Could I be mistyped? possibly Ne, versus Se.

[GreenCoyote]

There has been some talk on the forums on how certain types like Fi and Ti relate to the others description that is not their native one. Auburn has mentioned that this is crossover and mores represents a Ji description over Fi or Ti on an individual level.
I am currently wondering wether this is true for Ne and Se or if I am possibly mistyped at all.
I am mainly concerned with the level of athleticism attributed to Se types in the Vultology system. I am personally very non-athletic and really relate to a lot of Ne things in the description (parodies, magical thinking) and feel I am not realistic at all when it comes to my outer world or even concerned with realism.
below is a video of me explaining this and I figured a video would also be good to show my signals. I am curious also about my eyes. Because at times they can appear innocent and naive looking. and at other times they have a more charged Se look to them. you can see this in my eyes at the beginning of the video where they (to me, but I might be wrong) seem Se and then at the end where they soften and seem more innocent Naive looking.
Anyway. I would appreciate all the help I can get on this and want to open up the discussion of reconciling the Se and Ne descriptions and finding common ground and where they are also different.
 

[EpicEntity]

I was never into athletics either. I like electric-boarding, non-boxing martial arts; I want to get into parkour. I like the idea of becoming another person or bringing life into a fictional character until I can feel what they feel; rather then make fun of them.
This is an NFL video. I'd say they mostly look Si dominated. What do you think? Maybe the Se users are just culturally rooted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UoG6cv6i_c
PS: I also don't room around not realizing how I end up in places. You may have Ni muse.

 Daimon / Muse
An unconscious function can take two forms, that of the daimon or of the muse. When the unconscious function is daimonic, it is in its lowest form of integration and appears as an agent separate from the ego. The daimon will appear as an “other” entity that is not associated with us (or so we think), and who we may even be afraid of. The daimon corresponds roughly to what has been previously called repression in CT, although this is now evolving and repression was not the right term for it. The daimon is described as:.... -Auburn

 

CT Psychoanalysis

[GreenCoyote]

I think you are right Epic!
i have felt a lot of sports people, (at least people who talk about sports the most) have Si somewhere in their stack.
if i am a SeTi i would say that Ni is definitely a muse. I am the one that heals the psychic fantastical energy deficits or shifts in my friends using crystals and spells and such. I am actually quite good at it too.
i also want to ask... what is electric boarding? Is it like skateboarding but possibly easier? Cause maybe i could give that a try

[a.k.a.Janie]

I don't know if it's possible, but maybe you have an undifferentiated Perceiving axis? Someone in a Discord discussion said they had an undifferentiated Judging axis, so that's why I've actually been thinking about it myself. Right now, all I can say is, I relate to your situation in that, (as we've talked about before) I have signal mixing between Se and Ne, but more Se. And I do feel like if it's possible to be in between, that it fits me better than purely one or the other.
I have heard about your relationship with Ni. Although I don't have Ni conscious, either, I do feel like it makes more sense for me than Si. It's a bit hazy. But I did show one Ni signal (No Si). So, I don't know if you've ever felt like you had Si? (or shown any of the signals - I'm not any good at reading them (yet)).

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Hiya @greencoyote,
Oh hehe, I'm not "retyping people" right now. There was one FiNe who was clarified as TiNe but the others are clarifications between seelie & unseelie differences and development levels.
In your particular case I'm still seeing SeTi quite clearly, and this is both in vultology and psychology.
Also, I really am not sure why this keeps coming up but the Se profile makes almost no mention of athletics or sports. There are some valid feedback points that have already been extensively mentioned in other threads, but I haven't really gotten around to re-writing the article (too much to do!). Among those are the fact that Pe-leads in general are prone to be messy and clumsy, and dexterity is an acquired trait in all people (even though some Se users may be driven towards dexterity in a given favored domain). This will be adjusted in the upcoming changes.
The Se profile, remembering that it is a behavioral profile and not the metabolism (thus not to be taken as proof/non-proof of cognition), needs work but even so it spends most of its time painting a picture of an attitude towards reality. Kinesthetic activities like martial arts are mentioned only passively as examples. So the Se=Sports meme is a meme that you don't have to worry about in CT.
To quote @alice from this thread:

Se might not always have to do with extreme sports or adrenaline filled experiences. It sometimes has to do with seeking out new experiences, interesting stuff, getting what you want immediately, or mixing things up a little for yourself or others. Your experience of not liking driving because you don’t like traffic is a pretty good example of this. Se may manifest in a lack of patience, or is maybe better understood as a desire to get moving.

There is only one mention of the word "sports" in the profile but I'm almost tempted to remove it, due to how much karmic libido appears to be directed against the word among our personal member base. That said, the mode of expression of Se can be varied and you've mentioned being into things like Electronic Dance Music. EpicKalypse above mentioned "I like electric-boarding, non-boxing martial arts; I want to get into parkour." -- which is another example of the same type of vivid-experience-drive. The key here is to not fixate on affiliating with "sports" as a genre, or any other particular genre, if the essence of the affiliation remains the same; that of an impulse towards vivid experiences and an intimate relationship to reality in some creative way.
I hope some of this is helpful. This is just my opinion but now that the codifier is complete, other members are also free to make their own reports.
And I apologize that the Se profile doesn't fit your personal experience fully. It's a well understood problem and I've just been far too involved in other things to give it the proper revision - but it'll be coming soon. ^^;

[GreenCoyote]

Wow! Thank you auburn for taking the time to reply to me. That was a perfect explanation. Ok. So im still SeTi. Good to know!
i didn’t know that Pe leads can all be pretty clumsy. That really just blows my doubts about my type out of the water.
anyway thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I know you are busy. You also have been coming out with some really cool stuff lately! So i am glad you are busy 🙂

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Hehe! Thanks.
I also really appreciate member feedback like this, even if I have a hard time keeping up with it. But yknow, I was thinking just now that maybe I will set a deadline for myself - 2 weeks - to come up with the Se profile rewrite. Since it's been in dire need for a while now. So by February I'll try my best to have it for you.
Feel free to bug me if I don't have it by then lol

[GreenCoyote]

And thanks janie, i think auburns explanation makes a lot more sense.
the only real qualm i had was the clumsy thing being a Sensor. But that probably just some outdated stereotype i remember from some other mbti or socionics thing i have heard before.
i dont think i have too many Si signals. In fact my report was probably one of the clearest as in their was not a single signal that wasn’t in my stack. I had Fe Ni Se and Ti very clearly.

[GreenCoyote]

Oh auburn that would be greaaaat 🙂
there is just so much stuff in the Ne profile i relate to as well and it would be really cool to hear whats in common and the differentiations.
The way my real life is going 2 weeks will be here in no time. So stoked!

[Cosmo]

I just wanted to chime in here as a non Se user who is very much into athletics, fitness and exercise. I do think it is an outdated stereotype to attribute Se to athletics. I've always been interested in dance, playing sports and being physically active and fit. I was a certified personal trainer for many years too. In the enneagram world, this stereotype is also attributed to the self preservation instinct, which is untrue as I'm so/sx and therefore self pres blind.
I'm excited to see the revised Se profile. It's always so interesting to see things change and improve as we get more clarified data.
Edit: I should add that I'm terrible at spatial awareness, map navigation and activities such as roller skating or skiing, so I suppose that holds true to some of the Se blind points.

[EpicEntity]

@greencoyote -

i also want to ask… what is electric boarding? Is it like skateboarding but possibly easier? Cause maybe i could give that a try

Easier? I can easily see skateboarders saying it is. I have never fully got down the basics of skateboarding. I haven't taught myself how to push and stop the electric-board with my foot. I just rely on the remote as well as my body's motions to counter inertia and steer. The easiest is an electric-scooter. That's what had before my electric-board. Electric-scooter takes hours to get going. Electric-board takes days to get going. I have fallen once with the E-S and nine times with the E-B. Only one fall with the E-B was really bad. Good luck!

[Bera]

Hey ! There is so much you brought up.
I am also not into sports and I am very clumsy. Once I fell down some stairs because I was listening to a song on Spotify and I wanted to heart it...and the moment I hearted it, I stumbled down and did an impressive jump and fell backwards on my hands and feet, my phone hitting the floor. Luckily I didn't break anything. :))
Another time I wanted to cross the street and I noticed a car was rushing towards me, so I did 2 steps back and stumbled on a little pole and fell on it. :)) Again nothing very bad happened.
Once I forgot my glasses in a suitcase and looked for them for 3 days, not knowing where they were.
I think this is because of Pe tendency to seek novelty, that makes us not pay attention to boring, mundane and repetitive stuff like the steps or our way home. The difference seems to be just in some metabolic processes we might not yet grasp completely. I don't make the wild, original associations Ne leads do - I can very well see I don't. But my mind is also constantly seeking the new and the magical. And anyone I know would probably not describe me as a down to earth or realistic person, they would say I am pretty much the head in the clouds type.
But I think we just assume we are using Se in order to focus on mundane everyday things because this is what we connect to reality. And I guess this is where we are wrong.
Heightened focus can be on ideas. The one thing in front of us might not really be a thing at all and if it is, every thing is connected to a lot of other things. So, we can highly focus on something and by association get into a lot of adjacent topics. It might just go a little bit slower than with Ne leads because we don't tend to spread our interests a lot at the same time.
I noticed this with some Ne lead friends who are clearly open to many domains and topics at the same time, which I am not, because I like to study one or mostly 2 things at a time, so I need to cut off the rest, as much as I regret it. I don't want to spread my attention in too many directions, because my attention is intense but not broad, so I simply can't keep a lot of stuff  in my mind at once without starting to feel tired or just getting the impression that I will never make any progress in any of these fields because I don't dig deep enough in any of them.
The downside is this way I will never ever have the astonishing culture I see in many Ne users (which might be actually more connected to their Si?) and in order to change this for the better, I decided to read at least half an hour per day about something I am NOT currently focusing on.
But if you look at it closer, if I obsess about tarot, it's not really the same with doing a Youtube video about my bracelet collection. Or maybe it is. :))) Because the mental processes are the same, aren't they? So why would I say tarot > bracelet collections ? But to someone who isn't inside my head, I still look like a magically inclined person and not like a realistic girl, you know? :)) And it takes a lot of self analysis to see that metabolically my mind works in the Se way and not in the Ne one, though my interests are a bit further from the outer world and closer to the inner world...but interests have a bit more to do with our life experience and the people we encounter on our way than with our type, I think.
Now, as I'm reading the Se profile again, it actually makes a lot of sense. There aren't that many tangents, I tend to just follow one line. My poor peripheral sight and lack of distributed attention are consequences of this.
But for me presence just means being in the now, not really in the here and now. 🙂
There are also parts like this that we imagine refer to sports and other activities that involve the body a lot :

The Se user will get “in the zone” and feel most in their element when they can perform in real-time, making up their next move as they go.

I do this when talking about contracts at work. Or when trying to navigate social situations. It's really about adapting to ever changing situations, not about riding waves or skateboarding. I mean... it can be physical and I totally love swimming, for example, but it doesn't have to be physical.
As Pe leads we love to learn new things and this is also a way of constantly adapting to new information.
Regarding style...I think this is not very relevant - people dress according to their job, income, beliefs and many other factors. If I worked in a place where I wouldn't be obliged to wear office clothes, I would never in my life buy an office dress and I would just wear jeans and fun T-shirts or cute flowery dresses. If I was shorter, I would wear short skirts and long dresses, as they would then suit my body type...etc.  What we wear is more influenced by circumstances than by type in my opinion.
Vultologically I can say I see a lot of pointed Se toggling. And some Ni scowls. 🙂 I don't see naive eyes or Ne brush stroke movements or any Ne signals but I will look again tomorrow when I'm well rested and my head is clearer. 🙂 Your brows are not the most raised I've seen but you do show raised outer edges too.
I think the way Se- Sharp eyes and Ne - Naive eyes are explained in the Codifier might help ! Yours look sharp to me. Taut - preseptal (that area between lids and eye brows is raised) and soft - pretarsal (the upper eyelids).
Try to also compare to Ni - that are taut preseptal and heavy - pretarsal. The upper eyelids just fall heavier and cover a bigger part of the eyes.
This helps A LOT and is a huge clarification for me. I don't say it will always solve this issue, but it's really the best thing I can recommend till Auburn makes his Se and Ne video. 🙂

[Rua]

@bera - Very well said! Having what I would consider a very basic grasp on vultology now, I have begun to notice that Se energy feels quite distinct from Ne energy in how it manifests in person; this becomes especially easy to see in real life when all parties are interacting in the same room. The vitality that Se-leads can radiate is unique to itself rather than being subsumed in Pe, and it can drive away my dark moods faster than almost any technique I have practiced on my own, whereas interacting with other Ne-leads does not have the same effect for me.
To crudely summarize some differences between the shared vitality of Pe (though both functions can be found poking their noses into the nooks and crannies the other functions hadn't thought to notice) --

• Se's vitality has weight and gravity to it, it naturally is driving forward with intensity towards... something, whether that something is a fantastical, esoteric idea, or whether it's a workout routine.
• Ne's vitality lacks weight, it's whimsical and floaty. Its vitality can be applied successfully to grave and serious matters, but it would likely require the help of another function to successfully convince others that it was serious about those endeavors, as it naturally comes across as flightier than Se.

And in regards to sports and intense physical activity having been pigeonholed into the S functions in other typologies, I have a strong suspicion that a major tributary for this error comes from industrialized cultures, in which being sedentary and unconcerned with physical labor have been historically tied to perceptions of wealth and status (driving a car rather than walking/biking/using public transport). This of course also feeds rather nicely into the massive N>S bias that is rife in other typologies... yet humanity as a species would make very little sense if physical fitness and prowess were tied directly to non-universal structures of the mind, rather than being inseparably rooted in the basic reality of being an organism that must exist in a physical world in direct competition with other physical bodies.

[GreenCoyote]

@bera
"I noticed this with some Ne lead friends who are clearly open to many domains and topics at the same time, which I am not, because I like to study one or mostly 2 things at a time, so I need to cut off the rest, as much as I regret it. I don’t want to spread my attention in too many directions, because my attention is intense but not broad, so I simply can’t keep a lot of stuff  in my mind at once without starting to feel tired or just getting the impression that I will never make any progress in any of these fields because I don’t dig deep enough in any of them."
-this really clears things up for me. I am the same way. I tend to obsessively focus on one topic at a time. and sort of have to switch between them to achieve anything rather than just keeping them all in mind at once. Sometimes it can be hard to integrate different aspects of my life due to this factor.
 

@rondo
" but it would likely require the help of another function to successfully convince others that it was serious about those endeavors, as it naturally comes across as flightier than Se."
-Yeah, I feel like when I am interested in something (Se related I suppose) people assume I am serious about it, which in a way I am but I too have different interests. I just don't have them at the same time like Bera mentioned above, the divergent focus isn't there and the focus is singular, which maybe other people perceive as more serious about a specific interest. Maybe Se is able to get more backing for their projects from some people?

[GreenCoyote]

@cosmo
"Edit: I should add that I’m terrible at spatial awareness, map navigation and activities such as roller skating or skiing, so I suppose that holds true to some of the Se blind points."
funny you say those things specifically because I am extremely spatial aware. My sister who auburn typed as an SeFi has been great at navigation ever since.. well... birth essentially. and the one thing I like to do that is sorta athletic IS roller blading! Although on the roller blading thing I definitely have friends that are WAY more coordinated than me at it.

[Author]

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