CT Criticism & Spirituality/Growth

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  • Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    The model is very open to collaborative authorship, research and development. But nobody so far has come forward in that department with the time investment required to make such advances– nor do I blame anyone for that, of course. As ladynerd alluded to, this sort of work is painstaking and arduous. It’s not always fun to crunch numbers and make data tables. And from an ethical perspective I feel it’s wrong to condone pay-less assistance anyhow.

    I have some resentment to clear from my heart because I feel this statement from you @auburn encapsulates the problem of your perception of those who try or tried  to sincerely to help you and CT. This is derived solely from my experience (and some peripheral experience of others that I perceive on this site) of my journey towards this site and its place in my journey. I came to this site as I was recovering from a complete spiritual/psychological breakdown: the lowest point being a completely broken soul: where you question the point of living (being) anymore when the truth of my heart and experience, the truth of my dreams and desires are unable to be expressed in this world and yet that is the only thing that is keeping me alive, to hope that it can and that it will even though it is difficult and the world continually tries to deny you, your spirit, and your existence of having any worth (because worth is defined more our perception of value (money/status) in the “real” world). Also, I felt during this time that I had nothing else to learn: life in this world is full of misery and suffering, a wisdom I learned from personal experience growing up and I thought that maybe other wise people, in philosophy, art and science, could impart that perhaps there was more than misery and suffering ( and the conclusions was what I already knew, that there was misery and suffering, unavoidable and indubitable suffering( but what science added was that the universe didn’t give a shit lol but yet that it didn’t give a shit in a very awe inspiring,beautiful way; philosophy added that though there is suffering/misery it is beautiful and the different ways (theories) of how it pondered its beauty; and art added that it had value and purpose (because other people connect to it, to the truth (your truth) of the wide and pervading, multifaceted life of suffering and misery that we all share).

    Anyway, the journey that started towards healing my breakdown started with the MBTI (the 16 personalities one) and in my opinion I was healed by how I perceived its intuitive intimation of breaking down how actually different types suffer in life (their strengths and weaknesses) because of predetermined ways of being and responding to life and yet that in this process of suffering and misery that there was a purpose itself within it that led to your growth in a semi determined path . This sparked in me life because it showed me that that was more than I knew at that time about the usual/boring story of suffering that was getting less beautiful to endure and I had a clue that something higher and bigger was playing a part in these patterns (by the time I got to the cognitive functions, these structured patterns were undeniable).

    As to how this relates to Auburn and CT, I will tell a story in imagery to reflect more how I felt by it and my relationship with Auburn/CT symbolically and its purpose in my journey.

    >>>>>>>>>>>

    A princess found a map that had flown inside her castle walls, it was beautiful the way it looked and had drawn the world so accurately.

    As she studied the map, she noticed that the map showed other things she didn’t know existed, paths to the underworld and other realms: one passage was marked inside her castle, she noticed!

    She remembered she had walked through it before, unwittingly, without knowing how she got out and without knowing she got in, it was scary to remember her random and fearful descent.

    So she looked for the cartographers’ name to get more information about this map and what she found rather, at the corner of the map, was an old magician’s picture, like Merlin.

    “This must be a magical map”, she thought. “Maybe the map will show me the way once I am in the underworld”.

    She got excited and went to the portal that was marked on the map in her castle. The spot was right below her castle bedroom, where she stood day after day admiring the Sun. She took out the map and waited but the map soon started to burn with flames as it opened the portal to the underworld under her feet. She saw that the flames didn’t hurt her and that the map started talking to her in a secret language she had heard before, but never understood.

    With the fire light of the map, she was able to see the portal and the passage through it only a few steps ahead. She was soothed by the tone and rhythm of the map’s language: she didn’t know how, but the map was guiding her and she felt that she knew exactly what this map was and what she was doing.

    The map guided her to a dark and heavily guarded castle, surrounded by mirrors. The princess knew the magician lived here, she could sense it.

    A boy who was admiring the moon saw her from his castle bedroom. The boy noticed the map and how it was burning. “How is she still holding it?,” he asked to himself.

    The princess knew she was about to meet a very important person,so she prepared herself, trying to look beautiful. The boy left his room and came to the castle balcony now with a mask on, he waited for her to say something at the gate with the guards, still confused by her presence.

    The princess, waiting, finally says to the guards who have different masks: “I came to see the person who made this map.” The boy, now intrigued, from the top of his balcony greets her and asks, “how did you make the map turn into flames?”

    The princess looks up and sees the boy: he is wearing a mask with the same face of the old magician on the map.
    “I don’t know, but it’s been guiding me here in the underworld, I’ve been here before but it was too dark” she says to him.
    “What?” he exclaims, “this is not the underworld, this is the real world.”

    As he said this, the princess began to be on fire herself and became illuminated. “What do you mean? This is the underworld, don’t you see? This map is magical.”

    “It’s not supposed to be magical, it’s supposed to be rational,” he said, scared now at the fire that ignited her. “I am a prince and cartographer, my map is the most accurate map of the world, but it’s not accepted yet by the academy.”

    The princess quickly understood now: she had been in the underworld all along in her castle, she had come back to the real world with the help of the map. She exclaimed, “I think I can help you, this map is magical, let me show you.”

    The prince said, “I can’t understand you, can you please wear this, perhaps I will understand what you are saying better.” A mask of the same face of the old magician was thrown at her from his balcony. She put it on and it turned into flames too.

    “I can help you, this map is magical, it shows the portals of the underworld and delivers guidance!. Can you understand me now?” she asks. “Ah, yes, I know what you mean. But the map needs a key, I was thinking of that. With a key it will definitely be the most accurate map of the world and the cartographer academy will accept it” he responded and went away.

    Frustrated, the princess listened to the guidance of the map, to not give up, and so she sat outside on a rock, waiting until the prince noticed her again.

    While sitting, she understood what the prince wanted, a key. She looked in her pocket and there it was, the key that he needed. “This is all?” she asked herself.

    She called him confidently:”prince, I have the key that you need.” He came out again to the castle balcony, still confused and awed by her mysterious presence and fire, and said “Ah, yes, well I have to test it out, I have other keys I want to test too. I’ll find the right one.”

    “Ok, you’ll see that it works,” She exclaimed. “Can I come in and help you, though?,” she said, “The map is magical, you don’t need the key, you can just speak to it and listen to what it says, don’t you know that? You made the map.” The boy prince stared at her, his old magician mask was getting heavy and tiring, so off he went back in saying, “no, it’s not necessary, it’s too much work, lots of work to be done. And I don’t have anything to give you or pay you.”

    “But all I want is to talk to you and for you to let me in your castle” the princess said as she sat by the rock again, waiting to be noticed again by the prince. It started raining
    and her fire dwindled.

    In the middle of the night, she couldn’t wait anymore and pounded the gate of his castle. The prince came to the door, no mask. The princess immediately saw that it was a young boy and saw the wonder he had about her in his eyes,but as soon as he opened it he closed the door. The boy was scared to let her in even though he knew the flaming map was important to him, but maybe he knew the castle couldn’t support her coming in.

    The princess was angered and so sat back again in a rock, under the rain. Though her fire had diminished, she still held the burning map close to her. She exclaimed in hate to the map, “why am I still here waiting in this rock!”

    She noticed herself/ her image in one of the several mirrors around the castle, she was able to see her tears run down her cheek making a stream that dropped onto the map.

    The map started to disintegrate with her tears but the voice and guidance of the map centered on a point of fire that she held in her hand. She took the flame and placed it in her heart. The fire was consumed into her and she started burning brighter than before. Wings of fire grew on her and she ascended into the sky.

    From there the princess now saw her old castle and the princes’ castle, so far apart.
    Flying higher, she now saw the world and the underworld in their unity and could now fly freely.

    Now she could fly without any castle to live in/occupy because the magical map inside her guides her to what she knows is her kingdom.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    To summarize, CT shows that Mind, Body, and, even more importantly, Spirit are connected as shown by CT. CT is divine knowledge of the spiritual/unseen world too, and I think Auburn knows this by how one timed he mentioned Ti as a god/divinity/entity. This aspect of CT is hidden or forced in the background for some reason (and at the same time suffuses the whole website, just look at its aesthetic! Lol it’s so “wicca” like) and yet it is on the level of divine knowledge of other occult practices of psychic/mystical self-reflection and divination like Astrology, Palmistry, Tarot (and it might be even in a higher level because it maps/grounds and integrates the masculine and feminine aspects, in other words, the ST and NF temperament, and the dichotomy between the concrete/scientific/rationalism and magical/spiritual/mythological).

    In my experience, I tried to help you, Auburn, and CT, but I kept feeling in my interactions with you that you didn’t want any help (which didn’t help because I had my own problems too in asking and receiving help), that it didn’t matter to you whether someone did help with GIFS or not, or help with understanding experience of spiritual journeys/individuation as I tried to offer with friendship, you kept assuming that time and money was the reason you didn’t need any help or the reason someone wouldn’t help. But I think most of us, and if not, just me lol, wanted/want to work with you personally and that was the compensation itself, to meet and work behind the scenes with the magician and artist and being able to have a personal influence in the magic/art itself that will undeniably change/have an impact on this world :P. I don’t know how it will specifically, but in the visions I see of the future, I intuitively sense that it plays a part and also that I myself was meant to come to this site to learn this knowledge as part of my own spiritual awakening/transformation and journey.

    • This topic was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Auburn.
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    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    @Scientiam

    As much as I was amazed by the sheer elaborateness and depths of that message I can’t say I agree the message as it fully stands. You seemed excited about doing the self help session(s) with me and Jay as three of four Betas. Auburn was fully on board with that possibility. It looks like that excitement also fell apart. I am not making point against you so much as I am genuinely curious of how and why the let down took place.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 4 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
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    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I think most spiritual systems show the way to our unconscious and possibilities of growth. They frame it as occult knowledge and add  content that tends to be interpreted as having a divine source.

    CT simply presents  psychological processes. It doesn’t claim to be showing a way to God or to any divine being/state of mind. Also it doesn’t claim to be occult knowledge, it’s knowledge about the human psyche (that – amongst other drives also is lead by thirst for the sacred). And we sometimes tend to view unconscious content as sacred or demonic or both…

    So, in my opinion the imagery might overlap a bit with the one used in spiritual systems because CT attempts to cover all this archetypal content that these systems also aim at understanding…we always tried to understand ourselves and the world around us. We’ve always been on an arduous search for meaning. And I think spirituality reflects this search for meaning and offers real and useful insight about our minds, as well as practical wisdom !

    But, from what I gather, CT is  aiming to describe the connections between vultology and type, not making any spiritual claims.

    Of course, Auburn, please correct me if I am wrong.

    I use tarot myself for self exploration and I actually am pretty sure the alchemical processes Jung described in his books appear in the Major Arcana ! And can be used as a tool for growth and potentially for function development and integration. Just think of Temperance or Judgement or the Hanged Man. Or Strength. We can apply lessons drawn from their imagery to how we integrate functions !

    But at least for now we don’t know more that would confirm any spiritual belief. At least from what I see.

    There is synchronicity, that we could maybe explore more. But it’s not connected with CT theory, it just happens to be on most members’ list of interests as it is also a part of Jung’s work !

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @scientiam – Your story is… beautiful, poignant, and painful. The little boy in me would love to help you, and I do feel grief over how I didn’t respond to your request. You’re right that it hasn’t always been a lack of will, time or desire from others to help CT, but also will and time from me– and I’m sincerely sorry about that.

    The esoteric aesthetic of the site is indeed the product of a life-force driving CT forward which cannot abandon the soulful and, what may be called in Jungian psychoanalysis, the archetypal feminine. If the theoretical architecture of CT, the codifier and quantified signals are exemplars of the ST, then the mythological is the dimension of NF which is indispensable to a true psychic understanding.

    Because of a sort of meta-awareness, the very understanding of CT (and humanity) itself compels me to view even CT as holistically as possible, and thus to honor both ST and NF expressions as equally valid. The problem of the presentation of CT is simultaneously the problem of depicting Psyche and World to every sort of psyche, in the various ways that psyches understand it to be true and real.

    The academic world is ST territory, but indeed not the only way to understand, nor the only source of understanding. Still, academia and the mystics are too far apart from each other and this fissure is a severe gap of integration in the human whole. CT is a model that aims to explain how all of these dimensions are unified, and how even the academically inclined and the mystically inclined are playing out their own psychic software in the very portrayal of life the way they see it.

    So, in taking on the task of quantifying Psyche, I remain torn between every polarity and duality of humanity.

    Thus, in seeking to do justice to every side, perhaps I do no full justice to any. I cannot yet venture into the numinous properly, and take CT into its latent trajectory as a spiritual growth model, nor do the academics feel satisfied with the rigor thus far. Perhaps CT is too ambitious in trying to do everything, but I’m convinced I’m standing on the right balance-point (compass), as a bridge between the two that needs to be reinforced. The more this bridge is fortified, the closer heaven and earth will grow.

    The Material & Spiritual Goal of CT

    The primary claim of CT– that mind and body operate in unity– is itself this very claim that there is no gap. The axiom at the root of CT is the assertion that psyche is quantifiable, and that trespasses into the mind-body problem. Because to insinuate that a person’s psyche — its mythological narrative, their daimons and muses, their fantasies and the like — can be traced to their body and to their genetics, is this very claim.

    This is not a distraction for CT, as some might think, it’s actually essential for CT to solve its core problem. CT cannot escape the implications it makes when it ties together mind and body, and hence why the mythological dimension remains paramount to the work.

    To do this activity, it requires constant mediation between bodies and minds; perpetual consultation of both. If the body displays one thing, and the mind does not follow, there is a problem. We try again. We fail. We try yet again until body and mind are wholly reflective of one another, thus solving the mind-body problem and bringing the world of magic into science. But to do so one has to be equally a magician and a scientists. As it stands I’m a mediocre version of both, but that is the situation as far as I can tell.

     ~ ~ ~

    (p.s. There is ample space in CT for the expansion of both dimensions, as well as the synthesis of the two. My energy tends to be fixed in the synthesis, so that I don’t tend to enter the (magical/archetypal) beyond what I can justify from material evidence, nor do I pursue materiality lest it relate to answering questions of the (magical/archetypal) dimension. But that doesn’t mean those avenues should be closed off for others and indeed I think they loop back around and ultimately help expand the endeavor we’re undertaking here– once the mechanism of action is properly understood.)

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 4 weeks ago by Auburn.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    But I think most of us, and if not, just me lol, wanted/want to work with you personally and that was the compensation itself, to meet and work behind the scenes with the magician and artist and being able to have a personal influence in the magic/art itself that will undeniably change/have an impact on this world :P. I don’t know how it will specifically, but in the visions I see of the future, I intuitively sense that it plays a part and also that I myself was meant to come to this site to learn this knowledge as part of my own spiritual awakening/transformation and journey.

     

    Can’t speak for Auburn but if I were leading a project, this type of thing would make me want to crawl under a hole and never come out 😛 .

    I mean that in the kindest way… your story was beautiful @scientiam but ‘the artist’ and ‘the magician’ did a lot of work and magic before any of us ever arrived, so I think it would be presumptuous for anyone to expect that for compensation for ‘showing up,’ we deserve to have a really strong influence in the creation process.  As an artist myself this really upset me, actually, on a visceral level.  Keep in mind I’m speaking for MY reaction not Auburn’s.  I am speaking generally here – so please take this on a more spiritual,  ideological and ethical level rather than a specific comment about CT.

    Obviously, the artists’ community impacts the artist just as the artist impacts the community, but this is an organic process that cannot be forced, unless someone wants to sacrifice the art in order to do so.  An artist cannot work, socialize, and meet every personal need all in the same breath. Just something to keep in mind. If you want to be supportive – here are five suggestions.  1. Offer a strong and specific critique about something within the theory (not discounting the theory as a whole) – but don’t expect any immediate response. Be patient.  2. Learn the signals and become a vultologist.  3. Donate some money.  Surely you can afford $3 a month for something you believe in strongly?  4. Refrain from plagiarizing parts of his work and then misrepresenting it so you can charge people for your own counseling.  5. Ask Auburn what he needs.  The reward is the inspiration, knowledge and insight that you gain from the work this person has labored over.  In my opinion (for whatever that’s worth), anything beyond that is a wonderful gift, but not mandatory.

    Just offering my two cents. Make of it what you will.

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    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @epicentity as the story suggests, there was way more going on than just what you saw (like for example me not trusting courtjester and figuring out my relationship with him and whether it was true). I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything in my story, I wanted to release an emotion that was still tugging at me for my own healing and to let Auburn and CT community know that because it pertained to them.


    @auburn
    , thank you for helping close out this chapter in my life: from the story I told, I hope you got that it was meant to turn out this way and so don’t feel any grief (but I do think its still/was important that I let you know how I hurt). Its purpose was to learn a spiritual/emotional lesson for my healing (among the many we learn over lifetimes) to show me the truth of myself and to end cycles.

    Some advice I would give you that I see as a flaw and that nagged me a bit , and I say this lovingly, is that if you are working with Spirit and the Mother Goddess in this endeavor of CT, you should realize that you honor the different psyche/world viewpoints not by you neutralizing your own and hiding yourself and being a pinche perfectionist in your creation, but in letting the different modalities that exist outside of you to let them also co-create this world you can imagine because in doing that you also honor your own psyche/spirit and your gifts, and because the others who help have their own magic and powers, that can far exceed our own native ones, that no one single person has, including you. Let the ST masculine create and riff of your authentic creation of you and your world, don’t mimic their “magic” beyond what you already dabble with. That means, I feel the imagery that comes to me in in the message I am channeling is that there is little boy (the same one from my story) in a wood house in the countryside, it’s lush with green and blue and beautiful clouds, he wants to fly right out the window. But he keeps looking back to his grandfather, grandmother and other elders for permission, but man he really wants to fly! His/the elders don’t give a shit, their just walking around staring at the ground floor, cautious and observing every step they take. The grandma is the only one perhaps checking in what he is doing, but she knows he’s a boy, he’ll get hurt playing around, but it’s what boys do, she expects you to try and jump into the sky to start flying and get your ass hurt a little bit and you don’t know, maybe a magical cloud will catch you, do you trust it?. Man that boy really wants to fly though lol, but equally, man, the doubt is real with this one of his own power of flight, which he doesn’t realize it would be more fun to do and try than to just to daydream about flying and how that would go about “technically” while staring out the window and then  staring back at the elders for permission who only keep looking down at their steps and who are not even concerned with you because you are a indeed a boy and therefore is allowed to play and fly  🙂


    @animal
    , I actually think some parts of your message to me was pretty nasty (especially this part “Refrain from plagiarizing parts of his work and then misrepresenting it so you can charge people for your own counseling”), it assumed a whole bunch of me and my character in order to defend what you thought was perhaps an attack on Auburn, which is not. Stating your true feelings and telling someone how their actions (intentional or not) made you feel (even if they hurt you) is not an attack but a an opening to healing and to better understand each other. In that case, I don’t need to defend myself against you animal, but here is some thing that I thought stood out from your message that I thought was harmful to anyone hearing it:

    -The thought of letting someone else, a group or a person (artist or not), system etc.. determine what you deserve. You determine what you deserve and your value and worth, if other’s don’t see it then it shouldn’t matter and their not meant for you anyway and avoid the usual/poisoning thinking that the value/worth is determined by money/status. I used to see Auburn and CT as more worthy than me because of it’s external success and its status, it “reflected” a paradigm of my own ideal life . But one thing I learned from my journey is that you should determine your  own success and you should also determine what you are worth, not others. Otherwise, this is insecurity.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    -The thought of letting someone else, a group or a person (artist or not), system etc.. determine what you deserve. You determine what you deserve and your value and worth, if other’s don’t see it then it shouldn’t matter and their not meant for you anyway and avoid the usual/poisoning thinking that the value/worth is determined by money/status. I used to see Auburn and CT as more worthy than me because of it’s external success and its status, it “reflected” a paradigm of my own ideal life . But one thing I learned from my journey is that you should determine your  own success and you should also determine what you are worth, not others. Otherwise, this is insecurity.

    I agree with this, so I’m not sure how this is meant to undermine my message. I would personally never determine my worth based on my status or a comparison to how much recognition someone else got. Based on the first paragraph of your response, it sounds like you’re talking to yourself here rather than to me. For the record, I do support this sentiment and I’m not sure what made you think otherwise.

    As for the first part of your response, it’s my opinion and it’s not going to change. So, you can take it or leave it.  Really, it doesn’t matter what I think because your worth isn’t determined by my approval or disapproval of your actions. It was just me sharing my honest feelings about the situation as an onlooker who is invested in the project’s welfare. I am just one person so feel free to discard what I said if it doesn’t resonate with you.  If you really believe that your attempt to make money off Auburn’s project – by suggesting you can counsel people to develop more functions – was in his (or CT’s) best interest, then you can ignore this and move on with a clear conscience. But if my comment nags away at you, then look inside yourself and ask why.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
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    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    Based on the first paragraph of your response, it sounds like you’re talking to yourself here rather than to me. For the record, I do support this sentiment and I’m not sure what made you think otherwise.


    @animal
    , yes, of course I am also talking to myself, to remember the principle: just because I have learned the lesson doesn’t mean I have recovered from it fully. Your tips made me think otherwise that you didn’t support the same sentiment, but if you say you do then I believe you.

    As for the first part of your response, it’s my opinion and it’s not going to change. So, you can take it or leave it

    That’s what I thought based on the feeling that it held within it and that’s why I felt there was no need to defend myself, I can only tell you that you don’t know me and that I think is horrible to have an opinion (which is always incomplete) and treat it as absolute knowledge.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    That’s what I thought based on the feeling that it held within it and that’s why I felt there was no need to defend myself, I can only tell you that you don’t know me and that I think is horrible to have an opinion (which is always incomplete) and treat it as absolute knowledge.

     

    What opinion exactly are you talking about? I never claimed to have absolute knowledge of you, or your motives. I told you that, regarding your motives, you should check in with YOURSELF. If you feel your actions were ethically sound, you are right. If my comment nags at you, then feel free to consider what I said.  If not, dismiss it. That’s my stance.

    The opinion I’m referring to which “isn’t going to change” is that the “artist” or the “magician” doesn’t owe anyone anything. Just because someone likes the art, is not a reason that the artist is ethically forced to include that person in the creation process. THAT is the opinion that won’t change.

    I don’t have an opinion about you. There’s nothing I could change about my ‘opinion’ of you since I don’t know you. I offered my “sense” of the situation and I said you can consider it for yourself and feel free to discard my thoughts about YOU if they don’t resonate with you.

    But having spent 39 years alive on this planet, and 35 of them striving to realize my artistic visions, I am not going to change my opinion on the idea that an artist does not owe their ‘fans’ entryway into the creative process of their art that they have been working on for decades. That had nothing to do with you and was merely an opinion about ethics.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
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    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @animal, I think we are just misunderstanding each other lol ok, I respect your idea/ethics/opinion about artists and that it’s their choice whether they allow any entryway into their craft. I am not against that and I didn’t say I was, but I am not going to explain the story I wrote which I don’t think deals with this problem,  maybe that’s how you saw it though or interpreted it. It took me a while to understand, but I feel we are not in the same conversation and if that’s the case then forgive whatever assumptions I made about what you wrote to me.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @scientiam
    My commentary was about the rest of your post – not the story per se, which I thought was beautiful. But ok, I feel the same, no hard feelings or hate was intended by my comment. I am very direct, and don’t beat around the bush much. So if something stands out to me and I decide to enter the conversation, I just point out what it is. I don’t assume that I’m right about someone’s motives, but I cannot possibly be wrong about how something hits me, so that’s the only thing I’m sharing: my impressions. After I share that, I’m over it. I don’t like to draw any conclusions about anyone without their input. But I just shared my impressions because there was an inconsistency there which stood out to me personally. I cannot possibly emphasize enough that none of it was meant to be rude to you as a person. It was just “I notice something is off in this particular set of sentiments” or that is how it struck me.  But I’m not one to hold on to negative judgments of anyone unless they REALLLLLY cross a line. Which you didn’t at all. 🙂 Overall, I’ve enjoyed your presence here, even though I’m not in the discord. 🙂

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I split this topic off to its own thread.

    I’m glad you two came to a (tentative) understanding.

    I find myself agreeing with both of you somehow! @animal , I agree about how CT isn’t obligated to include others in the creative process (whether or not that was scientiam’s point.) I very much appreciate how much you care about CT, and I can see now that part of the issue I’ve created — and how I’ve opened up the community to chaos/disarray — is due to a lack of a clear Use Policy on my part. And in the absence of a clear Use Policy, you’ve acted as a safeguard for me! Heh! I’m grateful for that.

    But it also made me realize it’s high time for it. So with mod help, I’ve written a draft here in the site rules: https://cognitivetype.com/forums/topic/rules-etiquette-2/

    And I plan to also see a lawyer about how to draft a legally enforceable version too, to protect CT’s intellectual property, going into the future, since CT is on the verge of a new stage of growth.

    Scientiam, I hope to reply to your message too, a bit later.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Auburn.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn

    That’s a good point – I guess that is what I was reacting to!  I just read the Use policy, and it touches on all of my concerns and ‘visceral reactions’ on behalf of CT.  Well done, and very reasonable!

    I just really treasure your theory and where you’re going with it. I’ve envisioned amazing things it can do for the world. And it’s the only project I feel really invested in which isn’t “mine” — which is nice – but the knowledge has already helped me understand how to portray characters who are another type, for instance.  So I am happy you’re implementing more straight forward policy on this matter. I definitely don’t intend to be mean to anyone.. I’m just protective. <3

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    I decided to talk about the situation here and how I feel about it and did a personal tarot reading on it. If my assumptions don’t  agree honestly with your reality, then please let me know so I can gain clarity both in mind and in heart.

    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    My best to get to the truth about my reflections toward your video. Let’s do it >”>

    I wish there was someway everyone could get to there highest profitable and/or inspirational point without taking away from those who made CT with their blood, sweet, and tears.

    I wonder a lot about how much copyright laws might be destroying intentional inspiration in their attempt prevent selfish gain. Actually… I how do I figure that for myself… anybody?

    I am guessing all this comes down to how much about one’s purpose is seen. Are they in pursuit of a cause? Do they seem dedicated enough to recycle a great deal of revenue back into their project. Do they talk about slowly part timing their day job? Have they thought about collaborating within the inner establishment, but were too excited and had to do their own thing with the knowledge? Do they know that what they are doing is inconsistent with science, yet think it is more fun and/or practical relative to some popular alternatives?

    I guess we need truly flawless lie detectors to before our humanity can get to such a level. I guess that’s not too bad considering so many the ancient civilizations that had to fall with the great libraries lost among each of them. I guess this all awakens to the unpleasantness of natural selection in it’s limitation of quantum realities. At least for this era. Hopefully someone may have a better answer.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    This might change for me, but so far it seems like JiNe and SeJi do a better job of not taking things personally than most JiSe and NeJi I’ve observed. Before someone can have wrong impression of you they have an impression of an imaginary concept that they see is tied to your physical body. This conceptional tie down may advance, but will never be separate from that person’s mental model of the world. Anything in that model that is truly negative must also be harming them on some passive level that is capable of becoming active given the arrival a reverse situation. Do to a seemingly advance degree of acceptance I believe that animal is not harming herself in that passive light. Thus is incapable of meaning any harm to @Scientiam according to my evaluation so far. Auburn having accepted this help also does not reflect this physic so far.

    Spoiler for update

    This might change for me, but so far it seems like JiNe and SeJi do a better job of not taking things personally than most JiSe and NeJi I’ve observed. Before someone can have wrong impression of you they have an impression of an imaginary concept that they see is tied to your physical body. This conceptional tie down may advance, but will never be separate from that person’s mental model of the world. Anything in that model that is truly negative most also be harming them on some passive level that is capable of becoming active given the arrival a reverse situation. Do to a seemingly advance degree of acceptance I believe that @animal is not harming herself in that passive light except for ‘protective’ which implies that there are characters within her psychic which feel the need to be protective, instead of consideration or justifying, against other characters. Thus is incapable of meaning any harm to Scientiam in any regards other than the sense of ‘protectiveness’ so far. @Auburn having accepted this help does show a reflection of the protectiveness. It may just be important to get a flesh out understanding of ‘protectiveness’ and see if there needs to be another phase that can be a harmonious substitute.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @EpicEntity

    Nurturing and Protective energy are both necessary parts of humanity.  A child must receive father energy (protection, challenge) and mother energy (nurturance, unconditional love) in order to evolve well.  A father’s archetypal role is to tell the child his performance was not up to par so the child may strive to do better, to win his approval. This helps the child build confidence. Meanwhile the mother’s role is to accept the child no matter what he does, and to show unconditional love, so the child develops trust and stability. Without both of these influences, the child will be crippled.

    I responded viscerally to a gap in protective energy at CT. Lately, with liberal politics, there has been an demasculisation of society. Masculine energy – including protectiveness, challenge, and standards – has been shunned, but it is necessary for the species nonetheless. So the CT crowd is behaving in a feminine manner and lo and behold, a woman comes in and balances this out. Perhaps that’s what strikes people the wrong way? Would this look better if I were a man?  Note that I am a very visceral person and if I saw a child lacking nurturance, I would jump in with empathic feelings – but in this case, I saw a child receiving unconditional love despite running amock and misbehaving. And I am not referring to Scientiam alone when I say “a child,” though he did make quite the scene about his hurt feelings – I’m talking about the general outlook around here. The reason I left the discord is because everyone was carefully tiptoeing on eggshells in an effort to all get along and meld into one big happypot, which doesn’t interest me, as this behavior does nothing to thwart predators and passive-aggression. Pretending there’s no problem (or no human nature) doesn’t mean the problem (or human nature) goes away.  So, I show up when things need balance. I don’t do this on purpose. I’m a Libra, and Libras react viscerally to injustices. I have Mars in Sag, and I jump in with fierce fire and then move on once the devil has burned in my wake. My fire lights up the truth and exposes what others could not see in the dark, murky waters of “let’s all get along.”   This is another way to view things, if you want to.

    Instead of looking at my psyche alone, look at its function in the bigger picture. And then look at yours, too. =). I am the trickster in this scenario, so I am the man when the energy is ‘girls’ and I am a woman when the energy is ‘boys.’ The trickster knows not right or wrong. It knows only to stir things up in order to transform that which needs transforming. The dust settles in my wake, and I move on to my next hunt . 🙂

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
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    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
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    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    Until I say these things I am letting other’s perspective of me go manipulated. I am unemployed (until Monday… maybe… land-crafting labor), sexually inexperienced ( half my neighbors somehow think I am a womanizer 🙃), welfare freeloader (no excuse). I believe it is possible that my presents may give an unhealthy sense of lingering to the CT community. At times I wonder if no matter how much I believe I am acting in a way that is true to my core this lingering presents may infect others (especially younger minds).

     

    So now I laid it out like Eminim @animal I would like to hear your opinion of this. That’s if you have formed any from what you may have seen and remember of me so far.

    As painful as it might be I could only serve truth better from it.

    PS: I’ll be paying more attention to how you refine the CT community.

    PPS: I’ve been thinking about spending more time studying your website. I’m interested in how my models, regarding the use of Se, will expand.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @EpicEntity

    To be clear about me refining the forum, I will say that  Auburn’s idea of Se as a ‘trickster’ has resonated with me increasingly, the more I learn. I’m not saying that my “entire identity” rests upon this principle – I have an overdeveloped sense of identity already 😀 ….  so I don’t need to inherit one from CT. But the trickster really resonates with the way I see myself anyway, the archetypes I’ve connected to, etc.  So I’ll just say that I’m not sure if I’ll always be refining. Sometimes I’m rebelling, pointing out errors, reacting emotionally etc.

    At this point I’ve been around CT for more than a year and Auburn has proved himself, in my eyes, to be a strong leader. I studied the content of the forum for about six months before I joined and it matched the results of a system I had been developing with my group, which lead to typings that were identical to the ones CT came up with, including many of our own typings. So I knew I backed the theory, because he saw what I saw and took it to the next level. Once I joined, I had good feelings about his character and leadership, but our cognitions are very different so I was not always sure where he was headed with things. I wondered, would he stand up to the task?  It is in my nature to reveal the weaknesses, holes and problems with the entity I’m exploring – not necessarily on purpose, but it’s instinct. I don’t want to ride a sinking ship, so I start pushing and prodding, which ultimately forces the leader to show their true colors.  And show them, Auburn did… and I was pleasantly surprised.  I always respected his mind and character, but over time my respect for him as a leader has grown.

    I am very drawn to strong ideas, strong characters, and strong people who fight against all odds to make their dreams come true.  I am less prone to defend self-victimizers in general. I will defend someone who is truly vulnerable at any given time, but a lot of what others view as “vulnerable,” I view it as self-pitying, manipulative nonsense, designed to get attention and manipulate situations to their own favor, even as their actions only serve to weaken the entity they supposedly want to support.  So for the most part I’m pretty immune to self-serving pity parties. But when someone is truly strong, and doing something because they genuinely believe in it, you can bet I’d hiss at anyone who is trying to bring them down. Those are weak links, and need to be exposed as such, for the entity to retain its strength. It also provides an avenue for people to reflect on their own weaknesses and step up to the plate, if they so choose.

    In the current political climate, everyone hates the rich guy. I’m that person who has empathy for someone that has more than me, and thus I am not impressed by petty jealousy. If someone wants to have more, we all have 24 hours in a day and we can work to get more. I’m chronically ill, and I’ve been obstructed every single step of the path, but I still strive as best as I am able through physical and neurological illness. So I’m not very patient with big hordes of whiners going “omg, Animal is the big bad leader who viciously imposed rules on poor little me” — nor do I have much patience for this when it is directed at other fellow visionaries.

    When I was a child I was very shy and had a hard time socially, but when I saw someone being bullied who could not defend themselves (like mentally ill or crippled children) I would jump in and physically position myself between them and the bullies. But I would not participate in “omg, what a jerk, go tell him off because he slighted me…”  etc. Which is why I had very few friends. I was always willing to help someone build up strength inside of herself, but not to fight battles that only serve to weaken the parties involved.

    Anyway this is kind of off topic but maybe it gives you some insight into how my visceral reactions work. Getting back to the trickster, I am not ‘committed’ to this as some kind of principle. I just find myself reacting on behalf of these instincts, to fight for that which is evolving and, in doing so, force that which is stale into motion. In my mind, I’m dancing along with the rhythm of the world, which is always turning, growing and changing, and I automatically come to embody “death and cathartic rebirth.” On other forums I have called myself Volcana. I am the volcano that erupts and, in my wake, the weak principles burn – only the strong ones survive. This destruction paves the way for creation.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
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    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    @animal, I would like to apologize to you for snipping at you about the comment of plagiarism you said in your post, but specifically because when I read your whole post I knew intuitively that you weren’t “intending” to hurt me, but I was hurt and bothered anyway by the comment and decided to lash out at you. It would have been better to ask you and clarify what you meant. Funnily, the way I got to this realization was through a tarot reading saying I had offended the divine masculine instead of honoring it and that if I didn’t apologize I would get karmic justice. I thought about it a little bit and thought of situations, including this one, where I might have done wrong but decided to ignore it until the next day, which is today. So this morning I woke up and I looked out my motel window and prayed to get more information and reason on this “karmic justice” that was coming to me and which I needed to apologize for. Right after I asked for this I pulled open the window for some fresh air and got my fingers hit and caught by the window mechanism: I knew right away that this was my punishment lol and that it related to you with when I saw your posts.

    Anyway, I think you represent the divine masculine energy primarily, very hot/passionate/”brash” lol, and I am sorry for not clearing things out first when I had already sensed you were not being malicious to me (although maybe just too brash for me lol since I’m barely working on my rawrrr) . I see the purpose in your philosophy of destruction and acting as a force of nature (something I am integrating in and balancing in myself as I represent primarily the divine feminine and the principle of passivity/receptivity/attraction).  We both (all of us) have these energies in complex, beautiful ways and so we should honor them.

    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

     …tarot reading saying I had offended the divine masculine instead of honoring it and that if I didn’t apologize…  …I knew right away that this was my punishment…

    I’m not one to say “tarot reading are you kidding me” right of back. To me that’s closed mindedness to the highest order. I usually see it as kind of interesting and I absolutely love how ‘Persona 4’, the game, made use of it in both it’s gameplay and story telling. The use of it in video I find to be pretty interesting as well especially when gather your thoughts as a form of prayer. Now when I read this instincts of apology and punishment… the feeling put in words are like “mmm I don’t like where this is going”.

    First thought: It’s not just apology and punishment, but also bless and reward that can be just as fallible. Think of all pain as hidden pain and all pleasure as hidden pain so that you can see what inside you gives that experience it’s significance. Letting something outside of you determine the significance of an experience without your vote. This influences a lowered conscientiousness.

    Second thought: tarot is a great opportunity to scramble your usually assigned significance toward any experience. Thus you have advanced your vocabulary of interpretations. Soon enough you could fit any situation into all tarot cards and be able to stick to the one or few that bring out the most creativity or even relatively competitive reality.

    Third thought: is for something to be able to punish you… you have to be able to punish it back… because at the most essential level their can be no ruler. I guess that’s a sign of oneness.

    Conclusion: I am mostly leaning toward pain and pleasure in tarot not being such a good thing. Not sure how to fully articulate this. If anyone else sees what I am trending then feel free to thread together what you can. I had to get this out in someway because it feels bad imagining month staying shut.

     

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @scientiam

    Thank you so much for your kind words 🙂 In return I’d like to apologize if I was too brash.

    I am happy we came to an understanding. I have more to say about this but a busy week coming up, so I may be a while. I just wanted to say I saw your apology and I appreciate your effort to reach out and understand where I am coming from. Also love the thoughts on masculinity etc. More soon  =)

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Animal.
    Gnosis
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Well since we’re replying via video…

    (this is a response to the first ~20 minutes of your video, as I didn’t get all the way through it– due to time constraints– so my reply is restricted to that context)

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @Auburn I can’t make a video now, but I want to say briefly that I feel very similarly about your system and its potential, and that’s what I meant by envisioning great things it could do for the world. I have the exact same frustrations when it comes to enneagram. I know that my group has touched on something closer to the truth and the real purpose of the system. I know our typings are more accurate and that we’ve dug up the gold from the previous authors and separated that from the bullshit. I just know it! We have a long way to go, still – but it frustrates me that when we go on other forums, everyone is just believing bullshit.

    It’s harder to elucidate enneagram through objective signals and we are not ready at all for a project of CT’s caliber. We’re still working on finding an objective way to present the basic truths that we’ve seen, in a way that is clear for others to see too. But my investment in it, personally, extends far beyond ‘intellectual interest.’ If enneagram were taught properly in grade school, I imagine so many  psychological problems and interpersonal misunderstandings that could be prevented!  If we all understood the automatic mechanisms running in the background that cause us to act in terrible ways.. we would self-correct much more effectively.   And so forth….

    This is why I understood, or sensed, the scale of your project right away. It was clear you were on the same page about where typology can go, at least your system. (I imagine you’ll see that in enneagram too once we consolidate our ideas more effectively.)

    And you’ve been a model for us, in how to do this, how to organize, how to show the world what we see. We are very aware that we’re not there yet, but we also see how it can be done.  Still, even now, I get frustrated that people with huge followings are releasing idiotic videos about outdated and nonsensical views of type. I feel like even if we do touch on something true, we won’t have a following, just because we’re more focused on that process of delineation than we are on a public audience. To focus on garnering a public audience is to cut corners in the artistic process, since the product is never FULLY ready.  And that, of course, is the problem with Ji.  Although I am more Je heavy than Ji heavy, I do relate to this, because I need to feel like the thing I’m presenting is TRUE, pure, and does what it’s meant to do, rather than just presenting some half assed, unfinished raw splat to the public. But even if I had something I felt confident in, I would be bored and annoyed by the process of advertising, and the time it takes away from the project itself…..

    So yeah, basically what I’m saying is “I hear ya.” Soon, if my medicine continues working, I’m hoping to do some public videos because I need to get publicity for my own writing project. At that point I’ll talk to you about ways I could draw a crowd to CT also, if I manage to do this in a presentable way. I hope that can be helpful.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 2 weeks ago by Animal.
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