The Fe Myth & Meta Narratives

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  • Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Throwing some fish in these stormy waters:

    I think that the greatest example of the Hero’s Journey is found in the best selling book: The Bible. Jesus Christ’s life-story itself (he’s Fe dom is he not?) follows that cycle to the T.

     

    His story is much older than the Bible itself, and I would argue (but won’t..) that it is much, much older than the 2000-ish-years time that we’ve been fed to believe.

    In short; I am a supporter of the idea that the Hero’s Journey is a universal pattern, and I disagree that it is a product of modern times.

     

    Also (edit!), the popularity of the Hero’s Journey ‘coincides’ with the popularity of monotheism. Before that the Hero’s Journey was still incredibly important and spread throughout cultures world-wide, but it didn’t receive this massive focus as the other parts of the larger story (such as the tales of the Trickster) were of equal importance. The hierarchy has shifted. Bring back the GodS!!! I’m late for school now, thanks CT!

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Ivory.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I wrote some posts in the Harry Potter thread which belong here, on this topic.

    The Bible, The Sumerian Tablets, etc.
    Satan is a trickster. It’s just the way things are. As Auburn once wrote, the King who can no longer tolerate the Jester is a tyrant.
    The stories about a God who can‚Äôt tolerate being questioned and requires absolute faith without question ‚Äď these are stories of a tyrant.
    The Bible is a rewrite of many collected stories that were written before. In the Sumerian tablets, written a few thousand years before the Bible, the Annunaki created human kind as slaves to mine gold, because they needed gold to preserve the atmosphere of their home planet.¬† Enki ‚Äď a very clear Pe type ‚Äď was the creator of Man, who was more benevolent and wanted to give them longer life, teach them knowledge and endow them with the gifts of the Gods. But Enlil, his brother who was in charge of things, wanted to keep them as lowly slaves. They were first created in Eden, through DNA mixing between the Annunaki¬† and homo erectus.
    Enlil was always trying to limit them and Enki was always sneaking them special favors. In the Bible, Enlil ‚Äď the angry Je overseer ‚Äst was given the role of God in the same stories. Enki was given the role of Lucifer, Satan ‚ÄĒ the creative brother who disobeyed.
    There are many ways to look at this and we are not ‚Äúevil‚ÄĚ in all of them. The Bible is not the only creation story out there, and many of them tell the same stories from different angles.

    Harry Potter.
    In short: Voldemort‚Äôs Je vision gets ruined by Harry Potter, the trickster. That is the ‚Äúhero myth‚ÄĚ of the story.
    This is the same ‘twist’ on the Hero Myth that is covered in the Sumerian tablets, where Pe is hero and Je is tyrant.

    ____

    The point I’m making is, we all tap into the same universal narratives. It’s unavoidable.¬† “As above, so below.” But we depict different characters as heroes, and different ones as villains – in the same stories – depending on our personal experience, indoctrination, morals, and so forth.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    If we say Fe is a hero but not the hero’s journey, there’s no problem. Then Fe is like the myths of the other characters: archetypal roles like King, Prince, Trickster, Puer, Senex, etc.

    When reading this in passing, @Ivory said to me: “On this list, Fe is the Mentor.”

    That’s right.¬† All of those characters listed can be ‘Heroes.’

    But figures like Jesus Christ  are Mentors Рspecifically.

    What do you guys think?

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @fae I hereby declare that your communal pre-assigned calling is to express yourself and reject any prescribed roles!

    Jokes aside, I would say that the description being passed around gives it more of an Fe tint/shade, this whole talk of rising to power etc, but the story structure properly is much more general, for instance the hero returns to where he/she starts with something of value, not necessarily becoming the King of His Domain, that is more of a specific manifestation of it.

    Haha! @faeruss, Evil trickster, you! But yeah, I see what you mean. I don’t relate to the whole “taking my father’s place” at all, but you’re right. It’s not essential to the bones of the hero’s journey. It’s a version of it.

    My suggestion is that we start separating the elements of the basic ego’s tale from the function tales.

    So I think we can say the hero’s journey itself, at a “bare bones” level, is the ego’s journey.

    Fe is a character in stories, just like the other functions. The version of the hero’s journey changes depending on which role among the many characters the “ego/hero/protag” wears in a story. So you can have the same 8 characters changing the story depending on which one of them plays hero, villain, sidekick, obstacle, counsel etc

    So, Moanna, Diana (Wonder Woman), Black Panther, Dany Targaryen, are classic representatives of the hero’s journey where the hero takes on the character of Fe. (Not sure about Moanna to be honest, but I’ll go with Fe because I saw her typed that way on Discord some months ago.)

    They are, all three, positioned in a certain relationship with their people. BP literally dies/resurrects (kinda); the other three don’t but Moanna and Dany do walk into the belly of hell in a way. But I think death and resurrection is not Fe either. It’s the ego’s story. Growth in the psyche follows death, every time. So the essence of Fe must be elsewhere.

    The communal/collective role thing is one. Fe is either a saviour, a champion, or even a protector/mentor like animal says but it’s something that’s always intertwined with “the other” or the collective.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Faex.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Faex.
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    But we depict different characters as heroes, and different ones as villains ‚Äď in the same stories ‚Äď depending on our personal experience, indoctrination, morals, and so forth.

    I agree with this, @animal.^ I think the kinds of stories change depending on who among the lesser characters (Function myths) takes on the role of hero/protagonist; villain; counsel; helper/friend; etc.

    You have a different story if the hero is Fi and Si is the villain. Another where Te is the villain to Fi’s hero etc. Or Te is the counseller verses Ti or Ni etc.

    But the basic structures don’t change, like:

    1) Ego/Protagonist

    2) Struggle in the form of Villain or Obstacle to be overcome (or both)

    3) Defeat and victory

    4) Lessons or transformations

    5) Journey home

    They just look different depending on which character they’re “wearing” in a story.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Faex.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Faex.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Regarding Mentor as an alternative – I’m sorry but I disagree.

    In my opinion, pure Fe people are better suited for being Heroes than for being Mentors. They can be heroes who also do some mentoring but I don’t think this is their essential, pure energy.

    I see mentorship as more of a combination of Pi and Je and / or Ji and Je but I may be wrong. Especially Pi and Je and in this order. I mean, of course anyone can do anything but I think Pi is more important in mentoring than Je. What you communicate must first be lived, experienced and integrated in a world view. Or else there is a high risk of it not being consistent. I’m not saying FeNi I— can not be a good mentor (it would be quite absurd of me to claim something like that :)) ), I’m just saying Hero is a better suited word for this person than Mentor.

    Yes, death and resurrection is basically the same as transformation and we all go through transformation processes ! Who we are must always die and something new must be reborn.

    But I think Auburn means a specific type of death and resurrection and what he is saying is that when your communal role really matters to you like it usually does to Fe people.. and when your values are tightly connected to the larger social sphere, if you fail, you might feel you must die and be reborn. I think there are some different Fe-ish undertones in what he is talking about. It’s not just about transformation, it’a also about sacrifice, atonement, rebuilding yourself to become suitable for a specific societal role – like the role of a leader. And if you look at it from this perspective, death and resurrection does look more like an Fe theme.

    Now, I’m not sure that the Hero’s Journey is only about this specific path, because I don’t see this exact path necessarily depicted in the scheme Auburn posted but I believe this is what he is saying, we should find the car video and rewatch it, it’s there.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bera.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @bera

    If we look at Fe people – real ones, characters, mythological figures –

    We have Jesus, we have Jordan Peterson, Gandalf, etc etc — what do they all have in common? They are all Mentors.

    Voldemort is portrayed also as a Fe ‘charmer’ in his youth, though some may argue it’s Te. But he does exactly what Auburn describes for Fe – in killing his old self in order to become something new, so that he’s fit to fill the role of ‘leader.’¬† He does this through “splitting” self, which is very Fe.

    So, most people would not see him as a hero, but he is indeed, a Mentor. He has people who follow His Path. Which he eloquently spins into a righteous cause.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @faeruss pointed out the unfair positive bias in “Hero” compared to the other Myths. Using a neutral source, like a¬† Dictionary¬†

    let’s see what comes up first.

     king
    1a: a male monarch of a major territorial unitespecially : one whose position is hereditary and who rules for life
    b: a paramount chief
    2capitalized¬†:¬†GOD,¬†CHRIST‚Ķ to worship the¬†King, the Lord of hosts ‚Ķ‚ÄĒ Zechariah 14:16 (Revised Standard Version)
    3:¬†one that holds a¬†preeminent¬†positionespecially¬†:¬†a chief among competitorsthe cattle¬†kings¬†rode up from the south‚ÄĒ Alan Mooreheadeven if no longer¬†king, cotton remains the chief cash crop‚ÄĒ Howell Walker
    4: the principal piece of each color in chess having the power to move ordinarily one square in any direction and to capture opposing pieces but being obliged never to enter or remain in check
    5: a playing card marked with a stylized figure of a king
    6: a checker that has been crowned

    Spoiler:
    Alternate from Dictionary.com:
    king[king]
    EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR king ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    a male sovereign or monarch; a man who holds by life tenure, and usually by hereditary right, the chief authority over a country and people.
    ( initial capital letter ) God or Christ.
    a person or thing preeminent in its class:
    a king of actors.
    SEE MORE
    verb (used with object)
    to make a king of; cause to be or become a king; crown.
    Informal . to design or make (a product) king-size:
    The tobacco company is going to king its cigarettes.
    verb (used without object)
    to reign as king.

     

    trickster
    noun
    trick¬∑‚Äčster¬†|¬†\¬†ňątrik-st…ôr¬†¬†\
    Definition of trickster

    : one who tricks: such as
    a : a dishonest person who defrauds others by trickery
    b : a person (such as a stage magician) skilled in the use of tricks and illusion
    c : a cunning or deceptive character appearing in various forms in the folklore of many cultures

    Spoiler:
    Alternate from dictionary.com:
    trickster[trik-ster]
    EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR trickster ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    a deceiver; cheat; fraud.
    a person who plays tricks.
    a supernatural figure appearing in various guises and typically engaging in mischievous activities, important in the folklore and mythology of many primitive peoples and usually conceived as a culture hero.

     

    hero
    noun (1)
    he¬∑‚Äčro¬†|¬†\¬†ňąhir-(ňĆ)Ň欆¬†\
    plural heroes
    Definition of hero
    (Entry 1 of 3)
    1a: a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
    b: an illustrious warrior
    c: a person admired for achievements and noblequalities
    d: one who shows great courage
    2a:¬†the¬†principal¬†character in a literary or dramatic work‚ÄĒused specifically of a principal male character especially when contrasted with¬†heroineA special feature was the cliff-hanger ending when¬†hero, heroine, or both found themselves confronting a violent demise ‚Ķ‚ÄĒ Ira Konigsberg‚ÄĒnow also used of a principal character who is female‚Ķ action movies with female¬†heroes¬†are emerging more frequently, and with increasing quality.‚ÄĒ William Bibbiani
    b: the central figure in an event, period, or movement
    3plural usually heros : SUBMARINE sense 2
    4: an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL

    Spoiler:
    Alternate from dictionary.com:
    hero[heer-oh]
    SYNONYMS|EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR hero ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun, plural he·roes; for 5 also he·ros.
    a person noted for courageous acts or nobility of character:
    He became a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
    a person who, in the opinion of others, has special achievements, abilities, or personal qualities and is regarded as a role model or ideal:
    My older sister is my hero. Entrepreneurs are our modern heroes.
    the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
    Classical Mythology .
    a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
    (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
    (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
    hero sandwich.
    the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.

     

    Do you see the problem here?

    The other functions are neutral roles in Society, which may have positive or negative connotations – whereas “Hero” is an Idol, a principle character in a work, legendary illustrious warrior.

    These connotations matter.

    Mentor is a more neutral connotation, like the others. That is why it fits into the list. It holds within it the connotation of ‘shedding your self’ to become something greater for the sake of others, or to carry out a legacy.

     

    mentor
    noun
    men¬∑‚Äčtor¬†|¬†\¬†ňąmen-ňĆt»Įr¬†¬†,¬†-t…ôr\
    Definition of mentor
    (Entry 1 of 3)
    1capitalized¬†:¬†a friend of Odysseus entrusted with the education of Odysseus’ son Telemachus
    2a:¬†a trusted counselor or guidea¬†mentor¬†who, because he is detached and disinterested, can hold up a mirror to us‚ÄĒ P. W. Keve
    b: TUTOR, COACH The student sought a mentor in chemistry.

    Spoiler:
    Alternate from dictionary.com:
    mentor[men-tawr, -ter]
    SYNONYMS|EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR mentor ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    a wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
    an influential senior sponsor or supporter.
    verb (used without object)
    to act as a mentor:
    She spent years mentoring to junior employees.
    verb (used with object)
    to act as a mentor to:
    The brash young executive did not wish to be mentored by anyone.

     

    P.S. I’m not “personally offended” by positive or negative connotations. I love being a trickster ūüôā¬† ¬†While I very much identify as my own hero and savior – and have often taken on the role of hero for others (but in a very Te-ish way, pragmatic and doing things to protect their innocence) –¬† my philosophy is very much from a revisor point of view. I wanted to bring my own values to life, see them embodied and enacted. It was never about being a ruler or in any kind of social ‘hierarchy’ position.

    So I have no reason to moralize or to be offended by a slight imbalance here. I do agree that Je is the function that takes on responsibility for others and is run by conscience rather than a desire to enact or explore their own personal dreams & desires. This is no problem!

    But as @faerie has articulated so well, so many times on both threads; everyone is a hero. Everyone does heroic things for themselves and others, in different ways. The connotation of the word is just too positive, too universal, too human. Compare it to the other myths, and then Fe starts to lose its specific character.

    The way Auburn wrote the whole description is absolutely brilliant, and it was one of my favorites and very true to life. I’m not critiquing that.¬† I can ‘personally relate’ to parts of all the descriptions since I’m a human being, and these are human themes; while still, I can acknowledge that this isn’t “my” archetype. But in the case of Hero, we really all have our own hero story. And I strongly disagree that we’ve all adopted a Fe hero narrative because of ‘modern culture.’

    The problem, to me, is that ‘hero’ is in fact equated with individuation, and ‘narrative’ is also a universal need to have an identity. Some people care more than others about having a narrative, and arguably it’s related to “Pi ego” or something like that; but it’s about identity, not Fe, or even Ni.¬† (If we’re going to use real examples, my father is NiFe, and he doesn’t give much of a hoot about having a personal hero narrative. I often organize his stories into a narrative of overcoming poverty & enacting the American Dream, but he is much more interested in the wider cultural narrative replete with politics and history, and doesn’t talk much about his own identity heroism at all.)

    So saying “hero” “narrative” is Fe, and the rest of the people that relate to it are biased due to modern culture, just doesn’t add up.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
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    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @animal

    Jordan Peterson is a very good example of Fe, Ni and Ti development ! ūüôā

    Jesus is not a very good example of anything (as a real person I mean) because we do not know what his type or functions or development level were. If we are just talking about what is in the Bible…do you think he was Fe I— ? Because he used a lot of cryptic talk and parables…

    I don’t know about Gandalf’s type and development level but are you sure he has no Pi development?

    I’d say Voldermort is a (dark) leader and every leader must also do some mentoring, it’s part of leadership but not the main part.

    I do think pure Fe people can be good mentors but I don’t think this is their essence, to me Mentor has a bit of senex energy but I might be wrong, I never considered these things until now…:)

    I will give a tarot example because I can’t resist the temptation.

    Strength could depict Fe (we talked about it at some point I think). The Chariot could also depict Fe or at least Je, generally.And they both carry a meaning of leadership, control and agency.

    But if you think of Mentorship, you naturally visualize the Hermit and he indeed is described as giving guidance and being a mentor. And he is a Senex, not a King/Father/Hero type, you know? But he does have some Fe, he does have a lamp in his hand. :))

    Sorry for the woo everyone. <3

    But I’m just saying how it looks to me, I think we need @Auburn to sort this out. ūüôā

    And about the last post – I see what you’re saying but I¬† actually think it’s way more dangerous to say Fe = Mentor.

    Mentor is close to teacher/coach.¬†¬†Way above hero/savior in my value system at least although hero sounds cooler. But the mentor tells you what to do !!!¬† And not just like a leader would, he changes your world view. That’s why I’d say he needs more development and specifically Senex energy and his own pretty well developed world view to effectively do that ! ūüôā That’s precisely why I am against saying Fe- Mentor Myth. I mean, I’m ok with being saved by Fe but not with being coached by Fe and I will just be honest and admit it lol. :))))

    (of course, I’m joking, I think Fe people can be wonderful mentors, as I said before, but I don’t see Fe’s myth as the Mentor Myth…because I don’t see Fe all by itself, with no other development or special circumstances, other people’s support etc as a Mentor)

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bera.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @bera
    “Hero” is a good example of someone with strong focus and a lot of development, be it through developing all their functions or through developing one function to its maximum capacity.¬† Characters who become heroes have to incorporate other functions. A Fe character, or person, cannot become a hero and ‘individuate’ unless they incorporate some consistency into their value structure via integrating their Polar.

    So saying that people have developed other functions, is kind of a moot point. We all have to confront our shadow in order to become the ‘hero’ of our own story, let alone to be of any help to others.

    And that’s exactly back to the original problem, and the one I demonstrated through a simple use of dictionary: hero is too positive, too human, too connected to ‘individuation,’ too universal. Not because “people who aren’t Fe have adopted this Fe narrative as their own through culture”¬† ūüėĬ† no, but because everyone is endowed with an innate need for narrative, individuation etc; though it may come out in different ways depending on the functions.

    I do agree with you that Mentor is not an ideal word either, because of the ‘Hermit’ connotation. But it’s getting closer to what unites one Fe user to the next, without being so inclusive that it encompasses the whole of humanity and all mythology.

    It would have been intellectually honest to say Harry Potter was a Se hero myth – in which the trickster obstructs the plan of the Fe villain, and frees people from tyranny. But instead we have found ourselves in a position where all heroic stories are lumped into a Fe myth, even if the story is about using Pe to free us from Je. This is a problem.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I strongly agree with @Auburn ‘s assertion that ‘naming it isn’t his choice.’ And that further evaluation is needed to clarify this. Just to make my position clear.

    As a writer myself, I also feel that the characters tell me who they are; I don’t get to decide.¬† I don’t want to kill off certain characters but I have to, because that is part of their arc and what is needed to bring the mythology to fruition.

    I couldn’t agree more that this has to develop organically. I’m just clarifying my own reaction to some of the ideas that have been presented, but on the whole, the Fe myth will have to name itself. Its truth will have to reveal itself.

    It may be true that the Hero is the best name, for the reason that it forces us to consider alternative ways of viewing heroism.¬† But in that case, I feel it is absolutely imperative that stories like Harry Potter are acknowledged as “Se Hero” myths in which a trickster destroys the leader’s plans, and frees the world from the tyranny of corrupt Fe (or Je).¬† If stories like that are lumped into Fe, then we defeat the beauty that may come of exploring different angles on heroism.

    In my opinion, if we are going to explore Fe ‘heroism’ in an intellectually honest light, then we will also explore myths that are similar to Voldemort, and which portray the darker side of ‘getting rid of your own feelings to become something more.’ Corrupt leaders, false messiahs – these people are everywhere. Why aren’t they covered in the article, like they are for the other types?

    This is, in fact, what I am doing with my Fe lead antagonist. He is not a black-and-white villain like Voldemort, he is a very human and relatable Fe lead – who demonstrates the darker potentials of the archetype. I am sure other stories like this already exist, and these also should be mentioned in the Fe discussion.¬† Otherwise, people will see “Se – the Joker” with no balance from characters like Harry Potter;¬† and Fe “Jesus, the Messiah, Peterson” etc – and think…. Ok, so Fe is good and Se is evil?

    Auburn mentioned that if Se people show up with a higher crime rate, we should not skirt around that fact. I agree. But we should also not skirt around “Se Trickster Hero is Harry Potter.” Because it has shown up. It exists.

    Kali, Harry Potter, Loki – these type of archetypes that are Se, exist. We don’t need to limit ourselves to the Joker, and then throw Harry Potter into the Fe camp. If we’re gonna keep it real, then let’s be real. ūüėÄ

    We can say “Oh, but Fe is about being a better person and self improving, and Se isn’t. So even if these characters are Se leads, their stories don’t belong in the Se description.” However, is that really true? Shouldn’t we acknowledge the reason that tricksters have shown up as heroes,¬† freeing people from tyranny and exposing the darkness behind the throne – time and time again, throughout history?¬† Shouldn’t this be part of the timeless Se myth?

    We don’t get to decide which myths are embodied by the functions. The truths come to us. Specifically Auburn, who is channeling their essence.

    And the truth has shown itself, that Se has a heroic role to play, mythologically. So, what is it? Why do we only see delinquents and addicts in the description? Why isn’t Voldemort, or another corrupt leader, in the Fe description – as Trump is portrayed so negatively in the Te description?

    When Se heroes are showing up all around us, portrayed in series whose themes are anti-authoritarian and focused on freeing people from Je tyranny, and we start viewing them as “Fe hero stories” – we can assume that culture has, in fact, influenced us to see “Fe hero narrative” as the only heroic narrative. However, that is not how I see it. I see both heroic and demonic narratives in different functions, and I would hope those stories show up in the descriptions.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
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    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    The Classic Hero is indeed Fe. Think Superman, think Captain America. These are the prototypal ‘good guys’ who feel the weight of the world on their shoulders. Other modern heroes, such as Spider-man, are not Fe but are known to try and emulate the ‘greats.’

    Harry Potter is not Fe, yet his story is often used as an example of the Heroes Journey. Yet, there are tons of instances where HP subverted expectations and acted true to his nature; that of the wild card, the Trickster.

    So we have the archetypal Hero, and we have the Hero’s Journey. When these two come together, you get powerhouses such as Jesus Christ. But these stories are mostly unrelatable, so authors often use non-archetypal-Hero protagonists and throw them in the Hero’s Journey. Boom, now we have someone relatable, like H Potter. Everybody wants to be like Captain America, but it is Spider-man, the geek thrown in the Hero’s Journey, who is most relatable and thus most popular.

    Hero =/= Hero’s Journey

    I know this has been established already, but I’m merely putting emphasis on the importance of this distinction here.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Yes.

    The role of the Trickster – aka Delinquent, Sex addict, Drug addict, Vulgar, Self-indulgent Maniac – is to expose the tyranny of a corrupt King, who believes himself a Hero.

    May we never lump that in with Fe hero’s journey.

    The Trickster does not view himself as a Hero. He doesn’t give a flying load about his role in society. Yet he fulfills it nonetheless. He has the volition to chase what he wants; he is ruled by the thrill of the chase; and he is relentless. If he has any morals at all, they come from his own Ji, rather than from society.¬† Thus he may stumble into a hero role and leave it behind as soon as he’s free to return to indulging himself. Or, better yet, when a more exciting challenge presents itself.

    Meanwhile, many a powerful Je leader is lacking in Ji. The lack of Ji leads to high instances of hypocrisy, just as the lack of Pi leads to reckless abandon in Pe types.¬† That lack of integrity is what leaves the Self-proclaimed “Hero” vulnerable to the Trickster.

    May we never fail to acknowledge that roles exist, whether we choose to embody them or not. Therefore, the conscience-driven Je type, may want to embody the hero- but may instead, embody the Persuader, the False Messiah, or the Tyrant.¬† Likewise, the self-indulgent delinquent Se Trickster, may embody the Hero in a wide-spread social way; at times when disruption, chaos and “stick it to the man” is most needed.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
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    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Animal.
    Chiron
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Truth be told, I haven’t had the time to read all the way through this thread! So these thoughts may have already been addressed by others. But this is my take on the Hero Journey and how the myths of Fe and Fi seem to differ..

    Fi: “I face adversity and take my place in the world despite the hardship” (Snow White, Frozen, Mulan, Harry Potter (he’s ‘marked’, special, descended from important ppl), etc.) Self symbolism prevalent.

    ‘I will find my place in the world and rise to be respected as I deserve, this will enact ethical justice on those who suppressed me, and you will learn from my example what is right and how to do this for yourself!’

    Many fairy tale stories are about the protagonist being suppressed from being their true self or having the life they deserve for who they are (royalty, etc.) They go through a journey where they escape the restrictions, and end up ‘riding away into the sunset’ to their perfectly fulfilled and comfortable life – paradise, essentially. This goes along with Te’s myth of the King/Queen, it’s about having one’s own identity, being respected for who they are, having a ‘domain’ and complete satisfaction in material comforts.

    Fe: “I face death and overcome it for the good of the collective” (Examples: Jesus Christ, Leouch from Code Geass, Hercules, Odysseus etc.) Hero/Messiah symbolism prevalent.

    ‘I’ll stay behind and be the martyr, I’ll take the brunt, so that the rest of you can be ok! I’ll enact justice for your sake, and then you will honor me and I’ll earn your respect.’

    The Fe hero story tends to be grittier than the Fi myth and often contains an element of self-sacrifice/death. It also tends to end in ascension to Godhood or a place of tribal leadership, the character ends up with a heavy hand in the dealings of society/humanity. This contrasts to the Fi myth, which focuses on the individual’s achievement for its own sake – the protagonist ends up earning their rightful place, but is more isolated in their paradise.

    This is anecdotal, but I relate a lot with this kind of take on the Fe hero myth. I’ve always felt an underlying drive to overcome the suffering I experience because of the notion that I have a purpose to aide humanity, and so that I would be a source of inspiration to encourage others to rise above their struggles and pursue excellence. It’s very much about self-mastery too, and image for my own sake, but without the second component of potential contribution to society, I likely wouldn’t have the motivation to do what I’ve done.

    It’s a subtle nuance, and the two journeys can have a lot of parallels, but I think it’s about the impetus being essentially the self or collective. Does this make any sense?

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Chiron.
    Faex
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    It’s a subtle nuance, and the two journeys can have a lot of parallels, but I think it’s about the impetus being essentially the self or collective. Does this make any sense?

    I agree, @alerith. I think this “collective” element inherent in Fe is what makes it difficult to find a name for it that doesn’t sound inherently saintly or positive: hero, saviour, champion, protector, even mentor. The difficulty we’re experiencing is how to describe a kind of ‘service’ quality embedded in Fe because of the relationship with “other” or “collective”. The opposite of individualism. But just as long as we don’t confuse this with the ego’s journey to wholeness itself (universal myth) I think we can find something.

    I agree that the “opressed hero” myth (Cinderella stories) is very Fi. I actually think they are “Fi against Fe oppression” myths. Typically, the oppressed here is seen as socially lowly.

    Another kind of story that follows along the same general lines, Alerith, are the ones that demand a “pure of heart” test. Where people are rewarded or punished based on whether they are really good or not, which is discovered by what they do when they think no one is watching.

    -Usually, a magical being (like an enchantress or fairy) transforms themselves into a weak/poor/old/ugly person in need and rewards or punishes those who are kind or unkind to them in that state. I can think of several stories like this.

    -Another is where the magical being makes it easy to get away with vice and then sees whether the person takes that route or not. For example, the story of the poor woodcutter who accidentally threw his axe into a lake. The lake faery came out and offered to help him find it. She went in and brought out a much better axe, I think of finer wood or bronze or something and asked, “Is it this one?” The woodcutter admired it but said “No.” Then she brought out a silver one, then lastly, a gold one. Each time, the woodcutter thought how much it would enrich him but said ultimately, “No.” Then the faery brought out his old ugly, tired axe and he said, “Yes, that’s my axe.” Then she rewarded him with all four axes she had tested him with.

    Both of them are about “true goodness” versus the appearance of goodness. I find them very Fi in sentiment; like a story that might’ve been crafted by an Fi author.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Faex.
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