Massive argument on Fakebook about Vultology

[Echidna]

Animal, I am sorry that the culture of our group put you through a hard time and caused you pain. I would like to think that my group has developed a stronger culture since then, although I do not know who you are or when these incidents occurred. There was a period of greater toxicity with one influential member who we eventually removed from the diagnostic team due to a subject confidentiality breach. I think the culture changed a lot after that, although at no point did I think Beta NFs were glorified above Deltas. Quite the opposite in fact. Betas were being presented with the more controversial traits, and some EIEs were upset whenever we typed a famous dictator or madman as this type. Deltas had none of this stigma. Unfortunately, it is the case that Betas, being the world shaking quadra, have both some of the best and worst examples of humanity, while the Deltas tend to be nicer, more well-meaning and rather less influential beyond local connections.
I remember there was this one woman on the group who maintained that Socionics R was emotional in nature, rather than based on more set personal attitudes and relationships. I don't know if this was you or not. I think she did leave after some disruption (disruption was more common then than now) and at least my perception was that she was some kind of Socionics E type who had trouble reconciling her understanding of Fi from Myers Briggs with how we defined R in Socionics and got very dramatic when people disagreed with her.
As for my own type. Gamma Researcher is not a typing that is commonly offered for me. The consensus is overwhelmingly ILE. Certainly, I don't think I value R enough to be an ILI or LIE in the Socionics model. If my micro-expressions suit the NiTe of Vultology more, then so be it.
As for my Enneagram, I have in the past through 7, but I am no expert in Enneagram and am going to talk to an expert on the subject shortly.

[Animal]

@Echidna1000
I am really happy to hear your culture has developed since then. 🙂
I don't agree with the distinctions you make about Betas at all - and the idea that world shaking people are Betas is EXACTLY what I disagree with, and where I believe the problem stems from. For instance, I've always known Hitler was TeNi, and I even argued for that typing on your forum.  But you insist on seeing every world-shaking, intense person - including myself 😉 - as a Beta. I am Erica Xenne, if you recall.
I love many of your other posts, such as political ones. I find them thoughtful, inclusive and open to hearing another side, patient, etc.  You liked one of my posts today on facebook.  I actually have nothing against YOU and have enjoyed many of your opinions and thoughts in general. My problem is that you're leading this whole culture where the meaning of types is convoluted beyond belief, and each inconsistency is answered with a bunch of complicated excuses.  The thing about Betas being the most intense, most world shaking - is the real clincher!  This was my very contention from the minute I arrived - not just the part about intensity, but also the misrepresentation of Fi and Fe.
Fi is focused on their own feelings inside, and finding ways to express it. Fe is focused on making an atmospheric impression. Your forum claimed that Fe is about “expressing your own feelings.”  To me, this is dead wrong.  On top of that, TeNi's and SeFi's are by far the most viscerally intense, rawr types - and TeNi especially is likely to be world shaking. But you guys have Trump as SeTi if I recall?  And Hitler as FeNi or NiFe? Goddd NO! Fe is smooth.  But he fit YOUR Beta NF description, so it had to be the right typing!
There are so many reasons I could see for this circular logic, starting with the refusal to consider ideas that didn't stem from your own system. When I was there, you guys wouldn't even discuss visual typings. I mean it's one thing to say you don't believe it, but shutting out discussion is just one example of the exclusive style of the place. There was a lack of openness to new data, outside systems etc. Which does not strike me as particularly Ne leading, on your part. 😉  Everyone had to do things exactly your way, and discuss the same things using the same basis that you presented them. No other was acceptable.
People on your forum typed me as LSI, EIE and IEI (basically anything in Beta except Se lead which is my actual type) and you typed me as unequivically Beta NF.  You explained that Taylor Swift's lyrics were an example of Fi, and mine were different. (Which is hilarious since she is actually the Beta between us!)  I studied her lyrics along with many of the other people you typed, and I found trends, but you had everything backwards... which obviously lead to me being confused about my own type and many others.
I would have stuck to my guns on my Gamma typing - which I did for many months, and argued it strongly - but I knew that ESI wasn't QUITE it; yet I couldn't think of an alternative.  The ideas going around about Se included "lack of life vision/ lack of creative vision/ no thinking ahead" etc, and I've had a clear vision for my life since I was a child, and followed it.  (Unfortunately, this forum also described Se as a moment-to-moment sporto, something I've argued about a lot. 😀 But here, people actually consider these ideas and put them in perspective with everything else, instead of dismissing them with verbal excuses.) So instead of leaning toward Se, I eventually allowed myself to be persuaded that I was a Beta with strong Ni. The reason this worked is because I use exemplars and look for patterns, and the exemplars whose thought patterns resembled mine, were all being typed as Beta NFs. However, in actuality, most are Gammas or Se lead Betas. So that is what threw me off; the very foundation was off.
I put up videos and long threads about my contention with how you guys defined Fi and Fe.  Unfortunately, I took most, if not all, down - when I left the forum. 🙁  Because I had talked a lot about my own stuff in order to get typed and I didn't want to just leave that there when I wasn't there.
Anyway - mistyping me, or even confusing the living crap out of me, isn't what caused me pain (or rather, anger). It's more that after I made better sense out of the meaning of types (closer to my original conception before I got there), I still had my forum, where swarms of Gammas and Delta absolutely insisted up and down they were Beta NF, because they're so intense, and Jack said so. They would insult people to prove their world-shaking intensity and how Beta it was, until we had to kick many of them out of our forum because their stupid drama was absurd (not world shaking, just annoying). Several of these people however, had typed as Gamma or Delta previously, before WSS. And some have come here, and been typed as PeFi or FiPe. Many were typed exactly, or similar, to the types I suggested to them while they were still on my forum, before they went ballistic to prove their intense Beta Drama Label.
It's not really that it caused me pain in the sense that I'm "personally wounded..." I've been through way too much REAL trauma and intense life experience to be hurt by something on the internet. But I am very protective of my own tribe, and I found the culture was harming other people who have a much weaker sense of identity than I do. Not only that, but the sheer lack of integrity... in grouping all intense people, including famous ones, into Beta... and then saying "oh, but it isn't revered, people get insulted to be compared to dictators."  Having been on typology forums since 2012, it's obvious to me that the majority of people are PROUD to be given the "most intense type" in any system, even if they whine - and they will go out of their way to prove it. That is reality. Many people who come to these forums don't see themselves as "nice, subdued and normal" even if they are. They come here to be labeled with some exciting identity because they don't know who they are.  So it's very insulting to them, to hear someone say "You're a Delta" when the leader of WSS has declared "Betas shake the world; Deltas are just nice." I had to explain I'm not typing them at Delta because they're "boring and nice" but, because their functions work that way... but no matter how hard I tried to break it down for people, using actual functions and descriptions, there was no way to divorce them from the notion that "I'm a world shaking, intense Beta; Deltas are BORING, not like me." These distinctions, between world-shakers and nice people, are cartoonish. This isn't humans you're talking about, let alone groups of 1/4 of all humans.
I know who I am, personally, and I don't need an exciting label to prove anything to myself, but I am very interested in the integrity of the systems, and studying them. Placing myself gives me deeper understanding, a place to check my own biases, and being a visceral and emotional person, I really cannot 'abstract' a system without first knowing my own place in it.  But I really want to understand the systems, as they help with my writing and my world view. So I was here out of a genuine desire to learn truth, not to get an identity. That's why the Beta NF stuff was offputting to me, and I only considered it when I saw parallel exemplars.  I have detailed my own experience there, with the mistyping, to illustrate what happened there - because I don't think it's right for me to call out other people as 'specific examples,' but there are a lot. But me "being hurt" isn't really the problem... it's more that I'm concerned about a larger, widespread problem.
(That said, I am grateful for my experience there, because it really prompted me to learn A LOT in order to argue with you guys, and then learn even more to develop my own independent view. Auburn's just happened to be similar to what I developed with my crew, and took it even further.)
So, to put it simply - when it comes to the meaning of types, you and I are at an impasse, and I tried to breach this on your forum but the place in general was VERY closed off to it. And, although it annoyed me that you guys wouldn't even consider visual typing, that was not the basis of my argument. I actually used other socionics sources, at times, to back up my points. I tried so many angles to explain what I was seeing, but nothing worked. I was so damn relieved to find CT, where they saw these differences the same way I did. It was really simple though. I'll say it again.
Fi is focused on their own feelings inside, and expressing it. Fe is focused on making an atmospheric impression. Your forum claimed that Fe is about "expressing your own feelings" whereas Fi is about "relations," quietly focusing on keeping things stable.  To me, this is dead wrong. I know that Socionics calls Fi "R" - but the interpretations vary, and yours was extreme. So even within the premise of Socionics... there was still more room for Fi to have a soul, but you refused that.
Once I regained my bearings, my sense of things was much closer to the types and meanings that this forum comes up with.  But I'd absolutely LOVE to explore this further, without making it personal at all. If you're up for a thread here, like a debate - hopefully including others too - I'd love it. 🙂
As for you...
You could easily be a 7 too.  7 and 5 have lines to each other and can be mistaken for each other. I misremembered and thought you self-typed as 5. I'll percolate on it, watch some more of your videos at some point and let you know if I have any ideas. 🙂  Many self-proclaimed "experts" in enneagram are also relying on cartoonish stereotypes, so I prefer working it out for myself, but I hope you're happy with whatever type they propose.
As for Gamma NT, it's my hunch -- I would really be curious how you turn out in vultology. I'm willing to be wrong... I've never gotten past the "hunch" phase with your typing. It also could be Alpha NT.  To me the NT is pretty obvious. But you speak hypnotically, rather than Pe "pop! pop!" as far as I can tell. And your organization does not strike me as particularly Ti ish. You strike me as a Je-heavy "articulator" who makes things happen, with a lot to say, always moving forward, comfortable at the helm with everyone following your system exclusively - rather than a revisor.  When revisors lead groups, they correct and nitpick their ideas, and constantly recheck the morality and structure of the group. That's why Auburn enjoys and debates with people in who disagree with his very foundation.
Again I could be very off, I have been before. I also see that you could be an Alpha NT for the mere reason that I - as a Gamma - perceive your argument style as "complicated words upon complicated words upon complicated words." Don't get me wrong, I have no problem following them. But this is just what I see, it's not a bad thing per se.  I will say, you argue well. Very well. The real problem is the circular logic. "My opinion is backed up by my own description and the typings that I assigned to these particular people, based on my system, which is clearly the correct one."  I guess that could be Ti.  I'm not really sure.  And I do perceive some Alphas, especially the NT's, as describing types or people in cartoonish and dehumanizing ways - because their visceral attunement to reality is not as nuanced, but they are more abstract and conceptual.  So, I am very open to you being Alpha NT and I'm really curious how your vultology turns out.

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