone; though people who are not Pe-leads may romanticize the apparent 'freedom from shackles' that Pe people represent to them.
    But claiming that it's "fulfilling to live moment to moment" is a dehumanizing romanticization of how the life of a Pe lead actually looks.  Moment to moment randomness doesn't fulfill anyone, even if it serves as a positive addition for J-leads to incorporate into their otherwise 'jailing' mindsets.
    A major identifying symptom of depression is perpetual boredom and a lack of structure, purpose and direction.

    #10385
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    For any J-leads who are writing or interpreting descriptions, perhaps there's some projection going on -- where their own need to incorporate P into their lives - makes them think that P represents freedom and a lack of shackles. However, being too free, without direction, discipline or definition, is a different set of shackles which P leads may struggle with and it feels very different on the inside. We have just as much need to find freedom in incorporating J, as J-leads do, in incorporating P. Does that make sense?

    #10392
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I don’t have a lot of time for an in-depth post here, but I want to chime in just to say that I am a Pe lead who idealizes freedom from the shackles of J, esp Te.
    I need structure, though I crave freedom from it. I want the romanticized life of a carefree hippie, but such a carefree life also scares me.
    I like to keep a goal in mind during any given period of my life - little things like learning new skills, self defense, small challenges for the sake of challenge itself. But I’ve never been one to seek a serious long-term goal or specific life-purpose.
    My ‘purpose’ is to explore and learn and grow, but taking it one day, week, or year at a time.
    Regardless of whatever mini goal I have going on, I don’t spend my every waking hour focused on it. I enjoy fun for the sake of fun. Video games, tv, stopping for a spontaneous walk in nature on the way home from an errand, even a party once in a while (though too much of that will stress me out from overstimulation rather than disinterest).
    In summary, I frame small segments of my life with goals to feel grounded, but I have lots of unrelated fun for funsake in between the work. I wish I didn’t need structure at all.
     

    #10394
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    @animal,
    Wouldn't "too free" be a judgment in the psyche and therefore Ji or Je? I'm confused as to whether we are talking about Pe leads or the Pe function only.
    By this I mean: a Pe lead still has functions that are at different levels of integration and hierarchy, but their primary equation in the psyche will be of the "freedom" to explore moment to moment interests, whatever they are. At some point, doesn't Je or Ji in the psyche have to find a "reason" and "outcome" for all this exploration? And isn't this where the judgment of "too much freedom" comes? Doesn't the  Pe energy at that point become about fulfilling Je and Ji's conclusions/rationalizations/judgments about how Pe is being used?
    In contrast, my Ji and Je judge every action I take of whether it fits or achieves my identity/goals. Watching a show on Netflix that I'm curious about (Pe) in then becomes a whole "life choice," as if this one episode both defines me (Ji), my beliefs and actions (Je) throughout my whole life (Pi).
     

    #10395
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @shelley
    In enneagram, what you describe is very typical of 6w7 and 7.  The sense of 'needing freedom.' However, it is very atypical of heart-types, whose intrinsic makeup is around seeking meaning, purpose and value in the world.
    I don't want Pe to be mistaken for 6 and 7. There are plenty of 2, 3 and 4s who are typed as Pe leads and who have a deep need to embody something of intrinsic value, and which will be valued in the outside world.
    So, someone's specific 'ideals' may be more motivated by their enneagram than by their cognitive type. And what you say here, fits perfectly with 6w7 which is also @ivory's type - and he shares your idealization of freedom from shackles.
    The two of you share this exact mindset, though your types are directly opposite in CT and you would say it in different words.
    You echoed my concern in talking about the enjoyment of taking on skills and momentary challenges. And that's what I'm saying - that Pe will seek challenges, skills, and projects to fulfill them; something beyond JUST momentary stimulation to fill the space.
    By no means, do I believe that 'sense of long term purpose' has to apply to everyone universally. I just think that it's universal to seek direction and challenges and skills and mastery. Self-improvement as well.
    What isn't universal - and what is more HEART TYPE (enneagram 2, 3, 4) - is the need to embody your own sense of value in a more long term way; to fulfill your image ideal. Simply put, to "be somebody."  This will apply to heart types across the board even if they are Pe.
    So I think it's an incorrect way to categorize Pe, to say that their 'ideals' are around freedom. Someone's personal ideals is unrelated to their functions.

    #10400
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Good discussions. The more I try my hand at typing the more I can feel how different the "energies" of each development level really are, and that's just within the same type! The complexity truly is staggering, and it makes sorting through the subjective details involved in parsing out a system of this complexity something of a nightmare O_O. But I think that discussions like these are a good way to keep moving forward 🙂

    #10402
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @rondo
    Thank you! I find a lot of value in these discussions too.
    Let's use the example of Milo Yiannopolus, who Auburn typed as SeFi I-I-  .  He has been banned from several countries, suffers from people attacking him and his husband physically, loses a lot of money because he can't lecture in certain places due to his views. But he is a 4w3 and therefore he has a heart-types need to be somebody.  To represent something, to fulfill his image ideal - at any cost.
    The way he goes about it is by embodying the 'trickster' . But he pours his blood, sweat and tears into THIS ONE THING which he sees as his central purpose, at least for now. And he makes sure others see him doing it.   There are many Se types who live simply to enjoy sensations, experiences and discoveries -- but these are likely to not be image types.
    Anyone who is an image type has a deep need to be someone, to be seen as someone, and to fulfill their image's ideal. They tend to be attracted to long-term realizations of said ideals, so that they may 'represent this' phenomenon in the eyes of others. For some (usually threes), this can take the form of fulfilling concrete goals that change over time; while for others, there's a deeper need to embody meaning (usually fours). But either way, simply 'waffling through fun ideas and experiences' will not fulfill the intrinsic egoic NEED to have personal value.
    And I have noticed an abundance of head-types are Ne leads, while many image types are Se leads; though it's not a one to one correlation. Image types aren't content to learn things for the sake of it and remain in the world of ideas for their own enjoyment. They need to embody something of value in the eyes of others. This is a need that runs very deep and it cannot be lacking in 1/3 of the population (image types) who happen to lead with Pe.
     

    #10410
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @scientiam
    It may be that Pe on its own represents exploration for the sake of curiosity, and J on its own represents judgments about it.

    In contrast, my Ji and Je judge every action I take of whether it fits or achieves my identity/goals. Watching a show on Netflix that I’m curious about (Pe) in then becomes a whole “life choice,” as if this one episode both defines me (Ji), my beliefs and actions (Je) throughout my whole life (Pi).

    I strongly relate to this. I don't find any fulfillment in just 'doing stuff to do it.'  Shelley, who is also PeFi III -  says that she changes hobbies often and idealizes the idea of being free, but I can't relate at all, because I idealize embodying my ideals.
    So yes, each function may have a different role to play here, and a balanced psyche would have a good relationship with different functions.  But the idea that Pe leads are 'content' to just roam free or that, as a whole, they have ideals around being free from shackles -  isn't true in my experience. I know Ji leads who have this ideal, and Pe leads who don't. Someone's personal ideals are extrinsic to their function hierarchy.

    #10411
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    The way I see it, enneagram is an ego-fixation which has a large role to play in determining what our ideals are, whereas functions are tools that we use to enact them.
    Even if I take my own personal typing out of the equation, I cannot see any pattern in my life in which Pe leads are more likely to idealize 'being free with no obligations' than any other type. This is a human ideal that some people fall into for various reasons and some don't.  Just as having a 'sense of purpose' is an ideal that some humans fall into and some don't.

    #10412
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I mean, I have more staying power on these threads than the rest of the forum combined, with the exception of Auburn himself. Clearly I am hyper-focused and determined, and I don't give up until something is resolved. This annoys people and makes them hate me but I just won't stop because I don't see the point in living if I am not standing up for what I believe.
    My reasons for investing myself in this forum run deep. I believe in the project, in Auburn and in the helpfulness in this system for people to understand themselves, each other, and make major discoveries about the human mind. I don't care about having a leadership role or being acknowledged in any way; I just do this because the cause itself (and Auburn's person) moves me.
    But that means the forum has to deal with my relentless determination. It's part of the package. Either that or get rid of me. Enough hate and hurt feelings will eventually get me to shut up but then I would take my ideas elsewhere, since I won't rest until everything makes sense.
    The only things I invest my time in, are typology and my long-term writing and music projects. I don't have any other extraneous interests. My focus is hyper-centered on these very few things, for decades, and they all tie together because I use typology to help make distinctions in my writing (both enneagram and cognitive).
    I'm aggressive in my pursuit of truth here.  In my personal writing, I spend a lot of time relentlessly correcting mistakes. I've been editing and revising the same draft now for several years.
    I am just not a moment to moment distractible person, even in something that might seem as arbitrary as a forum. (It isn't arbitrary for me - but it's not my main, number one, central sense of purpose and focus in life.) I have staying power, determination and relentless  pushing. For that you can thank my Te I suppose. But where's the Pe? 😉
    This is not a moment-to-moment "free" attitude. I am a person that knows what I want, and will not be stopped from getting it.


     
    I do think I'm Pe first but I'm just making the point that the 'passivity' being ascribed to Pe, may not actually be native to Pe. It may be more like enneagram 9 (in the passive 'anything goes' parts), enneagram 7 or 6 (in the idealization of freedom), and other things that are actually unrelated to the basic metabolism of Pe.
    I do agree with some parts, but not all.
    I'd just like to see more coverage of hunter-gatherer mentality; the Ni and Si spectrum working in tandem with Ne and Se; and in the Se description - realism.
    If the Ni description is depicting a Shaman, then I want to see those potentials covered in Se also.  Ni people do not get born as Shamans. They work hard to embody that particular potential.  So what happens when a Se lead works hard, and incorporates the Ni axis? This is left out of the descriptions and this is why it feels incomplete to me, though I love and appreciate a good portion of it.

    #10417
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    @animal,
    Yes, I think that the confusion was in Pe lead vs the Pe function itself which doesn't "idealize" anything. "Idealization" is a process of Ji.  However, Pe is a psychic function which in itself does explore and finds gratification in its moment to moment interests/curiosity. Idealizing (Ji) exploration and moment to moment enjoyment of current interests(Pe), therefore, is different than having Pe primary in one's psyche, in which such person may just explore and fulfill its curiosity without any idealization, only fulfilling its psychic hierarchy. A person, nevertheless, who is a Pe lead might "determine" (Je) that this is not all there is to one's whole life (JiPi) and search (Pe) for a worthy goal to accomplish (Je-Ji).  It seems to me that you "idealize"(Ji) your Je instead of your Pe, but I don't think this means that there are no Pe leads that don't idealize (Ji) their primary function.

    #10418
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @scientiam
    I completely agree with you 🙂 and I love you Ti leads for being so good at summing this stuff up. 🙂
    Can you explain why this is JiPi? (I think I agree, but I'd love if you can elaborate, if you don't mind..)

    this is not all there is to one’s whole life (JiPi)

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