Sociology & CT

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Pre: Until a time comes that formal statistics are measured, this will remain an educated guess, but I felt it valuable to give my opinion on certain topics related to the distribution of types -- and society's construction. Especially as it relates to fields of psychological interests. So here goes..!
Sociology
The distribution of types is uneven among careers, domains of interest, and so forth. If type is taken to be a biological reality, there's no absolute reason not to find a person in any given field, but yet they distribute themselves unevenly by personal choice.
But I wanted to start with some novel/counter-intuitive clusterings that I've come across, to set the stage for how the sociology of type actually seems to work.
Intellectual Circles & Debates - Are dominated by Je-leads. Yes, even TeSi and FeSi's are more common in the most popular public intellectual circles than the NiTe and TiNe. It's a classic sort of assumption in sites like celebritytypes.com that if a person's an intellectual heavyweight, they are an INTx type, or perhaps an ENTx type.
But that is not the case. And this is for a few reasons. Those who we see in the public eye, making actual cases for their points, are heavy in Je, regardless of type. Therefore, although it might be the case (?) that NiTe's and TiNe's more often belong, by ratio, to the cerebral/skeptical/existential/atheistic variety of person, they will not represent the majority of those in the "spotlight" in said domains. Instead, we might find more FeSi's with developed Ti in that domain, odd as it may seem, because of their rhetorical ability.
Here we have TeSi Richard Dawkins, TeSi Ayn Rand, TeSi Bill Maher, TeNi Ben Shapiro, TeNi Richard Feynman, FeNi Carl Sagan --- all of whom the majority of typology circles would class as INTJ or INTP of some variety. And this relates to the next point:
The biggest introverts are wholly Off-Radar, not even on the internet - People who are Ti+Ni, or Ni+Fi, or even just introverted with a high Ne/Ni function (and no E function development) are virtually nowhere to be seen. As I've been typing people publicly and privately for years, I've noticed that all the "real" Ni+Ti types, and so forth, are highly non-participatory in both chats and forums. They are not found in any public circles, and I've only found them in video submissions which they often elect to keep private. The FiNe l--- and TiNe l---, for instance, hardly exist in the public eye and our samples of these types are almost all volunteers. This is true of the distribution of participation on this forum, but also others.
So you get TeSi's like Dave Powers who self-type as NiFi, all the while the real NiTe l-l- are very infrequent posters and often cannot handle the pace of real-time chats either. So, ironically, you have forums like INTJforum and INTPforum where the most active voices end up being NeFi l-l- types, NeTi types and others who have an INT temperament but have the energetic prowess to circulate life into the arena.
Introversion really is a removal from the world and that includes any medium of expression. Any time anyone is talking, posting and conversing.. they're engaging at least one extroverted function. If they have no conscious extroverted functions, then this will rarely happen and be pretty brief (or be 1 ultra long post they spend a week writing just right). The assumption that introverts are on the internet is false now. Perhaps it may have been true at its inception, but from my canvassing over the past years I find that the most introverted of people aren't even on the internet. The internet has become a new, second "objective" world.
The "INxx" Types ≈ Flat Affect - Another curious thing I have found is that the "most" INxx types of all are those individuals with flat affect (or a history of flat affect) of any type variety. The prototypical "deep" / "edgy" / "profound" / "esoteric" person is not an NiTe/TiNe/FiNe/NiFe... but someone who has undergone submersion. Sometimes these individuals are also NiTe/TiNe/FiNe/NiFe by coincidence (i.e. Marylin Manson, Chris Corner) but other times they're not.
As someone who has dipped into the waters of submersion for a period of time, I find that I "relate" a lot more heavily to certain people who share this experience -- regardless of type. This, I think, is why I have resonated with @animal - despite her being the complete opposite of my type. And it may be why you (animal) don't relate to other SeFi as much as those who have known "the other side."
Flat affect really is a powerful psychological variable that differentiates people from one another, which is why I found it important to add it to the new dev levels system. It can make the difference between an experience of life that runs parallel to yours, and one which doesn't, placing type aside.

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There are more factors than these, but I'll leave it here for now and move towards some implications.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Practical Implications for the Community
One of the challenges I'm faced with as an admin and vultologist is that the above realities are not well known and run counter to people's expectations when encountering CT. So for example, the majority of people submitting videos are not INxx types, but they think that they are. Mostly they are Pe-leads with an optimistic curiosity towards new approaches and if they have flat affect, it's all the more likely. Then, those who really are NiTe/NiFe/TiNe/FiNe don't stay and post for very long, due precisely to the fact that they are said types. (And the same applies to a less extent to FiSe/TiSe/SiFe/SiTe) Most forum and discord traffic comes from our Pe/Je members.
Unusual People
The other challenge I'm faced with as an admin and vultologist is that, the cross-section of non-native INT/INF individuals who encounter a topic such as CT, are usually of irregular developments. If there's an SeFi on a typology forum, as we have some here (which I value!), they're not gonna be standard representations of SeFi's. Because those who are standard representations... aren't on here. Likewise, the kind of FeSi's we might find in a place like this won't be standard in their developments.
So in brief, the kind of people that presently comprise our community are mostly cognitive-extroverts with very unique developments (double-introverted SeTi's, double-introverted NeTi's, etc) who aren't fully engaged with the real world due to their specific expression, while they do have enough engagement to manage something like a forum presence.
Therefore this community is not at all representative of the 16 types in a way that we can talk about them fairly and objectively, removed from the idiosyncracies that make up our community. I mention this not to excommunicate anyone, but to point out a curious blessing/problem that needs to be digested when factoring in how we go about trying to understand the types while using ourselves as primary reference points.
This problem also likely won't resolve itself easily over time, as it'll always be the case that submerged individuals (of all types) will find more motivation to:

1. 1. Go into the question of "who am I" and become immersed in self-discovery topics such as typology
2. 2. Go through individuation & develop lower functions out of necessity and struggle with the chaos in their life brought upon by submersion

 
And so, instead of trying to fight against this reality, I find it most useful to just keep that in mind, and to understand the construction of the kind of demographic that would be attracted to typology -- and not expect anything else from it. As we expand and go forward, we'll likely come across many more individuals (many cognitive extroverts) with irregular developments, and more introverts that will be wholly non-participatory. 😀

[Juan E. Sandoval]

TL;DR - Vultologically speaking, from what I can gather, actual NiTe/NiFe/TiNe/FiNe are a participatory minority even among forums allegedly meant for them. And most of the online typology population is cognitively-extroverted types with irregular/introverted development + flat affect.

[Thana]

These are interesting findings, and ones that I find both surprising and unsurprising at the same time. As one of the alluded to non-participatory (or not as active as some) NiTes the reasons for my quiet presence boil down to these (in no particular order):
Time - Simply put, I have too many offline commitments that I have to follow through with and one of those commitments includes spending less time online (I can get lost in it by obsessively reading and gathering info, which segues to my next point).
I'm just content to observe - I have a history of just observing forums for months to even years at a time before I actually fully participate. In the meantime, I read posts, gather more information, calibrate and recalibrate my understanding of the material, and get a feel for the atmosphere and its members. This imparts a non-committal but enjoyable experience of the forum. I also don't want to provide ignorant or half-baked posts/texts when in reality those ideas could've been better researched and formulated.
Pace and Thought-Process - I actually prefer forums over chats because they're more conducive to/aligned with my natural thought process. It's funny that you mentioned that some types would write a super long post that took them a week to construct because I operate similarly to that XD. My thought process is slow, intuitive, laborious, and meticulous, one not well suited for fast-paced back-and-forths or chats. It's akin to a story unfolding in real time - each thought, sentence, and paragraph seamlessly weave into each other to form the over-arching idea and to abruptly fragment and break up that flow is disruptive to my natural rhythm. Hence when I do post, my posts are long-winded. But fortunately, I am adapting to the pace of the chats which is for the better.
 
 
P.S. I almost didn't respond to this thread and just regulate myself to observing ;P 😉

[TBerg]

I can definitely relate to the sense of "submersion" of certain of my traits that has prevented me from expressing myself in chat in certain ways.  As someone who viewed himself as highly rational for much of my life, the Ti aspect of my psyche got a lot of development, and I hardly knew what I was missing.  The other parts of my life didn't seem to invite development of whatever manifestations my other functions may have brought.  This is related to a lot of personal factors, but I can probably say that it also relates to so many online quizzes telling me I am INTP, my submersion of functions other than Ti, and the fact that I hardly understood what Ni could even be.  This is even though one of the cognitive function assessments I found online had my Ni at the top.  I just figured that it was a fluke because my submerged functions didn't show up, and INTP seemed the best fit as a whole.
I can also say that the journey onto which you helped to guide me, Auburn, has resulted in my greater rounding as a person, even though I still have a ways to go in resolving other weaknesses of mine.  I would have never realized that I was natively good at dealing with others, if I just get my thoughts out of the way, if you hadn't shown me how that could be so.  It was also a relief to find out why I was having so many seemingly inane arguments with INTPs on the INTPForum.  We simply didn't share perception functions, which led to completely different ways of understanding information.
It is also interesting to observe how this trajectory of self-understanding allowed me to become more ready to handle things in the moment, as I can now joke and respond to many situations on Discord and my Twelve-Step meetings with an ease and depth I never thought possible.  This is in part due to the demonstration of the CT community the potential of a developed Se.  Make of this what you will.  I just wanted to give one more data point to consider, as well as express my appreciation.

[Animal]

I am probably closer to Auburn's idea of an "average" SeFi than the others here.
For most of my life, I had zero interest in joining forums or playing video games. I was too busy actualizing my visions in real life.

[Animal]

..

[Ash Rose]

Lurking around the CT boards has been one of my favorite pastimes for years now, but it’s true I rarely post comments here. This isn’t true on Facebook where I was one of the more active and prominent members of the MBTI community before I had problems with stalkers and had to quit. One thing that’s been a constant pattern is I rarely ever make original posts. I always respond to another’s initiative. That’s pretty much the case in every aspect of my life: rarely do I initiate and almost always I will respond if you initiate interaction with me. That’s typically how I identify other introverts as well.
The thing about these CT forums that makes me so reticent to comment is people here tend to make EXTREMELY LONG posts! It takes all of my energy to get through all of them, and by the time I finally reach the end of a thread typically every single thought I had about the topic has already been mentioned and I have nothing interesting left to add.
For me to keep up with the Discord chats is impossible. It’s like I’m trying to squeeze words in edgewise amongst extremely loud, rapid-fire minds monopolizing the conversation. Also, it bothers me when I miss out on every aspect of the entire conversation, but that would require me to sit and actively engage for extended, uninterrupted periods of time instead of just popping in occasionally.
Actually, that pretty much sums up my IRL interactions as well. I’m extremely soft-spoken, glitchy, and slow to formulate sentences. Few have the patience to hear me out, so I tend to engage with those few one-on-one at a much slower pace.
In formal classroom settings where discussion is regulated, however, I will tend to be one of the ones to speak up most and monopolize the conversation like an insufferable know-it-all. When it comes to informal groups I prefer lighthearted joking, sarcasm, and teasing where I can interject in short, spontaneous bursts. Perhaps that’s how I flex my Ne!

[Aletheia]

(or be 1 ultra long post they spend a week writing just right).

I loled @ this Auburn, it's too accurate ?
The funny thing is that in a lot of ways I enjoy participating in discussions here more than speaking face-to-face with others irl. But practicality demands that I use the majority of my social energies/time in irl interactions.. so I end up almost never posting 🙁
Introverts run out of Social.. ppl just dun understand that talking to us is expending a limited resource!! >,<
I find I don't have much trouble articulating once I engage in a conversation. I can really get into it and ramble on if we're talking about something interesting! But then I have conscious Fe, so perhaps I'm not a good example for the topic of this thread 😛

...it’ll always be the case that submerged individuals (of all types) will find more motivation to:
1. Go into the question of “who am I” and become immersed in self-discovery topics such as typology
2. Go through individuation & develop lower functions out of necessity and struggle with the chaos in their life brought upon by submersion

Leave it to the bonkers to quantify the phenomenon of type! mwehehehe yus ^__^ There's some truth the idea of the insane genius. Submersion is oft what gives an individual the emotional gravitas to pursue the 'big' human questions. Unfortunately that's also the reason we end up with cults..

For me to keep up with the Discord chats is impossible. It’s like I’m trying to squeeze words in edgewise amongst extremely loud, rapid-fire minds monopolizing the conversation.

@Elisa - I relate a lot with what you say here. It's the reason I don't show up on discord, save for when I find myself with at least a few hours of uninterrupted time (which is like.. once in a blue moon?) I find it frustrating to feel I don't have the proper time/format to sincerely consider what's being said and construct a relevant reply. Do you ever start to write something, but by the time you're finished the conversation has moved on and it's no longer relevant? ?
I relate a lot to what you say here as well:

In formal classroom settings where discussion is regulated, however, I will tend to be one of the ones to speak up most and monopolize the conversation like an insufferable know-it-all.

Have you tended to be the teacher's pet because of this? That's what would happen with me in high school, then the other kids would either resent me or ask me to do their homework ?

[Faeruss]

Adding another data point, it has been my experience that the pull of introversion is very real for me, even having two extroverted functions conscious. If you were to observe me on my daily goings, you would think I am very introverted, I don't seek people either online or in real life, and keep to myself and those close to me. However, people often will think I am an "extrovert" upon meeting me. It's as if the extroversion comes out naturally when it is needed, but not before. Maintaining a continual social presence is for sure a taxing thing, even recently on discord, even if natural and enjoyable, and I don't foresee this ever changing. Introversion is here to stay even if I wear an extrovert's clothes and scent.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

This is interesting feedback. Thanks guys for coming out of hiding! <3 I'd like to facilitate and encourage a better interaction style for you guys too.

The funny thing is that in a lot of ways I enjoy participating in discussions here more than speaking face-to-face with others irl. But practicality demands that I use the majority of my social energies/time in irl interactions.. so I end up almost never posting
Introverts run out of Social.. ppl just dun understand that talking to us is expending a limited resource!! >,<

Yes, I can relate to that.. especially when I was younger. I'd like to test out a new idea: I've made a new board called "Ask a Demographic" where you can initiate threads towards a specific member-base by putting the demographic before the thread title in brackets; more details here. This way if you'd like to have a more targeted discussion among a given demographic, you're free to do so.

[Ash Rose]

@alerith Sorry I didn’t get the notification of the tag! Out of all the people in this community I’ve always found you most relatable, so I’m glad you see some similarities also!
(I’m trying out the block quote tool for the first time now, so hopefully it doesn’t look awkward. My awkwardness with this forum format is another factor that’s been holding me back from posting more often.)

”Do you ever start to write something, but by the time you’re finished the conversation has moved on and it’s no longer relevant?”

Yes, that sums it up perfectly, Alerith. It’s like being the last person to get a joke and laughing long after everyone is already onto another subject.

“Have you tended to be the teacher’s pet because of this?”

Well, my youth was mostly misspent rebelling, so I was more like Donnie Darko than teacher’s pet. I probably gave the teachers something to war bond over in the teacher’s lounge, and I often got the “you have so much potential. If only you would apply yourself” talks. Things changed in college. There I became the pet of those professors that probably were a lot like Donnie Darko in their youth as well. That was when the other students would attempt to get me to write their essays or do their poetry homework. I suppose it’s just important for me to find my niche before I blossom.

[Aletheia]

@alerith Sorry I didn’t get the notification of the tag! Out of all the people in this community I’ve always found you most relatable, so I’m glad you see some similarities also!

No problem @elisaday! Yes, I've noticed you seem to be coming from a similar place in a lot of what you say, I definitely resonate with you as well ^^

(I’m trying out the block quote tool for the first time now, so hopefully it doesn’t look awkward. My awkwardness with this forum format is another factor that’s been holding me back from posting more often.)

myea, this interface is a bit awkward isn't it ? - case in point, I had to awkwardly copy-paste that awkward smiley!
(mayhaps a tutorial video would be helpful @auburn? ^__^)

Yes, that sums it up perfectly, Alerith. It’s like being the last person to get a joke and laughing long after everyone is already onto another subject.

Good analogy! Indeed it's a bit humiliating, isn't it? It's deterring when the situation makes you look more socially awkward than you'd otherwise be >,<

Well, my youth was mostly misspent rebelling, so I was more like Donnie Darko than teacher’s pet. I probably gave the teachers something to war bond over in the teacher’s lounge, and I often got the “you have so much potential. If only you would apply yourself” talks. Things changed in college. There I became the pet of those professors that probably were a lot like Donnie Darko in their youth as well. That was when the other students would attempt to get me to write their essays or do their poetry homework. I suppose it’s just important for me to find my niche before I blossom.

A rebel eh? ? Donnie Darko is one of my favorite movies ever btw..
I can actually relate to what you say here too, but it was kind of the other way around for me! I was a very quiet and passive child, but in college that's when I began really speaking my mind and would get in debates with the teachers ? A few of them ended up hating me. But many became friends and we'd have rigorous discussions exchanging ideas after class.
I've seen it that us Ji-leads indeed tend to find (or often create!) a unique niche for ourselves over time ? What do you do now school/career wise, if you don't mind my asking?

[Ash Rose]

@Alerith That is so interesting! I wonder why a feeler would learn to behave later in life while a thinker would learn to rebel later on haha!
My bachelor’s degree is for Fine Art Painting, and currently I’m employed at a sculpture studio. We work on sculptures of all types and materials, but we specialize in plaster casts. If you watch Grimes’ “California” video you’ll see her dancing around in a studio that looks exactly like where I work. I mostly do the final stage perfecting and finishes with paint, so I’m a “faux patinist.” Basically I can make any material look like any other material. It’s a very Si job! ?
What about you?

[Aletheia]

@alerith That is so interesting! I wonder why a feeler would learn to behave later in life while a thinker would learn to rebel later on haha!

@elisaday - hmm.. maybe you were initially more in-touch with your autonomy? I was rather adaptive Fe as a child :p

My bachelor’s degree is for Fine Art Painting, and currently I’m employed at a sculpture studio. We work on sculptures of all types and materials, but we specialize in plaster casts. If you watch Grimes’ “California” video you’ll see her dancing around in a studio that looks exactly like where I work. I mostly do the final stage perfecting and finishes with paint, so I’m a “faux patinist.” Basically I can make any material look like any other material. It’s a very Si job!

That's an awesome job in an awesome work space! ? Do you dance like Grimes while you're painting too?..
It's cool you work with imitating materials. I did/do that too in 3D software. It is rather Si isn't it? But it takes keen perception all around, methinks, to capture the minute qualities that differentiate a specific material :3

What about you?

I got a BFA in Web Design with a minor in 3D Animation. Worked for 2 years at a medical animation studio, which was pretty much my dream job. I was terribly underpaid tho ? Now I do freelance web design, and also have a hobby as an integrative healer. I hope to make the latter profitable one of these days ?

[Ash Rose]

@alerith
“@elisaday – hmm.. maybe you were initially more in-touch with your autonomy? I was rather adaptive Fe as a child :p“

Oh, that’s totally true of me as a child! It was my way or no way. The stubborn Taurus bull stereotype certainly applied then! It’s not very true anymore, however, as it seems I’ve become quite adaptable in an attempt to overcompensate. I’ve been typed as 953 in enneagram which is supposedly the chameleon tritype: triple hider of the true self.

“That’s an awesome job in an awesome work space! Do you dance like Grimes while you’re painting too?..”

I absolutely do! Thank you!

“I got a BFA in Web Design with a minor in 3D Animation. Worked for 2 years at a medical animation studio, which was pretty much my dream job. I was terribly underpaid tho Now I do freelance web design, and also have a hobby as an integrative healer. I hope to make the latter profitable one of these days”

Oh, a medical animation studio does sound like a dream job! It’s too bad that you couldn’t continue. It’s interesting to me that I told everyone I found my dream job when I first started at this sculpture studio and continue to tell them that to this day. It’s so important to me that even through extreme financial hardship and accruing more and more debt I wouldn’t give it up! Oh, how people have tried to get me to quit and move away also! It’s only now, four years later, that I’ve managed to obtain the wage that will allow me to stop depending on credit cards and begin paying them down. I suppose in that way I do still maintain a stubborn level of autonomy. My dreams have always been the most important things for which to fight, from my perspective.
I’m not sure what an integrative healer is, but I’ve always been interesting in perusing art therapy. I’ve been studying astrology, tarot, reiki, witchery, typology, VI, and other such methods as a way of nurturing that. Is that similar to what you mean by “integrative healing?”

[Alice]

Touching on the topic from the original post of not having a pool of individuals on this forum that are very representative of the world at large, I would say this this problem may be mitigated in the future as more people learn how to type others. As members of this forum, we have a psychology that has lead us to this site for one reason or another. As we learn how to accurately type others, we can begin to interview people who have no affiliation with this community. I think the only real samples of non psychologically inclined individuals we have right now are people in the spotlight - celebrities. That, and maybe samples of people from youtube, but those people chose to put themselves into a kind of spotlight too by putting themselves on a public platform. These people across the board probably slant toward a higher Je development.
For example, if I could ask my coworker who doesn't give a shit about anything having to do with psychological theory or the spotlight, that might be an important insight into how people in lives removed from theoretical psych develop in their type. This could be true for anyone who learns vultology well enough.

[Author]

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