"Art" is not related to Ji nor "Variety" to Pe.

Home Forums Model 1 Discussions "Art" is not related to Ji nor "Variety" to Pe.

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  • #17940
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Ji leads - by necessity - have a certain perfectionism. To use an example @Ivory and I just discussed, he is slower but more perfectionistic than others at work. He may wash dishes or sweep more slowly than his coworkers, but the payoff is the floor and dishes are cleaner in the end. However, he does not see this as art.
    Any type can be an artist, though it seems most common for Pe.  I have been editing my book for 10 years and spend all my time either doing that or writing on typology forums, which helps me improve my writing, and the subject matter helps with characters. My book also has political topics so I look into those trends irl. I try to have a strong realistic backing in my art, so that I'm finding true meaning, core principles and realistic 'motion' of things - as well as refining and refining and refining the product ad nauseum.  But I sweep or wash dishes pretty quickly if it's pragmatic to do so.
    Many Ji leads I have known have been jacks of many trades, obsessed with the idea of adventure, craving newness and afraid to be tied down. Many Pe leads I've known have hooked into one interest at a young age and could not see themselves doing anything else.
    Pe, by necessity, is opportunistic - but if the Pe lead wants to do 'just one thing,' they will find opportunities to pursue that thing. They can still be discerning about which opportunities are worth taking. For example I saw typology as an opportunity to expand my writing. I sought out the best forums and smartest people on each forum easily, but then put in years of research myself. Whereas with Ji, they are often the 'smartest people' on said forums, but their ideas will hide in a closet if someone like me doesn't push them to share. The difference is that Ji may view their idea as 'unfinished' or 'imperfect' whereas Pe naturally views everything as a flow, including the flow of information. The idea will refine itself if we put it out there. Truth will come to light as a process over time. Whereas Ji is more inclined to refine and perfect it from the get-go.  Fundamentally, Pe and Pi operate on "pattern recognition" while Ji and Je are chiselers.
    This has nothing to do with one type preferring variety of interests nor the other being more inclined toward the arts. It's a shape, a rhythm of how thoughts form. It's not about preferences in how you select interests.  That being said, if one type must be associated with the classical 'artistic temperament,' it would be PeJi.  Although I personally think many approaches to art constitute 'real art,' common sentiment is that with or without perfectionistic honing of skills, the key to artistic expression is 'tapping into the flow.'  Most quotes about art remind people to 'let go' and not to worry about flaws and perfection, more like Pe.  One is advised to master and refine skills in the background so that when the inspiration comes, it can be captured in real time.  There is definitely Ji sentiment here, but the key focus is 'inspiration.'  Many Pe leads will engage their secondary Ji, whether or not it's fully developed, so that they can add careful shape to their style and capture the moments of inspiration. And this wild, wacky, 'letting go' and 'inspired' person who develops some skill, embodies the classically recognized 'artistic temperament.' This tends to be a very obsessive, addictive process.
    That's my two cents. Anyone, please add your two cents and feel free to disagree, challenge me or just write your own observations. 🙂

    #17961
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Devon you live in an art culture and know a lot of artists and the public sentiments. What do you think? Curious to hear from others too of course =)

    #17974
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    YES. YES. YES.
    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the arts. I'm a serious amateur musician who thought about being a pro at one stage. I enjoy visiting galleries and museums. BUT. The sticking-point when I read Fi profiles online is this over-stating of Fi being desperate to express their inner emotions and feelings via an artistic expression, or "artform", almost writing it as if it's a mandatory part of Fi and if you don't feel this way then you're not a true Fi-lead (or even Aux).
    I see Fi as perfectionism in upholding my subjective values. I see myself as more of a scientist than a creative, and I don't feel like I'm suffocating or dying if I can't express my emotional inner world in some tangible artistic format.
    Instead, I apply that Fi perfectionism in my very non-artistic job. I'm in a scientific para-medical field working with people with disability. I use that perfectionism to work hard, never give-up, and go that extra mile to ensure that everyone gets the best chance of a good quality of life, no matter their circumstance.
    I also see Fi as the driver for "alignment" in subjective values. While everyone has a little voice in their head (their conscience) nagging them if they think or do the "wrong" thing, maybe even after they've executed an action, it's possibly easy to ignore. Whereas for Fi that voice is screaming and cannot be ignored. It's analysing thoughts, and pre-checking actions to ensure purity of alignment with inner subjective belief and subsequent outer expression of said belief. If I ignore that voice, my insides have a meltdown. At times where I've acted contrary to my values, I've ended up having anxiety-attacks, burning-out, and developing mental health problems.
    I'm certainly perfectionistic when I work on my music (classical), but I don't need it be a courier of my personal essence or express my personal emotions. I'm more concerned with doing the most perfect job technically, and interpreting the piece in the most pure way in alignment with the composers intentions, as far as I can intuit.

    #17975
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Thank you for bringing this up. I felt like commenting too but wasn't sure if it was more of a personal problem, I'm glad to see that's not the case.
    Also, interesting enough, out of all the profiles that have been posted so far, the [Pe I-I-] and [JiPe II--] articles are the only ones that explicitly mention art as related to a function/energetics.
    Just to give a small example:

    Yet your consciousness is always geared towards dynamic, creative expression first and foremost, and your qualities as a “doer” are gratifying only insofar as they can help you embody an artistic expression through, and within, your life as a totality.

    I will only make a comment on this profile since I'm a PeJi myself but I think there could be some JiPes who might agree with what I'm going to say aswell:
    Why does one only get gratification as a "doer" when artistic expression is at play? Aren't there tons of samples in the database that share that same development, whose main focus is on business, criticizing media, political commentary, tech/science, etc... that seem perfectly content with doing just that and not producing artistic content at all?
     

    #17976
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @LadyNerdsky You just posted that comment a minute after mine so I didn't see your response hahaha but it's good to see that you illustrated my point! 🙂

    #17977
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @LadyNerdsky
    For me, expressing my inner experience through the arts is life or death. Period. I threw away my whole childhood happily - to practice scales, vocal exercises and writing. I took acting, dancing, singing and piano lessons and got 100% on NYSSMA state exams singing opera in other languages. My perfectionism was that extreme - even though I preferred broadway and rock to opera. I sang gigs every week and made money, and I had a pragmatic future plan. I saved up 10k by the time I was 15 and was recording my personal songs in NYC.  My original work always ended up concentrating on similar themes, which I now call 'Erosia,' my home planet.
    It was nothing like "I considered maybe becoming a professional one day." Never in my life have I felt this was a choice. I envy those who can pour their heart into a job that pays well and also contributes to the good of others. Because for me, anything less than 'bringing Erosia to Earth' would be death to my soul.
    I got very sick at 16 and was left speaking in a whisper for the rest of my life. Nonetheless when I had a slightly healthier period, I sang lead through my whisper to front my band and recorded my first album. I cannot possibly explain how much sacrifice had to go into this. I spent every SECOND of my life maximizing my vocal potential through careful diets, exercise, vacuuming.. it was a science. I also managed, produced, promoted, taught everyone every part, auditioned people, booked, and did any practical thing I needed to uphold the shows. I wrote three full albums with concepts, stories, characters, meanings and details. Some songs came out perfect and others (most) I would refine extensively. It had to match, perfectly, the sentiment in my mind - regardless if that happened overnight or over decades.
    I also wrote books in my early teens. Since I knew I couldn't rely on doing music later on, I turned to writing. I was a horrible writer when it came to words; music was my second language - but I had intense and complex plots, characters and a universe that meant everything to me. So I dedicated my life to whipping myself into shape as a vessel through which they might emerge.
    I've noticed a lot of the Ji people here, even those who are artists, see it as a hobby or a special talent that they can choose to pursue or not. "I decided to be a pro" sounds very practical but I never felt it was a decision.  Either I had to find some mediocre part time job so I could afford rent and still do my art , or I had to strive to make money doing my art. There was no other option.  (Aside from death.). Versatility, variety, open mindedness etc isn't relatable in the slightest. I did not suffer so deeply from the loss of my voice just because I wanted to.  It's because I have tunnel vision, obsession, and a need to complete these works. So when I read that Ji is the refined dedicated artist, and yet I see so many Ji leads doing art 'on the side' - I balk. Expressing Erosia was my life - long before I developed Ji - and I always will be.
    I also agree with @Celeste. For Pe, fulfillment also does not have to come from the arts. I am just one example, and there are many other Pe leads like me that I can list off the top of my head. Trent Reznor, Jeff Martin, Jeff Beck, Lzzy Hale, etc -- people who simply cannot see themselves living and breathing unless they do their music. But of course, many Pe leads find this same obsessive addictive single-minded fulfillment in other fields that aren't artistic. And then, some just don't work that way and prefer versatility. But versatility, open ended options & exploration should not be attributed to Pe, in my opinion. It's more that in pursuing their interests, regardless how consistent or varied those may be, the Pe lead is a fast thinking opportunist.

    #17989
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @celeste Oh snap, yeah we posted virtually simultaneously making the same point. I think perhaps Ji makes an "artform" out of their outlet for expressing their values. We might traditionally define art with respect to music, dance, acting, writing, poetry etc. But other outlets in the external world can just as likely be political rallies, fighting for causes, attempting to effect change in the business world etc. For me, I think the dynamic between lead Fi and conscious polar Te, especially when young, meant an attitude of "what's the point" or "that's not effective" regarding expressing values in musical or artistic formats. It's a lovely sentiment to want to change the world one song at a time, but I think other vehicles are more effective.

    @animal
    I over-simplified my attitude towards pursuing music professionally. Didn't feel that writing a personal essay or resume would contribute much to the crux of the conversation. But honestly, I'm still healing from the hurt of closing that door to my life. It was closed for many complex reasons I don't see much point in outlining, but I resonate with many of the attitudes you wrote about above. Life doesn't work out the way we want, regardless of how hard we try or how much we want it.

    #17990
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @LadyNerdsky
    For me, personal anecdotes are immensely helpful. Type is not some abstract theory - it's something that describes real people with personal, individual stories. Obviously, no pressure to tell your story if you don't want to. But I personally find theoretical, abstract models that are about people fairly useless without seeing how the concepts pan out for real people.  On my forum, we encourage personal sharing to any degree that someone is comfortable with, as it illustrates how this type plays out in reality rather than just discussing distant abstract generalizations. That's just how I work, so my intention is not to "make it about me" but to make my point clear. Like I said, many other Pe lead artists present this way too, but my story is the one I know best.
    Perhaps it's my Se, but I find personal, tangible reality much more graspable than ideology.  So I am sorry if you were offended by the personal anecdote - this has happened to me with JiNe countless times. But my intent was to gain more understanding, and to offer elaboration on my meaning. Trust me, I did not come even close to sharing my 'resume.' It's quite extensive. The idea was not to focus on my accomplishments, but to make the point that long before I developed Ji, my perfectionistic dedication to the arts was made manifest in concrete ways, that met realistic objective standards. (That being said, after reading your reply, I shortened my personal anecdote so it might be more palatable.)
    Everyone and their mother thinks they're an artist these days, but most don't have the stamina to practice perfecting their craft for countless hours each day for decades on end, nor to fight to realize their vision at any cost.  To be a doctor, someone goes to college, then medical school. They accumulate debt, suffer through unbearable hours in residency and then remain dedicated in their work, often living frugally for a long time while they pay back the debts.  Realizing artistic visions requires the same dedication. It's not just some wave of inspiration - it's a life commitment. One which I feel is being belittled when descriptions depict some type as 'artists by nature.' No one is an artist by nature - many have natural talents, but a true artist is someone who dedicates their life to producing art. These days, people consider themselves artists whether or not this is the case, and I guess that's fine, but there is a huge gap between their idea of an 'artist' and mine. For me, the practice of art is a reality - and usually a boring, repetitive, frustrating one which does not reap rewards for a long time.
    I intend to differentiate my lifelong commitment to my vision from 'dabbling for fun,'  'trying a new experiment' or 'getting thrills' as it has been described in the Pe descriptions. For me and the Pe artists I listed, this commitment is not frivolous. But I also feel like, if I don't list concrete examples, people will just roll their eyes at the idea that I am really serious about this, because I've been typed as Pe. And they will not understand the differentiation that I'm making between 'a talented person taking on some projects for a while' and a lifelong, concrete, unrelenting dedication to the arts.  So I hope I made my point clear.
    I would love to hear your story if and only if you feel comfortable telling it, of course. If not, I take your word for what you said, and I am sorry you have gone through that.

    Life doesn’t work out the way we want, regardless of how hard we try or how much we want it.

    This is just not an attitude I'm able to take on. I've been chronically ill for 24 years, so I can say with confidence that I know perfectly well that life "doesn't work out the way we want" - but as long as I am breathing, I will strive to the utmost of my capacity to live my dreams, because I don't feel there is any other point in living. If I really could not live my dreams at all, I would not go on. I'm not saying this to be melodramatic; I don't want to die at all, but I don't see any problem with ending my life rather than living as the undead.  And I'll sacrifice my involvement with absolutely everything else on Earth toward that end.  That's just my personal view on it though. I was put on this Earth with a passion that consumes me and burns me alive - so I believe that passion is my path, and it's up to me to be realistic in carving it so that it's sustainable (ie. getting a job to support my arts if I am physically capable of working, being diligent about caring for my health, etc). No matter what, I find a way to manifest my visions, even if it's not with the budget and speed that I'd want ideally. I don't see myself as an idealist - I am a pragmatist with a vision. As long as I'm breathing that vision will be one step closer to manifesting each day. I resonate strongly with the sentiment, "If you can't fly, run; if you can't run, walk; if you can't walk, crawl. But either way, keep moving forward."  I have been literally unable to walk for portions of my life, so this hits home.  And 'moving forward' means taking any tiny step toward the realization of my visions. Sometimes that step is just taking enough pills to get out of bed in the morning, knowing in my heart that when I am capable, I will continue where I left off.  But that is not the same as giving up.

    #18035
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Omg wow so much so fast! I'm sorry I haven't read everything above yet, but I've grateful for this conversation. Also I'm glad you guys are not "staying quiet" or anything, since the whole point of these first 5 drafts was to hash out details like this.
    So, to clarify something first, I agree that Pe is the function more associated with creative expression, and not Ji. You can see this in the Pe profile here, under "Generative Ability", as well as in the color-coated breakdowns of the profiles. All the things related to creative expression are color-coated blue, which is Pe.
    Now, to explain my process so far.. I took a look at all of our Ji ll-- samples and saw this:

    Bjork Singer, Songwriter
    Gabrielle Meyerowitz Painter
    Holly Henry Singer, Songwriter
    Janet Jackson Singer, Songwriter
    Megan Fox Actress
    Miranda Kerr Fashion Model
    Natalie Portman Actress
    Olimpia ? ? ?
    Alyssa ? ? ?
    Jamie Chung Actress
    Kilian ? ? ?
    Margot Robbie Actress
    Mia Wasikowska Actress
    Skylar Grey Singer, Songwriter
    Ashley Olsen Fashion Designer
    Becks ? ? ?
    Bella ? ? ?
    Chris Corner Singer, Songwriter
    Erutan Musician, Singer, Songwriter
    Gage ? ? ?
    Kiyarii Dancer
    Nadia Dance Instrunctor
    Ciscandra Nostalghia Singer, Songwriter
    Claire Wright ? ? ?
    Kailia Typologist Youtuber
    Kimberly Beswick Singer, Songwriter
    LadyNerdSky ? ? ?
    Meredith Godreau Singer, Songwriter
    Pine ? ? ?
    Randall Munroe Comic Book Illustrator
    Selena ? ? ?
    Zoe Kaiser ? ? ?

    Admittedly I don't know everyone's careers, so I didn't factor in many of the individual samples we have from typology. That might have been a mistake. But in the public sector, it seems like, almost with no exception, the Ji-leads with Pe conscious are creatives, working either as musicians, singers, songwriters, painters, actresses or fashion designers/models.
    The trend was overwhelming and unanimous, at least from those that I did get to measure. And the "message" to the artistry seemed to be the same. Erutan, Chris Corner, Bjork, Gabrielle Meyerowitz, they all focus in delivering an essentialist Ji message through a Pe medium.
    I will come back to this thread later (on my way out the door), but just wanted to share this little bit, and some of why I chose to word the Ji ll-- profile the way I did. 🙂 As for the Pe l-l- profile, yeah, I gotta agree that it's not always artistic, sometimes it is just business/etc. I gotta edit that part somehow too.

    #18036
    Ninth
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    I didn’t read everything because *information overload*, I’ll catch up later.
    Came here to say that I don’t really care about Arts (Artistic Interest score on the B5: extremely low) and I don’t even wish to find and/or master a way to express myself (I’m actually learning to be a bit more expressive for the sake of social relationships).
    I used to paint, tried to play instruments, etc; for me, it was all about “technique” - I wanted to be able to do those things, simply because. I’ve always claimed, indeed, that «I’m no artist»; never been.
    Anyways, the perfectionistic side is spot on.
    I’ve seen perfectionism, especially in his writings but also in his studies, in @CandyDrinker, and he’s Pe+Je.
    From what I observed, the difference is: I experience a tendency towards perfectionism 24/7 in my head (no shades of obsessiveness) and I need to make a deliberate judgment to divert from there.

    #18037
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn
    Makes sense. I like real data 😀
    My last post was probably most important when it comes to my meaning, especially the content following the third paragraph, "Everyone and their mother thinks they're an artist." Bottom line: to call yourself a doctor or a scientist, you go through years of schooling, work with clients and get employed in a field. One can be an expert without school and certificates, but no one would call themselves a 'physicist' lightly in this scenario, unless they spend their whole life studying physics and putting it to use. Likewise, there is a difference between those who indulge the arts when the inspiration strikes vs. those who spend countless hours over several decades mastering a craft and manifesting a vision.  These categories are not the same.  Most wouldn't dare point this out - people get self righteous and start defending their artist status - yet in any other field, the differentiation between 'inspiration' and 'perspiration' is obvious.  If the categorization 'artist' was not thrown around so frivolously, it would be obvious then that no 'type' is naturally an artist - because like every other field, becoming an artist requires work. No one is born as an expert in anything, not even art.
    I woke up with this thought in my head for clarification.
    1. "What is an artist?"

    • Some say an artist is someone who makes art, even if only sporadically or for a hobby.
    • Some say there's an art to seduction, negotiating, socializing and living. Everyone is an artist (which renders the term meaningless).
    • Some say an artist is someone who masters a craft, regardless if the work they take on is original.
    • Some say an artist is someone who lives and breathes their art, who dedicates their entire life their craft and their visions no matter what else gets in the way. No sacrifice is too great to fulfill this calling.

    (Regardless how we choose to define artist, I am the latter, always have been and always will be.)
    2. What is artistic temperament?

    • Some would go by the artists archetype, which is purely Pe. If you look up the archetype of an artist on any website, like Michael's archetypes or Jung's creator archetype - you will see a description of a scattered inspired person who is too Pe for their own good. But they live to capture inspiration.

    (I don't relate to this archetype for the sheer reason that I'm too dedicated and committed as a person to fit this scatterbrained or oversensitive style. It may apply more often to the many enneagram 7 Pe's in the world. But it is Pe.)

    • Some would say it's the romantic who finds the beauty in the world and taps into its rhythm, who feels the heartbeat in the wind and feels the meaning of colors and elements in their bones. Someone who hears the crisp fall of snow and dances to the music, or hears an orchestra forming around it and runs home to write the rest of the song. Whose every emotion can be translated to colors and shapes, who doesn't need a human love interest to feel  romantic toward life itself. And this trope would have a deeply animistic and symbolic relationship with the environment and a natural attunement to aesthetics, which contributes to the sensory aspects of arts.

    (Different types might fit romanticism, but what I'm describing is potentially a shade of SeFi. I say this because the sensual flow of Se fuels an ever expanding world view  (Ni) so that the elements link to a symbolic way of mapping the inner emotions (Fi) and navigating everything in the world. This experience of flow and meaning bleeds into my work in every medium. "So carnal it's spiritual." Refining my skills to  explore and express  its meaning requires dedication, but the presence of romanticism in everything I do is automatic. That deep passionate relationship with the world is why my home planet is Erosia.)

    • Some would say it's the perfectionist that strains their fingers painting, empties their desperate soul into writing, someone who needs this process like oxygen. I know people of all types who fit this profile, but again it seems most common to PeJi and JiPe. Theres a striving perfectionist here. Someone absolutely and desperately, obsessively dedicated to getting it right, getting their vision out there, refining their craft.

    (I relate to this trope fully.)
    I don't think it's right to say all JiSe II are like this last profile. Ivory does not have the patience for this refined picky process, except when the inspiration happens upon him. He always says as a kid he just wanted to play. He has very refined thoughts moment to moment, but minimal frustration tolerance because his perfectionism is so great that he gets tired from overthinking each step of his life. So despite a lot of natural talent, he never dedicated himself to the arts, as he would prefer to spend his free time unwinding and exploring topics that interest him in the moment.
    The JiSe II descriptions account for serious dedicated artists, such as Jared Leto, who clearly will sacrifice everything to actualize his visions at any cost.  Yet I am like this too, but for Pe leads, there's no room for this.  While Pe descriptions account for the thrill of inspiration and the wild creator archetype, they preclude laborious commitment due to the emphasis on variety and new things. This trivializes the lifelong dedication that some Pe leads have to mastering one thing, even when it isn't fun. Art can be a grueling, boring, repetitive process, 99% perspiration- and many Pe leads, including myself, obsessively and obstinately dedicate themselves to this process with minimal immediate payback in the hopes of realizing a vision. Spreading oneself thin between multiple interests would not reap the kind of results that you get from Trent Reznor or Jeff Beck.
    There may be more tropes but I listed the ones I hear about most. It seems to me that a small percentage of the population actually puts in their ten thousand hours of laborious refinement in the arts and commits to it seriously over the course of decades, so it should not be the leading crux of a description. It also seems if JiSe II has an artists shade, some of the Pe types should also have an artists shade, since this matches reality. Given my level of absolute lifelong dedication and commitment and slaving over my craft, and seeing Trent Reznor's level of refinement with no J development at all, I am confused why "variety and taking on tons of new interests" is considered so integral to the Se lead mind. Maybe it's a Ne thing, the need to spread out, but there are too many exceptions among Se leads for this to be a rule.

    #18064
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I seem to fall squarely into the artist shade of JiPe ll-- that Auburn describes, and you can count me as another singer-songwriter.
    I think we should take a look and see where our egos lie within our personalities. For me, with my ego almost certainly in Se, it's easy to see that most of what Auburn has outlined is true. I can't help but create art, and I find that kind of expression necessary to my mental health. If I didn't create even just meaningless doodles, I would feel stuck, and I would get bummed out and anxious. They don't have to be perfect, I just have to express myself somehow (cue that Madonna song). It could be a night of dancing at the gay club to express my identity, or it could be just a couple sentences in my journal at the end of the day. That externalization of my interior emotional state just has to happen, and it usually happens through Se activities.
    So let's take a look and analyse where our ego lies, as opposed to what we lead with. I think the underlying trend that Auburn has caught on to has begun to very accurately describe something completely non-tangible, and I dont think it's ever as simple as Se users liking variety and Ji users being emotional creatives. The nuances implied within the very structure of the types themselves can give us much more information about the functions within them.

    #18066
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Alice
    I agree with you, I'm just not seeing my kind of "artistry" being accounted for in the Se descriptions regardless of ego. I type as Ni ego with very good reason, and I've thought about it extensively, but my ego isn't Fi. It's more about the timeless and eternal map of meaning, for me, than it is about the ethics of refinement, although that takes nothing away from my absolute and relentless dedication to making my vision manifest. I also personally don't get much from dancing at a club nor do I crave expressing my immediate feelings to people in person - I need to work on constant concrete projects and on the rare occasions when I go out, I often wish I was at home working. That's just me though. Self expression is a natural way of life for me, but I require something more to really feel alive. I have spent countless hours each day for the past decade editing my book, and before that, I dedicated that type of time commitment to making my music manifest. I see 'an expressive way of life' and a 'relentless dedication to mastery' as two different things. Inspiration vs. perspiration, to put it simply.

    #18080
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Hi, I'll try to address a few of these points in bits.

    I agree with you, I’m just not seeing my kind of “artistry” being accounted for in the Se descriptions regardless of ego.

    Well, as I think I've said before, the Se description isn't where you'd find this. The sort of thing you're describing is J-heaviness, not Pe proper. There's no way this would fit into the Se profile.

    It seems to me that a small percentage of the population actually puts in their ten thousand hours of laborious refinement in the arts and commits to it seriously over the course of decades.

    I think there is distinction to be made here. The amount of time a person spends on a craft (you mention Trent Reznor, Jeff Beck as examples of mastery, when they're Pe l--l) can depend on a variety of factors. A person can fill up those 10k hours, assuming we go by that formula, without the sort of conscientiousness and dutifulness that you're describing.
    For example, as a child I spent thousands of hours playing video games, and I even pioneered some methods for hacking into places the developers did not intend players to go. But none of this was driven by "willpower",  nor by "perspiration" or arduous labor. Inspiration, passion, intrude and things like that -- are fully capable of guiding a person to spend 10k hours on a craft, and become masterful at it, without the sort of Je conscientiousness you describe being a necessary factor. This is why, I believe, Pe l--l types can produce fine works just like anyone else.
    "Working hard" by itself is an insufficient category here. It depends on what we mean by working hard. If working hard means doing things that are uncomfortable, uninspiring, a grind, tedious, laborious, unpleasant in the moment -- but a person does them anyway because they have a long-term pay off in mind -- this is wholly Je territory. I think of Jordan Peterson with this sort of philosophy.
    Now, if a person "works hard" at something but finds it inspiring, rewarding, fluid and stimulating all along the way (or most of the way), this can be due to Pe on its own. And this is because Pe is real-time and it doesn't know the future, or can't account for it. The refresh factor makes it so Pe, by itself, as a function, has to take the most optimal action "right now." So this is why Pe is diametrically opposed to "time" (the dimension of Pi; temperance, the long-haul).
    I've not seen a trend of Pe-leads be into "the grind" if they did not have heavy J development. And this is consistent with the model so far. So there just isn't a "place" for this in Pe proper. This is an emergent effect of Pe alongside a J function, or two.
    Animal, I realize you feel like you're not represented, but I truly do have to keep emphasizing that the solution is not to embed Je elements into Pe -- because that's not what the evidence shows. The solution is to create proper descriptions of what happens when Pe operates in conjunction with Je and/or Ji, and have that alter the emergent reality of a person's psychology.

    #18083
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn
    That makes sense that it's Je, especially if I've had it all my life. I'm not sure I can wrap my mind around Trent Reznor not being dedicated for a long term payoff, as it is contrary to the biographies, interviews and other information that I've taken in about him over the years, but maybe you are right. I will put careful thought into that and percolate for a while because this is an interesting point. I'll see if I can reap any direct quotes from him or just watch a bunch of his interviews and seek some evidence of a pattern where things just come to him and he doesn't see it as labor. This may be true and maybe I picked up something else due to my own bias. But Trent Reznor is a top producer, not just a singer-songwriter.  (Have you heard his music?) To compare Trent Reznor, a top world producer, to video game playing - you may have to compare him to the top groundbreaking gamers who make great money and professions out of it. =D
    I do feel that I'm accounted for quite well in PeJe, although my core attention goes to this deep meaningfulness that I've talked about so much.  So even if the 'hard work for a future payoff' that I relate to in Jared Leto or Jordan Peterson is Je, I guess I'm wondering why the arts and the endless expression of meaning therein? This did not suddenly spring up when my Ji developed.   I do agree strongly that I'm not meticulous in day to day life like them. I am not, by any means, trying to say that I'm mistyped .  I'm just suggesting that there should perhaps be a SHADE of SeFi which accounts for this (and I do think the groundwork for that 'romantic flow with nature' is embedded in your Se profile, especially the update) --- and perhaps that Ji II artist SHADE is  important to have, but not to focus on art as a crux of Ji II-dom.

    #18093
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    When I was first typed as NeFi, the one thing that immediately clicked for me was the variety aspect. Perhaps that's my enneagram flavoring my typing. But I *want* so badly to have a more narrow focus. I go into everything thinking "this is it, this is my calling." I want that sense of purpose. I just haven't found it. I love many things and I lament that I don't feel like I was born for something specific long-term. In the moment, my interest is very much my passion. Everything I do has to be an expression of my essence. As soon as it no longer feels that way, I can't just stick to the grind and finish as a matter of principle. My soul is all in or it's not.
    It has become a spiritual endeavor for me now, to pursue something thoroughly and deeply long-term. I never thought I would get on board the recently trending "depth year" train, but here I am. I'm trying to power through those moments when I question if what I am doing is what I really want, when I fret over doors I may be closing in the process, opportunities lost... I'm trying to reframe my singular experience into it's own  buffet of opportunities waiting to be discovered. So far, so good!
    This leaves the question of my Je. You said, @Auburn, that it seems my Te is not as strong in my most recent video. However, you also noted that it wasn't strong in some of my much older videos as well. My most recent video could just as well be voluntary modulation as my older ones. I don't feel like I had more Te in the past and suddenly don't now. I question my Te when I see Je in the context of grandiose achievements. On a small scale, though, I think I have a decently functional use of it. The things I actually accomplish I tend to down play or not even notice at all because they don't stand out as grandiose. For example, I have been dedicated to fitness for sometime, barring a few lulls here in there in my commitment, and have finally progressed to advanced in a few of my lifting categories. Is this Je or is it pure passion? It's important to me, it's integral to my spirituality, but I don't see it as my life's purpose. It's possibly related to Fi purity and alignment - my body is a temple and I must treat it as one. I'm not sure, however, that I see it as a passion as I might other endeavors.  Everything I do needs to feel spiritually significant. I can't power through the nitty gritty otherwise. But sometimes spiritually significant is about purity and morals more than pure passion.. so is it Je or isn't it?

    #18094
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Sidebar on observing trends. I think the most accurate assessment of what Ji-leads (and this applies to other functions) are into will come from diving into trends in the volunteer database, and not by analysing how various JiPe celebrities or figures came into the public consciousness. Problem is, we're far more likely to find YouTube interviews with actors, musicians, and singer-songwriters than accountants, scientists or researchers. There might be a trend within the JiPe's that are singer-songwriters for example. They might tend towards writing similar thematic music.
    But focusing on YouTube as a source ignores data from every other JiPe who doesn't have a career or area of focus that would thrust them into the spotlight, or be so popular on YouTube that they're in the first page of results in search.
    For example, here's a YouTube playlist of two-minute interviews with 130+ medical professionals (many in my field of expertise). Lucky if any have 1000 views, and none are household names, but it might be a rich source for analysing https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRGEsZTjjo8mJFYrC_CsXoIgXzoYFBnxH

    #18095
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    One thing I can say with certainty is that Trent Reznor is just as offended by the birage of low-quality, half-assed work as I am. Many of his quotes, just from a quick google search can show his disgust with everyone thinking they're an artist and the dumbing down of quality, just like how I feel.  I have read biographies and watched countless interviews about him coming from himself and others talking about him. The lack of quality out there is demoralizing for him.



    Obviously, it's important to him that someone achieve something before arbitrarily throwing their opinion around about art. Much like me, he differentiates between the 'real achievers' and the people who he sees as 'products of a cheap culture.'
    And here's something about his own process.

    This quote is in line with your idea that due to a lack of J development he just coasted by and didn't have discipline.... at least at one time in his life.  But then he 'realized' and he got to work on NIN, which caused him to change his approach, and that is why his music sounds the way it does. During many years of his life he admitted to having no life outside of NIN.

     
    This is just what came up on a quick google search. As I said, I know more about him and will dig deeper, but I wanted to show what I mean. He clearly has a divide in his mind between quality work and who is 'allowed' to comment, vs those who never achieved anything and have no place talking about this, but their voices are cheered on by a low-quality media culture where everything is given equal value.  (I've seen him talk about this a lot.) He also acknowledges that he has major addiction issues and that at certain times in his life he was coasting, but NIN required absolute discipline and dedication, to the point he had no other life.
    I will find more material and add to this later.

    #18096
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    SORRY, my last response, I was working on it before I saw the new posts! *reads up*

    #18097
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @LadyNerdsky A few points on your post.
    I totally agree that it's good to really listen to the people who are actually here, which is why I offered so much about my personal story and invited others to do the same. On the other hand, what kind of people end up here? Not everyone would gravitate to typology or to forum culture. Artistic, philosophical or sciency types would be likely to do so more than the average population, I'd imagine.  Many Te people who have been typed here have simply gotten their type, said hello and never posted again. (It's inefficient use of time.)
    I bring up Trent Reznor because he's an artist I know a lot about and it offers a contrast with another dev level. I was a VERY serious artist to the point that I never even knew what a forum was until I was 32.   I never watched TV or played video games AT ALL.  For me to end up here required very very serious illness and also a strong reason, tying into my goals. But my lifestyle in general, when I'm even remotely healthy, is really is not comparable to most people I've met on forums.  So to make my point and draw comparisons I have to use other types of people.
    I never bring up artists that I hardly know. The few I love, I've done a lot of research into them.
    Love the idea of looking at medical professionals. That is a really good way to get some diversity going.
     

    @Shelley-Lorraine

    I have often wondered if there's a difference  between Ne and Se when it comes to a need for variety, even if both are the same dev level. No idea; I don't have enough data - but just bringing it up for consideration.
     
     

    #18107
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Still trying to keep up with this thread, so I'll try to bullet point a few key things (?)
    @LadyNerdSky - Totally agree with your point, and thank you for the resource! I'd like to take a good look at it, and I've been looking for something like this.
    Also, I guess just as a counter-point to your valid point (which you've probably already thought about but...) it's also not statistically insignificant that Ji ll-- types are so highly represented in these creative fields. There's a statistical bias indeed, but for example, if we look at all the musicians/songwriters/singers in the public sector, I think you'd get something like 90% revisers, 10% conductors.
    So while the context of "fame" does narrow the demographic scope into a niche, the data is still telling of something. Even statistics about people in fame, are statistics. If nothing else, the database of public figures acts as a sort of "filter" for the results of the winners within a domain of high selection pressure.
    It's a bit how 90%+ of people in prison are male, because prison is for the winners of the "most antisocial behavior awards." But it doesn't mean that 90%+ of men are more aggressive than women. It's just that the effect is magnified at the extremes.
    I think we are seeing this same effect in cognitive type. So, some roughly ~90% of famous artists/musicians/songwriters/singers are Ji+Pe types, but that doesn't mean that 90% of reviser types are artists/musicians/songwriters/singers. We can say the same about other public sector categories. For example, the database shows over 50% of political news anchors in America are Te-leads, and something like 80%(?) are Je-leads when Fe and Te are combined. But that doesn't mean 50% of Te-leads are news anchors, of course. Statistics are always a curious set of nuances.
    Still, it's amazing that vultology can produce such strong statistical aggregates, and do so consistently, even in the public sector. I remember we had this wow-moment in Discord when we took a look at famous rappers, and found an overwhelming preponderance of Se-leads. That's very affirming of the model, but if you wrote a personalize profile for the average Se-lead and it said they're most likely to be a rapper, that would be a misapplication of the statistic, wouldn't it. Even if 90% of famous rappers are Se-lead, it may only be 5% of Se-leads that are rappers or have a hobby in that field. Rinse and repeat for every other type.
    (This is quite a conundrum. I think CT is exponentially harder to apply to the average person.)

    #18109
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn
    That's why despite my own willpower I never resisted the idea that Se heavies are prone to drug addiction. Other types can be addicted too, and not ALL Se leads will be prone to it - but I've lived in the real world enough to know who is dying of drug addiction and who isn't, unfortunately. Se types seem disproportionately common here.

    #18111
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Sorry I didn't sleep 🙁 so my posts are a bit scattered. But just thinking about this for a few minutes, Ji leads are often very shy. @Ivory has a lot of talents and ideas but there's just no way he would put them out there on youtube.  Whereas Pe leads often just go on youtube with ideas nowhere NEAR as refined as his, and run their mouth. But they are charismatic so they get views.
    Ji leads would be more likely to require a real REASON to post videos, I think?  Correct me if this seems off, but I am theorizing that there may be a disproportionate amount of Ji artists because other Ji types simply don't put themselves out there. Before he met me, @Ivory didn't involve himself with people even on typology communities; he just read the posts and kept his thoughts to himself. I've known other (very likely) Ji's like this throughout my life. So due to the things holding them back, it may be that the artists are the only one finding the need to make a public statement?

    #18112
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @shelley-lorraine - I have a few other people sending me new videos, now that the dev levels have begun to mature into a better psychological and vultological place. I'd love to see another one of you. Yes, I remember Te was not very strong in you even at the start, but it also wasn't wholly missing. But we've since gotten much better at identifying the thresholds in function consciousness.
    And I say "thresholds" because, as you know, there's the fact that the binary component of "conscious/unconscious" is a simplification for our convenience. I used a metaphor for EpicEntity recently, where I said that, in an ideal world, we could calculate function strength on a more granular scale such as:
    Ne - 0000000000
    Fi - 000000
    Te - 0000
    Si - 00
    ^ In such as view, we may need to decide whether the "threshold" should be at 4 circles or 5, for example. We might say that if a function crosses over 4, it's counted as conscious. This is not entirely an arbitrary question, though. I think there is an objective answer, and I think that answer would be relate to at what point we see the psychological manifestations of the energetic abilities come into full prominence.
    Anyhow, this is just a metaphor with made up data to illustrate a point. But I use it to suggest that it may be that you've been counted among the Te conscious since you've had 4 Te circles, whereas perhaps it's really 5 circles that is the threshold point at which the Je energetic attributes rise into full view. As we learn more about these thresholds, I hope we can refine our accuracy.
    We seem to be doing that as we speak, with threads like this.

    #18116
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Now moving onto @ivory , Animal indeed I would reiterate that Ji proper is not about artistry. It is the Ji+Pe profile that mentioned art, but if you look at the Ji l--- profile, you'll see something more similar to what you're describing with the perfectionism. The Ji l--- profile has that element of not wanting to share without having a "reason" to put oneself out there. Tending not to create, because the person is much more of a "chiseler" than a creative. So we're totally not in any disagreement here. Pe is more likely to produce. Ji is more likely to whittle away. Ji by itself doesn't produce because there's little to whittle away at, to begin with. So Ji by itself never outputs much.
    Also if I misused the word "artistic" here, I apologize. From my end I felt as though I added plenty of artistic components to all the Pe profiles so far, and Ji ll-- by extension of having Pe conscious, not because it's a Ji feature. Even if I didn't use the word "art" in each Pe profile, the essence of it is there. For example, I consider "creative expression", "creative flow" and so on... to be synonymous with art here. So I feel as though the protest that "Art is not related to Ji" is not something I am arguing against. The profiles with the blue color-coated sections clearly delineate that the artistic components are attributed to Pe. And this would go for Ivory as well. Insofar as he has artistic creative flow, it relates to his interplay with Pe, not because he has more access to it via Ji.
    Which brings me to the next point -- of what may be happening in Ivory. @ivory I found it very interesting that you related to this section:

    But this ideal state is not always easy to attain and requires being sensitively primed for it. Moments of stress or lack of clarity lead to a paralysis and blocking of flow.

    I have @nadia to thank for that sentence above, as I did an interview with her where she expressed this very thing. She said she loves flowing, and it feels like her best self, but it's not always there.
    When you said you related to this, I felt it was representative of the struggle involved with how you don't feel as artistic or fluid as Animal (as one anecdote) or in general. What this says to me is that, perhaps, you are a Ji ll-- under stress, in a rather chronic/constant manner, and that makes it so you don't experience that unblocked flow as much as you could. In other words, it would seem as though you modulate back to a more Ji l--- sort of state, perhaps often, due to ...as you put it: "It’s a hard knock life."

    Another option might be that you may be closer to Ji l--- than to Ji ll-- as your "baseline." But in either case, I think your case seems explicable within the known information we have. Your lack of artistry is not atypical for Ji, especially under stress.
    Also, I deeply value your feedback and, with all this said, I do think I still will have to adjust the language of the Ji ll-- profile to move it a bit towards a more neutral baseline, regarding "art" as a specifically named topic. There are other domains besides art which Ji ll-- may fall into. 🙂 And the Ji ll-- profile was written with too much of a focus on that, due to the celebrity demographic.

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