Type & Disorders

[Rua]

I always find the Flat Affect samples you include at the end quite fascinating; I think you already made the key distinction in terms of distinguishing mania/hypomania from double extroverted energy (which often appears manic at a surface level, but which can usually be easily distinguished based on a dynamic of incoherence vs. coherence), which is that the things that Camille Paglia chooses to talk and write about with such passion and not infrequent vitriol, are at the very least sensible and follow trains of thought that she can explain the reasoning of and expand upon intelligibly when asked. Whereas with the clip of Charlie Sheen above, he does at least possess the honesty to say that he is simply stating things from his own perspective, and doesn't care if it makes sense to anyone else or not, or how it affects them (which he then proceeds to directly contradict by claiming he does things for the benefit of an audience, which is an excellent encapsulation of manic incoherence). The hallmark of a truly disruptive manic episode is that the affected no longer cares about anything but continuing the "mania train"; all externalities and consequences except those in the manic field of view are either totally ignored when brought up by someone else, or interpreted only as evidence of personal ill-will against the manic individual and his or her grand aims.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

@rondo - that's a very interesting encapsulation-- which seems to expand more on my tentative observation!
Perhaps this is an example of where CT has potential to inform us as a psychoanalytical tool, because we might hypothesize that mania/hypomania is more common as a pathway of health degradation for double-extroverted types (or just extroverted types), while double-introverted types (or just introverted types) may have a different path of health degradation.
I made brief note of some rough psychological patterns I had started to see, clustering around certain lead-types, at the bottom of this article:

• Pe: Attention Disorders (ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder, Dyslexia)
• Pi: Paranoid Disorders (Paranoid Personality Disorder, Anxiety)
• Ji: Depression (Avoidant Personality Disorder, Anorexia/Cutting, Chronic Depression)
• Je: Aggression (Mania, Sociopathy, Narcissistic Personality Disorder)

I wonder what you think? Curious as to your thoughts.
 

[Rua]

@auburn - all of those look like perfectly sensible correlations to me; I'm afraid I don't have much to add in those specific capacities.
Perhaps this is too niche of a subject for you to have any tentative correlations on, but I am very curious if CT influences the specific manifestations of schizophrenia. As both are posited as genetic, and as both contain a mental schema that is "hardwired" into the brain, I do wonder whether it is reasonable to think the two could be interrelated in some way; in much the same way as your correlations above, I do wonder whether high-Pi individuals would tend more heavily towards paranoid manifestations of schizophrenia as opposed to high-Pe individuals tending more towards hebephrenic expressions of the disorder. High-Ji might then be associated with catatonic schizophrenia.
On another note, I would ask if you have any tentative data trends you'd be willing to share regarding feelings of anger or resentment and the suppression of the J-axis (whether Ji, Je, or both), as this seems to be something that I am picking up anecdotally as a trend.
Edit: If you have any clarifying thoughts on the meaning behind your use of the phrase "uncompressed consciousness" as relating to E functions I would love to hear it. That phrase has been rattling around in my brain since I read it but I'm still uncertain as to its meaning.

[sekundaer]

I think that compulsive personality disorder must belong somewhere in the J segment, there is a lot in the description of Te behaviorism that correspond to to this, eg. affinity for order, structure, militant and unrelenting attitude, overly controlled home environment,  conscientiousness.
Ti would tend towards schizoid personality, if unhealthy.
I think it interesting that one of the earliest authors of the enneagram system as it is used today (before this it was not a system of personalities) was a psychiatrist.  I have a book by him: Character and Neurosis. I tend to think that he constructed the formulations of the types on psychiatric diagnosis.  In some way getting typed as an enneagram type is like getting a diagnosis, its just (usually) in the normal range, where as if it gets out of that range, it becomes a psychiatic diagnosis, but still in the category of the type.  Type one will have compulsive disorder.  Type 5 correspond to schizoid personality, like I guess Ti does.  Type 3 narcissistic like Je, but I am not sure that mania belongs here?  But that is just from a logic deduction -  Pe corresponds to a sanguine temperament, there is this interest in new experiences, if one wants to explore new territories to an excess, it becomes manic.   BTW,  Type 7 is the enneatype that corresponds to mania (although some say narcissistic)   Some of the combinations between enneatype and diagnosis seems a bit arbitrary to me,  also because of the disagreements.  But I mention it because it could be food for thought.  As an example type 9 is supposed to disintegrate into dissociative disorders,  which I think is mere speculation.
Rondo - interesting correlations with forms of schizophrenia.  It sounds plausible to me, but I guess the test would be how they behave/think/feel when not in a psychotic state.  E.g. will the catatonic still have receding energy....and momentum halting -- one must say that this is what they seem to practice to the extreme!

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Thread split from TeNi, to hopefully explore this topic in a more dedicated way.

[Tea]

The more I's you get, the more disorders you get. Keep aiming for IIII, folks!
(Kidding. I'd actually think it's those elements in isolation that are most problematic due to lack of compensatory mechanisms.)

[hackphobia]

Interesting!!. though the two paranoid persons i know seem Pe leads. I mean the ones who think they're being watched by the gov or get overly-skeptical about people they know . On the other hand, Pi leads seem to always exhibit a healthy amount of paranoia. They'll always duble check windows and doors whenever they leave. but, not an illness-level paranoia. but that's just my limited experience.
what would you say this guy's type? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MwO3wlChEk
on a different note, I'd say mental illness and the psyche defense mechanisms are definitely related to type. I'm not sure on the relationship between the two though. I believe the root of every mental illness is some kind of psyche defense mechanism. like avoiding, denying, projecting and splitting etc...

[sekundaer]

@hackphobia - thats really an interesting patient!  I didnt see your post before now.  Its a clip I will never forget, he is like a prototype.  And there is so strong signals going on all the time.  I am not sure I found all of them, but I feel pretty sure he is TeNi.  And I would say l---.     Did a V.report on him, that I have attached.  (I found out there is room in the codifier for a lot of notes, which I felt I otherwise have missed.  But what I think is missing is that it can save the  youtube link)
There might be correlation between defense mechanisms and type.... At least there are with the attitudes.  I will have to think it over (this guy is projecting though 😉 ....but is Pi tending more towards projection, dont know (maybe in connection with unseelieness)...

 

[Aletheia]

I think this direction of thought has a lot of merit, and have made similar observations about how type - lead function energetics and development especially - correlates to the vector of mental degredation.
A note about double E being related to mania based on my personal experience: I think that having both extroverted functions consciously integrated can lead to instances of compounded energy where Je's impetus to *do* is amplified and driven by Pe's impetus to *explore* and I'd say *journey forward*. But this doesn't really mimic mania (or even cross into it in some cases) unless there's an anxiety disorder involved.
There have been moments in my life where I become quite restless and uncomfortable unless I'm doing *something*. In these times I tend to struggle with insomnia, anxiety attacks and depression as well. In recent years as I've worked through my anxiety and come into a more stable and healthy life situation, these episodes have become much scarcer. Stress can trigger me to become a busy-body still at times, but in general the pseudo-manic episodes aren't a thing anymore.
I've spoken with others who have a double-extroverted dev and anxiety disorder as well. My partner, who I believe to be TiNe IIII, has had the same sort of restless episodes as I describe above, and also has struggled with anxiety. Two of my friends who have overcome anxiety disorders, a FeSi III- and NeTi III-, have also described the same sort of thing. My FeSi friend actually had clininically diagnosed bi-polar disorder for which she took meds for many years. She cured herself through self-psychoanalysis and diet! Proof that it *can* be done and *naturally* without side-effects.. but she described to me the mechanics of mania as she'd come to understand them. And from what she said anxiety played a huge role in her manic episodes, being the basis of the shift out of a depressed state. When she untangled the causality behind her anxiety and developed methods to maintain equanimity that's when the mania ceased. She still struggles a little with depression at times, and can become a busy-body too, but the severe anxiety/mania is resolved.
Something that may be noteworthy, it seems from my observations that there's a difference in manifestation of anxiety between J and P leads. J's often will feel the need to do something 'constructive' and quell anxiety with a feeling of usefulness or achievement. I've seen this manifest as everything from cooking to grandiose ideas about restructuring society ;p P's seem to tend more toward busying themselves with an enjoyable or creative activity, i.e. distraction from everyday tasks, etc. The quelling of anxiety in these cases seems to stem from shifting into a more enjoyable state of mind, or from direct relaxation. Of course anyone can pursue either of these coping mechanisms, but I have seen a preference in my limited observations.

[Animal]

I've had Se and Te all my life and although I was ambitious, I was not manic. I talk very fast and have insomnia, so some psychiatrists have said I might technically qualify on a psychiatric "spectrum" for mania, but this is more of a technicality - since it doesn't add up with the rest of my "ways." As a person I need a ton of down time and alone time or I can't function. I mean, A TON. During that time I might be writing books just for myself, or practicing music, or doing something that others might consider productive -but I'm sitting with my own feelings and thoughts, and processing them.  So, I'm not really manic and have not received a diagnosis despite seeing many therapists for insomnia. The only other thing I get is anxiety and paranoia, which happens when I'm very sick or socially overloaded.

[Author]

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