Eye vs face centric

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  • sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    The signal I find most difficult to spot is eye vs face centric.

    Usually (always?) I leave it out, because I dont understand it well enough.  Yes, I understand the description but I often think the person is neither-nor.
    In the codifier under face centric, Hubbard is making what I see as eye toggles, i.e. to me it seems like his face are following where he looks.  I can see that his torso is not moving at all but I see that as “rigid posture”.  Also with Ayn Rand I see a face that follows the eye movement.   When I have looked for head centricity I have wanted to see no movement at all when eyes are moving, but then this can happen in brushstroke toggles.  So I am a bit lost here,…no rather completely lost.    Can anybody help?

     

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    heya!

    i wonder if you’ve seen this vid:

    specifically at 4:15+ ..?

    I add a few more diagrams and explanations there too. But let me know if this still doesn’t get to the core of it?

    sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    Yes, I saw that video, but its good to look at it all again (and the other videos you did at that time, they are very instructive!).   Still,  regarding eye/face-centricity I dont get it. When I look at the two subjects illustrating face centricity, to me it looks like head follow eyes. Not so much Ayn Rand whose eyes are moving very much around, but I would say that although she tends to not let her head follow her eyes more than necessary (rigidity),  there is still first some movement of the eyes and then a little later the head starts to follow, but only a little since at that time the eyes have already changed direction and the head are tending towards following in that new direction, but then the eyes moves again and so on.
    With Hubbard its more difficult to see if eyes or head is moving first,  but it seems to me that the head is following very quickly after the eyes change direction. At least it is very difficult for me to try to see it the other way around, but maybe they move at the same time.
    What is very obvious to me though is that their bodies are totally unaffected by the head movements.

     

     

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    Just wanted to check in to say i haven’t forgot your question, and am actually gonna be finishing the upload of the final (Ne vs Se) tutorial video today, which I think will contribute to this discussion. And it’ll allow me to differentiate out this cue with you better.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Auburn.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    Okay, so in this video I touch on something relevant between 15:35-17:15

    Spoiler:

    This is the graphic used in the video:

    (found on this page: https://cognitivetype.com/se-4-eye-head-parallel-motion/ )

    So in TeNi L. Ron Hubbard what we’re seeing is his Ni/Se axis when he does an Eye-Head Parallel Motion. And in TeSi Ayn Rand what we’re seeing is little traces of Ne Wandering Eyes, when the head ‘sorta’ starts going in the direction of the eyes but not really.

    Spoiler:

    ^ Se Eye-Head Parallel Motions… subordinate to J Face-Centric

    ^ Ne Wandering Eyes …subordinate to J Face-Centric

    The key you wanna look for here is how the torso/body doesn’t budge in either case. The “spine” of a J-lead is not moved by the eye-direction, so the rigid posture remains there. The difference between J-lead and P-lead isn’t just about eyes-vs-head but is about the relationship between eyes-head-body.

    In the case of Ni/Se, you need to rely on the torso and body to distinguish Eye-Centricity or not, because the parallel motion makes it hard to see the relationship between eyes and head (i.e. which is leading which?)

    In the case of Ne/Si, you can look at the torso and body to tell, but you can also look at how “much” the eyes do or don’t pull the head with them. For example, with Ayn Rand the Wandering Eyes is very minimal, with the head turning towards the eyes just a centimeter or so. In an Ne-lead, we see a far stronger magnetic attraction of the head towards where the eyes wander.

    ~

    I might make another set of graphics (involving the blue/red dots and circles like those above ^) that captures the differences between Ne vs Se in relation to J vs P lead. But I hope this helps clarify a bit?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Auburn.
    sekundaer
    Participant
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l-l-
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    @auburn – yes, that clarifies very much!
    At least it makes very much sense, and  now I  will reexamine a lot of videos to see if  I can put it into practice.
    Thanks!

    Connie
    Participant
    • Type: SiTe
    • Development: l-ll
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    I love the new instructive videos and get the eye/face centric on the videos but not in real life.  I am trying to watch people in real time and wonder is vultology best done by watching a video of the subject?

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    I’m glad it helped!

    Also for those who may have missed the little easteregg…

    The Toggle-Guides (hereafter “Tutorials”) button now also turns on a section with the tutorial videos as quick shortcuts at the bottom like so:

    Also, yes I definitely do better typing with a video, personally. Ironically it is harder to type people in person (in real-time) because we can’t go over / look over their signals as meticulously. And because we often need to participate in the conversation itself, which splits our attention in two. It’s not impossible to do but counter-intuitively harder.

    Best to record them on your phone. I find that a well positioned phone cam can record inconspicuously

    Spoiler:

    This is totally obvious, but u get the idea…

    Connie
    Participant
    • Type: SiTe
    • Development: l-ll
    • F Attitude: Unseelie

    Will that make me a spy😉?

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    I prefer “investigative journalist”

    Spoiler:

    hey these look interesting

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