Massive argument on Fakebook about Vultology

[Animal]

@GreenCoyote
I also find Socionics brilliant. No theory is beyond scrutiny, and I believe the best theorists are the ones who understand that their work is one step toward the revelation of truth.  If typology is a language which reveals or discusses 'real' phenomenon, then the language is always developing.  The language of archetypes is age old, and the way to understand them is always evolving.  Auburn has written posts indicating that he sees his theory as one step in the evolution of typology - and that's why his work is so REAL.  He doesn't claim that he already has all the answers and there's nothing left to be discovered. He waits for developments to reveal themselves.
Socionics adds a lot of layers that don't need to be there (like some of the Reinin dichotomies) but the basic foundation is amazing. And it WORKS.  As you know already, I (and my close crew) typed people using a synthesis of previous systems, which weighed heavily on Socionics, and most of the types we came up with were identical to what Auburn found. The ones we were uncertain about, which included my own, were basically "YES that's what I thought but something threw me off... THANK YOU for seeing it!"  Like we knew, given the information we already studied, that this was right and we just hadn't seen it yet.  There were only 2 cases so far where I was a bit surprised by Auburn's typing of someone, and in one case Ivory had seen that type and kept bringing it up to me prior, and in the other, I'm still trying to figure out where I went wrong (if I did). There's a third case where I could see TeNi for someone that he types as TeSi. But the most likely case is that I'm wrong and he's right. 😛  But I take it upon myself to really examine this and see what's not lining up.
But yes, there is no reason to throw out socionics. It's more about the typing method I think. Socionics is just another method to interpret a correct typing and gain more from it.  As is MBTI if you look at real theorists like Beebe, and also, Jung's original work. There is a lot of 'crap' in all systems to sift through, but going through all of it and cutting the wheat from the chaff, it creates a bigger understanding. Auburn however, is the only one that came up with a method to type people correctly or very very close.
 

@teatime
The reason people aren't happy with Delta types is because Socionics trashes them, and glorifies Betas. Overall Socionics is biased toward Beta because they lionize Se 'badassery' and they worship Ti 'logic.'  The lack of those makes someone meek etc, in their system. The NiFe descriptions also are not too flattering unless you like being weak and helpless 😀 but in MBTI, NiFe is the most revered type. So people are willing to be seen as weak and helpless if it means they can cling to their glamorous MBTI typing of INFJ - and can fantasize that their dual is the badass lion god, SeTi.

[Nymph]

They do.

[Nymph]

@animal exactly why I DIDN'T want to accept a typing of INFJ. Also, Jack kind of talks down to me like I'm a weak piece of shit because of his and socionics view of IEI. Too be honest, I see him for what he is layers beneath, which is a scared little man, so I guess the feeling is mutual.
They do glorify Beta's and it isn't right that they do that. All quadra's have their place in the balance of things. To think one type is better or smarter than another is really limiting. I feel the key to life is to realize where you are weak and to surround yourself, or reinforce yourself, with people who's strengths compensate for your weaknesses.

[Tea]

I've never encountered someone who disagrees with CT once I present a quick case, because I use what people already intuitively know, and to be fair, because of the people I talk to about it.
I've always dealt with people who don't have a background in typology and are prone to dismissing typology. So there's no Ego risk.
Anyone who loves their own image more than Truth it not worthy of Truth.

[Animal]

Yep, it's a much easier "sell" to people who aren't invested in a type. There are people deeply invested in typology who still are open to being typed differently than their current typing, and over time I've learned to focus on those people. Actually that's why our facebook group Enneatude was so small. If people were there to wank about their trophy typing instead of showing real interest in typology for the 'truth' of it, we kicked them.  Lol, this is our first rule and we stuck by it:

1. Be open to type suggestions and impressions of your type.
Time is the most valuable resource we have and you spend so much of it on enneagram boards. You can't get your time back. So ask yourself why you're here and what's really important to you. Is it important to parade your self-typing and have your ego stroked by your friends cheering about it, or to learn something about your soul?

 
Don't get me wrong, we were very open to argument, protest etc. We didn't assume we were correct either. But it's the idea that someone is willing to discuss suggestions without taking it as an insult.  And sadly this meant we had to be exclusive because most people in the internet typology jungle are quite... RUDE... and not worth wasting time on. 🙁

[Juan E. Sandoval]

It's very difficult to take ego out of typing, indeed!
Both on the side of the typee and the typer. Type can very easily become the very definition of a person's identity, even though I would not recommend it. So the typee has a stake in it.
And the typer has a stake in it too, and wants to retain his status/respect as an authority. And a typer's status/authority has to be defended with bravado and social pressure.. in proportion to how subjective and variable the matter at hand is. Scientists don't have to do that (as much) because the numbers are meant to speak for themselves. But in an environment that allows for reinterpretations and theoretical acrobatics to abound, the naturally selected method of authority-formation becomes charisma and confidence. It's human nature 101!
Anyhow, even CT is subject to these facts of group organization.. and I'm often terrified of it; legitimately. Humans seem to need reliable voices and so one often comes along to fill the gap. It's so easy to fall into that trap, and I feel it viscerally. I'm kinda shocked we haven't yet (or have we?) and that CT's remained subject to fundamental questioning - in all aspects - and that's what ensures it continues to grow.
And I'm starting to feel a lot safer now that we have some rising new vultologists <3, because I'm no saint. Only an in-build theoretical foundation that values data triangulation, cross-checking and a decentralized authority, can be a bulwark against this organic tendency for group-think to crop up and for intelligent groups like ours to fall into myopic loops.
also ty @animal for all your feedback on the Se description! i may have an idea of how to improve it now, which i'd like to share with you later. 🙂

[Paul]

I'm starting to think that Ni plays into Se a great deal more than we realise. It sort of muddies the Se waters with some metaphysical murk.

[Echidna]

I didn't want to give you any impression of talking down to you Court, and that wasn't my intention either. I just think it's important for people to be mindful that some types find some situations more overwhelming than others, and in your case, being asked to substantiate all your points in that debate was an overwhelming experience. I've seen many IEIs struggle with this as it is often a point of pride.
I have already said that I'm sorry I didn't intervene properly and you left the group, although it is disheartening to know you are upset with me personally.

[Echidna]

What you are referring to is a rip-off MBTI test I took from online when I was 17 and went around my secondary school getting everyone to take it. The most common type was by far and away ENFJ. It's likely the test was skewed, although at the time I thought that maybe ENFJ is just the ideal type for this school, and even moreso for the girls' school across the road.
This has nothing to do with Beta NF.  It was from a time before I got into Socionics.
What's more, I don't think we have a Beta NF bias. If anything, the Beta NFs keep on telling us to stop typing crazy dictators as Beta NFs, which can be hard to stop doing. A lot of the really nice people end up Deltas instead.
I used to think I might be a psychopath when younger (never a sociopath), now I think I might be one of those 'secret' schizoids. Either way, the conscience part of me kicked in once I had reasoned through conventional morality in my own terms. I found the tenets of morality hard to accept at first.

[Nymph]

@echidna Jesus Christ, Jack you're fucking everywhere these days.
In all fairness, Jack did reach out to me and apologize multiple times by email guys. Also, he did apologize in Facebook messenger after he saw I left WSS group.
You are right, Jack, that it did hit me in my pride. Frankly, what happened made me aware of an inner child wound. So, after all the anger came this revelation and that's why I just left Facebook in general. It does show in a way how Ti is like a child for IEI or Ni-Fe or INFJ, etc. I wasn't happy how it was handled in the group but I'm over it now and I think we are back to being on better terms.
 

[Nymph]

@auburn What is it with alpha's not being able to provide for any sort of security? This is a private group thread.
The no one gets in except through visual typing first seems like a pretty good security measure.
 

[Nymph]

@echidna @auburn You are both treasure troves of information even though your thinking is different. Take this opportunity when/if you two do an interview to synthesize these disparate theories and improve upon your own.

[Bera]

@echidna - I'm sorry for saying anything that was connected to you or your FB group.
I know nothing about the group. I just read the conversation here and responded to what was said. And now I feel bad about it because I obviously expressed opinions about people I don't even know and this is wrong.
I am happy you are here and I'm curious what type you have in CT (so it would be really awesome if you got typed here 🙂 )
 

[Nymph]

@bera that Fi 🙂

[Bera]

The feely feelz Fi, the seelieness :))
Also the 9 :))

[Echidna]

I am glad of it!

[Nymph]

@echidna Jack, we would have taken all of this old news down if we knew you were coming. Generally, people here are pretty accepting. Thing is I don't know what has gone on in discord because I left that a few days ago. I hope they were not too hard on you when they learned who you were.
This was supposed to be a private forum but this goes to show that really we should all be aware of what we write and leave on these walls. I am sorry as well for the things I wrote. I wrote them whilst angry and before we had a chance to come to more of an understanding and get on better terms.
Frankly, I am still angry with Flowstate and that ESTJ girl pretending to be an ENFJ. I think I was angry before and directed a lot of it at you because it became a WSS deal and the beta in me expects you to lead that. Just as in CT I think the beta's expect @auburn to make an appearance from time to time because this is essentially his kingdom, his creation, and his responsibility. This is one  distinction socionics makes about Beta Quadra I think is spot on.
 

[Nymph]

@bera I have some 9 in me but it is subdued. I'm 6w5 8w9 3w2. So you can tell there's this "I want to be safe, secure, and alone", no "I want to fight and argue", no but really "I want to help and give you balloons and candy." All wrapped in one, it is conflicting as all Hell.

[Bera]

I thought about it yesterday. For me this is a huge issue. I am a gossip loving person. I think this is already obvious to everyone who knows me. ?
I think the rule we should generally follow or at least the rule I want to apply myself  from now on is - if you would not make a claim about someone in front of him, don't make it at all.
Of course, no rule is perfect in all situations, it's important to be adaptable, but at least it's a place to start from.
So, leaving apart the fact Jack is here and wasn't typed, which is Auburn's decision and responsibility, we should not have talked like this about someone who was not here, which is our decision and responsibility. 🙂
I was typed 2w1 5w6 9w8.
About the mood changes, I totally get it, sometimes I feel the same way. Sometimes I become extremely angry and I just want to destroy everything around me, burn it all down. I don't know much about Enneagram and about deeper motivations of other people, so in your case the motives can be different, but in my case what causes it is a rejection mechanism, so I feel rejected and after that I become angry and it's sort of a nihilistic anger, it has some despair mixed in, nothing is of any value and in the end everything can just go to hell. ...But I have a baseline cheerful attitude, so if someone catches the switch from one state to the other, it can be really funny to watch the oscillation, I guess.
I thought this is also a seelie - unseelie oscillation and maybe in your case it's an adaptive-directive oscillation?
Anyway I wanted to provide some advice, I think, but basically I have no idea how to stop this rejection-anger pattern and usually I only manage to focus on not murdering anyone...? So, just letting you know you are not alone.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

@jay - oh man, seems I could have been more graceful here. Although this thread was public from the first post (i.e. visible to guests of the forum) and Echidna could have purchased an ebook/typing at any point, and that would also auto-generate an account to post with, even before the typing. Access to this forum happens upon purchase.
That said, I agree with this being the core of it...

we should not have talked like this about someone who was not here, which is our decision and responsibility.

But it's also cathartic to talk it out now, even if a little uncomfortable. I'm glad apologies are being shared both ways. Echidna did not strike me as a foul person from the videos I watched on his channel, and I made a general character judgment on his capacity to offer CT a healthy contrast, a new perspective to mull over, and possibly even friendship.
Seeing his discussion with Ben about Model A vs G inspired me to engage in discourse because I noticed that his skepticism is usually about feeling an argument has insufficient reason/support, rather than on unfair attachment to ideas. I tend to trust my sense of when a person is coming from an intellectually honest place, and Jack feels intellectually honest to me.
His criticisms of CT also seem healthy to me, and appropriate for anyone who's yet to be given certain answers. Anyhow, I think his intent will evidence itself in the end, and this all may have been a misunderstanding from a bad first impression.
Still, Jay, I'm sorry for the lack of privacy. Presently this forum is not really "private" except for the board here, but maybe we can discuss adding such an area to the forum.

[Nymph]

@auburn I agree in most respects.

@bera I'm going to learn more about tritype and get back to you on this because I always thought it was interesting to incorporate that into how our functions seem to play with each other. I think you are on to something with a unseelie/seelie or adaptive/directive oscillation in moods. It may not be related to Enneagram though.

@auburn @echidna One thing no model has ever done is try to explain how trauma effects personality. Yet, everyone in the mental health community agrees trauma which can lead to PTSD-CPTSD BPD etc. alters the personality, because you do not develop a stable sense of self. It collapses your belief system in on itself and you lose a grip on your identity.  There is an overarching and controlling aspect that Shadow has where it feels like an ego hijacking. It gets so convoluted, it almost feels like the ego is doing the projecting and the shadow is doing the persona. I have a lot of ideas but I have only been into this for a few years. Prior to that, I was looking everywhere else unsuccessfully. What attracted me to the typology community was this flickering light in the darkness. I had been told the answer isn't here, but I disagree, it is here because it is no where else.
I'm not sure if you, Jack, or anyone else has any ideas?

@rondo @scientiam this might interest you.
 

[Animal]

@Auburn

also ty @animal for all your feedback on the Se description! i may have an idea of how to improve it now, which i’d like to share with you later.

Purr! Awesome 🙂 I'm really glad if it helped and I'm very excited to see this!

@Echidna1000 -
Understood, I thought I remembered that test turning up a lot of results for EIE not Beta NF, but then I thought I might be remembering wrong so I decided to be more general (Beta NF rather than EIE specifically).  However I didn't realize this was before you got into Socionics.
Hope you get typed, I'd be really curious to know what type you are in CT.
__
Also I'll mention there was no backtalking for me. All the stuff I said here, I've said on Jack's forum. I left in a pretty dramatic huff about EIE being overtyped, and when I came back a while later, they had all written under my post that I was just a disgruntled EIE, which made me crack up. I also put up videos of myself critiquing this and addressing points, which were mostly ignored by the "main crew," though some smart dissenters loved them.  So nothing I've said here is backtalking. It's all public knowledge and stuff that I've made quite a stink about.  😀 . Just saying. I have nothing to hide.

[Animal]

Jack - I'm going to throw in my guess that you're NiTe or something similar. I could be wrong of course. I could also be biased since I suspected you were Gamma NT since I was on your forum, even before I learned vultology; but I didn't feel educated enough yet to make a case or to bring it up.  I just checked some videos and the vultology SEEMS to match my hunch.  I also think you typed yourself as 5w6 enneagram, right? I'd agree with that.  This is just my guess though! Not worth nearly as much as a reading from an actual vultologist 🙂
Also about the psychopath/sociopath thing, I get it. When I was going through rough times and felt out of touch with my heart, I've wondered about it too. It happens to the best of us.  So, I take it back. My contention isn't with your character, but with the fact that I was typing ALMOST correctly as FiSe, and then your forum was so forceful and persuasive that eventually after much arguing and downright bullying, I reluctantly looked into Beta, even though in my heart I knew it was wrong. My entire knowledge base was turned upside down and not in a good way. Things were just confusing, and with a chronic illness on top of Ti polr, it messed with my entire conception of type. Of course, that's my fault, and I don't blame anyone but me, for falling for it. However, I just wanted to get to the truth.  This same issue happened to MANY OTHER people there, who previously typed as Gamma or Delta, but then moved to Beta because your forum ascribed Fi absolutely no feelings and no personality.  There was so much focus on "Beta drama" and every person with heart or a soul was told (or bullied) to type at Beta.  Some of these people later were typed as Deltas or Gammas here, and put up fights or acted rude because of prejudices that your forum put forth. I see it as a toxic environment, but it could be that you're a 5 focused on information and you got in over your head. It might not be that you're particularly psychopathic, but just unaware of how toxic this is, and for how many people, and the backlash that it has caused across many other forums as well. As a leader of another forum, I had to deal with this backlash among angry members who would insult each other and cause ridiculous drama just to keep their Beta NF card. So this was a much bigger problem than "my mistype," which I can just as easily blame myself for. It's the environment at large and how it is run, and the misinformation being spread, with "cool types" vs. "uncool types," and people clamoring to push their friends and themselves to the "top of the pile" - which was unequivocally Beta NF.
Thankfully, I left that forum and figured out much about socionics on my own, which lead me to come up with my own typings - with input and feedback from a smart group of friends. We started developing our own system for how to type people, and when I found CT, Auburn had noticed very similar trends in physical appearance and attitude, but took it to another level, and typed most of us the same way we had typed ourselves. So, I was thankful to be able to drop this project and to come here where the environment was welcoming and the methods were genuine.  I hope there can be some peace and reconciliation between WSS and CT, because the field at large would improve if these gaps could be bridged.

[Echidna]

Jay, you're good with me. I appreciate you were angry and I understand from our private conversation why you would feel the need to get things off your chest on here. I'm just glad I could come on here and we could talk about it with transparency.
What I would say though is that Kat is almost certainly an EIE in the Socionics. If you are going to identify Te in her microexpressions, that is your right to do in analysing her to the best of your ability in a different system. As far as my own understanding of Model A is concerned, she is a strong fit for the EIE and certainly not the LSE. I would be happy to discuss that further, provided she would be comfortable with me doing so.
As for other comments on here, I'm not upset, although I thought it would be helpful for both you and myself to correct a few misconceptions about what I have done and said in the past.

[Echidna]

If I were to venture a guess, Jay, and it is only a guess as I am no psychiatrist or clinical psychologist, I would imagine how someone processes trauma may vary depending on the type. It seems intuitive to me to say that it hits the weaker, but more valued functions. In a Beta NF, this would be a loss of that feeling of certainty about oneself and one's identity.

[Author]

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