FiNe & the MBTI

Index Forums Cognitive Functions FiNe & the MBTI

  • Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    As a sister thread to this one, I wish to also make note of another typing pattern that has made itself evident. A fair few of our FiNe members ( @aux , @pine , @laelrice , @elisaday ) and popular FiNe typologists bloggers such as Kailia & Molly all have identified as INFJ at some point.

    Given how these two types share no functions in common, it’s a bit more difficult to work out what is happening. But I will attempt to give my take on this trend, covering it through a few points:

    • 1) Jness – What leads each FiNe to adopt the title of INFJ is different. But if the matter relies heavily on the J dimension (i.e. “am I P or J”) then it is easy to see why a J-lead like the FiNe might identify as an MBTI J type. As mentioned in the Ne ll– thread, Ji-lead types are rigid and in some sense immovable. They seek closure, and these aspects are often framed as “J” aspects in the MBTI, but in the MBTI J translates over to CT’s Conductor category. This is not the case for the FiNe type, as they will often be “J” but not a Conductor type by any means. However, confusion over Jness alone doesn’t explain some cases where more elaborate insights into functions have been developed. For that we need to go into the definitions used for the functions themselves.
    • 2) Fe & Agreeableness – The second facet to this dilemma lies in the MBTI’s descriptions of Fe vs Fi. In general, Fe is seen as the one of the two that is considerate of the emotions of others, attuned to their sensitivities and respondent to them. Fi is seen as “self” emotions, and thus selfish or removed from others, which is not the right way to frame Fi and is misleading. Fe is also considered agreeable, swayed by the environment and adaptive to it. However, we have found that these are all features of light “F.” Seelie Fi will be permeable, and thus receptive to the environment’s energy, will be considerate of their impact on others and will wish to harmonize with others. These all exist independent of an ongoing, transactional relationship with the larger social economy, as defined in the Fe profile. In addition, NiFe are said to be good at this harmonizing but are soon overwhelmed by their Fe agreeableness because although they can do it, it’s auxiliary to an introverted function. But this isn’t actually how NiFe’s modulate Fe, as real NiFe wield Fe in a yang/forward conductor fashion without much strain. Instead this is a description of Fi’s trait of overwhelm. So the right (FiNe) behavior is being observed, but it’s explained very differently.
    • 3) Ji+Ne vs Ni – The third facet to this dilemma lies in the explanation given for Ni as a function. This also relates to how Ne and Ni are compared and contrasted.
      • Misunderstanding of Ne: First, Ne is not viewed as it should be within the MBTI. We’ve found Ne to be much more conceptual than tangible. For example, Ne on its own can lead to social introversion due to its daydreaming, lack of attention, and removal from the literal. It is not always a mad-scientist function, nor does it always manifest in explicit experimentation with duct tape and beakers. Being lost in thought and chasing idea-trails is another form of Ne engagement. Some descriptions might wrongly paint this type of thinking as Ni, because it’s introverted+intuition. If a person is “intuiting” and it’s not coming across as explicit brainstorming, the false assumption is that it is Ni. I think this accounts for maybe 1/3 of the confusion we see regarding Ni.
      • Aha Moments: The second third of the confusion comes from the way Ni is described; namely as a function of inner intuitions, hunches, and insights that germinate from within first and congeal suddenly into revelations. This is simply not the case for Ni and is not how it operates in reality. What we’ve seen instead is that Ni (proper) doesn’t have epiphanies or “aha moments” and that is more of an Ne quality; these sudden bursts of synthesis.
        This is why one of Ni’s signals is “unimpressed” eyes. Ni doesn’t experience surprise or “oh wow!” moments because the things Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life– all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something simply needs to be looked up. Hence, for Ni the sensation of intuition is more like “of course” or “obviously” than it is surprise. And this is why Ni is fatalistic when at its extreme, because of its voluminous archive.
      • Ni is not viewed as Pi: The last 1/3 of this is the lack of depiction of Ni as a Pi process. This has many features to it but as they’re listed here as: Global Narratives, Philosophy & Counsel, Steadiness & Temperance, Probabilities & Predictions. In addition to this, Pi is described as being composed of the qualities: Aim: Predictability, Method: Narrative, Duration: Long, Observation: Episodic, Data Source: Precedent, Verb: Anticipate, Desire: Stability, Fear: Instability.
        These qualities are what make Ni a Conductor function, and tilted towards being conservative, wary, superstitious and pessimistic. From what I have seen, most definitions of Ni are not like this but instead Ni is treated (again) more like the net result of introversion+intuition, without framing it under Pi.
        Now, some sources will say that Ni does track time, which is true, and seeks for longstanding rather than real-time intuitions. These are sorta true but the problem is that those isolated features can be achieved from Ji + Ne as well. Since Ji seeks a consistency of framework, and because of how Ne underneath Ji is not bubbly and scattered, then a JiNe’s use of Ne will seem more honed to uncover longstanding (Ji) truths.
        But this cultivation of longstanding views (via Ji) is not the same as the narrativism of Pi. And this is something hard to explain unless you’ve seen the narrativism of Pi in action. The narrativism of Pi is not just a wider opinion, it’s an exhaustive elaboration of the interplay between layers and layers, in an information spideweb. Listening to an Ni-lead speak is hypnotic because they can soothe you to sleep as they flip the pages of their inner book, much like an Si-lead. This is different than having Ji+Ne form a longstanding truth framework, where intuitions are consolidated into ‘conclusions’ about the future.

    Given all of this, the way the INFJ type is presented –even in terms of its information processing– is not very descriptive of the Beta Conductor we call NiFe. Instead the INFJ is portrayed as what I might call a hodgepodge of qualities. There’s a little bit of Ji, auxiliary Ne, but also some Je, and maybe a little truth of Ni — and a great deal of general “NF” and “INF” temperament behavior.

    The FiNe, being INF by temperament, may come to identify with “Fe” through seelie Fi, and “Ni” through auxiliary Ne when combined with Ji’s longstanding-framework-construction. And some of what I mention in this thread may also apply to other types who mistake for INFJ.

    I hope this can help clarify the matter for some of our existing and future members. The reason why some FiNe type as INFJ is not as straightforward as the typing of NeFi/NeTi as INTP/INFP, but perhaps this can open a discussion on what the full list of features involved might be. I especially look forward to hearing thoughts from our FiNe members.

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    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    In short, I think real FiNe find the INFP description too whimsical, fantastical and poetic. They see themselves as much more serious, judgmental, but also affected by other’s emotions in a way that INFP profiles don’t describe. And their intuitive insights appear to them as being longstanding conclusions rather than real-time brainstorming.

    And, in a kind of musical chairs escapade, real NeFi’s find themselves fitting the INFP profile because they actually are whimsical and fantastical in the way it’s described, while being introverted yet living in an open-ended/exploratory fashion the way “P” types are described.

    This is a very crude summary, but I think it comes close enough to capturing the broad strokes of what we’re seeing among Delta NF’s…

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
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    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    The second third of the confusion comes from the way Ni is described; namely as a function of inner intuitions, hunches, and insights that germinate from within first and congeal suddenly into revelations. This is simply not the case for Ni and is not how it operates in reality. What we’ve seen instead is that Ni (proper) doesn’t have epiphanies or “aha moments” and that is more of an Ne quality; these sudden bursts of synthesis.
    This is why one of Ni’s signals is “unimpressed” eyes. Ni doesn’t experience surprise or “oh wow!” moments because the things Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life– all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something needs to be looked up. Hence, for Ni the sensation of intuition is more like “of course” or “obviously” than it is surprise. And this is why Ni is fatalistic when at its extreme, because of its voluminous archive.

    Ooooh, far out! This is one of the big reasons I used to self type as an Ni lead long ago. Why does mbti describe Ni like that?

    In short, I think real FiNe find the INFP description too whimsical, fantastical and poetic. They see themselves as much more serious, judgmental, but also affected by other’s emotions in a way that INFP profiles don’t describe. And their intuitive insights appear to them as being longstanding conclusions rather than real-time brainstorming.

    And, in a kind of musical chairs escapade, real NeFi’s find themselves fitting the INFP profile because they actually are whimsical and fantastical in the way it’s described, while being introverted yet living in an open-ended/exploratory fashion the way “P” type are described.

    Ever the outlier, I’m an NeFi who typed as INxJ.  My youngest sister is an FiNe who types as INFP, entirely embracing the whimsical description. ;p I blame my self-typing on my Te, not sure how to explain my sister’s type.

    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    In the MBTI system, I wavered at some point between INFJ and INFP, but primarily between INTP and INTJ. Ultimately, I settled (unsatisfactorily) on INTP. I thought I could be a F-type mainly because the emotional detachment of the INTP bothered me, and I considered myself potentially being a J-type because P-types’ lack of rigidity didn’t feel completely right. The slight divergence from the pattern you’re noticing (my orientation towards T-types) is probably due to the “unseelie” factor (that still needs to be properly defined btw), as you wrote it somewhere else, on the old forum (if i remember correctly).

    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    1) Jness – Nah, it wasn’t this for me. Back about 15 years ago when I only knew about dichotomies I had always typed myself as a P type. After learning about Socionics I understood functions and Ni as a Pi type. They are described as more go-with-the-flow while the Ji types are more rigid. Since I’ve always been viewed and described as an easy going, go-with-the-flow type of person who suppresses her own judgments I switched over to Pi lead. This was supported when studying Jung and later on finding this system as well. In other words: I’m not dumb 😛

    2) Fe & Agreeableness – I agree that many Fe descriptions in MBTI sound like Big 5 agreeableness, but I wasn’t going by those descriptions. My Big 5 agreeableness scores actually tend to be quite low and I’ve never viewed Fe as caring about others and Fi as selfish.

    Jung’s definitions hold the most weight for me. @Auburn told me that Jung just didn’t understand Fe or Fi very well and I didn’t find that argument to be very convincing. Jung’s Fe isn’t directive at all. Jung’s Fe types are easily swayed by the ethical opinions of others and can come across as having multiple personalities due to their ever-changing ethical conclusions. Fi is expressionless and cold.

    Personally I’m not all that great at harmonizing. I’m pretty combative and argumentative, but my opinions on ethical matters change drastically and quite often.

    3) Ji+Ne vs Ni – I agree with your first point as I know many Ne dominants who think they are Ni dominants including my sister.

    On the second point: Most people I know in the typology community associate aha moments with Ne. It’s funny when this happens, too, and you can see the aha happening with them in the moment. This isn’t something I tend to experience personally. Typically when someone is sharing their big, exciting A-Ha realization with me I tend to finish their sentence in a “yeah I know” type of way that always takes the wind out of their sails.

    “Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life– all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something simply needs to be looked up.”

    Yes, it’s called web-thinking and it’s how I’ve always described my mental process. It is why I never have to take notes on anything.

    Ni is not viewed as Pi: Pretty much every other source I’ve come across acknowledges Ni as Pi, so I’m not sure which sources you are referring to. Other than that I can see the first point being valid for some people. Still I have to wonder because when I worked for customer service at call centers thousands of customers told me that my speaking was hypnotic and I was putting them to sleep. My first attempt at my typing video was 10 minutes of rambling just to answer the first question about A.I. by going into an exhaustive narrative involving the history of human innovations and psychological discovery to outline my conclusion that it has all been leading up to my prediction of the final outcome that A.I. represents hope for humanity. I ended up sending a different video instead with just a summary of that rambling, but the summary ended up coming out as rambling as well. I was self-conscious about forgetting a lot of names and dates, but Beebe calls that a symptom of “Demon Si” in Ni dominants.

    There’s a part in your Ni description that states Ni can emphasize hope. It’s also a big part of Socionics’ Ni+ description which is the Ni of the NiF+. Hope is one of my most overused vocabulary words.

    “These qualities are what make Ni a Conductor function, and tilted towards being conservative, wary, superstitious and pessimistic.”

    From what I have read most descriptions of Ni actually are like that. It’s especially true of Ni- in Socionics which is the Ni of the NiT-.

    Now, putting all other systems aside and just looking at Cognitive Types as its own isolated system with its own set of unique types I’m STILL not seeing FiNe in me.

    Psychologically I’m having trouble seeing how you came to the conclusion of my Fi in my videos when I make jokes and hyperbole when speaking about my relationships, but then turn around and speak very seriously about my choices leading to a total metamorphosis.

    Vultology-wise I’m really having trouble seeing the Fi. I see zygomatic tension and flat cheeks. My smile looks nothing like Marilyn Monroe’s or Princess Diana’s. It looks just like Kate Beckinsale’s and Cate Blanchett’s. My upper lip has a pronounced Cupid’s bow naturally when resting that makes it look like it is pulled more upwards than straight across, but that is not due to any muscular tension at the nose.

    My movements still look to me to be more similar to NiFe III- than the FiNe II- -. @Auburn even said he could see how my movements were similar to theirs, but he could see some differences that he just want able to explain. Personality-wise I see far more similarities between myself and the NiFe types as well. The FiNe types go on and on about personal growth and existentialism and I almost never talk about those subjects. Even with the art I do I make it a point to depersonalize them from myself and focus on universal topics of interest.

    So while at first I was excited about being typed FiNe and being compared to the many I admire and really giving it serious consideration, it’s still just not making any sense to me. It’s not because I haven’t done my research and have a false understanding of the functions. There’s still a very good chance, in my opinion, that I am actually mistyped in this system. I’m willing to admit I’m wrong if I can receive better explanations than “Jung doesn’t understand the functions” and “I can’t explain the differences.” It’s also a challenge that I’m going through such lengths to keep my identity protected on this forum, I know, so I’m not expecting much more explanation on my vultology anytime soon.

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Well this is utterly baffling.

    Also, I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply dumbness on the part of anyone, but hoping to outline common misconceptions that might be the cause. But from what you’re saying, these don’t really apply to your situation.

    I’m open to the possibility that there is a misread but it would have to be a really really weird misread, since NiFe to FiNe is not a small leap. I’m not really sure how much more I could say without more information/data. But I understand it takes effort to make new videos, and trust to share them, so all I can say is I’ll do what I can to expand the reservoir of NiFe female samples.

    You certainly don’t look like the male NiFe’s but that’s to be expected. We only have one NiFe lll- female (Carolyn) and her vultology itself is on the very outskirts of NiFe, due to J-heaviness.

    I’m willing to admit I’m wrong if I can receive better explanations than “Jung doesn’t understand the functions” and “I can’t explain the differences.”

    Yea, I know. I like to admit when I don’t know — although I realize that’s not a persuasive argument. It’s not really meant to be. I think the data should speak for itself, but there’s a gap in data present. But once more female NiFe samples accumulate, I may have a more complete understanding to offer.

    Thank you for being willing to discuss the matter openly.

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    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @faeruss @supahprotist @elisaday – now I have three members vying for the NiFe role. It’s a hotly contended type. But you can’t all be right!


    @gust
    help! be my referee!

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    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @elisaday – but at some point you said you felt you could be a Ti lead. I hope I got that right. I can’t remember the thread where you said it.

    Now, to be clear, I did not see her videos but since :

    – NiFe is far from FiNe but TiNe is pretty close;

    – she said she identifies with Ti description;

    – she says people told her her voice is soothing and calming;

    – her video was about AI development

    I see (completely as a leap based on almost 0 facts) she might be TiNe. Why NiFe and not TiNe? Why not TiNe I–I ?

    Again, please take this as an uninformed idea based on just 2 or 3 posts I saw from her and interactions with people here. It’s an Pe what if thought.

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    Faeruss
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @elisaday

    If I recall correctly you were typed originally as a FiSe, so I suggest considering TiSe as a real possibility. The degree of similarity between the introverted and extroverted types of the same quadra has been woefully underestimated, especially now with the advent of the development levels. Then at least you would have all the right functions you think you have from your understanding of them and your own introspection. If I am a TiSe as well, I will tell you that is possible for us to look very similar in thought and mannerism to NiFes, and vice-versa.

     

    Feel free to reply to me in PM if you are uncomfortable sharing personal details, but I would be happy to help you out.

    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Yes, it’s called web-thinking and it’s how I’ve always described my mental process. It is why I never have to take notes on anything.

    Is this Ni? I don’t take notes either (I have ADHD) but if I’m interested, believe me: I will remember everything. If I’m not interested, no amount of note taking will help. I sat through all my grad classes without taking notes. I read either beforehand (when required) or during assignments and prep for exams. I just used the text books then.

    I don’t take notes– I’m like a hawk tracking prey when attentive and can’t break it to jot things down, or I draw squiggles, cartoons, and other meaningless things when I can’t follow and the lecture is too long. I have never had trouble recalling or understanding what I paid attention to. Best strategy is to fill my days with ‘lectures’ on things I really do want to know. Anyway, I digress!

    Just wanted to say I’m not sure this is an Ni thing.

    This is why I’ve wondered about my own Si too, in fact: I have plenty Si things I do quite easily and naturally and positively (I don’t have a negative/repressed relationship with Si like I have with Te) but no Senex energy at all and wish we could separate cognition from energetics.

    I really do think you can have very good, positive, efficient use of a cognitive function that you have not integrated into your energetics, so that in that case, it’s more like an appendage or tool than “who I am”. It’ll then confuse you when reading type descriptions. And I think good ‘cognitive’ access to Si in a strong Ne type who is a voracious reader or accumulator of information can feel like ‘web thinking’. But you will not have the overall Senex energy or talents like caution or calm if it’s not been integrated into your energy as a full expression/manifestation/channel of the energy. Just my usual Ne hypotheses.

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    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @faeruss my original type was FiNe. I have Se taughtness around the eye area and Se arched eyebrows. However, Auburn said he saw Ne brushstroke toggling (just subtle and barely) and foggy, intuitive eyes that don’t appear to be looking at anything. I explained that I have chronic dry eye (to explain the excessive blinking), so Auburn dismissed all of the intuitive signals because of that. However, after awhile I decided aux Ne is definitely far more accurate than having aux Se. I’m certainly no hunter.


    @bera
    Yes, I relate far more to the Ti description than the Fi description. Not necessarily Ti lead. I think that description was meant for all Ti users.

    I ralate to Ni over Ne, Fe over Fi (Fe is the description in this system I relate to most), Ti over Te (can’t relate to Te at all), and Se over Si.

    ”Now I have three members vying for the NiFe role…but you can’t all be right.”

    hmm yeah another poor argument that doesn’t make much sense.

    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    ”Now I have three members vying for the NiFe role…but you can’t all be right.”

    hmm yeah another poor argument that doesn’t make much sense.

    Lol. I’m sure this was just a joke.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @elisaday

    I grew up with a NiFe father and FeNi best friend and I have to say, no matter what you say about yourself, you behave absolutely nothing like this type.

    Without seeing a video, I would bet money that your type is not NiFe. It is blatantly obvious from where I stand.

    First of all, NiFe doesnt spend long posts saying “I relate to this but not that.”  Pi is a more detached, world view function. Jung talks about this detachment too, in his writing about Ni. It is emphasized that the perspective of Ni is more alien and distant, panoramic view from afar. Not “I relate” and “I don’t relate.”

    I understand the need to bring this up in order to figure out your type, but for instance, @faeruss is Ni and Fe conscious, and may end up being NiFe. If not, at the very least he has these functions conscious. When talking to him, he goes about this in a much more detached, analytical way, collecting info from a distant perspective and reiterating it from way out there. Your posts, by contrast, are more personal, visceral. I can practically taste your frustration, sarcasm and annoyance.

    This isnt a criticism. I love tasting emotion. I am highly personal and visceral and self referencing myself.

    But your personal interaction style is just too… subjectively based.

    Always going back to your personal relation with things as a subject. This is part of why Socionics calls Fi “relations.”

    Confusion over FiNe and FiSe is one thing, but someone like you ending up as Ni… I personally wil be mindblown if this happens. It simply doesnt fit the pattern of what Jung, Socionics, and CT describes for Ni at all.

    I mean where do you see distant panoramic world view in yourself? Or aphoristic speech? Can you pick out one example from your past fifteen posts? Or any on this forum?

    Also where is Fe emotional shepharding? Where’s the warm persuasive quality of Fe?  Compare the tone of your posts to Faeruss. You have yet to say to someone “let me help you figure that out.” This is the mentoring stance of NiFe, regardless of their prior expertise around the subject at hand. They take a counseling approach.

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    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @elisaday,

    This youtube video by Carolyn who is Ni dominant showed me that my Ni wasn’t my primary function in my psyche and that Vultology did have some level of accuracy in its readings. In the video, Carolyn describes her first-hand experience with Ni and tries to give “practical” examples of how it works for her in her psyche. It might help you determine whether you are NiFe too since she is typed by CT as one and she identifies as an INFJ.

    I found it hard to post the video, it didn’t work, so this is the link to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Yi5hIAPLA&t=1111s

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    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @scientam Thank you for the input. I’m actually quite familiar with her videos and many of the things she experiences have been how it is for me as well. She talks about feeling like she doesn’t have a body: that she’s just a floating ball of energy. That’s how I’ve described it to people as well.

    It’s her vultology that I think matches mine the most out of all of the other exemplars. When I play the videos side by side it seems almost exactly the same to me. The only differences I would comment on may have something to do with her being directive as I think I would be more adaptive. Auburn said the similarities were compelling, but he saw a difference and couldn’t explain what they were.


    @animal
    Thanks for your input as well. I appreciate you actually giving reasoning behind your perceptions. I have a LOT to say in response since you asked me to gather evidence, and I can certainly do that. It will have to wait until later tonight though.

    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @elisaday – I think your dry eye problem could make your typing more difficult.

    The Ti description is meant for all Ti users but you don’t look like a conductor or like a Pe lead and I did some research of your previous posts and saw that you mentioned many, many times how you don’t resonate with Fi at all and that you resonate with Ti. You also mentioned you have been typed as Ti lead before. This is why I mentioned Ti lead.

    To be honest, my first impression was that you are not an Fi user. Because I did not feel that our interaction was similar to my interactions to other confirmed Fi users.

    But now I realized I might be wrong because I was only considering PeFis ! This may be subjective but if you look at conversations between PeFis you can’t miss the fact that we open up very fast to each other about emotional topics and every post of one of us is followed by posts of others that tend to be subjective and emotional. I did not see any exception till now and I don’t see any major difference between NeFi and SeFi or between seelie Fi users and unseelie Fi users.

    But this might not apply to Fi leads ! Fi leads tend to Fi in a different way than PeFis. 🙂 I noticed this with Chalier and Pine. They don’t usually say things like – oh and this happened and I felt this way !!! OMG, I also felt the exact same way when this other thing happened !!!

    I have no idea how this is explained by CT but I could give you countless examples of PeFi conversations that go this way. We have one in the thread about Female Figures in Religion and in the Media. If you observe, me, Animal, tea and fae are all doing this and it goes on and on and on. Almost no adaptation to the other is needed, the talk just unfolds.

    Now Fi leads tend to talk in a more abstract (?) way. Like Ti leads also do. And this is what I was getting from you and what made me actually doubt you could be an Fi user. But I did not consider that Fi leads can be so different from PeFi.

    For example look, you said this (no idea how to quote) :

    `CT seems to work entirely differently and I’m more interested in cracking the code than talking about emotions and feelings right now. My apologies for not answering your guys’ questions, but I thought about it all day and couldn’t find a satisfactory way to word what I was thinking.’ 

    And my first thought was there is no way you can be an Fi user. And I was thinking this sounds like Ti…but no, it just sounds like strong Ji -defining things and finding out the truth. Compare to how Ni conscious people like faeruss express themselves – they already know (!) and express it half cryptically and in a…symbolic way, so you can see it too, as a world view can not be transferred directly to the other person’s mind by explaining things abstractly.

    So, I might have been wrong about you not being Fi lead (now I see both possibilities of Fi and Ti). It’s anyway wrong to make assumptions that are not based on vultological checks.

    Another thing is that you can totally not relate to a function and have it and it can be your first function. (this happened to me with Se)

    About the way you compare functions – I think it would be better to compare Ni to Si, Ne to Se, Te to Fe and Ti to Fi. You can’t really compare Fi and Fe, they are doing different things. Even better if you could compare Ti-Fe to Fi-Te and Ni-Se to Si-Ne.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Bera.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Auburn said the similarities were compelling, but he saw a difference and couldn’t explain what they were.

    It’s hard for me to provide “evidence” and reasons when the key data source is withheld. I wish I could show the video to others, to get a more triangulated opinion. It might help clear up the matter, and even help CT improve if it turns out you’re right.

    The similarities I was seeing were confusing because they are not entirely signal-specific, but almost temperamentally similar. There’s a similar shade of I+N+F going on between you two, but that’s not reliable for readings on its own. You both have introverted energy, soft/dreamy eyes, feminine energy, a very affected demeanor and voice — but these are qualia signs that we’ve long since abandoned. There’s a certain level of vultological crossover between, lets say, NiTe and TiNe, due to a native introversion, the stoicism/dispassion of high-T, and a non-literal energy. But using qualia cues breaks down at scale.

    Still, your INF qualia is quite heavy and I don’t feel the chances of NiFe are zero. But it would have to involve something like:

    • Dry-eye causing eyes to blink, disengage and toggle more like Ne eyes
    • Cupid’s bow + nose-area anatomy causing an Fi-esque static appearance
    • Conscious Ji, adding heavy Ji signals
    • Adaptive Fe with a coordinated femininity causing what seems like Fi “radiation” on the surface

    If I recall correctly you were typed originally as a FiSe, so I suggest considering TiSe as a real possibility. The degree of similarity between the introverted and extroverted types of the same quadra has been woefully underestimated

    The thing about her is, she doesn’t seem Ti-lead or T-lead. There’s a lot of emotional radiation which seems native-state, in other words high-F. Again we don’t really talk in terms of “high-F” and “high-N” here, but at one point long ago we did have terms for these things.

    TiNe and TiSe don’t make sense for her. FiSe and FiNe do, but NiFe’s like Shauna Shapiro and Carolyn come close. Since I can’t use your videos, let me try to show the thread what I mean by the “INF” similarities using two INFs from opposite quadras:

    ^ Notice their similar affect, energy, softness & surreal composure. This is why I’m inclined to say she’s not TiSe, TiNe or some intermediate type.

    We’d have to try to cancel out noise factors for example by having an interview format video.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Auburn.
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera @Auburn Thank you so much! Very good points.

    Auburn, I really appreciate you finally taking the time to explain. It’s been eating me up alive trying to work this out on my own.

    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    okay, @animal I’m at my computer now so I can type out a long post:

    First of all, I do actually know you from the Facebook groups and at the time you seemed to very much agree with my type being NiFe in all systems. We would have long discussions about the differences between Fi/Te and Fe/Ti and you seemed to really agree with seeing me as Fe/Ti as well as Ni/Se in me at the time. Perhaps you were just agreeing with me to keep up good relations, but I always thought of you as someone who would be honest if you noticed something off.

    “I grew up with a NiFe father and FeNi best friend and I have to say, no matter what you say about yourself, you behave absolutely nothing like this type.”

    You showed me videos of your father and described him plenty, and I must say I’m extremely surprised that he was typed NiFe in this system. I think your first assessment of ENTP or your eventual switch to ENTJ were more accurate. I remember thinking to myself that he sounded more ENTJ than ENTP, actually, and explained to you why I was seeing him as more Se valuing than Ne after you suggested it and you seemed to be quite impressed with my perceptions.

    “First of all, NiFe doesnt spend long posts saying ‘I relate to this but not that.’ Pi is a more detached, world view function. Jung talks about this detachment too, in his writing about Ni. It is emphasized that the perspective of Ni is more alien and distant, panoramic view from afar. Not ‘I relate’ and ‘I don’t relate.'”

    I agree with that. This is from my e-mail to Auburn in my replies to my typing results when I was explaining why I saw myself as more Fe than Fi:

    “Another major thing, and Fi people point this out to me often as well, is that I’m always describing myself in terms of how other people describe me and I avoid the “I relate to” traps like the plague. This ‘I relate to’ game is so common in the typology community.”

    You and I talked about this as well. It really doesn’t matter what you relate to when it comes to typology as it’s extremely difficult for us to see ourselves accurately. What’s best is to look for the way people use language and their energy dynamics. I even talked about this in a post in this forum somewhere, but to be honest the thought of hunting that down here is exhausting to me. I still haven’t quite figured out how to navigate these forums gracefully yet, but I think I said something to the effect of, “what I relate to may not actually be how I really am.”

    However, that’s the game that everyone is playing here and everyone keeps asking me what I relate to. It also is interesting that Auburn will change the definitions if we can’t relate to them to suit our vultological type, but I was starting to think that if I’m mistyped then that would sabotage the whole system. This is why I want to clear everything up now.

    “Your posts, by contrast, are more personal, visceral. I can practically taste your frustration, sarcasm and annoyance.”

    I am a bit frustrated and annoyed, yes, but mostly because of things going on in my personal life. I’m venting a bit here, I suppose, because it’s serving as a distraction. I have certainly seen other officially typed NiFe vent their frustrations in these forums before. There was that time the youtuber Chuck came in and defended his INFJ-ness when everyone else was typing him as Fi and Auburn eventually came in and agreed with him, but things got so heated with him around that topics were getting closed down. It was funny and entertaining, actually. I’ve also seen Leahnorra (I don’t know her username here) vent frustrations about personal issues she was having and it was loaded with pathos. I believe Fe is just as, if not more so, emotive than Fi. The NiFe with conscious Ti have been less likely to do this as far as I noticed.

    “This isnt a criticism. I love tasting emotion. I am highly personal and visceral and self referencing myself.”

    Yes, you are. Times 1,000, and it’s pretty awesome.

    “But your personal interaction style is just too… subjectively based.”

    Perhaps so, but I’m extremely confused and am using these forums to try to crack this mystery as I can’t really talk about it anywhere else. The mask of the anonymity is (was) really helping my ability to speak this way.

    “Always going back to your personal relation with things as a subject. This is part of why Socionics calls Fi ‘relations.'”

    Hmm this is interesting, I don’t quite understand what you mean. Socionics Fi is about the relationships between people and knowing the proper distance to keep. It monitors closeness as well as revulsion towards someone. It manifests as distancing or engaging with people.

    “Confusion over FiNe and FiSe is one thing, but someone like you ending up as Ni… I personally wil be mindblown if this happens. It simply doesnt fit the pattern of what Jung, Socionics, and CT describes for Ni at all.”

    Again, you were definitely able to see it before. Back then I rarely talked about myself at all though. The focus was always on you, everyone else, and navigating these systems.

    “I mean where do you see distant panoramic world view in yourself? Or aphoristic speech? Can you pick out one example from your past fifteen posts? Or any on this forum?”

    Perhaps not on this forum as I’ve only been using it to try to clear my confusion, though rather unsuccessfully. Again, the idea of going back through it is exhausting. There was one conversation on Facebook we had when you said you were sure I had 4D Ni. We were discussing environmental concerns and I said something to the effect of believing all biological functions serve a higher purpose and humans were likely put on this Earth to manufacture plastic as perhaps an attempt to create a protective barrier on the Earth’s surface. Later on I saw a video with George Carlin (whom I believe is typed FeNi here) and he had the same idea.

    “Also where is Fe emotional shepharding? Where’s the warm persuasive quality of Fe? Compare the tone of your posts to Faeruss. You have yet to say to someone “let me help you figure that out.” This is the mentoring stance of NiFe, regardless of their prior expertise around the subject at hand. They take a counseling approach.”

    My world has been turned upside down since I received this typing and my questions went unanswered. I had promised Auburn I would try to be more active in these groups, but everything is so different now. For three years I was in the old forums lurking  and posting occasionally to offer up my perspective on a person’s type in the Type Me thread. At the same time I was helping you try to figure out  your type through Socionics as well as introducing you to Cognitive Types and teaching you the vultology methods. You picked up on it much faster than I did, however, as you are better at noticing small nuances and details in the micro-expressions. In the facebook groups I played the role as the guide for the lost. There’s nothing more frustrating to me than seeing people confused about their identity and I wish to help them.

    Now I’m the one who needs help. It happens. That sense of knowing and understanding I had before is in flux and I won’t have the authority to offer up help or advice until I can resolve this haze that’s currently clouding my mind.

    As an aside, I want to apologize for blocking you on Facebook. I did it because my husband at the time wanted me to and I was suggestible to his force. You had blocked him, ironically, because of an argument following his suggestion that your friend was NiTe, which is what she ended up getting typed here. She was identifying as FiSe at the time and you defended her much like you are defending Auburn here. That’s something I’ve always admired about you as well: your fierce loyalty. I really have missed you.

     

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @elisaday
    Ok I know who  you are now!

    Yes you’re right about everything I said back then – I definitely meant everything I said. I’ve missed you too. 🙂  Don’t worry. The drama back then is in the past. I’ve looked at your pictures many times and hoped we could make up. 🙂

    You are right about me – I would never lie to keep up good relations. I’m thoughtful, but I would have found a way to tell you what I thought, if I disagreed. The thing is, back then, I was still new to the system and figuring things out.

    Your husband wasn’t typing @thanatesque as NiTe. I was always ok with that typing for her, as we had debated whether she was NiTe or FiSe many times. He was in fact typing her as SiFe, which I thought was ridiculous. And it is.

    He typed me as SLE, so good for him – he got closer to my actual type (Se lead) than anyone else had. Although I had originally typed as FiSe, so in a different sense I was close. My brief foray into TiSe, when we met, was never quite sitting right. Some “experts” had suggested it and I had contacted you, because I asked you for help in processing this suggestion. And I appreciate all the help you did give me. 🙂  You always noticed I had strong Se, and you also noticed that my Se appeared to be 4D in Socionics.  It’s just, we were stuck on the idea of me being Beta, and SLE (Fi polr) didn’t feel right to me.

    Anyway, I never was against Thana being NiTe, so that’s not true; I was only against her being SiFe.

    As for your type and mine – obviously, I was much less educated in the system at the time. I thought I was a Beta; therefore I thought you had to be a Beta too.  Now that I’ve come back to my original typing in Gamma – which I typed at for almost two years before we met — I have learned a lot more about the system. I was  a total noob when we were talking 🙂 so anything I might have suggested back then, has evolved, since I’ve studied the systems in depth.

    During our time off, I had talked to my husband about my new ideas about people. I mentioned to him that perhaps you were Fi lead. Before we came here – I swear this on my life. I even told him that if I got back in contact with you, I would tell you this. The only reason I didn’t tell you immediately was because you blocked me.

    This revelation came because I learned more about functions. It had nothing to do with disliking you, because in fact I never hated, disliked or resented you. I never could. You’re beautiful inside and out, and I will not change my opinion on that so easily. Unblock me, dammit 🙂

    😛

    But I understood the pressure you were under. don’t worry. I’m also really intense about my relationships, and loyal, as you point out.

    I argue with @auburn a lot. I still have major bones to pick with some of his descriptions and I’ve been slowly mulling over how I want to present my argument. He asked me some excellent questions this past week, and I haven’t answered him yet because I want to give a thorough, thoughtful response. Regarding the Fe description. I’ve also worked on some thoughts about new ways to approach Se, or Pe in general.  But it takes me a while to formulate these things into words.

    Anyway… you and your husband always saw strong Se in me. Likewise, after I studied more about functions, I pegged you in my mind as Fi but never had a chance to tell you.

    I swear this on my life. This has nothing to do with loyalty. I’ll say flat out that you and I went deep enough that I had more loyalty to you in this scenario. I wish we could have worked out our problems so we could have had this conversation in a way that wouldn’t make it look like I’m “siding with others against you.” Because it really isn’t about that; it’s about my views on the system evolving. I was shit at the system back then and you & your husband were way ahead of me, so I was taking your typings for granted! That all stopped after I learned more.

    I just hope you will take me at my word that my opinion about the system is not meant as an assault on our friendship or on you as a person. I also hope you can believe me that I changed my mind about a lot of things before I even came to this forum; including your type; and I just hadn’t made it known since we weren’t talking. There’s absolutely no negative sentiment attached to this. I just got better at vultology and typology in general, and you look & seem like  my evolved understanding of Fi lead.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Animal.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @elisaday

    Just to be totally clear – before I got to this forum, I had typed myself as EIE (FeNi), @ivory (my husband) as LSI (TiSe), and @thanatesque as ILI with a secondary possibility of ESI (FiSe). I had also typed @spirit_of_the_gael as ILI, with a secondary possibility of Delta introvert. When we got here, my most recent typings of others (all the others I mentioned) had been correct! The only one that was off was my own; and it was only because people like you and your husband kept saying I was such a Beta.

    If you recall, right before we stopped talking, I had already moved back to Gamma. I was considering Gamma NT, and your husband laughed at me.

    I had my father at Ni ego, and I wasn’t sure which one, until I sent his videos over here. But @ivory had actually suggested IEI and NiFe for my father, more than once, before I sent his videos. So we were honing in on things correctly.

    During this time period, when we were actually getting things right, I also honed in on you as Fi lead; but I didn’t make a big deal of it since we weren’t talking. I just told my husband and that’s it. I didn’t want drama.

    But I had caught on to a lot of the same conclusions that @auburn did, after I studied a lot more. His typings of others matched my own most recent typings which I had concluded before any of us got here.

    That said, I have not exactly been ‘defending’ him. If you check out several other threads, I give him a hard time all the time 😛  but more about the descriptions than his typings. I think his typings tend to be very good. The only one right now where I’m leaning differently from him is @faeruss, who I think may be NiFe, but I’m not stuck to it. And Thorne, who Auburn types as TeSi but I would have seen  TeNi in his personality.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Animal.
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Ok, thank you @animal. I’m so happy we could clear the air! Thank you for the second opinion, and I will trust it as valid input.

    He told me you all thought he was typing her as SiFe, but what he was actually saying was that she was expressing an SiF- superego which would come from an NiT- type as SiF- is their superego. He’s pretty difficult to understand.

    Any refreshed ideas as to what you think his type may be?

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @elisaday Hmm, my most recent ideas about your husband were that he’s Alpha NT. However, I came up with this way way before I got the other types right, and haven’t thought about it since. Let me think it over and I’ll let you know.

    Physically I think he looks more Pi. So I have to think about where he might fit. I’m definitely not seeing SLE for him, and likely not LSI either.

    I’m glad we cleared this up too 🙂 I’m really happy to see you 🙂

    And lol that’s funny. I had no idea. I thought he was typing her as SiFe and I suspect that’s what everyone else thought also.

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Wait, what just happened?

    Also, what are all these type communities??

     

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn

    I didn’t realize that @elisaday was someone I knew from before. I had met her in a facebook forum, and I invited her to a very private forum which I started for her husband specifically! Her husband had a fight with a few people on the forum where I had met them both, so I invited them, and a few others, to a new forum that I created myself.

    That forum was very small. Maybe 30 people. After the fight between me, elisa and her husband, I dismantled it.  The people there were on my other Enneagram facebook forum anyway.

    We had an argument about type, but there may have been personal issues too. I don’t even know anymore 🙁 but I am happy if we can all make up. The two of them tried their best and were so helpful to me. They pegged me as Se lead!!! The only reason it didn’t stick is because I was typing as Beta (and everyone was insisting I was Beta, too)… and SLE or SeTi just wasn’t feeling right for me.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Animal.
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