My impression of Fi (Ji) from my point of view

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  • Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Talked to Remy yesterday, and wanted to post a short post about my Ji / Fi experience in general. In order to not bomb the chat with pages of text.

    I struggled to define, being permeable, and having an open heart. Now, I think I know how to explain it..

    I have always been an idealist, a person who values fairness and morale. I care, feel, etc. But that is human. My impression is Remy might hit on something when called me Elflike, or that I reminds of the Tolkien elves in some way in vids I posted.

    It’s something with the quality of Ji, which might exist in many, if I’m typed correctly as Fi, and I assume so. I know I destroyed my typing vids slightly, more on that later in the post.

    The quality if Fi, is conscious, having ideals and an ethereal quality. Like standing a bit out in the crowd, in my case It is the etherealness I want to illustrate with an image.

     

    A floating castle. In my case the Ji is the castle which might soar quite high with its ideals, but need the land for experiencing warmth, and feeling the human touch. It’s not coldness or void of life, truly, not with its opposites in place, reaching out and providing contact with the human world. Without the opposite, it truly would be void. This is how I tentatively would explain being “permeable”, the outwards seeking heart of an floating etherealness.

    Frankly, without an open heart, you would see something quite negative, an floating lofty idealism without being rooted in human touch. It’s not that metaphorical, if I go introvert without using the opposite, it really is a chilly place, and not liveable, so one has to seek out. If nothing else, reading a book, or chatting, writing diary, forums, etc!

    If I were to explain my experience of what the opposite is, without the conscious castle inhabited (it being unconscious), it could be a common nice human, or a sociopath. It is, surprisingly, the floating ethereal castle of lofty idealism about the world which makes the extroversion grounded, and not just doing what the world needs to do, without any care of thought for what, who or where. Understanding this were a bit hard, I suspect, myself trying to fit in. I can “film” or “act”, as a being, contrary, if I truly wanted to, I did study the “British” way to walking, talking and being to try understand how to speak the language properly. It also mean I can project an character, an imago, on myself, making myself an “other”, take a role, act contrary, be and act slightly different as situations demand. Also a human quality, but for me it goes down to an active core body, that is the bodily energetic as part of a role, “if I want to”. Including some Meisner method ish ways of going “Native” in a language. I figured out I needed to do this to improve my language, with zero training whatsoever in the Method. I’m still the silly me never telling lies though, so, I am sorry about not realizing this!

    That part, I am deeply sorry about! I think I destroyed some of my CT signals, since, in the last week, I had to realize I simply assumed this was country based ways. It is, slightly, but mostly it is not. It’s Vultology as Snarling smile, and mostly Ne signals. So I fear I might be an Sensor with natural abilities in acting, and I am sorry for this affecting typing, since I assumed this were not possible, faking your natural “you” with a language.

    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    To continue your castle metaphor, could we understand unseelie (heart unopened) Fi archetypally as a kind of castle with very high walls? Examples of this in myth may be the princess in the tower, Repunzel locked away by her wicked witch mother, which could represent the heart of Fi locked away by a kind of jealous protectiveness. Unseelie Fi can certainly be cold, but maybe a more morally neutral way of understanding it could be that unseelie Fi is distant, maybe a bit suspicious of the motives of others or protective of oneself. If seelie Fi at one end can be totally and completely vulnerable, open, and permeable, I think we can suppose that unseelie Fi could be a lofty floating castle of ideals that has realized it needs some self-protection. That can come across as haughty or cold, even mean and dismissive, but I don’t think it’s inherently negative in any way. I am certainly biased, however 😛

    Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Um… My post basically makes no sense. Which Is why I posted my understanding before I decided not to. If the world gives me a beating, I seek refuge in my core being, turn a bit unemotional, but continues operate on automata, doing what I can. This is the most dysfunctional, and a bit of my strongest side in a way?

    The CT system.. Is good, but the description, imagination and experiencing a thing is very different. In some ways Socionics is way better in actually describing, due to only being descriptive and omit details of common psychology, but therefore also being a bit more useful for recognizing what is going on. I know what Pi and Pe is, and the feel, the innate feel of the oscillations.

    Ji and Je… The solution to what you describe lies within it’s oposition, Je. There is FiNe women on youtube doing Fi – Te stuff everywhere, from Tibees the math nerd to (I think) Mindmastery, the Unseelie Jungian Psychologist personality coach, giving coaching classes to people and doing vids  on psychology. Some of the “Cognitive” systems as MBTI is a bit broken, so the YTers fail to “find” their type, which, imho, is not a failure of typing, or self-discovery. But the system. If it’s broken enough, it hurts them if they “find” their true type.

    • Fi-Te is a nice psychologist. Ti-Fe is a nice Psychologist

    The only way out of “Ji”, any Ji, is Je. The difference is a bit artificial, due to it being a theory, a model. Real humans is more complex. CT is quite open about humans growing and becoming something more, though still seemingly a bit “rigid”, which is.. Good and bad. True comprehension of CT don’t hurt, I suspect MBTI might. But I see analytical comprehension is useless and futile if it got no.. Purpose. My own curiosity is the truth, I want to find the truth of this, since it might be useful for me. Look at the YT channel of the unseelie FiNe MindMastery, and see the nice girl who believe she is INFJ, and rightly, benefit. Several of the Jungian systems seems broken, not in an analytical sense, but in a sense of humanity, taking care, nurture, having goals, purposes, guide and make people grow.

    Basically: MBTI messes with people who think too much, or put their faith in it, if they truly think they are X, Y or Z. The basic R&H Enneagram is too broken to be dangerous, the Jungian systems…

    In order to comprehend Pe, Pi or Ji I had to start discard the entire type, typing, system, and find my truth myself. Follow my heart, see where my goals and ambitions lie, follow myself, my logic, my feelings. It’s the only way to comprehend how the typing works, as far I see it. I as a person is more… Continental, as in Kantian moral or a bit Descartes ish in some aspects, far from the Analytical Philosophy Ive used actively. Existentialism is the weirdest, oddest philosophy I have ever read.

    Ok, one example. The religions of the Judeo-Christian world got a fixation on symbolism of unity, purity, ideals and high hopes. High on the list of almost every single one is the Temple in Jerusalem, which is as mangled an ideal as the fantasy world of Elder Scroll’s Elf origin of “Aldmeris” continent, which, diverge along with  the (fantasy) racial memories. My example is, I am imagining reconstructing the Jerusalem temple would perfectly be possible if all the different “Factions” could agree all wanted “IT”, and it’s possible if all gave access to it, for all the others. Aka: cooperate. Only bummer is there currently stands a structure partly on top of what we assume is the interior parts..

    The high moral ideal is the “floaty” castle, the realism is the empathy inherent in me knowing a lot of my idealism is not possible. Te should, and can, help people grow. It might be my best side, and the best way for me to get out of my theoretical mindset and be realistic. Land on the land underneath, and experience true life.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Starshade.
    Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    To continue your castle metaphor, could we understand unseelie (heart unopened) Fi archetypally as a kind of castle with very high walls? Examples of this in myth may be the princess in the tower, Repunzel locked away by her wicked witch mother, which could represent the heart of Fi locked away by a kind of jealous protectiveness. Unseelie Fi can certainly be cold, but maybe a more morally neutral way of understanding it could be that unseelie Fi is distant, maybe a bit suspicious of the motives of others or protective of oneself. If seelie Fi at one end can be totally and completely vulnerable, open, and permeable, I think we can suppose that unseelie Fi could be a lofty floating castle of ideals that has realized it needs some self-protection. That can come across as haughty or cold, even mean and dismissive, but I don’t think it’s inherently negative in any way. I am certainly biased, however 

    I need to use some casual daily terms, ok? Not Jungian terms.

    It don’t work as that. For me. Feelings is extroverted, receptive. I always is, outwards. The ME is not always that visible, if all fails and life is hopeless, it’s what remain, the shiny beacon leading on. It basically mean the feelings get amped if pushed, and I am not that good at realizing it’s unhealthy. Not me. I understand I broke my typing videos due to something, possibly wanting to avoid being as depressed looking, or cold, as I perceive. It’s taken me some weeks now to realize that is wrong, and the chill me, is also the healthy me. The feeling, nice me wanting to help others.

    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Hey @Starshade !

    You can’t really spoil a video to make yourself look like you are another quadra or at least this is what I think. Well, actually I can think of someone who might have, so…hm, ok, maybe you have a point and I should watch your new videos.

     It also mean I can project an character, an imago, on myself, making myself an “other”, take a role, act contrary, be and act slightly different as situations demand. Also a human quality, but for me it goes down to an active core body, that is the bodily energetic as part of a role, “if I want to”.

    This makes perfect sense to me. Because you are Si conscious, which means you developed Si, which means…at some point in the past when you were still not Si conscious, you started modulating Si, without being aware of what you were doing. If we start with the assumption babies are not born II-I, which I think we do. Which means you definitely can slip into other skins. You CAN do it because you DID it. If someone did something, most probably he can do it in other circumstances too.

    So, I don’t think this is connected to being Se-Ni but rather to being a reviser who learned to wield a conductor function very well. How else would Si be conscious? In an Ne lead? Or in the end Pi in a Pe lead?

    And it is, I think, an important point. That the inferior function was at some point not conscious, so you brought it to consciousness by modulating it. How else? How does a kid learn to speak? To be honest, there is no other way, this is the way. By imitation. By role playing. By modulating something that isn’t there yet. But then somehow grows into consciousness.

    By projecting a character, an imago, making yourself an “other“, taking a role, act contrary, as situations demand.

    Does this make sense? Could it be this? And not necessarily Se-Ni? (the same would apply to an Se lead developing Ni though, this is why it drew my attention. 🙂 )

    but for me it goes down to an active core body, that is the bodily energetic as part of a role, “if I want to”.

    I totally agree, but I think it applies to all of us. All of us switch to different energetics in our bodies. 

    This doesn’t say anything about your typing, by the way, it’s more what I think about function development dynamics in general.

    I love the image.

    There is more about feeling, that could be parsed out, but it’s very late and I’m tired.

    I think it’s important to think what feelings are going outwards and in which ways. I don’t mind the word feeling, never did. It’s fine. But how does this work?

    Because some points of confusion could be :

    – as a Pe lead, there would be the Pe enthusiasm and energy going outwards;

    – Fi does leak outwards (for example with unbridled radiation);

    -Fi with little Te counterbalance can feel closed off and Te has its own sort of fire, whatever we call it.

    But, of course, at face value “feelings are going outwards” does sound like Fe. Soooo…maybe you’d like to dissect this?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Bera.
    Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I dissect it, with honesty.

    I need to leave Si outside the discussion, though, for a second.

    We all might worry, encounter our own difficulties in some ways.

    Me, I deal with difficulties with trying to be positive, but also hide from some issues. Social insecurities, the feeling of not being enough, self erasing tendencies of not finding self worth, but outwards. It’s not easy to admit, and before truly understanding MBTI, I considered INTP, and basically reacted by defending my emotions when I got typed it. Part of my type exploration was to figure out how the disparity between type, flaws, and the incoherency of the systems. How emotions fits with thinking functions. But… It was feeling based, yes.

    I came here trying to figure out how I can be both logical and emotional. Wearing my heart on my sleeve, be totally open and be cool headed, not bubbly or showing feelings all the time, and not showing my true self if I hit reality face first, smack in the face.

    So the me who decided to be typed… Were agitated, semi-panicked, feeling insecure but at same time, fighting the tendency of freezing in front of cameras by trying to show myself anyway, assume this system works anyhow. I got absolutely zero knowledge of acting, at all. That is important, and I think I can do most CT signals if I’d want to, consciously.

    I probably got dyslexia, but at same time love reading, and picked up some Swahili in Uni, along with what I know of Portuguese on my own. I love learning, and is attracted to some of what I’m obviously horrible at, and thus always has gone up-down-up-down-up-down in grades in language, excelling and having big issues at same time. That do not help me feel secure. Neither do my stupid attempts at trying to bypass my native tonal patterns in my native language (it got pitch, but is also tonal), which I now understand, probably just sounds “funny”, but should not affect anything. Getting stuck on analysing gibberish don’t help…

    FiNe
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    Can you simplify discussion for me and write main points?

    I see self-identity problem here. For NeFi this could be unconscious signals from aux that want to be developed. Lack of human touch is a sign of Te loop.

    Socionics gives people illusion of understanding in the same way as some astrology do. This could give people a sense of comfort but not real value.

    The problem with jungian systems on the internet is misinformations and misunderstandings. Most folks online can’t use them properly. But it is a great help for someone who struggle with ego development if she or he know how to use it and have a good source.

     

    Maybe a little offtopic:

    I recommend mbti-notes.tumblr.com if someone look for professional advice when it comes to emotional issues. I have young NeFi friend. I talk with him about his problems and find that theory on that site was on point and correct. I give him some cues how to use Fi better and get out of Te loop and this worked for him.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    This… Will take some addressing in order to get properly, and not turn into an sorry and sad affair, and I’m deeply sorry if this seems critical, of the CT and the system, but..

     

    I’m sorry but, I know what Te is, how it works, how it do not, and how it operates. And….  That’s my view. No ill feelings or meanings with this, just my views on systems which seems very far apart, and quite incompatible in some ways, from my point of view on this.

    FiNe
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    Thank you for answer. I appreciate.

    I understand that you have another point of view. But your massage isn’t clear for me. I would like to you write a main points that I could ralate to.

    It’s tricky but mbti-notes is not about mbti or at least not in general. There is a need for time and good will to get to know it beyond superficial lvl to make sense of it. And with bad beliefs about jungian typology it’s hard to motivate someone to go deeper to get proper big picture.

    As a clarification for my side. In previous post I wrote theoretical model that might or might not have relation to you. I was hipothetizing ‘as if’… I see I made a mistake not get familiar enough with what you wrote, and put my stataments in bad way as if I talked about you. But I didn’t. My bad.

    But what I just saw, you match well profile of NeFi both in CT with signals and in JCF interpretation on your psychology IMHO. But nevermind. There is no need to discuss it. No problem.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    FiNe
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    A floating castle. In my case the Ji is the castle which might soar quite high with its ideals [Ne], but need the land for experiencing warmth, and feeling the human touch[Fi]. It’s not coldness or void of life, truly, not with its opposites in place, reaching out and providing contact with the human world. Without the opposite, it truly would be void. This is how I tentatively would explain being “permeable”, the outwards seeking heart of an floating etherealness.

    I don’t know much about attitudes of heart but for me it’s nice description of Ne and Fi working together to create, a whole person.

    Frankly, without an open heart, you would see something quite negative, an floating lofty idealism without being rooted in human touch. It’s not that metaphorical, if I go introvert without using the opposite, it really is a chilly place, and not liveable, so one has to seek out. If nothing else, reading a book, or chatting, writing diary, forums, etc!

    I think for NeFi go extravert without using introvertion is a chilly place. Ne may feel as introvertion becouse how it work. Reading, writting, doing something out of personal interest is a something for Fi and the way to get out of Ne – staying in own head and – Te doing cold caltulations, and meaningless tasks.

    If I were to explain my experience of what the opposite is, without the conscious castle inhabited (it being unconscious), it could be a common nice human, or a sociopath. It is, surprisingly, the floating ethereal castle of lofty idealism about the world which makes the extroversion grounded, and not just doing what the world needs to do, without any care of thought for what, who or where. Understanding this were a bit hard.

    We can see sociopath mode when there is a loop between Ne and Te, and Fi being unconcious, disabled.

    The CT system.. Is good, but the description, imagination and experiencing a thing is very different. In some ways Socionics is way better in actually describing, due to only being descriptive and omit details of common psychology, but therefore also being a bit more useful for recognizing what is going on. I know what Pi and Pe is, and the feel, the innate feel of the oscillations.

    CT is good as theory explaining scientifically phenomenon of types as it is. I agree learning CT might be of some help but for self-developend and practical usage it falls shortly for now. But we can use JCF as psychological tool and people do it with success.

    In my view socionics is more like spoiled hybrid of JCF, “CT”(with pseudo-scientific backbone) and sociology. A bad theory to put it simply.

    As for NeFi – tention between Pe and Pi is a core source of ego drive and will be for the rest of the life. Pe is supressing Pi. Doing Pi stuff for Pe-lead is nessesary but at the same time it’s hard. The easiest way or a proper way get to out of Ne is Fi in this case.

    “Cognitive” systems as MBTI is a bit broken, so the YTers fail to “find” their type, which, imho, is not a failure of typing, or self-discovery. But the system. If it’s broken enough, it hurts them if they “find” their true type

    I think in the opposite way. JCF systems are by no mean perfect but can be great tools. But people fail in interpreting them, fail in typing themselfs and fail in self-discovery.

    I think I will add somethin later but I am tired of writing.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by FiNe.
    Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I.. Think that image was choosen quite random thought, FiNe, you should know I tried learning the codifier by seeing on myself, and typing myself natively, done… 5-8 vids, and I am Ne unconscious in daily life mode natively, as the codifier works due to my limitations of course.

    Something about my type, the delvopment, the people I’m supposed to remind… Does not click at all. Nothing. My typing feels completely wrong, to me. It.. Simply, is not me.

    Bera: I can, make, a video making myself look like different quadras, but that is extremely, difficult. Basically due to being shy, I stotter, stop, freezes up and ends up looking dow, to the sides, etc. Sitting and looking straight into the camera, as myself, is extremely difficult. But, also I assume my type signals is more clear in native language, which is of no suprise to me.

    Also, I’ve pondered the core of Si, what it truly, specifically mean. I doubt I have it. Auburn gave me Si for an untexted vid where I talked about the border realm between sleep and awake state. Is that typical of Si? I’d appreciate having it, since it really is something I need around 😀 So.. Thanks for showing me that, if indeed my achilles heel is one off my conscious abilities. 😀

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Starshade.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Starshade.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Starshade.
    Starshade
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Ok, I’ve thought a bit, what is going on, is simply loss of direction.

    Working on getting someplace, I decided to build myself, so to say. Shape my destiny. What happened is a mix of physical exercise, studying, being more helpfull and talkative, and shaping my destiny. I started be more extrovert, and getting out.

    From being a “loner” posting 2 posts a week on forums, I started be more active, real life as “online”, got more energy. From being someone having enough to deal with myself, I started looking around, and tried be there for others. Extroverting more. I still is far from a “practical” person, as say, my father has been, always walking around, building, doing things, working on practicalities. I’m more inclined, or have become, a bit more people oriented, though.

    What drives me can be explained as an inner ego, a will, a desire for something. Be, grow, be enough, work with something worthwhile, and not just give in. I were simply overloaded. Exhausted. It is not Ji which I described, but a total loss of Je.

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