Pe Descriptions. Should we focus on Hunter-Gatherer, Synchronicity, Channeling?

Home Page Forums Cognitive Functions Pe Descriptions. Should we focus on Hunter-Gatherer, Synchronicity, Channeling?

  • Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    The typology community runs into endless problems with people thinking they are INFJs.  I believe now that the undervaluing of Pe, and treating it incorrectly as a ‘bored child’  – is the linchpin behind why INFJ is so coveted and overtyped.  Auburn is always open to look at evidence that comes his way and reconsider; so this is not to villainize or criticize him, but to put our heads together and see if we can vocalize some major themes that may be missing from the common treatment of Pe.

    Auburn had asked me to verbalize why I wasn’t happy with the Fe description and how to fix it; and I’ve been percolating on the matter.  I have come to realize this is a systemic issue, and it extends beyond “Fe descriptions.” It comes down to how Pe is being conceptualized and how it’s not quite hitting the mark.  I’ll copy a post from another thread on this topic.

    —-

    Having spoken to many Pe and Pi leads on Discord, and knowing other Pi and Pe leads irl, I have to say that the “shamanistic” channeling of energy belongs to Pe, not Pi.

    I’ve had visions all my life, synchronicity; my NeFi friend is like this too.

    Here, and in most other places, Pe is treated like a childish, “I’m bored, I need more stimulation” function. While all the other functions are given these deep, glamorous descriptions where they tap into the aether in various ways,  both Ne and Se are described as being children  that are bored and have ADD.  Ne is ‘seeking intellectual stimulation” and Se is “doing skateboarding tricks.” All for fun.

    In reality, this is not how things pan out. Some Pi leads, Ji leads and Je leads are dull, bored, boring or stupid, just as some Pe leads can be.  But the descriptions make those types sound like the baseline is one of intelligence and wisdom; whereas the Pe baseline is treated as a 1D idiot who just needs some stimulation.

    I do think Auburn resolved some aspects of this, tapping into the depths, but I think there’s still more synchronicity, “visions” and tapping into the “flow” and dream-life that is missing from our current understanding of Pe.

    This is why most Pe leads think they’re Ji or Pi based on descriptions. Because we simply are not being given credit for the actual talents that we have.  The structural model treats us as “needing stimulation” and being “open ended” with “no need for self improvement” and “no interest beyond the immediate stimulation in the moment” when in fact, both Se and Ne are capable of tremendous virtuosity and channeling the rhythm of the world.  Even in their most basic form, I— .

    There’s a certain virtuosity in tapping into the vivid dream life, gathering impressions moment to moment and weaving together predictions, foresight and visions that is positively not acknowledged in any description anywhere; even though it’s pervasive among all the Pe users everywhere. These are often the ones that are spiritual, tapping into the aether etc.

    The problem is that Pe leads aren’t writing descriptions. We may appear chaotic to the outside eye, and we are a little chaotic   but there’s a rhythm in our chaos, that we are tapping into , and others don’t get it.

    I’m still percolating my own Se description and how to resolve some of this.

    I think Auburn comes closer to resolving this than anyone has before. But the more Pe leads I meet, the more certain I am that there’s something huge missing from the Pe descriptions and some of it is being given wrongly to Pi. For instance I’ve talked to a few NiFe’s about my vivid dream life and predictions, and they can’t relate to it.  There’s a whole spiritual side here that is pervasive among Pe users. All the other functions get these deep spiritual treatments aside from us. Have you noticed that?

    So this is why so many people mistype as Ni. Jung was prejudiced against Pe, and extroverts in general. There’s all this deep intelligent glamour around other types, so anyone with high ability in ‘cosmic channeling’ would think they’re Ni instead of high Pe.

    When reading a Pe description, the word that comes to mind is “shallow.”  One could argue that any function on its own is “shallow” – however the other descriptions aren’t treated this way.

    • This topic was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    In summary:

    There are dumb people of every type, who are shallow and bored.  This type of person is treated for the ‘baseline’ in the Pe descriptions, whereas other types ‘baseline’ in the descriptions are quite spiritual and deep.

    I have no problem with acknowledging negative trends that come up. Something like “Se leads show up more among criminals” – I’m all for approaching and examining this. However:

    I have not noticed Pe people being more prone to boredom than other types. I’ve lived with a lot of people and the ones that are most often complaining about boredom are introverts!

     

    I simply don’t find the “boredom,” “restless child” and “constant need for stimulation” to be a thorough or realistic treatment of these types.  Rather, it’s about a ‘hunter-gatherer’ mentality, as @teatime pointed out once, and the flow state, as @faeruss called it. I suspect this is the linchpin of Pe, and the ‘seeking’ quality stems from this.  This also leads to big spiritual insights, synchronicity, channeling the cosmos, etc.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
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    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @animal Yes, that’s right! In art school they would tell me my art was shamanistic: a gateway between worlds. This baffled me at the time as I wasn’t consciously trying to make it than way. My dreams are insanely vivid and prophetic and I have visions daily. Synchronicities and signs all guide my decisions and I see everything in the universe as connected and interdependent. My third eye is incredibly vivid as well. I’m into all the woo: astrology, magic, tarot, etc and practice it daily. According to Human Design only my crown and third eye chakra are connected and active while the rest of my body is disconnected, open to suggestion, and my dominant planet is my 12th house Neptunian Moon. This makes me the High Priestess in Tarot.

    Ne/Si is always said to reject this kind of thing.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Elisa Day.
    Elsie
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    on mysticalcrazystuff
    yea i should paste some DMs/PMs here at some point //// *brainnote*

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Well, I have to disagree with you @animal yet again, this time on multiple accounts.

    Firstly (and I know you don’t intend to but) the language of your OP is incredibly strawmanning my view of Pe. I do not paint Pe as just “a bored child”, nor do I think I strip it of depth compared to any other functions. If you think this is the case, I’d like to see more clear sentences. Both Se and Ne profiles have an incredible level of psychologization & inner material.

    There are dumb people of every type, who are shallow and bored

    I don’t think my profiles of Pe/Ne/Se are at all shallow, or painting anyone out to be shallow. I don’t see how you can view it as painting people out to be dumb, and these seem like very personal judgment calls based on your own views. Others might see the same descriptions in a totally different light. Please provide me with more detailed comparisons of why you think so, because otherwise this sounds to me like a personal gripe/envy with Pe-lead not getting the same level of (perceived) ‘flashy’ descriptions as others, even if that’s not even the case. Or it seems like an attempt to further control the description of Pe, specifically, so as to have it fit you better. I’m sure this is not what you meant but again, I think your communication style and mine are clashing here again.

    I have very good reasons for writing them how I did, and I’m not shy about explaining why. Which I’ll do below, but before that I have to say that I know that talking to a few discord members is helpful and all, but bear in mind that my descriptions are based on the larger population. And more specifically:

    • The Online Typology Community/Demographic… Is not a standard slice of the population. It is a specific division of the population composed of all types, but who are interested in questions of human psychology and personal identity. It therefore stands to reason that the selection bias makes all Pe-leads seem more heavily invested in such matters than the baseline.
    • Many Pe-leads here are not l— Development: Secondly, a lot of our members here have non-standard development. The descriptions of not just Pe but all the functions is prefaced by saying: “The focus of this article is to paint as complete and undiluted a picture of [ x ]’s behaviorism as possible, in an abstract sense and without modulation from any adjacent functions in a type’s hierarchy.
      – – – – – –
      In other words, it is capturing Pe in isolation and in the purity of its process. This means that, naturally, it’s not going to manifest that way within a person’s hierarchy. The Pe function can best be evaluated by examining a wide range of l— developed individuals, and not just in the typology domain but across all samples. When I do this, I find the Pe description to emerge quite well. And if you’d like to contend this, the right way to do it would be to take all NeTi l—, NeFi l—, SeFi l— and SeTi l— samples in the database and extract out similarities, especially as the explorer types are actually finished (the only EQ that is)

    So to make this distinction even more clear, saying “Pe-leads are not like that” is not the same as “Pe is not like that.” The description of a whole person will differ from the description of an isolated function. But it is not correct to append material onto Pe that is actually the result of its combination with other processes in the psyche.

    The description of Pe should not be saturated with adjacent material. I felt that you tried to do this twice already, first by appending Je material onto Pe due to how you feel your own native state has more Je (Pe+Je). And then again by modifying out ‘sports/cars’ because you didn’t relate to them yourself — when statistically we still do see a lot of athleticism connected to Se. And now I get the sense that you’re aiming to append Ni material to Pe, because you feel a personal trajectory there too.

    Shamanism

    The shamanistic tendencies of Ni (and the historian tendencies of Si) go beyond the engagement with those domains, and involve a kind of establishment of the domain itself.

    Prototypically, the Ni shaman is a kind of religion-starter. This is because their singular eye comes to view the phenomenology of life a given way, and that panoramic view births an “ism” / a dogma, per se. This is what lends them the quality of counsel. A shaman is a person who is consulted, and they take the position of authority on life. What we see with the Pe-leads is different. It’s best characterized in Chapter 28.4 in the SeFi section as:

    As we have previously discussed, the polar process is most commonly channeled for the agenda of the primary, and in the SeFi these far-reaching interconnections are pursued for their capacity to relate together and explain the events of the present. As such, interconnections are intuited to exist beneath the immediate and sentimental and in some cases this stimuli can bring forth the larger pattern that lies underneath. For example, the SeFi may feel that an energetic network exists which touches and travels between the hearts and minds of individuals. A blending may occur where the inner radiation and spirit of Fi is given a physical definition; the SeFi may dabble in the reading of auras, the channeling of chakra or Ki energy. They may seek for the significance behind palmistry, tarot reading, taoism, kamasutra, and all manner of extrasensory arts. When the archetype is fully embodied, the SeFi may adorn her-self in eclectic and colorful attire, reminiscent of the indie FiSe, and establish themselves as an artisan of their particular interest.For the SeFi, this practice is born from an aspiration to fully assimilate and synthesize their polarity, yet a proactive novelty will propel this curiosity forward with all the energy of a Pe lead type. Unlike the NiTe and NiFe, the gypsy will more rarely be the originator of doctrines and will more commonly explore the pathways made available by those before them. They may lie under the wing of an NiFe guru or FeNi alpha visionary and learn from them what they can before traveling along another path.

    So you see, this tendency has already been described in the book.

    In short, Pi-leads lay down the worldview, while Pe-leads navigate it. So Pe-leads will often dabble in the dogmas that Pi-leads have generated as a reflection of their interpretation of reality.

    So a Pi Shaman/Senex is not merely someone interested in esoteric topics, but is one who builds up the domain itself– out of their own stable, chronological and episodic tracking of life at large. And this was part of what helped me crack the case with @umbilicalsphere as well — who was very interested in more Ni-esque domains, but he is a dabbler, not a founder-of-worldviews. In the case of Umbi, he’s an example of the Dabbling Theorist (as per Ch.19 of the book).

    How to bake in these definitions

    Lastly, and perhaps most fundamentally, is you can’t just bake things into the descriptions without starting from axiomatic premises. What, for example, would have been your rationality for Pe discipline? Out of what metabolism would that have been justified? Why is it there?

    Same with this. How would the principles of CT give rise to [ x ] effect? If you want to propose fundamental changes to the descriptions, you have to provide a rationale that is metabolic and that follows suit from the starting premises. Not something that’s reverse-engineered from a handful of cherry-picked members who share an affinity for [ x ] traits, and who happen to be [ Pe ] without any reasoning for why that is to be tied specifically to Pe, and is not due to one of a myriad of other factors which could include:

    • The influence of adjacent functions (especially if conscious)
    • Sheer personal interest
    • General human stuff

    I’m into all the woo: astrology, magic, tarot, etc and practice it daily.

    Assuming for a moment that you’re FiNe; that’s normal. Let me put it this way (just for the sake of simplicity):

    • 1) Ni-lead guru creates the woo.
    • 2) high-Ne’s and Ni users (even SeFi’s and FiSe’s) practice it.

    The cult leader needs followers, right? 😉 I think a lot of very charismatic Ni’s have had a lot of NeFi, FiNe & SeFi initiates (from looking at videos of Adi Da Samraj for example). First of all, Pe is highly curious and when it is Ne, the curiosity can go into esotericism quite naturally. Here is an old post about this with Ne’s showing interest in the aforementioned: https://cognitivetype.boards.net/post/19103/thread

    And if Pe is Se, then the same level of curiosity for the esoteric arises from polar Ni, in the form mentioned above in the SeFi Gypsy section. So all of this is appropriately explained with the given/existing Pe descriptions — when we factor in context, framing, and the influence of polar functions.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Auburn.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn

    I will address each of your points! I’m glad you understand I wasn’t attempting to strawman or to attack even if you felt it came off that way. It wasn’t my intent; but it seems we have established that our communication styles are just very different. I don’t yet know how to get points like this across in language that you understand.

    No, this is not about “envy.” It’s about the logistics of the types. You also thought “volition” wouldn’t apply to SeFi I— until you asked Bera, and she said it applied to her.  You have clearly chosen to see it a certain way.   You also said Pe on its own wouldn’t care about self improvement. So what about Einstein, who you type as NeFi I— and whose quotes are constantly about hard work and self improvement?  I mean, who is this “larger population” you’re talking about?

    Yes, the smartest and best among Ni dominants may be shamanistic. So you put that into the Ni description. Then, the stupidest and lowest among Se leads are bored and restless, so you put that in the description.

    I’ve shown the descriptions to several people in typology communities, and gotten a reaction like this many times. One friend who is ENFP, saw your descriptions yesterday and was telling me how unbalanced it was. She didn’t want to see any more of your descriptions, after having read Ni, Fe and Fi, which she loved; and then seeing the discrepancy with Pe. She just said.. this guy doesn’t like us. He’s prejudiced. He’s missing the point of Pe.

    I had not told her anything negative about you, or any disagreements we had. I did nothing but praise you and how amazing your work is. But when she saw the other descriptions, and then the Ne description, all my praise was useless because she saw with her own eyes that her “shamanistic qualities had been stripped from her.”

    I react this way because of feedback that I receive. Again you mistake it for being about “me” when it’s a lot bigger than that. I don’t speak up unless I see a real problem.

    You can rest assured that my self-image is in fact even more bloated and deific than you can possibly imagine; so I wouldn’t expect any description to encompass even the outermost reaches of who I am. 😉 But I do have a growing sense of how the ‘roots’ of a type apply to people in general. Remember, according to even you – it’s Ti that is solipsistic, not Se. I am not coming from a solipsistic angle, and yet you have a tendency to interpret me making it ‘about me.’   (Perhaps this is where at least some of our communication issue lies?)  In true Pe fashion, I’m commenting on wide trends that I’ve picked up through lived experience.

    Several other people ‘liked’ my post on the other thread so maybe someone else can explain this better. This is not about me.   It’s about several Pe-heavies seeing a “Ni” effect in themselves, and you making excuses for why their type creates a Ni effect instead of addressing components of their actual type that repeatedly create this effect.

    In the meantime, I’ll go through the list and answer as I am able.

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    Faeruss
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @animal @auburn

     

    There is a fair degree of cross-talking going on here, and I will attempt to act as mediator in this. But let me first say something directly to your point about samples. Yes, Discord is not a representative sample of the general population. The same is true of public figures/celebrities/athletes, however. Not every Se-lead is running around skateboarding, though certainly it can take such a form.

     

    Animal is first and foremost manifesting a discontent with the general CT culture as well as more generally. She agrees with most of what you write in your Se profile, perhaps disagreeing with the over-emphasis on edginess and stunts, which do not seem essential to the metabolic operation of extroverted concrete sensation.

     

    Secondly, when Animal talks of things such as synchronicity, channeling, and such, she does not seem to be conflating these with Pi. Her understanding of Pi is quite good, and I imagine her father being NiFe has contributed greatly in this respect, together with her perceptive nature. She is not saying Se-leads are coming up with paradigms or creating cults in the manner you describe, but rather that these things and interests can be seen as natural consequences of being attuned to the flow of experience. There is a lot of mysticism in here, a being at one with all that is or can be, that is embodied and felt, and this as well ties in to the idea of thirst, volition, and being hunter-gatherers. I don’t think Animal has a real problem with Pe-leads being about novelty/exploration, and how this would manifest by way of shadow as an aversion to boredom. This is not to be conflated with being bored, as anyone who knows a Pe-lead knows, they will quickly find a new thing to explore to “un-bore” themselves.

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Let me try to explain this metabolically…

    Pe as a function is real-time data gathering/absorption, with a refresh factor, so as to eliminate the old for the new. It is then captured by Pi, which is the precedent.

    Pe’s refresh factor causes a shorter duration cycle, which is what causes it to be contemporary in its focus, and also alert to the ever changing ‘now.’ But a consequence of this is that it will lack stability (on its own, when not paired with other functions), be prone to switch interests (refresh factor) and look for new grass fields elsewhere.

    What it finds, and where it looks, is a matter of ‘content.’ Some Pe’s find a fascination for bug collecting, others for hip hop, others for esotericism, others for athleticism, others for video games and others for music. I cannot bias the Pe definition towards esotericism as one particular kind of content. The root of Pe is generalized information gathering.

    The question of esoteric content, of all particular things Pe might explore, is necessarily contextual. It has to be contextual because Pe has no precedent, and it has to not have precedent because it needs to refresh our lens about reality every moment. And it has to refresh our lens of reality every moment, so that we are continually updated to the new ‘now.’

    ~~~

    As for why Ni does have mention of esoteric content, it has to do with it being a precedent-oriented function. It is archival, and in being archival, things don’t refresh. So in the behavioral profile (which is a step removed from metabolism) I go into the description of how it is that content is organized, over time, in the Ni user specifically. And it does manifest these longstanding thematic/karmic/shamanic tendencies.

    I simply cannot –even if I wanted to– make the same claim about Pe because in theory Pe can take an interest in anything. It is not content-bound, so I cannot add esotericism to Pe. However, behaviorally I do describe Ne’s intersection with the esoteric by saying:

    Spoiler:

    Ne: Serendipity & Flash Visions
    The Ne user’s capacity to synthesize such high volumes of information sometimes leads to spooky insights, uncanny realizations and predictions of the relevant situation. Suddenly a vision may flash before their eyes, stitched together from hundreds of unconscious micro-correlations accumulated through life; converging into one moment in time. This can lead to a semblance of clairvoyance where the Ne user attains some knowledge into the unseen causalities of the universe. They may come to deeply trust this sense, whenever they feel it manifest. However, these sudden flashes will not represent a stable ability and their appearance will be as unpredictable as their own inspiration. In other cases this can produce a habit of serendipity where the individual participates in a cosmic flow towards meaningful happenstances by consciously or unconsciously directing their energies in those vectors. The Ne user will attune themselves to the real-time synchronicities of the universe, ebbing and dancing in harmony with an eternally unfolding fractal towards undiscovered lands. At a more modest scale, the Ne user’s information synthesis will regularly evoke epiphanies when various information vectors — previously suspended in an unconscious superposition — click into alignment and burst forth immediate realizations that alter the fabric of their mind and their paradigm. In all of these cases the Ne user is rapidly altered — seemingly by a divine act — into a more true alignment with reality as it may exist at the widest scale possible.

    So I do make mention of how Ne can have esoteric tendencies, but they are necessarily transient — i.e. sudden flashes of serendipity.

    Now with Se, since it doesn’t marry Pe+N, the effect comes from it’s pair relationship in an oscillation with Ni (Se/Ni). I don’t see how you can want to append Ni qualities to Se, and this seems unnecessary since Se and Ni operate as a unit anyway. But if we are going to talk about the unit in its two separated components, then we have to parse out N to Ni and S to Se.

    The net effect may be that some Se-leads (not all) are very esoteric, but to say this is because Se has esoteric tendencies seems to be misguided. We can say Se/Ni as a whole does, and I do say that, but Se in complete isolation does not have that –at least not any more than it would have an interest for any other object(s).

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Auburn.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I’ll try a few comments here, starting from the beginning.

    Se: Heightened Focus
    The Se user will constantly be receiving a photographic feed from the outer world, and thus will have a heightened receptivity to sensory information, which can be both overwhelming when undesired and highly stimulating when accepted and honed. If this data absorption is sought after rather than rejected, the Se user will become so immersed in the ‘one thing’ in front of them, that everything else suddenly disappears. The Se user’s attention is cinematic; causing them to take in the world just as it appears with very high fidelity and this can lead to an appreciation for “realism” in the arts and other mediums. The focus of an Se user is linear, rather than divergent.  They will want to sink deeply into the experience of a thing, rather than spread themselves thin and broadly. Unsolicited tangents can be too distracting for them; jarring their attention and focus away from their present obsession.

    This is absolutely stellar.

    Even if the Se user has multiple interests- which they inescapably do – whenever they are immersed in the subject at hand it is with an acute intrigue.

    Se users can be pretty obsessive about one or two interests, but for the most part this is fine.

    This dedicated attention can create a hyper-vigilance and ability to mimic something after seeing it only once or twice. For example, if the Se user is trying to learn a new technical skill, maneuver or dance – they may observe the action and imitate the motion precisely in their own body through a translation of kinesthetic information. They may say to themselves “Ok, I saw him twist his leg here, arm there, waist half turn, landing on heels… let me imitate that.” If instead they are learning about a handmade craft, they may notice all the bumps, lumps, scratches, and dents in objects and be quick to see the subtle differences in colors and shapes. Volumes of non-verbal information will collide with their attention constantly and guide them to calibrate their personal experiences accordingly.

    In my lived experience, and from watching celebs that you have typed, and talking to people here; this kind of ‘breaking things down’ is more common among Ti-heavies and even Ni-heavies.  Se perceives things moment to moment. It doesn’t necessarily break things down by components.  So right away there’s some Ti bias here. I asked several Se leads if they related to this, and most didn’t.  This may be what you think you see them doing, and it may be what some SeTi’s do – but Se on it’s own is more “in the flow” and, you know.. Pe. It’s not really about figuring things out one step at a time.  So in this particular instance, I feel like we were given credit where it wasn’t due.

    What is it exactly in Pe that makes someone break down movements as per components?

    Se: Flow & Improvisation
    The most direct way this sensory calibration happens is through an active flow. For the Se user, flow is when the body/mind moves in rhythm with everything else in the environment, as if pulsing with the same energy. During these moments, the Se user exists in a 1:1 direct contact with life, which creates an intoxicating feeling. One gets lost in the moment as they fine-tune their rhythm with the situation. This can happen when they’re riding the waves of the ocean through surfing, hugging turns on a skateboard, freestyle dancing, freestyle rapping, beat-boxing and the like. The Se user will get “in the zone” and feel most in their element when they can perform in real-time, making up their next move as they go. Adaptation is essential to an Se user and there is nothing more adaptive than reacting instantly, elegantly and with no delay to every twist and swerve life throws at you. The closer they are to this flow, the more aligned they’ll feel. Life is most invigorating when they are perfectly aligning the needs of the body, their own desires, and the situation. It may feel like a symphony coming together in harmony, and indeed many Se users take to music production for its capacity to create this fluidity. In all their activities and ventures, whenever life is not flowing in this manner, the Se user senses it and will feel out of alignment. The environment will feel clumsy, suffocating and static.

    I find this section absolutely beautiful, and perfect and spot on, and one of the best Se descriptions (if not Pe in general) that I’ve ever seen – except for the last sentence – because Se tends to be proactive.  The environment doesn’t just feel clumsy and suffocating all of a sudden, because as @faeruss pointed out, we tend to get up and do something about it instantly. If things aren’t moving the way we want, then Pe people get up and move, and make it move. That’s the nature of Pe. Always in motion; as vultology has shown.

    Se: Vitality & Volition
    Se is also characterized by a sense of volition, as their linearity of focus quickly translates into a clarity of desire. There’s an implicit knowledge of what is wanted and, as a Pe function, a craving for its attainment. The Se type will be a go-getter; motivated to gather what it wants in a literal sense. Se will leverage the environment to work for them, being opportunistic and making the best of what they got. And the quest for this attainment will carry a delicious competitiveness, giving Se users an added layer of vitality, but also of a self-assertion in reality. The Se user occupies the place where they stand, making their will known by their very composure. Then, as they lock onto their target, they inadvertently create adversity as opposite wills always exist and chase after the same or competing resources. This only greater fuels their thirst for stimulation and arousal, as they get immersed in the hunt. The challenge of going after their pursuits will be part of the very flow they so delight in navigating, and this quest for vigor can often manifest in hobbies such as drag racing, martial arts, sports and other daring activities.

    Obviously I love this part 🙂 you wrote it with input from us.  Again, my only concern is the last sentence. If I had written it, the last sentence may have been more like this:

    The challenge of going after their pursuits will be part of the very flow they so delight in navigating, and this quest for vigor can often manifest in hobbies such as drag racing, martial arts, sports; or music, dance, acting, and other activities where they are using their body in daring ways or to ‘channel’ the flow of the world.  Many Se users get into heavy, vigorous training, pushing themselves past the limit and enjoying the thrill of the challenge.

    [Badly worded, as I lack your astuteness and clarity, but this is what I’m getting at.]

    Se: Boredom & Restlessness
    By the same token, not having dynamic movement happening will feel like stagnation and an absence of thriving. While Se users are prone to over-stimulation if the stimuli is unwanted, they also are prone to under-stimulation, and they need to constantly monitor this balance; adding or subtracting sensory experiences accordingly, in order to remain in an optimal state. When things are silent and unstimulating, a claustrophobia may be felt. Boredom sets in like a depressive weight. The Se user has a need to “move” and see; to scan the next corner. They’ll be prone to pack up their bags and head off into town on a whim. The Se user lives a mobile life, constantly making things happen as they encounter different situations. But this necessity for motion can also be a curse; interfering with family plans or the practical constraints of life. As children, Se user may be overly active an it may be hard for their parents to find a constructive outlet for their energy at all times. The Se user may have little tolerance for routine and get into trouble for misadventures undergone in an attempt to abate the dread of idleness. Family members may pressure them to stay indoors or not go out as much, but often the Se user will not listen and either sneak out or find a way to explore without permission.

    I’ve never met a Pe person who was ‘prone to understimulation.’ This is more how Pe can look when there’s a Ji function in front of it and the person has restless Pe, but doesn’t have the energy to do something about it.

    Se users tend to get up and move and make things happen. So I agree with half of this; the part about Se users sneaking out, exploring without permission and resisting the constraints of family life. I think this is very accurate. (And not because it applies directly to me; I  was a top student with heavy discipline, but I had Je. I’m talking Se in general.)  But the picture of a bored kid staring off into space doesn’t strike me as very accurate, since this type is always on the go, finding the way to get what they want.  Pe does not tend to just sit sendentary while staring away in boredom. If stuck in class they’ll draw, play music in their head, etc.   “I’m bored” is not a complaint I hear often from Se firsts, because they are masters at finding a way to not be bored.

    I think what @faeruss said was a good translation of what I’m getting at – that perhaps the need for stimulation is behind the constant moving around and breaking rules and taboos, but that ‘just sitting there bored’ isn’t really how it manifests.

    But there’s also more here… not all Se users live a “mobile life.” Many of them sit at home playing video games or indulging personal projects, finding ways to ‘unbore’ themselves without having to physically move around. Like how you explained with the NeFi II– descriptions, many Se users just don’t have that active a life. Not all can afford to just travel the world whenever they want. I also heard on discord that there are a lot of SeFi computer programmers. Is that true? If so then it follows that Se users can be sedentary and dedicate themselves to some kind of mastery or challenge. Perhaps the desire to avert boredom is what stimulates them to always “be in the middle of a project” or take something on, but it just feels like something in how this is worded,  suggests a very extreme dichotomy between “being chained down in boredom” and “running away” with no realistic treatment of how Se users bridge this gap.

    More in the next post, this might get long.

     

     

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn – our posts crossed! I was going over the description to be more specific, as you had suggested in the first post, and I’ll do that with the rest of the description too 🙂 but I hadn’t seen your response yet.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I’ll do the rest of these, then respond. Since I got going.. 😛

    Se: Persistence Effect
    At other times, however, the sensory stimuli is highly unwelcomed – making the Se user more keenly aware of disturbance than all others. The Se users’ sensitivity to stimuli becomes a double-edged sword when there’s a nagging noise in the environment such as an insect’s hum, a squeaky fan or crying baby. Temperature differences and potent smells can also be sources of frustration. Their Se won’t be able to ignore the aforementioned since, as an explorer function, every new “refresh” of the environment yields the same output – leading to a very real and somatic irritation. Ironically, their quality of attuned focus sinks more heavily in on the irritation rather than putting it out of mind, causing it to grow in their mind until it’s the only thing they hear or see; debilitating all concentration. At best this guides the Se user to seek the most pleasant sensory atmosphere available, and at worst it can cause open complaints and outbursts. Because of this tendency, whenever possible the Se user will craft their environment to match what their sensations can tolerate. They will play close attention to minimizing potential inconveniences and maximizing comfort.

    Yes, yes yes . Yes yes yes, and yes and yes. 🙂  This really gets at the metabolism, I feel.

    This doesn’t apply across the board of course, but I’ve often found that crowded or messy houses belong to high Ne users. 😀 There are MANY exceptions, as many Ne users of course are perfectly clean or even minimalist (like Devon) ; but it’s as if some of them can tolerate a sensory onslaught that would make me positively insane.

    Se: Ergonomics & Aesthetics
    Due to this careful crafting of sensory experience, Se users will often take to ergonomics. The look, feel and appeal of something becomes very important. How it fits in your hand, how the grip holds, how it throws, sounds and moves are all heavily considered. The Se user will want “the experience” of a thing to be enjoyable and free of micro-irritations. They will go to great lengths to make that happen in their own life; selecting objects based on their ergonomic and aesthetic appeal. They may be fans of designer brands, which are simply those that take the most efforts to maximize user experience. This leads inescapably to an appreciation for luxury, which is an extension of their need for completeness of sensational exposure. And although they may not always afford the highest luxury, the Se user will often take steps in that direction whenever possible. More than others, Se users understand how to create something seamless and often pave the way in domains of design and fashion. They will create things with beauty and convenience as priorities, while being simplistic and to the point. And due to being an explorer process, Se perpetually seeks newness of experience; leading it to be very contemporary. Se gravitates to the latest, causing them to be trendy or at least have a keen understanding of where the trends are and how they’re evolving.

    Ok …  I have mixed feelings about this. I think you’re onto something real, but it gets a little off track with the mention of ‘trends’ and ‘riches.’

    Se users are good at organizing the things that are right in front of them, to gain maximum pleasure and beauty. So we don’t always need to go out and overspend on luxury items in order to attain what may look like a luxurious state to others. However, some Se users are into luxury and spending lots of money on it. I have met lots of these people, but they are always Betas. (Even my father, who is Ni lead, is more like this than me.)

    The things about cars, money, lavish luxury, and trends; there’s a lot of Beta bias here, with heavy Fe mixed in.  I have trouble coming up with Gammas who do this (unless they are wealthy celebs).  Due to the Te pragmatism, and the Fi ‘self expression,’ there’s a lot less focus on ‘luxury/riches and trends’ and other social style trends, which are more about having an eye on “Fe” —   and a lot more focus on expressing one’s inner world through aesthetic, or using aesthetic to attain a result. I strongly agreed with your idea about Te/Fi and the possessive castle stuff, making a big castle to protect the princess; and FiSe princesses tend to like a lot of space to live out their creative fantasies.  But trends is much , much more Fe. And the obsession with fancy cars, I see this much more in Betas across the board, regardless of which functions are first or conscious.  This is an observation I’ve made of many people throughout my life starting with celebs and going all the way to people here on this board.

    I do like this section a lot, but I’d wonder if it couldn’t somehow attain more Gamma balance. Instead of “trends and luxury,” or, in addition; something about expressing one’s inner world or vision through aesthetic; or something about how some Te’s do it to make a brash statement of their own power (like Trump).

    Se: Sensual Energy
    While we all have an appreciation, capacity and need for the sensual dimension, Se being the sensory exploration process receives a double dose of this facet of our nature. No sensation is more direct, potent and contrasted than the sexual, and from this raw contact with the body Se receives a level of natural eroticism. The amplification of their senses extends to a type of libidinal awareness and intelligence. However, each individual can choose to explore or repress this tactile energy and indeed many Se users – whether by culture or moral verdict – will select to shun this part of themselves. However, for those who decide to explore it, this can add a contagious chemistry to everything they do. The Se user, so predisposed, can be a vixen and leave a seductive trail behind them as they explore and express themselves. They may not shy away from making themselves attractive and showing a little skin or muscle. As Se wishes always to explore all sensory domains to the utmost, this leads to a pointed interest in the subtleties of flirtation, pickup artistry and more exotic artforms. However, this can cause many Se users to grate against social repercussions and taboos. A girl may be frustrated by her mother’s old-fashioned conservatism or a man may be accused of sexual harassment for playful teasing or banter. Se, like Ne, is constantly crashing against the establishment as it seeks to break boundaries, peer around the corner and dabble with all available information with less consideration of restraint or temperance.

    100% yes. I have zero objections. I think you covered the sensual vixen stuff that I relate to, and also the reasons why some Se users might not see it in themselves. This coverage is to the point, explained well, balanced, fair and realistic.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    The environment doesn’t just feel clumsy and suffocating all of a sudden, because as @faeruss pointed out, we tend to get up and do something about it instantly. If things aren’t moving the way we want, then Pe people get up and move, and make it move. That’s the nature of Pe. Always in motion; as vultology has shown.

    Can I offer a contribution here, guys? I wonder, animal, if this might be a Pe + Je combi? I only ask because making myself “start” things is a big struggle and we had another member, Smoggie (Unseelie SeFi), who expressed the same struggles. We were lamenting how our lack of Je cripples us from doing things. Aub later typed her as having developed Fi and Te, though, so I’m not sure either. But by “making myself start” I’m talking about goals and targets which I guess are Je and that makes sense. I can’t stop Pe-ing though. Even in prayer/meditation. I’ve learned to “go with its flow” rather than trying to Pi or blanking. Just let my ahas flood me. By the way, guys, my ahas are near-constant.

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    on the Shamanism:

    Pi is the shaman-seer meditating on its place in infinite time and space, its connection to its ancestry and its peers.

    Pe is the shaman-dancer circling the fire and channeling  cosmic entities through its own body; a vessel to bring the eternal into the now.

    Obviously, both are shitfaced 😉

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Ivory.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Behaviors Under Stress
    Se: Addiction
    Like most people, the Se user is no stranger to a bit of wine or hard liquor. But due to the acuteness and physicality with which they experience life’s stress, the temptation to exhale problems through stimulants or sedatives is all the more pronounced in them than others. It is here where the Se user may dive into their vice to an excess until it becomes a source of debilitation. More than a few Se users have met a short end at the hands of an overdose. Given their sensitivity, an Se user would require an inordinate strength of will to resist sourcing to a physical outlet when times become roughest. Under stress they will seek for an immediate alleviation to the unbearable “here and now.” Their ability to think long-term may suffer or fade altogether as they become consumed only in how disquieting the present feels. This is especially the case if their Ni has made a pessimistic forecast, allowing them little hypothetical escape from their situation. Addiction then acts as a form of escapism and relief; one which is unsustainable at best and fatal at worst. It is in these moments when the Se user most needs to channel from external stimuli. When substances act as a replacement for external stimuli, the Se user may withdraw from the physical world; forgetting that out there is where all life, vigor and vitality is to be found. Substances act as a quick, but ultimately less stimulating replacement for the bliss that is better found in the music, rhythm and flow of a dance and in direct contact with reality.

    I bolded the last sentence because this is exactly what I feel like is missing from the vitality & volition section.  It’s not just about ‘being in direct contact’ and drag racing.  Drag racing moment to moment, is just another addiction.

    What gives the Se user ‘direct contact’ with life is mastering some skill which allows the life force to flow through them. When this long-term momentum is missing, they start seeking ways to make up for it moment to moment, such as drug addiction, oversexed behavior, rule breaking and drag racing.

    I have two Se-lead friends that died from heroin and I myself am a recovered addict, though my addiction was not heroin and was not as serious. I have a lot of experience with addicts and I can guarantee that a handful of these people are high Se.  Things like drag racing and causing rebellious trouble, are what happen when the Se user is unhealthy and out of touch with the “flow” of mastery.   Mastery is an outlet for vitality & volition; it allows a long-term plan and making your body into a ‘vessel’ for your passion or will.

    I know that I used this description on my website about myself, but it goes beyond me. This is the “channeling” that I’m talking about.  We make our body and aesthetic into a ‘channel’ for the flow of the world to come through; and mastery  or focus is what allows us to build up amazing sports/music skills.  When we lose sight of the mastery and will aspect then it becomes addiction (drag racing, drugs, video games, sex etc), crime, and rule-breaking out of ‘boredom’ or – I would prefer to phrase it — “unboring” ourselves 😀 needing to create a challenge and something to push against, to get that feeling of will & volition. But if there’s no long-term, astiduous focused mastery and chasing real goals, then it gets converted to moment to moment addiction.

    So if it were up to me (which it isn’t! it’s just a suggestion!) — I would put some of the boredom and “drag racing” stuff down here, in the addiction section. And on the higher sections, if it were up to me, I’d explain that this vitality and volition and flow, is a reason why Se users often seek virtuosity and mastering some skill, so they can channel this flow. These skills could be sports, music, dance, arts, or even something like computer programming or practicing law 😛 but either way it’s a channel for all this energy, which allows focus over time to build mastery.  This is the kind of thing that allows channeling of force & energy that you see in so many Pe users who are masters of something. (Take Einstein for instance).  For Se , these masteries are more often in the physical embodied realm.

    (notice this is not about me. I am not suggesting you put WRITING on the list, even though I’ve done this all my life.)

    It’s about channeling energy toward mastery , and applying will to things, so that addiction doesn’t consume us. Putting that ‘addiction’ toward something long term. As you so astutely mention, when things become “moment to moment ” and hope for the long term is lost, this is when addiction takes over. Drag racing for instance,  without FOCUSED MASTERY-  is a form of addiction.

    More coming..

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I’m gonna comment on the other sections at a later time. Tomorrow or tonight. The last point I made is key and I want to emphasize it, and sum up the thrust of what I see as ‘the problem’ so far, as per my posts thus far.

    • The idea that Se users can automatically ‘copy’ movements by breaking down the components, is treating it more as a Ji function. It also suggests a kind of ‘magic’ in Se users copying movements, which is not necessarily the case. The real reason is….
    • Vitality and Volition is key for Se people – as is Flow and Aesthetic. The description is great for these; but what is left out is how these components lead a Se person to put effort toward mastering something or chasing skills rather than just thrills.
    • If the only “hobbies” listed for Se are ‘drag racing and daring’ then you are basically limiting their ‘skill set’ to a list of addictions. Temporary adrenaline boosts. On top of that, suggesting that they pick up these things magically in the first section, takes away from the tremendous mastery and will that goes into performing daring feats.
    • With this in mind, the addiction section is spot on; but needs to be put in perspective. Right now, the addiction section is really no different from the “vitality and flow” sections. If you take that love for music and mastery, and include that in the vitality & volition sections, then you can see how a focused Se user might manifest through mastery of skills (or other ‘hunts’) that put them ‘in the flow,’ whereas those who lose sight of these willful pursuits, become addicts.

     

    As an aside: The only other major point I brought up was a Beta-bias in the ergonomics and aesthetics section. I’d love to explore this further, but I feel this is a lesser concern than humanizing the rest.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
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