CT Criticism & Spirituality/Growth

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  • Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Guys, this is awesome ! You expressed very interesting points. I will address them when I have a little time but for now I wanted to post my original video that prompted scientiam’s answer above. It was first meant to only be seen by the people involved in this discussion but now that you answered directly here, I think it’s natural for me to post it, so people can see what you are referring to.

    Just to clarify one issue that seems of major importance – I don’t argue CT’s accuracy as a typing system. I fully agree with your opinions on accuracy.

    My concerns are only about function development counseling services. I believe we need more information and experience in order to be able to help people develop functions effectively and safely.

    We saw a couple of cases of function development of CT members. The pattern appears to be that when the function can be qualified as conscious by vultology, the person is already or starts going through an integration phase, that tends to manifest as  oscillations in behavior, a use of that particular function that is not yet perfectly adapted to the social sphere (for example bursts of anger in the case of Je, that a Je lead will have learned to master early on but that the Je developing person needs to learn to control in a shorter time), profound dreams and sometimes day time visions, lifestyle and relationship changes.

    All these effects matter and in my opinion deserve to be studied more extensively.

    There seem to be some cases that defy this pattern and now that I said this, I propose the hypothesis that age matters. I might be wrong, as there are many factors to be taken into account, but simply based on direct observation of a not very large pool of people – this is what stands out. The younger the better/easier/less eventful, I mean. Which would actually make sense, as it applies in many other fields like learning a new language, a sport etc. This just occured to me while thinking whose development looked like the smoothest. 🙂

    There are for sure practical actions that can help in this process and I think they are connected to the act of balancing opposing functions. The developing function has a certain vigor and intensity that can be overwhelming for the person who is going through development. Hence there is a need to find healthy ways to integrate it, by balancing it with the opposing function and (maybe less so) with the other functions.

    I thought I needed to explain this, because you guys talked about accuracy and there is no doubt in my mind that CT is accurate.

    So, my whole rant was not about what but about how. 🙂 I agree on what can be done. Yes, we can help people in function development. But how ? 🙂 How can this be done? There are particulars to this and in my opinion we can gain more knowledge by discussing directly with people who have developed some of their functions. Especially those who were aware of function development while it was happening.

    There are CT members who don’t believe that function development with the intention of obtaining a certain result is even possible or desirable and this is a whole discussion in itself. Then there are people who simply say they watched many videos of Jordan Peterson in order to develop their Fe. Who have developed Fe. Or people developing Te who use different techniques in order to tame it. Who do tame it and use it better every day.

    Let’s talk about this. Not here, in this thread; in other threads. There is this reluctance to say I did this to develop my functions. Or I didn’t do anything to develop my functions but while developing them, what I was doing every day was …. 

    What I know is that some people have tried out these tools :

    – willful modulation;

    – visualization;

    – watching others use the function or interacting with them (which seems to have an effect if you just go for Ji or Je, Pi or Pe by the way);

    – spiritual experiences;

    – activities that we think would trigger that function (for example tarot reading for Pi, debates for Je etc)

    Maybe others…?

    These are the ones that I could think of right now. I am sure they all can be improved. I can give examples of what went completely wrong for me in visualization or where some people seem to struggle more in modulation. I think it would be a useful approach to openly talk about what we tried and what has worked for us, as well as where we failed and what we could have done differently in order to prevent it.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    ^ Not to derail the discussion a bit, but the above is precisely the reason I am interested in CT. It’s therapeutic application. This plays into the psychological as well as the spiritual. If we can parse out guidelines for safe, fulfilling, and permanent functional development, we can lay the groundwork for therapeutic tools to help those who are undergoing functional growth or transition. Guiding people through life transitions or periods of growth is already the domain of current psychotherapy, but CT could add an incredible depth of precision that could save time, boost potential for self-actualization, and honestly even save lives.

    I think of all the time I wasted in my teens and early twenties clumsily integrating my Se. I became addicted to various substances and did a bunch of risky, stupid shit. It took me years to ditch tons of bad habits I formed when I was younger, and I’m still trying to get to a healthier place to this day. Imagine if I had a therapist who could see that I was FiSe, and that I was in the process of integrating my Se. Maybe they could have guided me through the process better than I did alone, or maybe it’s just part of the process of integration to have to explore the dark manifestation of a function and also the light. This is what I would love to find out. There are so many people out there who seek out guidance when they sense a change in themselves, and it would be incredible to be able to not have to rely on intuition to guide them. I know this is a little lofty, but it would also honestly revolutionize addict rehabilitation programs like AA and NA too.

    EDIT: Of course, it hopefully goes without saying that this kind of therapeutic practice is an enormous undertaking and responsibility. We are certainly many years off from this possibility, and it needs to be integrated into current therapeutic practice in an ethical manner. It would be used alongside proven and tested methods for therapy. I didn’t read a lot of this thread and watch all of the videos, which I know is a total faux pas. My bad! I got excited. I didn’t realize someone was offering to do a kind of CT therapy in exchange for money. It is absolutely my view that it would be unethical to do this without training and experience in the field of practicing mainstream psychotherapy.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Alice.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Alice.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @alice – yes, I totally agree with you !

    I will give concrete examples in another thread, if we start one. I have a good example of how my attempts at visualization went wrong and how a very simple change in setting would have helped enormously.

    I think this can be done as self help before it gets integrated in mainstream therapy. I don’t mind it being offered as self help/personal development as long as it works.

    But we’d need more information to get even there. In my opinion, the best approach would be to study several cases and see the most common patterns of what people experience. And find creative ways to mitigate the risks. I did this for myself as well as I could and – in support of the spiritual side – I came to some conclusions after a series of synchronicities. But while this was happening I noticed other people were going through pretty similar experiences. So, there are patterns. Which means if we knew them, we could build better strategies for support.

    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @bera – very cool stuff! What you’re saying has me bouncing a lot of ideas around in my head. It sounds like this could be explored through group work, like the kind where everyone sits in a circle and talks about their experiences. If you – or anyone – ever wants to compare and contrast their experiences and try to relate it all back to type, I’m absolutely on board. I’ve already been playing around with the idea of having all the FiSes interview eachother / just chat a little more in depth, but I’m wondering if we could do that same thing with just Fi leads, or gammas, or Ji leads, or unseelies etc etc. This might help us identify more patterns and identify with greater clarity what the types and functions mean in face-to-face practice / communication.

    To use my own type as an example again, what if another FiSe with conscious Se and I talked about what it was like to integrate that function? We could talk about where we may have gone wrong, or went right, or just cool stuff we started noticing when it started happening. Does that kind of conversation sound like a reasonable and responsible way to gather a little bit of data? Sorry if this is getting a little bit off topic! I know you mentioned maybe fleshing out ideas in other threads (and this is already a thread split hahaha)!

    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @alice & @bera – I won’t thread split this right now as it sounds like you are both still deciding how exactly to proceed, but I think these ideas are excellent. Having conversations between individuals of the same Quadra, Type, F Attitude, etc. and with the same overarching topic (function integration) I think would be an excellent way to start the ball rolling. I’d be happy to synthesize the key points from each conversation, with the aim of collecting the info into a single thread to see what looks to be applicable to all types, and what ends up being more specific. If that’s of interest feel free to send me a PM or a message here.

    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Alice – awesome idea ! <3 I can’t wait for this project to start !

    @Rondo I don’t know exactly how the type specific threads could be organized.

    Since there are not that many people who have developed different functions and who are active on the forum, a possibility is to open 8 separate threads – each about developing a function. To be honest, probably even 4 would do – one for Pe, one for Pi, one for Ji and one for Je. Just thinking of Si… Probably only you and tea would talk about Si development. If you make it a Pi development thread though, we also have some people here who developed Ni, who could intervene and then the conversation would have better chances to become lively.

    Since some of us are in development right now, I think it would be good for people who don’t have that specific function conscious yet to also be able to intervene. Because they might already have relevant experience with developing that function though it’s still in development ! And it might be very useful to see their opinions because they are going through this right now, so they will be able to describe everything vividly and make direct correlations between their experience of the function developing and possible behavioral changes. Which will be actually harder to do if you look back in time to what happened 5 years ago or so.

    So, I recommend discussions in each thread to be open for everyone.

    OR – we can see it as an entire journey and organize it as – Pe lead development journey, Ji lead development journey, Je lead development journey and Pi lead development journey. 🙂 

    I know this will look a bit strange but in my opinion it might be more helpful because similar patterns of development could become apparent and similar problems could also be seen easier. We might develop more functions at once and not quite discern exactly the cause of some of our experience. Is it Fi or is it Ni? Is it Se or is it Fe? And while talking about them, we could realize where they come from and also find common strategies that work for the people involved.

    In time it would be good to also open more specific threads, this is just what I see as possibly working now.

    I would like people to be able to ask questions and contribute to the thread no matter their type even if the split is done in this particular way. Because if I – a Pe lead had a certain experience with developing Fi and then talk, talk, talk about Fi working together with Se, I think it’s useful for Alice, an Fi lead who developed Se to also be able to tell us about her experience with Fi and Se, you know?

    So, the split should just be done in order to keep the topics separate and discourage diverging from the subject at hand but not to keep “outsiders” out 🙂 as outsiders can ask questions and can say wait…I experienced this too and I don’t have Fi at all, so it might not be about Fi or even about Ji. Maybe it’s something else !

    What do you guys think? 🙂

    Edit : Oh, you meant a DM. 🙂 I just read “here” :)) 

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Bera.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Cool! If anyone wants me to talk to someone with my dev levels, like Smoggy for instance? I’d be happy to. I’ve avoided video for a while due to illness but I think I’m improving just enough to do this.

    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera – yes I did mean this thread when I said “here” 🙂 I hadn’t exactly worked out the organization of the thread(s), as I figured it would be more practical just to see which people are available for conversations and just have this project start in one thread at the beginning, and if that becomes too large to then start splitting… with the eventual goal of just creating one thread with the synthesis of the info that looks to be the most relevant for function integration. And yes you make a good point about individuals going through function integration right now as also being valuable to hear from, in addition to those who are sourcing from experiences that happened years ago. And I very much agree that anyone should be able to contribute, which is another reason I was thinking to just start with one thread at the beginning.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Rua.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, I totally agree, Rondo !

    One thread would be the best right now.

    I was just trying to think how to split them because I know some people like these splits. They seem a Ji thing – in order to parse out things delicately.

    I personally feel weird about the threads that are addressed to a certain demographic, they are there, it’s not clear to me if I can contribute or not, sometimes I see stuff where I’d react with me too !! but then I am actually not asked about my opinion…😂 Other times I just don’t know for sure if I qualify as that specific demographic or not.😅

    (^A good example of a problem with developing Je. This is my TRUTH and I will say it !!! 😂

    I always felt like this about the bubble threads but now I don’t feel a huge reluctance to simply say it. It’s not such a big deal, just an organization issue.

    Actually one evening I made a list of possible development problems – TV tropes style – but I didn’t share it here yet. This one I called the Sword of Truth. 😅 I have a super soft variant at least right now, I’ve seen worse, it might be getting worse for me too. The point is it’s a problem and it’s because I’m trying to develop Te, it’s a Te development problem. Well actually maybe it’s better for you guys to have this wonderful constructive assertive feedback. 😅 It’s a double edged sword. (A DRAGON with Fe !! 😂)

    So yes, yes and yes ! One thread will be perfect and then splits can be done whenever you’ll think it’s necessary !! I am all for this !

     

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