@Auburn all of that makes perfect sense and I agree with all of it! Thank you for the elaboration.
Also, I know we've had similar conversations before, but I feel like this time I actually understood more where you're coming from regarding Pe. Ok, consider my protests addressed =D
I would bet that @Ivory had II-- all his life but he just doesn't have the attention span for laborious artistic mastery. He spends hours each day looking at pictures, organizing tumblr etc, and he is very visual and fluid in that way, but much like me (or Trent) he wouldn't arbitrarily call himself an artist without putting in the labor toward mastery. But anyway I'll shut up and let him answer that, just putting in my 2 cents. Maybe he meant something different by it; this is just my immediate guess.
I'm curious though, of one more thing -- the 'variety' aspect of Pe. I shouldn't insist that it's wrong ;D but I'm just curious how you see that playing out in obsessed dedicated types? Would you bet that it's the overload of J, why I don't care for variety of interests and really hone in on the few that compel me? (Don't get me wrong, I do act very much like an explorer when out in the world; I'm quite spontaneous; but this is just me living in the moment, not taking on multiple interests, if that makes sense.)
Ivory fits many Pe descriptions better than I do. As a kid in class he was bored, antsy, couldnt sit still. He was into addictive hobbies like video games. Living with him, he's quite spontaneous on a regular basis. He also makes collages expressing himself exactly in the manner I do - spontaneous and revealing something deep within. Difference is that my content looks flowy and his is more upright. Everyone in the forums agrees that his collages are by far the best; this has been a constant theme. It's impossible not to notice how good they are. His basic aesthetic sense is far superior to mine. When we say he isnt an artist it's because he hasnt put in the 10k hours. And this was a constant theme through his life - tremendous talent in many areas including the arts, but low discipline. I think he is very very Pe, but we are snobs who want to see only high quality art and dedicated artists calling themselves artists. In the actual process though, he really has flow. And he is playful on a constant basis, jittery, leg tappy and position shifty. He is just 1) undisciplined to sit in one place perfecting a craft for decades (no Je) and 2) not too keen on humans. 🌚
Here's his collages
Speaking of high standards, I've been editing my books for gazillion hours per week, and wrote books since age 10 or so, but I still don't call myself "a writer" - I say that I wrote books and I'm editing my trilogy. I would not call myself a pianist either. The only craft I mastered on a level worth labeling is "singer." There is concrete proof of this. Most people would say I'm a good piano player or writer, and I have done both for money, but I don't consider myself a master. So there may have been a miscommunication around the meaning of "artist," which is why I posted that there are so many ways to view what an artist is.
Ivory fits many Pe descriptions better than I do. As a kid in class he was bored, antsy, couldnt sit still. He was into addictive hobbies like video games.
I was never bored in school - how can a Pe even be bored in school? A shmorgasbord of new information to feed on every day? I loved school, no problems sitting still. However, my mind would sometimes take its own tangents with various topics being taught, so I could sometimes mentally "check out." I think "inattentive" is a better description than bored or antsy. I am never bored, I'm just hyper-stimulated by everything. I get excited with new information and I run with it on my own until it trails off from what I (or a teacher) started with.
When we say he isnt an artist it’s because he hasnt put in the 10k hours. And this was a constant theme through his life – tremendous talent in many areas including the arts, but low discipline. I think he is very very Pe
Definitely yes to this though. I was naturally good at many things. I didn't have to try hard to impress. At least in the beginning. As the fish I swam among became more and more specialized in their fields, my lack of discipline was obvious. I used to think I was disciplined, but I was mistaking being responsible and dutiful for discipline. I will pick up others slack, I'll keep things moving along and I'll tend to what needs tending, but purposefully developing skills has always been a weak point 🙁
I have a few other people sending me new videos, now that the dev levels have begun to mature into a better psychological and vultological place. I’d love to see another one of you.
@Auburn I'll try to get one to you in the next month or two. I'm kinda not feeling video-making motivation at the moment though.
I also don't know what it feels like to be bored. Never done it. =D I was pretty focused in class as well. I was just really shy in school years, and never felt confident in my knowledge. Unlike you and Ivory, I learn slowly. So I would be really quiet and attentive in class for a while and then everything would synthesize over time, and then one day I'd finally start talking during participation moments in class.. and everyone would go "Wow, she's brilliant!" But really I'm not, not in that way. I'm just highly focused. And before the illness I had a really good memory. That's less reliable now, to say the least.
Vanity of 'new' VS Celebration of 'new'
I am at work. Our loads are low letting us all enjoy some down time. Instead of taking to my coworkers I choose to play a game on my phone. I bust out the phone and one of my co-workers (higher paygrade) informs me "yo isn't that phone out dated". I'm like "yeah you might be right". He continues "dude you got to get you one of the latest phones". I'm still like ''this one works just fine".
I am with my favorite short notice cab driver going to school. "Yo did you hear about that latest galaxy notepad phone!" "Yeah I think I heard something about it" "Bro it is the coolest the thing in the world!" "It looked pretty hot." "No bro check it out! The screen size is too big for me to drive with. I have to go back and get a regular galaxy. I wish I could keep it. Here you hold it check it out all the crazy new features. You can see how the new GPU renders this huge number apps. That would kill my old phone!" "Man I wish it was my time to trade in I still have a year to go" "It's no problem man... by that time something better will be poppen out... heck there's already news out for next years notepad... so I envy YOU"!
I am not like that at all. It's important to me to minimize my needs. I will wear the same sneakers for 10, 15 years; the same phone until it dies, etc. I'm still using Iphone SE. I don't follow 'trends,' I follow my inner muse - but when people try to get competitive with me, I feel that I won because I don't need all that crap to look hot and feel alive. I don't mean this as an insult. I'm just talking about how I am quite competitive in a way, but I feel that I won because I'm competing against my own ideal, and staying focused. I take pride in being somewhat oblivious to the material consumer world. I am attuned to something different.
I am not implying that my mindset is better, really. I'm just talking about how I manage to convince myself and others that I am winning competitions that I am not even joining. And if people hate or envy me for this, all the more power to me.
I just stumbled on this quote, and it's not the perfect quote for me, but it does touch upon part of my mindset.
This is how I see myself: someone who strives for mastery. And the most important thing to master is my relationship to my own vitality and ideals.
The reason this quote is not fully me, is that there were never 'many possibilities' for me. But I can understand this when approaching a subject like typology. When I start reading about a system I narrow down to one or two types that could be mine, but then as I learn more I find myself seeing other possibilities. Same goes for typing others. And I start doing it well, with high accuracy, but not 100%. So my trained mind knows not to settle on a type too soon, to leave a slight door open. As I grow in expertise, then my mind quickly narrows down to one or two possibilities, but those are usually among the correct ones. With even more expertise, I will get it right the first time. So, there is truth to the statement when it comes to the intellect.
But when it comes to my life path, who I am, and my role in the universe.. the possibilities are few. I know who I am and what I have potential to become, and do it well. I figured that stuff out before I was 10; it made itself clear to me. And part of who I am is someone that didn't watch tv as a kid, AT ALL. Who didn't get caught up in video games. Who gets one phone and makes it last, but doesn't stress over 'taking care of a phone' because there are more important things. I just keep it til it breaks. So if people tease me about having old stuff, I think, that's because the point of 'stuff' is to create beauty and to have function. The consumer culture isn't my planet.
This also allows me to minimize my work hours so I can focus on the arts, my true passion. Having less material needs has a pragmatic function to maximize the free time available to me to pursue and fulfill my true purpose. That being said, 'material needs' was never something that I had to wrestle with. I do have a strong need to look hot, to wear clothes that express me, to have technology available to me that makes my multimedia art projects possible (camera, video editing, keyboard, guitars, etc). I actually hate music for this reason but I still have visions to fulfill. I wish I'd been just a writer, so that one computer would be enough, but I have this burning need in my soul to pursue my music & videos. But I make my music videos with one camera, and edit them by myself on one computer. So that shows how I manage to capture beauty without needing too much material crap. My budget is really low for each video, often under $100 because I work with my actors so they can bring their own costumes which are right for the scene, I borrow props, and I build gorgeous sets out of cardboard if I must. I'm resourceful. So in that sense, when I have ONE VISION, I see the possibilities before me for how to actualize it with minimal cost to myself. I am VERY fast at finding these avenues, and when one doesn't work out, I find another. But this is not about 'new things,' it's about opportunism when I have one thing that I've been slowly working to get done since I was a kid (my albums & videos).
So maybe this is just me, Pe with a lot of J. But you can see why 'variety' doesn't do it for me. If anything, it gets in the way of what's important. And I'm allergic to living without purpose.
@LadyNerdsky I really like the point you are making.
I looked over the list of 130 doctors you linked, only very briefly, and what stood out the most to me was Fi/Te > Ti/Fe. So mostly deltas and gammas, very few alphas and even fewer betas, I think..
For my patreon 'soft typing,' Auburn typed my doctor at FeNi, with the smaller possibility of TeNi. What's interesting is he doesn't just do medicine; he leads a cause around the world for a politicized illness to get recognition. There's a whole cause to deny that Chronic Lyme exists, even as it kills hundreds of thousands of people -- CDC and governments worldwide deny treatment to patients who need it for years rather than just the standard "lyme treatment" for 6-8 weeks. There's a big political battle around it. Just explaining this for context. My doctor has published two extremely comprehensive books about why Lyme is misdiagnosed and how to get treated, with tons of research behind it, and he also goes around to different countries to speak about this cause. He made himself not just a doctor, but the 'hero' or 'freedom fighter' like what is described for Fe. The other Lyme doctors I've seen, who are doing a lot behind the scenes but are not 'hero celebrity' types, are indeed Fi/Te valuing as far as I can tell.
Obviously you don't have to watch this, but just to show who he is.
It's interesting that even within a certain field, certain types will go about it differently. He went to medical school and he's excellent with the science around it, yet he chose this particular path. My father, a NiFe, was also a rockstar before he was a doctor. @Auburn you can tuck this away in the 'trend-observation' files. 🙃
what happen when you implemented MBTI into your work?
what happen when you implemented Enneagram into your work?
what happen when you implemented CT into your work?
How did your work change each time?
PS: Would say me checking out that new phone was akin to appreciating new art?
Edit: sorry if that all seemed forced... I am just really curious!
When it comes to MBTI/Socionics/CT/Jung, I've always been a holistic thinker. I don't separate those into separate systems but rather use them all as stepping stones to get to the 'one truth.' Before I found CT, my husband and I, and a few close friends, were already working on a synthetic model. Due to this, we had typed many people based on nothing but personality and words (although we were starting to pick up visual cues), and most of the types came out identical to the ones Auburn picked out through vultology.
In general, I synthesize things into one greater worldview. When it comes to Cognition, the study helps me tremendously with grasping nuances in how different characters understand the world. My main character is Ji lead for sure, and very likely a Beta. For a while, I asked @Ivory for input. He would read a paragraph and say he didn't relate, and I would ask for details on how he might think about it. Then I didn't need to ask him anymore, or not as often, because I got the point of how Ji works, how Beta sees things, etc. Perhaps 80% of the book already fit this - which is why I typed her TiSe. But there were some nuances in her thinking that I missed. Same goes for other characters who I was better able to hone in. I don't write types, I write characters and type them later. But sometimes I miss nuances in how the character's mind might be communicated in words. It's very easy for me to write third-person characters, because I observe people day to day and so I know "what kind of person they are," how they look and seem, etc; but when I'm inside someone's head it's really important to understand these nuances in their thinking.
As for Enneagram it wove into the book even more deeply. I have my own system of symbols, and it works into religious archetypes in my story. Enneagram gave me some more depth and backbone to work from. My model is not enneagram - it's different - but the premises have some overlap and it has helped me tremendously to expand the model. I can't say much more until the book is published. But I've studied enneagram in depth for 8 years and loosely for 17. It is simply part of my world view now, and the same applies to what I said above: I write characters and type them later, but enneagram helps me understand their nuances. Both of these systems also allow me more language for nuance when it comes to symbolism. I don't do 1:1 "textbook explanations." It's more of a worldview that wove so deeply into my mindset that it became automatic; like a language that I learned, except it's the language of the universe.
My work didn't change "each time" - it's an ongoing process.
Re: your phone - I can't answer that without first defining what you mean by 'art.' To me, anything can be done artfully, but to be an artist means you hone in on an artistic craft (writing, music, visual arts) and create concrete works. Debating the 'meaning' of art could go on forever, and it's subjective. The word has become meaningless because if going out to get a new phone is 'art,' then what do you call people slaving away for decades to master and create something as a career?
To me, "art" is a specific thing that doesn't have to describe every activity that someone does well. Think of it this way: if someone goes to art school, what do they do in class? They do not earn an art school degree by buying phones. They do paintings, drawings, video, photoshop, music, sculpture, bookmaking, writing, performing and so forth. Pretty simple delineation.
The problem is, we have "Liberal Arts," etc. Every field is called "Arts." So maybe everything is "the art of" something, in which case being an artist in the "art school" and "professional, masterful and dedicated videographer/painter/musician" sense requires a different term. Basically, before deciding if something is art, we first must agree on what art IS. Describing 'the art of buying phones' vs. 'the art that is a result of masterful craft, personal expression and laborious effort' are simply not the same thing.
There are many people in the world who have scientific minds - they seek cold, hard data; they seek fundamental underpinnings, equations, etc. Then they may read some pop sci magazines and books on science. But still, they do not call themselves a 'scientist,' unless they make the decision to work in that profession, which often requires school, a degree, concrete experiments, papers, etc - not to mention that when you commit to a profession, you sacrifice the chance to take on other professions. People with scientific minds don't generally call themselves scientists because they have respect for what career scientists went through to get where they are. But for some reason, people don't have this same respect for career artists. They think everyone and their mother is an artist, so they expect hard-working dedicated artists - who sacrificed all else to pursue the arts - to give their art away for free. I refuse to play along with this ruse.
I was feeling 4 main things in the following order.
I was figuring out how I can make this all about how you really are celebrating 'new' every time added nauces to your characters.
I was realizing that I was only partially listening to what you were saying and barely seeing it from your point of view.
I was mad... feeling you were stuffing me into the category of "vanity of 'new'", which I tried to present myself as otherthan, instead of the category of "celebration of 'new'", which I try to present myself as apart of.
I am worried that you might be infected with the category of '"vanity of "I am above the vanity of 'new'''. In the sense that the infected would need the idea of other people who think they are special for having new things as prop for the infected to always be above. Thereby allowing the infected to feel morally special. I would think that someone who wouldn't need such a prop could have a visibly fair degree of appreciation for the differences in the new from the old. Do you feel any of this to be invalid?
It's not invalid in general but it's very different from how I think. I wasn't stuffing you into a category and I'm sorry you felt that way. I just was trying to explain my reaction and relationship to such things, since you had asked.
I don't celebrate the new nor do I have vanity of the new. I am not much of a celebrator actually ;D but I fall in love with nature, what 'is,' the flow, dedication and commitment, passion, integrity, beauty. But more than anything, I love the timeless and eternal, the patterns that repeat ad nauseum, which apply to the here and now, but also to any other time period in human history. Cell phones are modern and incidental. I take interest in the themes that endure, the cycles that repeat. So I read about Hitler but my interest wasn't Hitler or Germany, it was 'power.' How does power work? How does fascism sneak its way into a free society? These themes are timeless, wherever there are humans. I am not interested in anything that is allocated only to one time period or specific setting. So , I don't care about 'traveling' or seeing architecture. I care about feeling the meaning of red, basking in the heat, and experiencing fire, in myself and in the world. And from there, the archetype of fire, and how it ties into typology, or human consciousness. Does that make sense?
From what you just brought to life I think you've just proven of to be the biggest celebrator, in the sense that was just referring to, that I know. Discovering things within the old that were not old to you before. I may call that a true master of newness. A level that I strive to arrive at myself.
Edit: Then again this might what I am seeing with you being a 487 or 478. As 741 I'm leaning more towards what is ultimately possible for human/AI creation. I can be pretty utopian with added benefit of accepting and incorporating an unlimited degree realism. As long as I continue to be self aware enough to digest seemingly uncomfortable evidence.
I used to type as 487 for a long time, so you are really close! After that I typed as 486. As it turns out, after 10 years of study, I'm quite certain that my head fix is 5w6. I have 4w3, 8w7, and 5w6- all with very big wings. So my 7 wing on 8 is big, and my 6 wing on 5 is big, which made it hard for me to find my head-fix. But all my raw, immediate energy comes from 4w3 (which is a reactive and raw, immediate type; unlike it is portrayed in some of the literature) -- and from 8w7. I'm actually 5w6 fix which I think leads me to be a bit more "singular-minded" and meticulous about which knowledge I'm going to pursue. You do strike me as a 7, and a really interesting one at that! What you just said about what you're striving for, makes a lot of sense and it's beautiful. Some of the great minds, full of inspiration and creativity in moving the world, are 7s. Like Steve Jobs. And your awareness that you need to be more self aware, is the best kind. This is exactly what I notice opens people's minds the most - the sense that they need to keep their minds open to what is hard for them. I believe this is a wonderful journey, challenging yourself.
Also, EpicEntity is a very 7ish name =D
My father is a 7w8. He's an amazing person, very focused, but he also loves taking in new information and thinking about humanity. He is NiFe II-I. I believe his ego is Se and he fits the themes of 'newness and variety' better than I do.
@Ivory pointed out on another thread here, that there is a lot of 5 in the Ti description. My worry also is that this is beyond 'ego' and rather that the current descriptions are putting Pe leads as "7s" and Ji leads as "5s," when this is not the case per se. It makes sense that 7s like my father (Ni lead) or @Shelley-Lorraine (NeFi) would be into new things and taking on multiple interests. Some sixes have this too - they see many possible directions and don't know which one to pick. @Ivory is a 6 who relates to this aspect of the Pe description. So I am not sold that it's really describing purely Pe, nor am I sold that the Ji descriptions as they stand now, are describing purely Ji. (For the MOST PART, overall, the descriptions are the best ones out there. I can't emphasize this enough. But there are still some parts that I believe are overlapping with enneagram where they shouldn't.)
Ji descriptions show someone honing in on what's meaningful and being very meticulous and obsessive about it. As a 5 fixer, I relate more to THIS aspect of Ji than the Pe descriptions. On the other hand, my 8 fix is very Je-like. It plunges ahead at any cost to actualize something. I'd imagine 8 fixers in general will have developed Je. The point of that type is to consolidate power. Most of the 8 lead celebs who have been typed here are Je lead, though the quadra seems to be irrelevant.
So far, most 4 cores who are celebs or local, have been typed here as SeFi. This was unexpected by many amateurs, but to those of us who have really dug into the meaning of enneagram, it makes perfect sense. The popular and fraudulent descriptions of low-key, lazy melancholic 4s staring out the window is actually describing a certain variety of 9 (though not all 9s). Riso and Hudson wrote the descriptions that are popular online, but Don Riso is an obvious 9 who mistyped at 4. (We can discuss this on my forum if you'd like but it's too off-topic to explain here.) In truth, this melancholic person in their book is more likely to be a 5 or a 9 than to be a 4. Fours are reactive, which means that most tritypes (aside from 459 for example) will have high energy, especially when it comes to expressing themselves. And fours have an immediate, sensual relationship with the arts and their feelings. There's no other step (like Ji or any judgment) stopping the constant flow of aesthetics straight into the art of the four. Of course, I'm sure there are other CT's that are possible for four leads, but I think a lot of people mistake Fi (intense self-obsession and idealism) for four. In truth, four is reactive and melodramatic, with no filter when it comes to the emotions on their face which express what's inside. For the 4, the world is a symbolic expression of their inner drama or a stage to act out that drama; for the 7, the world is their oyster, to discover, indulge, and entertain. Fours may be expressive of what is going on in their interior world- their opinions, passions, and feelings - but seven is the true archetypal entertainer, rockstar, and creative.
Here's an interesting nuance: Tori Amos, often mistyped as 4 lead, is an Sx/So 749. She does share her inner world on stage - but she is always smiling and playing the songs differently each time, humping the piano gluttonously and grinning maniacally. She is FiSe IIII. A four, even SeFi, would be much more precise - getting the performance to mirror their insides perfectly. They would not just wildly improvise with full confidence, changing the emotions and rhythms each time, the way a 7 would. If you compare Lorde (4w3 SeFi) to Tori Amos (7w6 FiSe), Tori is much more exploratory and wild. I fucking love TORI! =D But this is my objection to Se "explorer" vs Ji "art aligned with interior expression." These line up better with enneagrams than with CT's. Perhaps development levels account for it, however.
Anyway, I mistook some of this four 'exciting drama' for a 7 or 6 fix in myself, but actually the 5 balances me in a more realistic way and explains my very picky and single-minded fixation on mastering 'just one thing' at the exclusion of others. Not to mention that I am happy to never leave the house and prefer working intensely on my projects. That type of focus would not come with 478 -- those are constantly moving people. Milo Yiannopolus is a 468, with 6w7 -- much closer to this archetype. (Note: he may be 478.. I'm mulling it over. We spent a really long time on his typing but the 6 and 7 head-area are both loud.)
Just thinking some thoughts
I'd say cogitivetype is great for tracking style of behavior (neurology)
I'd say enneagram is great for tracking motive of behavior (psychology) also the modulating of function development.
E5 not wanting to be incompetent again, lives for the many layers of complexity that can be understood, seeing for what is, digging for buried tunnels, finding secret doors
E6 not wanting for things to fall apart again, foreseeing trouble, seeing what might be, destroying tunnels, locking doors
E7 not wanting to miss out again, seeing what can be, unclogging tunnels, opening doors
Rather than closing a door a 7 might open a bigger adjacent door. Focus through heighten elation
Rather than opening a door a 6 may close several doors and leave a few targeted doors open. Focus through elimination
I'm a sp/sx (far from social) 7 4 1. My mind is what moves around. If my body is on the move that means my mind is on hyperdrive. That doesn't necessarily mean I need to step outside my HQ. As an Sp Walt Disney what hell I am I going to do outside? Not to climb a Mountain that's for sure. I don't mean anything serious by this... I'm just giving you crap.
May update more to this in the future!
Update 1 @animal I thought you made for a great example of what 487 might look like no joking!
Haha. @EpicEntity I don't see it as crap, it reads like an interesting and good post to me, even though there are a few minor corrections I'd make, like how you worded six, but I'm too tired to word it properly now. But basically I think you're making the same point I'm making? Or if not, at least I can say I agree with you. Motives and personal preferences are not Cognitive Types, but Enneagram types - that has been my stance and my argument the whole time.