Massive argument on Fakebook about Vultology

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  • Forum Bot
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
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    I called this EIE out for her lack of Fe in a Flow State video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDczr-5WrCc She claimed to be ENFJ and whilst watching the video she did a lot of that annoying Rachel Maddow Te crap. So, I pointed it out and they carried it over onto Facebook on the World Socionics Society page (I should have known not to go there). While there, I was intercepted by Jack Oliver Aaron, Damon Grey, and some other B-List YouTube d-bags that are her friends. Remember all these people know each other it is like a leaderless cult. None of them think VI or Vultology is credible and they basically just kicked me around like an empty soda can. I have Te PoLR, so I can’t even help myself in a debate because I have no facts, I have analogies or quick snipes. I really cannot defend myself in an argument because I can’t lean on Ti that way. It got to the point of roasting me. That is just a very stupid thing to do. I know I started the whole thing but I did try to smooth things over and just no one would let up.

    These people are not kind IRL.

    Point is that when this all gets out there you will be met with resistance from the community. The other point is I’d be happy to covertly and overtly do everything I can to harass and confuse these people when the time comes 🙂

     

    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    This actually looks like a possible  opportunity to let more people know about CT ! :))

    I can’t watch videos now…I will after work.

    The only thing that stops some people from seeing CT is right is attachment to some preconceived ideas. But I’m sure they will be convinced sooner or later.

    One of the problems is that you were alone in the argument and probably got overwhelmed by their opinions. Maybe some people could help you, to balance things out. 🙂

    You mentioned something very important, a leaderless cult. One of the essential elements of a cult is actually having a leader, so if they are leaderless, they will be persuaded easier ! 😀

    If you want, come to the discord chat. We can talk there more.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
    Heretic
    Participant
    • Type: FeSi
    • Development: l-ll
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Jester, where is the argument at on facebook?

     

    I’d be more willing to bring CT to those folks (I’ve known a few of them for years), but there are still elements within CT that are not only stumbling blocks, but outright repellents to it being an acceptable hypothesis.

     

    One in particular being, what Auburn has written about “Why MBTI Mistypes Everyone”

    “…A real ESFJ (FeSi) will mistype as an ENFJ (FeNi), and a real ENFJ will mistype as an INFJ (NiFe). ”

    *Real*. That’s entirely unnecessary, and puts CT in an easily avoidable position of not merely having to be reasoned for its own merits, but also having to answer and surpass the typology of MBTI.


    On another note, from what little I’ve seen of your typings/comments you seem to be conflating the neo-jungian systems, or at the very least saying that if someone is a CT type then they cannot be any other type in say, socionics. I don’t know if that’s accurate but I’ve not seen anything from you that convinces me otherwise.

     

     

     

    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Jack and I battled it out on Facebook over CT once. It was epic fun. He admitted he has noticed visual patterns over the years, but still believes choice of words should be the number one priority when typing people. Since myself and others so often disagree with his typings, I must doubt this method. The benefit of CT is group consensus has been far easier to achieve and almost always holds up when later the word choices are observed.

    I’ve been preaching the great CT gospel to the WSS and MemeBTI Facebook crowd for years. They are a very tough crowd, let me tell you, but if you enjoy bloody battles and debates as much as I do it’s ripe with opportunity!

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    yikes! @jay >_<

    Spoiler:

    i wish i had a ready-made solution and way to support CT publicly as of today… without requiring days/weeks of personal guidance or debate, but CT hasn’t been condensed into the right soundbites or talking points, quite yet, that can compete within the rhetorical environment that such arguments often take place in.

    so even though i thoroughly believe CT is the right answer with regards to the whole typology field, and that it will be proven in time, the world of rhetoric and persuasion works at a different pace and with different rules.

    for instance the type of phenomenon CT is, doesn’t conform to purely theoretical acrobatics and arguing for/against the existence of abstracts like PoLR or intertype-relations/duals via rationality alone, but instead is properly understood and measured through data and statistics. so CT is seen as right when a person has canvassed enough to see its overall congruence with real world information and samples — which itself debunks certain core concepts of other models, or verifies the ones put forth by us.

    but it’s unfair to expect such a time investment from a layperson. then again, any college class/course requires a comparable kind of educational investment and nobody expects to be able to do calculus without said time/courses. but the typology community at large doesn’t treat their discipline (?) that formally and most don’t have a standardized typology education, so the rhetorical domain is very flimsy and everyone has slightly different ideas.. and it’s all a mess.

    in time (gimmy a month or two) there will be a lecture series coming out on CT that will show… just how extensive and involved the model is, so that the need to properly study it before commenting on its viability becomes self-evident. but by the same token, the lecture series will provide an avenue to reduce weeks/months of article reading and video watching into hopefully ~8ish hours of videos.

    and puts CT in an easily avoidable position of not merely having to be reasoned for its own merits, but also having to answer and surpass the typology of MBTI.

    Spoiler:

    ..yes, it’s really quite a dilemma. and the point at which CT will be a viable hypothesis for mass acceptance will be when (1) it has a inter-rater reliability above ~95% within an analysis timeframe of under 30 minutes, and (2) a custom dev-level profiler that fits like a better glove than the existing mbti/etc alternatives even with its barnum effect bonus/boost.

    the first point is imperative for model/systemic functioning, but the second is imperative for wide adoption. in theory there’s no reason for the FeSi/FeNi/NiFe to subjectively disapprove of their typing if “what it means” in CT (shown via a profile) actually does describe them down to the letter.

    so if all a person has is 20 minutes of their time to give you, and the only thing you can deliver to them is a profile that takes 10 minutes to read, and which outperforms the ones they previously saw… then they have something worth their next 2 hrs. and if in those next 2 hrs you can show them how you got their psychology right using an objective metric, rather than lucky cold reading, then they might stay to hear your full argument.

    but people are indeed persuaded first by things that are relevant to their lives, and their attention span is proportional to the utility they see something having at first pass.

    this isn’t bad, it’s just human psychology.. and it makes sense really. this is as true for my own (typology-illiterate) sister/mother/brother/uncles as it is for anyone else. so my personal goal is to have CT be something my own family would use and recommend to their friends. things are just a little short of that, atm.

    Point is that when this all gets out there you will be met with resistance from the community.

    edit: yes, and to that end… (@OP) my priority in the coming months is to get inter-rater reliability up to 95%+, to iron out the codex to where that becomes possible and fully checkable by others, and to build the modular profiler that can work at the 1024 resolution.

    i think that will provide the “ammunition” (actually, just the systemic integrity) capable of withstanding the onslaught of criticism which CT will be branching out into. im itching to go public with CT, but these pieces have to be in place first for it to have a shot at working.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    Forum Bot
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
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    @heretic I’m not sure what you mean? I’m not going around typing people. I just get pissed with the fake NFJ’s. It’s easy to find this conversation on World Socionics Society. Embarrassing to me, but I started it.

    Forum Bot
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    @elisaday Hahaha I’m glad you like debates. I wish you were there last night.

    I also had this weird inclination that Jack buys into the CT model, because he won’t dismiss it -and he’s quick to dismiss a lot of things.

    Forum Bot
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
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    @auburn I really believe in your model. Frankly, I think Jung would be proud. Maybe @bera is right that I, in the least, brought attention to it. The great thing about Fe is that even though I looked like a dumbass, I brought out the true asshole in a lot of those YouTubers and people will notice that consciously (sometimes it’s unconsciously) and remember it. Also, @bera I can’t get discord to work for me. I think my devices are too old.

    Scientiam
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @jay, I wish I could have been by your side friend, we could have defended CT together 😆


    @auburn
    This is just what I envisioned, my mind is blowing up 😵. I think you are doing a great job preparing, I am in awe, and I am getting a feel from our own member’s responses for how difficult it’s actually going to be for CT to get adopted widely (other people give preference to different information (as you say, rhetoric and persuasion), and therefore the time to convince people of a paradigm increases exponentially because CT language (both its “NT” and “ST” dialect) works at a different pace than the general/public”logos,” and yet I think that although it would be difficult to convince the whole typology community, it would be far easier to convince the scientific community and through it’s “authority” it would be accepted widely. That is why neuroscience/genetics seems like such a magnetic field for CT, because we can see the objectivity of type in connecting objective grouped expressions ≈ personal psychology, and therefore a concrete objective “type” structure must also exist, especially in our biological structures (because it is scientifically assumed that it is where the possibility of mind/conscious experience resides). This is very exciting🤤.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Jung claimed his model wasn’t finished – and Auburn has taken it to the next level. I also imagine Jung would be proud. He might be even more proud if realism were emphasized in the Se description, given that for him, realism was the foundation of Se. >:D   Sorry, I’m half kidding…

    … point being, there are things we can all nitpick, descriptions that are not quite finished, marketable videos that are as of yet unmade.  But frankly, I feel it’s intellectually dishonest to claim that someone can be NiTe in CT but LSI in socionics and INFP in MBTI.  Jung himself had said your brain wouldn’t function correctly without just one function being dominant. You’d live in an undifferentiated soup. Like after a lobotomy.  So I think the “you can be a different type in each system” schtick comes from a refusal to accept one’s typing – or to reexamine one’s understanding.  It comes from a misunderstanding of what type IS and what lies at its foundation.

    I have talked a lot about how I was bullied into typing as Beta. I argued with them relentlessly for months before actually considering I might be wrong. And, I WASN’T wrong, that’s the funny part!  I was typing as ESI / FiSe , much closer to my real type. I brought up SEE/ SeFi, but I was “too focused on my long term visions and goals, too singular-path minded, too introverted” etc, so nobody was buying it.

    A lot of this happened on Jack’s website. He and everyone else insisted I was SUCH a Beta NF and I couldn’t see myself properly. I was deluded about myself.  They ranted and ranted about how I can’t be a Gamma, I’m such a Beta, and how could I not be Beta NF?  Finally, some guy typed me as LSI (TiSe) and I was extremely skeptical but at least it included Se. What sold me on it for a while was that he kept telling me TiSe was “beta” in energy (which everyone INSISTED I was, even though I kept saying I relate to Gamma) — but seemed very much like a SEE (SeFi). I asked why not just type me as SeFi then? But there was so much over-reasoning, words and concepts that I got mixed up and finally dove into TiSe…. which ultimately lead to a foray into FeNi because I knew I wasn’t a thinker.

    I have been saying since the start that some parts of Auburn’s Se description are fundamentally “wrong” to me – and don’t fit me or many other Se leads, including people here and celebs I’ve posted here to get typed.  I’ve started many arguments about it. However, his typing of me is obviously correct, and Se was already on the table among my close friends, as a likely lead for me before I got here.  @Thanatesque actually suggested it!  And I was still in the process of digesting that when I got here, and SeFi was confirmed.

    I do fit the general idea of Socionics Se, though Auburn gets some things right that Socionics misses (in my opinion… of course, I could be wrong too).   Overall Auburn’s concept of the types, the system as a whole, and the internal workings – makes much more sense to me than any other set of descriptions and concepts I’ve encountered. And that is exactly why I got so intense in arguing about the Se description, because I feel it’s so CLOSE and yet misses something essential.

    So this is just one example of how you can embody a certain type, but the descriptions aren’t compelling to you. That’s why typing by words and descriptions is inadequate. You have to see what type of information you’re putting out, visually and more, and then consider that the descriptions in general are trying to encapsulate a ‘bottom line average’ and may not fit each person perfectly.  Also, no one would fit a “single function description” because our psyche contains other functions too.

    There will rarely be a description that is good enough to type yourself with, though some descriptions are worse than others at showing the meaning.  I feel many of Auburn’s descriptions get to the foundation brilliantly, but Se was lacking.  I thought this even before I knew my type, so this is not about “me” but more so my understanding of the types and my investment in the progress of Auburn’s vision. I know there will be, and have been, others that react like I did to the Se stuff… so I feel that is one thing that eventually needs to be addressed so that the system is palatable. There are others but my own understanding is weaker and I don’t have as many constructive thoughts to offer.

    When Auburn strips the functions down to the basics – and writes shorter blurbs on the quadras – he makes perfect sense. Those short descriptions have just enough information to cover the skeletal foundation of each quadra or type, without adding more stuff on top of it to complicate things and make people say “I don’t relate.” Longer descriptions bring it to life, but they are HARD to write. It’s near impossible to make it narrow enough that people who aren’t Se lead don’t relate to it as much, and yet broad enough that EVERYONE in the world who is Se lead would see themselves in it clearly.  If you have ever tried to write descriptions yourself, you’d see that this is a really tough balance to get right.

    And this is why I stopped arguing with Auburn about Se descriptions and instead started trying to write some myself. (They are still evolving.) I saw that he got the balance perfectly for some types and for the quadras, and I figured in time it would sort itself out. But the important thing is, I got typed correctly REGARDLESS in his system. It didn’t matter if we bicker about words in a description– we all could see the basic foundation that was driving ME, and thus type me.  And that’s why CT is so far ahead of anyone else.  Everyone else is bickering about “I fit this description but not that,” — and typing themselves on this basis alone.  Whether it’s one description or 1000, same deal.  We can argue here about descriptions too, but it doesn’t change our idea of our typing.  Whereas over at Jack’s forum, people could type me as Beta NF because the descriptions say FeNi is the most passionate artistic type and look how on fire I am!  I’d say it’s bs, but every online community is similar to this unless they consider visual typing. When you type based on nothing but words, it’s meaningless, period.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    Forum Bot
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
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    @scientiam Good thinking!

    Forum Bot
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    @animal Sorry you went through so much trouble getting confirmed. I always felt deeply I was Ni-Fe and everyone told me I was INFP because I am a musical and lyrical. So, I understand that bias towards typing. Jack has his good qualities and not so good qualities I’ve found out. There’s a lot of pretentiousness in the community Jack likes to point out but he himself behaves in the same way. Auburn, does not behave like this and tries to help us a long to a understanding of what this all means at it’s essence and clarifies it in a way we can understand and accept.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Jack wrote threads on an old forum claiming he is a Sociopath. Nuff said. 😀

    Of course, sociopaths can have good ideas too. But his system was bonkers.  He had a test that he gave to a school and 75% of people came out as Beta NF.  Instead of double checking his system, he explained this by saying those were the type of people who would attend that school.

    The enneagram system has the same problem. The modern well known teachers have made four into the only ‘human’ type, so everyone relates to it. On the forum where all the teachers hang out, they did a poll asking about people’s type, and 85% of people selected four.

    This shows a flaw in the general understanding.  There’s a similar trend in MBTI where everyone is INXX because those are the only human descriptions.

    And this is why people think they’re Beta NF in Socionics, INXX in MBTI, and something else in CT.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I am not personally impressed by the WSS Facebook group. Mind you, I was never officially typed by their leader, but the group was pressuring both me and @Animal to type as Beta NF. Neither of us are Beta NF in Socionics, even if we consider it to be a separate system. All because we use dramatic speech. It’s nonsensical.

    Lol. I sound bitter. Well… they overtype  the now infamous “Beta NF” and I don’t like it one bit. I left the group soon after because – even though they value WORDS above all – the group is pretty terrible at listening.

    Their typing method is flawed beyond the acceptable margin and CT’s use of VI has spoiled me. The visual component is very instrumental in achieving anything close to an objective standard. Waiving it off is foolish.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Ivory.
    Forum Bot
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    @ivory Amen!

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