CT Criticism & Spirituality/Growth

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  • EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • F Attitude: Directive

    This might change for me, but so far it seems like JiNe and SeJi do a better job of not taking things personally than most JiSe and NeJi I’ve observed. Before someone can have wrong impression of you they have an impression of an imaginary concept that they see is tied to your physical body. This conceptional tie down may advance, but will never be separate from that person’s mental model of the world. Anything in that model that is truly negative must also be harming them on some passive level that is capable of becoming active given the arrival a reverse situation. Do to a seemingly advance degree of acceptance I believe that animal is not harming herself in that passive light. Thus is incapable of meaning any harm to @Scientiam according to my evaluation so far. Auburn having accepted this help also does not reflect this physic so far.

    Spoiler for update

    This might change for me, but so far it seems like JiNe and SeJi do a better job of not taking things personally than most JiSe and NeJi I’ve observed. Before someone can have wrong impression of you they have an impression of an imaginary concept that they see is tied to your physical body. This conceptional tie down may advance, but will never be separate from that person’s mental model of the world. Anything in that model that is truly negative most also be harming them on some passive level that is capable of becoming active given the arrival a reverse situation. Do to a seemingly advance degree of acceptance I believe that @animal is not harming herself in that passive light except for ‘protective’ which implies that there are characters within her psychic which feel the need to be protective, instead of consideration or justifying, against other characters. Thus is incapable of meaning any harm to Scientiam in any regards other than the sense of ‘protectiveness’ so far. @Auburn having accepted this help does show a reflection of the protectiveness. It may just be important to get a flesh out understanding of ‘protectiveness’ and see if there needs to be another phase that can be a harmonious substitute.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by EpicEntity.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    @EpicEntity

    Nurturing and Protective energy are both necessary parts of humanity.  A child must receive father energy (protection, challenge) and mother energy (nurturance, unconditional love) in order to evolve well.  A father’s archetypal role is to tell the child his performance was not up to par so the child may strive to do better, to win his approval. This helps the child build confidence. Meanwhile the mother’s role is to accept the child no matter what he does, and to show unconditional love, so the child develops trust and stability. Without both of these influences, the child will be crippled.

    I responded viscerally to a gap in protective energy at CT. Lately, with liberal politics, there has been an demasculisation of society. Masculine energy – including protectiveness, challenge, and standards – has been shunned, but it is necessary for the species nonetheless. So the CT crowd is behaving in a feminine manner and lo and behold, a woman comes in and balances this out. Perhaps that’s what strikes people the wrong way? Would this look better if I were a man?  Note that I am a very visceral person and if I saw a child lacking nurturance, I would jump in with empathic feelings – but in this case, I saw a child receiving unconditional love despite running amock and misbehaving. And I am not referring to Scientiam alone when I say “a child,” though he did make quite the scene about his hurt feelings – I’m talking about the general outlook around here. The reason I left the discord is because everyone was carefully tiptoeing on eggshells in an effort to all get along and meld into one big happypot, which doesn’t interest me, as this behavior does nothing to thwart predators and passive-aggression. Pretending there’s no problem (or no human nature) doesn’t mean the problem (or human nature) goes away.  So, I show up when things need balance. I don’t do this on purpose. I’m a Libra, and Libras react viscerally to injustices. I have Mars in Sag, and I jump in with fierce fire and then move on once the devil has burned in my wake. My fire lights up the truth and exposes what others could not see in the dark, murky waters of “let’s all get along.”   This is another way to view things, if you want to.

    Instead of looking at my psyche alone, look at its function in the bigger picture. And then look at yours, too. =). I am the trickster in this scenario, so I am the man when the energy is ‘girls’ and I am a woman when the energy is ‘boys.’ The trickster knows not right or wrong. It knows only to stir things up in order to transform that which needs transforming. The dust settles in my wake, and I move on to my next hunt . 🙂

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Animal.
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    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • F Attitude: Directive

    Until I say these things I am letting other’s perspective of me go manipulated. I am unemployed (until Monday… maybe… land-crafting labor), sexually inexperienced ( half my neighbors somehow think I am a womanizer 🙃), welfare freeloader (no excuse). I believe it is possible that my presents may give an unhealthy sense of lingering to the CT community. At times I wonder if no matter how much I believe I am acting in a way that is true to my core this lingering presents may infect others (especially younger minds).

     

    So now I laid it out like Eminim @animal I would like to hear your opinion of this. That’s if you have formed any from what you may have seen and remember of me so far.

    As painful as it might be I could only serve truth better from it.

    PS: I’ll be paying more attention to how you refine the CT community.

    PPS: I’ve been thinking about spending more time studying your website. I’m interested in how my models, regarding the use of Se, will expand.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by EpicEntity.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    @EpicEntity

    To be clear about me refining the forum, I will say that  Auburn’s idea of Se as a ‘trickster’ has resonated with me increasingly, the more I learn. I’m not saying that my “entire identity” rests upon this principle – I have an overdeveloped sense of identity already 😀 ….  so I don’t need to inherit one from CT. But the trickster really resonates with the way I see myself anyway, the archetypes I’ve connected to, etc.  So I’ll just say that I’m not sure if I’ll always be refining. Sometimes I’m rebelling, pointing out errors, reacting emotionally etc.

    At this point I’ve been around CT for more than a year and Auburn has proved himself, in my eyes, to be a strong leader. I studied the content of the forum for about six months before I joined and it matched the results of a system I had been developing with my group, which lead to typings that were identical to the ones CT came up with, including many of our own typings. So I knew I backed the theory, because he saw what I saw and took it to the next level. Once I joined, I had good feelings about his character and leadership, but our cognitions are very different so I was not always sure where he was headed with things. I wondered, would he stand up to the task?  It is in my nature to reveal the weaknesses, holes and problems with the entity I’m exploring – not necessarily on purpose, but it’s instinct. I don’t want to ride a sinking ship, so I start pushing and prodding, which ultimately forces the leader to show their true colors.  And show them, Auburn did… and I was pleasantly surprised.  I always respected his mind and character, but over time my respect for him as a leader has grown.

    I am very drawn to strong ideas, strong characters, and strong people who fight against all odds to make their dreams come true.  I am less prone to defend self-victimizers in general. I will defend someone who is truly vulnerable at any given time, but a lot of what others view as “vulnerable,” I view it as self-pitying, manipulative nonsense, designed to get attention and manipulate situations to their own favor, even as their actions only serve to weaken the entity they supposedly want to support.  So for the most part I’m pretty immune to self-serving pity parties. But when someone is truly strong, and doing something because they genuinely believe in it, you can bet I’d hiss at anyone who is trying to bring them down. Those are weak links, and need to be exposed as such, for the entity to retain its strength. It also provides an avenue for people to reflect on their own weaknesses and step up to the plate, if they so choose.

    In the current political climate, everyone hates the rich guy. I’m that person who has empathy for someone that has more than me, and thus I am not impressed by petty jealousy. If someone wants to have more, we all have 24 hours in a day and we can work to get more. I’m chronically ill, and I’ve been obstructed every single step of the path, but I still strive as best as I am able through physical and neurological illness. So I’m not very patient with big hordes of whiners going “omg, Animal is the big bad leader who viciously imposed rules on poor little me” — nor do I have much patience for this when it is directed at other fellow visionaries.

    When I was a child I was very shy and had a hard time socially, but when I saw someone being bullied who could not defend themselves (like mentally ill or crippled children) I would jump in and physically position myself between them and the bullies. But I would not participate in “omg, what a jerk, go tell him off because he slighted me…”  etc. Which is why I had very few friends. I was always willing to help someone build up strength inside of herself, but not to fight battles that only serve to weaken the parties involved.

    Anyway this is kind of off topic but maybe it gives you some insight into how my visceral reactions work. Getting back to the trickster, I am not ‘committed’ to this as some kind of principle. I just find myself reacting on behalf of these instincts, to fight for that which is evolving and, in doing so, force that which is stale into motion. In my mind, I’m dancing along with the rhythm of the world, which is always turning, growing and changing, and I automatically come to embody “death and cathartic rebirth.” On other forums I have called myself Volcana. I am the volcano that erupts and, in my wake, the weak principles burn – only the strong ones survive. This destruction paves the way for creation.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Animal.
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    Scientiam
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • F Attitude: Directive

    @animal, I would like to apologize to you for snipping at you about the comment of plagiarism you said in your post, but specifically because when I read your whole post I knew intuitively that you weren’t “intending” to hurt me, but I was hurt and bothered anyway by the comment and decided to lash out at you. It would have been better to ask you and clarify what you meant. Funnily, the way I got to this realization was through a tarot reading saying I had offended the divine masculine instead of honoring it and that if I didn’t apologize I would get karmic justice. I thought about it a little bit and thought of situations, including this one, where I might have done wrong but decided to ignore it until the next day, which is today. So this morning I woke up and I looked out my motel window and prayed to get more information and reason on this “karmic justice” that was coming to me and which I needed to apologize for. Right after I asked for this I pulled open the window for some fresh air and got my fingers hit and caught by the window mechanism: I knew right away that this was my punishment lol and that it related to you with when I saw your posts.

    Anyway, I think you represent the divine masculine energy primarily, very hot/passionate/”brash” lol, and I am sorry for not clearing things out first when I had already sensed you were not being malicious to me (although maybe just too brash for me lol since I’m barely working on my rawrrr) . I see the purpose in your philosophy of destruction and acting as a force of nature (something I am integrating in and balancing in myself as I represent primarily the divine feminine and the principle of passivity/receptivity/attraction).  We both (all of us) have these energies in complex, beautiful ways and so we should honor them.

    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • F Attitude: Directive

     …tarot reading saying I had offended the divine masculine instead of honoring it and that if I didn’t apologize…  …I knew right away that this was my punishment…

    I’m not one to say “tarot reading are you kidding me” right of back. To me that’s closed mindedness to the highest order. I usually see it as kind of interesting and I absolutely love how ‘Persona 4’, the game, made use of it in both it’s gameplay and story telling. The use of it in video I find to be pretty interesting as well especially when gather your thoughts as a form of prayer. Now when I read this instincts of apology and punishment… the feeling put in words are like “mmm I don’t like where this is going”.

    First thought: It’s not just apology and punishment, but also bless and reward that can be just as fallible. Think of all pain as hidden pain and all pleasure as hidden pain so that you can see what inside you gives that experience it’s significance. Letting something outside of you determine the significance of an experience without your vote. This influences a lowered conscientiousness.

    Second thought: tarot is a great opportunity to scramble your usually assigned significance toward any experience. Thus you have advanced your vocabulary of interpretations. Soon enough you could fit any situation into all tarot cards and be able to stick to the one or few that bring out the most creativity or even relatively competitive reality.

    Third thought: is for something to be able to punish you… you have to be able to punish it back… because at the most essential level their can be no ruler. I guess that’s a sign of oneness.

    Conclusion: I am mostly leaning toward pain and pleasure in tarot not being such a good thing. Not sure how to fully articulate this. If anyone else sees what I am trending then feel free to thread together what you can. I had to get this out in someway because it feels bad imagining month staying shut.

     

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by EpicEntity.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    @scientiam

    Thank you so much for your kind words 🙂 In return I’d like to apologize if I was too brash.

    I am happy we came to an understanding. I have more to say about this but a busy week coming up, so I may be a while. I just wanted to say I saw your apology and I appreciate your effort to reach out and understand where I am coming from. Also love the thoughts on masculinity etc. More soon  =)

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Animal.
    Scientiam
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • F Attitude: Directive
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    Well since we’re replying via video…

    (this is a response to the first ~20 minutes of your video, as I didn’t get all the way through it– due to time constraints– so my reply is restricted to that context)

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    @Auburn I can’t make a video now, but I want to say briefly that I feel very similarly about your system and its potential, and that’s what I meant by envisioning great things it could do for the world. I have the exact same frustrations when it comes to enneagram. I know that my group has touched on something closer to the truth and the real purpose of the system. I know our typings are more accurate and that we’ve dug up the gold from the previous authors and separated that from the bullshit. I just know it! We have a long way to go, still – but it frustrates me that when we go on other forums, everyone is just believing bullshit.

    It’s harder to elucidate enneagram through objective signals and we are not ready at all for a project of CT’s caliber. We’re still working on finding an objective way to present the basic truths that we’ve seen, in a way that is clear for others to see too. But my investment in it, personally, extends far beyond ‘intellectual interest.’ If enneagram were taught properly in grade school, I imagine so many  psychological problems and interpersonal misunderstandings that could be prevented!  If we all understood the automatic mechanisms running in the background that cause us to act in terrible ways.. we would self-correct much more effectively.   And so forth….

    This is why I understood, or sensed, the scale of your project right away. It was clear you were on the same page about where typology can go, at least your system. (I imagine you’ll see that in enneagram too once we consolidate our ideas more effectively.)

    And you’ve been a model for us, in how to do this, how to organize, how to show the world what we see. We are very aware that we’re not there yet, but we also see how it can be done.  Still, even now, I get frustrated that people with huge followings are releasing idiotic videos about outdated and nonsensical views of type. I feel like even if we do touch on something true, we won’t have a following, just because we’re more focused on that process of delineation than we are on a public audience. To focus on garnering a public audience is to cut corners in the artistic process, since the product is never FULLY ready.  And that, of course, is the problem with Ji.  Although I am more Je heavy than Ji heavy, I do relate to this, because I need to feel like the thing I’m presenting is TRUE, pure, and does what it’s meant to do, rather than just presenting some half assed, unfinished raw splat to the public. But even if I had something I felt confident in, I would be bored and annoyed by the process of advertising, and the time it takes away from the project itself…..

    So yeah, basically what I’m saying is “I hear ya.” Soon, if my medicine continues working, I’m hoping to do some public videos because I need to get publicity for my own writing project. At that point I’ll talk to you about ways I could draw a crowd to CT also, if I manage to do this in a presentable way. I hope that can be helpful.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by Animal.
    Bera
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • F Attitude: Seelie

    Guys, this is awesome ! You expressed very interesting points. I will address them when I have a little time but for now I wanted to post my original video that prompted scientiam’s answer above. It was first meant to only be seen by the people involved in this discussion but now that you answered directly here, I think it’s natural for me to post it, so people can see what you are referring to.

    Just to clarify one issue that seems of major importance – I don’t argue CT’s accuracy as a typing system. I fully agree with your opinions on accuracy.

    My concerns are only about function development counseling services. I believe we need more information and experience in order to be able to help people develop functions effectively and safely.

    We saw a couple of cases of function development of CT members. The pattern appears to be that when the function can be qualified as conscious by vultology, the person is already or starts going through an integration phase, that tends to manifest as  oscillations in behavior, a use of that particular function that is not yet perfectly adapted to the social sphere (for example bursts of anger in the case of Je, that a Je lead will have learned to master early on but that the Je developing person needs to learn to control in a shorter time), profound dreams and sometimes day time visions, lifestyle and relationship changes.

    All these effects matter and in my opinion deserve to be studied more extensively.

    There seem to be some cases that defy this pattern and now that I said this, I propose the hypothesis that age matters. I might be wrong, as there are many factors to be taken into account, but simply based on direct observation of a not very large pool of people – this is what stands out. The younger the better/easier/less eventful, I mean. Which would actually make sense, as it applies in many other fields like learning a new language, a sport etc. This just occured to me while thinking whose development looked like the smoothest. 🙂

    There are for sure practical actions that can help in this process and I think they are connected to the act of balancing opposing functions. The developing function has a certain vigor and intensity that can be overwhelming for the person who is going through development. Hence there is a need to find healthy ways to integrate it, by balancing it with the opposing function and (maybe less so) with the other functions.

    I thought I needed to explain this, because you guys talked about accuracy and there is no doubt in my mind that CT is accurate.

    So, my whole rant was not about what but about how. 🙂 I agree on what can be done. Yes, we can help people in function development. But how ? 🙂 How can this be done? There are particulars to this and in my opinion we can gain more knowledge by discussing directly with people who have developed some of their functions. Especially those who were aware of function development while it was happening.

    There are CT members who don’t believe that function development with the intention of obtaining a certain result is even possible or desirable and this is a whole discussion in itself. Then there are people who simply say they watched many videos of Jordan Peterson in order to develop their Fe. Who have developed Fe. Or people developing Te who use different techniques in order to tame it. Who do tame it and use it better every day.

    Let’s talk about this. Not here, in this thread; in other threads. There is this reluctance to say I did this to develop my functions. Or I didn’t do anything to develop my functions but while developing them, what I was doing every day was …. 

    What I know is that some people have tried out these tools :

    – willful modulation;

    – visualization;

    – watching others use the function or interacting with them (which seems to have an effect if you just go for Ji or Je, Pi or Pe by the way);

    – spiritual experiences;

    – activities that we think would trigger that function (for example tarot reading for Pi, debates for Je etc)

    Maybe others…?

    These are the ones that I could think of right now. I am sure they all can be improved. I can give examples of what went completely wrong for me in visualization or where some people seem to struggle more in modulation. I think it would be a useful approach to openly talk about what we tried and what has worked for us, as well as where we failed and what we could have done differently in order to prevent it.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by Bera.
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    ^ Not to derail the discussion a bit, but the above is precisely the reason I am interested in CT. It’s therapeutic application. This plays into the psychological as well as the spiritual. If we can parse out guidelines for safe, fulfilling, and permanent functional development, we can lay the groundwork for therapeutic tools to help those who are undergoing functional growth or transition. Guiding people through life transitions or periods of growth is already the domain of current psychotherapy, but CT could add an incredible depth of precision that could save time, boost potential for self-actualization, and honestly even save lives.

    I think of all the time I wasted in my teens and early twenties clumsily integrating my Se. I became addicted to various substances and did a bunch of risky, stupid shit. It took me years to ditch tons of bad habits I formed when I was younger, and I’m still trying to get to a healthier place to this day. Imagine if I had a therapist who could see that I was FiSe, and that I was in the process of integrating my Se. Maybe they could have guided me through the process better than I did alone, or maybe it’s just part of the process of integration to have to explore the dark manifestation of a function and also the light. This is what I would love to find out. There are so many people out there who seek out guidance when they sense a change in themselves, and it would be incredible to be able to not have to rely on intuition to guide them. I know this is a little lofty, but it would also honestly revolutionize addict rehabilitation programs like AA and NA too.

    EDIT: Of course, it hopefully goes without saying that this kind of therapeutic practice is an enormous undertaking and responsibility. We are certainly many years off from this possibility, and it needs to be integrated into current therapeutic practice in an ethical manner. It would be used alongside proven and tested methods for therapy. I didn’t read a lot of this thread and watch all of the videos, which I know is a total faux pas. My bad! I got excited. I didn’t realize someone was offering to do a kind of CT therapy in exchange for money. It is absolutely my view that it would be unethical to do this without training and experience in the field of practicing mainstream psychotherapy.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by Alice.
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    Bera
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • F Attitude: Seelie

    @alice – yes, I totally agree with you !

    I will give concrete examples in another thread, if we start one. I have a good example of how my attempts at visualization went wrong and how a very simple change in setting would have helped enormously.

    I think this can be done as self help before it gets integrated in mainstream therapy. I don’t mind it being offered as self help/personal development as long as it works.

    But we’d need more information to get even there. In my opinion, the best approach would be to study several cases and see the most common patterns of what people experience. And find creative ways to mitigate the risks. I did this for myself as well as I could and – in support of the spiritual side – I came to some conclusions after a series of synchronicities. But while this was happening I noticed other people were going through pretty similar experiences. So, there are patterns. Which means if we knew them, we could build better strategies for support.

    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    @bera – very cool stuff! What you’re saying has me bouncing a lot of ideas around in my head. It sounds like this could be explored through group work, like the kind where everyone sits in a circle and talks about their experiences. If you – or anyone – ever wants to compare and contrast their experiences and try to relate it all back to type, I’m absolutely on board. I’ve already been playing around with the idea of having all the FiSes interview eachother / just chat a little more in depth, but I’m wondering if we could do that same thing with just Fi leads, or gammas, or Ji leads, or unseelies etc etc. This might help us identify more patterns and identify with greater clarity what the types and functions mean in face-to-face practice / communication.

    To use my own type as an example again, what if another FiSe with conscious Se and I talked about what it was like to integrate that function? We could talk about where we may have gone wrong, or went right, or just cool stuff we started noticing when it started happening. Does that kind of conversation sound like a reasonable and responsible way to gather a little bit of data? Sorry if this is getting a little bit off topic! I know you mentioned maybe fleshing out ideas in other threads (and this is already a thread split hahaha)!

    Rondo
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: llll
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    @alice & @bera – I won’t thread split this right now as it sounds like you are both still deciding how exactly to proceed, but I think these ideas are excellent. Having conversations between individuals of the same Quadra, Type, F Attitude, etc. and with the same overarching topic (function integration) I think would be an excellent way to start the ball rolling. I’d be happy to synthesize the key points from each conversation, with the aim of collecting the info into a single thread to see what looks to be applicable to all types, and what ends up being more specific. If that’s of interest feel free to send me a PM or a message here.

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