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Pi Worldview Function (Ren)

Home 2023 › Forums › Model 1 Discussions › Pi Worldview Function (Ren)

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  • #31017
    Ren
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Hi Auburn,

    Okay, so here is my commentary on the Pi: Worldview Function article, beginning from the premise that I am either NiFe II-- or FeNi II--. For other readers, the context of this ‘exercise’ is to provide qualitative insight into these profiles by drawing from my own experience and mapping the different parts of each article onto components of my own, personal, experience.

    I’ll start with the article on Pi. Hopefully I can do the article on Je next weekend. (PS. I am sharing it in this thread because I don't know where else to share it; feel free to move it to a different, possibly new, forum thread).

    Global Narratives

    The description of the Pi function as involved in the archiving of information streaming into the psyche is very relatable. The passive element is crucial here, as I would be more or less aware that this is going on, but incapable of turning the process into something active; I could not intervene to change certain parameters of the process. There is this constant archiving that’s taking place in a remote room, filling itself up with information and having enough autonomy to do the sorting by itself. It can actually be very stressful to try and intervene in the process, for example by trying to accelerate it, make it more detailed, or more focused on specific areas of interest. Better let it take care of itself, in a sense, because Pi actually finds everything interesting, and it is not really up to me to differ! Now I don’t know if this is indicative of Pi or specifically Ni; but the openness is really consubstantial to how Pi operates. As a historian I never had any interest in dates (could hardly remember any) or even time periods. I was always interested in process, movement, fluxes; how things evolve over the longue durée. Pi never manifests itself in me as a function of classification either, but rather as an amorphous amalgamation of content which, from time to time and often quite unexpectedly, produces flickers of hyper-synthetic insights. Quite often I get the sense that I arrived at the insights without having thought at all, which, interestingly, can even lead to a weird sense of impostor syndrome. It isn’t that I didn’t think, of course, but that I didn’t do so actively, preserving instead my resources for the excavation of the areas lighted by the flickers—when they do take place.

    Philosophy and Counsel

    I agree with the philosophical dimension of Pi, and experience it this way. The function is certainly very interested in “why” and “what” questions. Generally I relate to much of what is written in this section, perhaps with the exception of this sentence: “This eventually cascades into a surety of perspective and an ability to give counsel that others come to view as stable.” I have a feeling that this is more an Si thing than an Ni thing. Because of the formlessness of the Ni archiving process, and the erratic and never entirely predictable nature of the flickers of light, I never get to attain a complete surety of perspective; the only thing I feel fairly sure about, perspective-wise, is that everything’s in flux, fundamentally process rather than essence. But precisely because of this focus on flux, it is difficult (and feels artificial) to isolate a singular perspective as the sure one, because then the perspective feels essentialised, not fluid. So although I could, almost without effort, deploy my worldview to anyone in detail and in a manner that flows, and again seemingly without having to truly, actively think, I would find it strange to claim that “this is the truth”. I would see it as one of many possible perspectives on the truth, in keeping with process/perspectivism à la Nietzsche.

    Steadiness and Temperance

    I do experience Pi as a grounding function, the caveat being that the ground is in flux, lol. Again I suspect this is more an Ni thing than an Si thing. There is definitely a conservative element to my cognitive makeup which translates in my worldview: it seeks change but not too quickly. It will sometimes fantasise about revolutionary change but never truly implement it. One thing which may be of interest for CT is what I would describe as a peculiar phenomenon of deferral: Pi (as far as my experience is concerned) is capable of envisaging large-scale change and phasing it over a long period, so that taken as a whole, the change is never felt to be too brutal. There is a certain elasticity to this process and it manifests in time: I can sometimes predict that a certain change will take place, say, in a year or so, and it will exactly happen that way—not before, not after. It’s really quite strange. It’s like Pi is confident that it will get there, but it needs time, to allow the unfolding to take place in its own organic naturalness, always steady, neither a trickle nor a torrent.

    Probabilities and Predictions

    I relate to pretty much the entirety of this section. “Pi is an informant that brings a report to the chief's desk, but as a reactive function it will not make the call to take any action by itself.” So accurate, lol. I find it very hard to be in the present moment, because the past always seems to be blending into the future rather than pointing to discrete categories. My psyche stands at the confluence, which is itself always in motion. Heraclitus said: “No man steps into the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and it’s not the same man.” That kind of sums it up. As a result, the predictive tendencies of Pi, as far as I experience them, are not really something it does for fun, or even something it’s necessarily gifted at. It just does it because it’s part of its nature to do it, to envision the world as an enormous unfolding map going in both temporal directions. What others will interpret as a liking for prediction, I will just see as the way I relate to reality, as the way that is most natural for me to describe reality. Since the core substance of perception is a flux, it inevitably “spills over” into the future when that perception is described. I would agree, however, that the Pi lead won’t feel comfortable describing his perceptions openly until he feels confident that his background archiving process has solidified into a comprehensible, holistic foundation. Until that happens, he will just continue collecting information, without being in a hurry, keeping his psyche open to the flux of the world, attentive to signs of the next flicker.

    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Juan E. Sandoval.
    #31027
    Juan E. Sandoval
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    This was wonderful to read, thank you. It's also given me more of an understanding of Ni's mode of thought. I see echoes in what you said to what MsQuanta (suspected to be NiTe) said in this post:

    I'm always trying to put things into a context by relating concepts, and this process is not proactively done as it is with Ne. It's like inside my head there's a vortex of consciousness. But it's like Cosmic background radiation. There's so much information that it's very hard to funnel it down. Just last night, I was attempting to explain Ni to a friend, and while typing the answer it just vomited out of me. I did not start writing with the expectation to compare my brain to a washing machine, but I knew I had been thinking about what Ni was for quite a few days and wasnt able to express it. I think an apt comparison for that would be the washing machine while in progress. There's a lot of swirling concepts, but they're being processed, and it's very hard to grasp at anything during that phase. I am not fully aware of the processing. All that time my more conscious self will just try to speculate and tinker, and that is moderately useful. After that processing has happened, I need to put my consciousness into that more settled, static vortex and look for the concept which is mostly effortless.

    You both describe this difficulty in disrupting the process, the dire need to wait for it to finish, and how it is very outside of your control, and very fluid. It reminds me of involuntary reactions like sneezing, where you feel a sneeze coming and you can't not sneeze, but sometimes it might also take a whole arduous 10 seconds to finally come out.

    What's curious to me is that some Si-leads in our community, like @hrafn and @lapislazuli have described similar inertial background processing. So this means I may need to adjust the Pi profile somewhat, to be less 'deliberate' (J) in its archival processing, and more fluid/synthetic in it.

    I've resisted adding too much of that language to the Pi profile, because of how it complicates the typing process, but perhaps I over-corrected. There is something very nuanced about Pi and Ni, which needs to be differentiated from the general nature of the unconscious, as may exist in everyone. One of the things I found somewhat problematic about Jung's descriptions of Ni is his connection of it with unconscious imagery. However, perhaps the problem is not that this is incorrect to say so, but that it makes descriptions challenging to get right, because the experience of insights rising spontaneously out of an unknown place - is one that every human will have.

    Indeed, every thought rises spontaneously from our minds. I've gotten to know many an FiNe, mistyped as INFJ, who's related to descriptions of Ni found in other literature, precisely because they too experience themselves as unaware of where their insights arise, and feeling a background process which suddenly provides for them some thoughts. But in truth, it is generally harder for any person to specify the origins of their thoughts, and we all have an unconscious soup of simmering associations within us, out from which congeal ideas and sentences. Our ego-consciousness is the 1% that is aware of its own thoughts, and the 99% is the bottom of the iceberg. How then are we to distinguish the normal activity of the unconscious in all people, from the activity of Ni? How do we sidestep the Barnum effect?

    From a typing perspective, I've found that it's the Pi-specific elements that make the difference. While a description like the one to follow is relatable to just about everyone..

    • Knowing things while lacking explanation
    • Having Hunches & Premonitions
    • Having a "sixth sense"
    • Being in touch with the unconscious
    • Relying on impressions
    • Being perceptive of what lies behind the immediate

    ..only those who are also strongly Pi will resonate with the contents of the above linked profile. It's perhaps because of this that I've also downplayed the element of unconsciousness in my descriptions of Pi and Ni. However, given what I'm getting as feedback from Pi-lead or Pi-heavy members, it's clear that I need to work on recovering some of this more synthetic processing style of Pi, so thank you again for your feedback Ren!

     

    #31032
    Ren
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I've resisted adding too much of that language to the Pi profile, because of how it complicates the typing process, but perhaps I over-corrected. There is something very nuanced about Pi and Ni, which needs to be differentiated from the general nature of the unconscious, as may exist in everyone. One of the things I found somewhat problematic about Jung's descriptions of Ni is his connection of it with unconscious imagery. However, perhaps the problem is not that this is incorrect to say so, but that it makes descriptions challenging to get right, because the experience of insights rising spontaneously out of an unknown place - is one that every human will have.

     

    For convenience's sake, let's call insight the kind of spontaneous flash everyone can have. I think Ni flashes are a special case of insight. The best conceptualisation of it, to my knowledge, is in the work of Martin Heidegger, where he defined truth as the phenomenon of unconcealment. (I think Heidegger was basically, and inadvertently, describing his own cognitive process.) Unconcealment is not exactly an experience of insight bursting forth from of an unknown place. What is felt is that something which was already there is 'unconcealed', lit, moved from a tangled forest of the psyche to a clearing. This is not the kind of phenomenon for which the phrase 'lightning bolt' is adequate. The Ni lead immediately has the awareness that the content of the insight had been with them for a long time in gestation, only concealed, hazy. I discuss the experiential phenomenon of haziness in my book, by the way.

    One consequence is that the insight that's reached is immediately familiar. What cannot be explained is how the Ni lead arrived at it deductively, because in a genuine sense, they did not. But once the truth has been unconcealed, they can certainly provide a map of the psychical territory where the truth has arisen, and this is how they make sense of it; this is their explanation. Instead of being able to say: "I arrived at x by deducing it from y and z", they say: "x belongs here on the map". It's a phenomenon of ostensive explanation, explanation by showing rather than demonstrating. There is something very visual involved. Ludwig Wittgensein puts it wonderfully in the Tractatus when he says: "Truth is a form of beauty." Elsewhere he also says: "Truth can only be spoken by someone who is already at home in it." You can clearly see that here the flash of insight is not described as something utterly unfamiliar, nor even really new. It is rather experienced as something aesthetic, an experience of unconcealment of what was always there, which is an experience of beauty.

    If Ni is taken to be a kind of ever-growing map of the world, flashes of insight are sudden unconcealments of certain regions of the map hitherto darkened. To some extent the Ni lead could tell where the regions were located; but he could not access them in any level of detail. The Ni insight brings him from haziness to clarity, or from indeterminacy to determinateness. And I would claim that the vast majority of Ni insights are unconcealments of this kind; that the way the Ni lead gets closer to truth, develops his knowledge, reasons his way through arguments, etc., is mostly through series of such unconcealments. He is rarely awestruck by flashes, because to him unconcealment is a deeply familiar, everyday phenomenon of consciousness (for all its unpredictability, it will regularly take place). He would be far more awestruck if he suddenly stopped experiencing unconcealment. There is, if you will, a certain everyday-ness to the experience, however strange this may sound.

    Perhaps you will say once again that everyone will relate to the above, but at least I've attempted to specify the Ni insight further, lol.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Ren.
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    #31038
    Juan E. Sandoval
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Yes, precisely!

    I've made a post before aiming to explain the difference between CT's FiNe's who think they're MBTI INFJ, and actual CT NiFe's, and there is this section which describes this phenomenon, though in less detail:

    Aha Moments: The second third of the confusion comes from the way Ni is described; namely as a function of inner intuitions, hunches, and insights that germinate from within first and congeal suddenly into revelations. This is simply not the case for Ni and is not how it operates in reality. What we've seen instead is that Ni (proper) doesn't have epiphanies or "aha moments" and that is more of an Ne quality; these sudden bursts of synthesis.
    This is why one of Ni's signals is "unimpressed" eyes. Ni doesn't experience surprise or "oh wow!" moments because the things Ni knows come from the unconscious and passive accumulation of data-points throughout decades of life-- all of which mesh into a tapestry that gives them archival knowledge which they access whenever something simply needs to be looked up. Hence, for Ni the sensation of intuition is more like "of course" or "obviously" than it is surprise. And this is why Ni is fatalistic when at its extreme, because of its voluminous archive.

    It's nice to see how often we seem to converge from different places.

    Perhaps you will say once again that everyone will relate to the above, but at least I've attempted to specify the Ni insight further, lol.

    No, I think you did hone in on something specific there, and although I've written a little about this tendency, your writeup is much more in-depth, so I'm glad you shared. And yes, I've read about the Haziness problem in your book 🙂 I'm about halfway done with it now. I'm quite eager to share my full thoughts on it soon.

    #31052
    Rams
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: l-l-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Hi all,

    Though not Pi lead, I am Pi integrated per my initial typing and hope to add another layer (or at the least another branch) of perspective on to this discussion.  Caveat Emptor:  As a Ji lead I will, no doubt, be seeding much of this with that sort of perspective.

    I wanted to address Ren's use of the word "flux" as I believe this an excellent way to call attention to the state of motion that I would associate with Ni.  The "file system" itself is not stable and subject to continous change in a way I would say is clearly associative, but not in the manner that I would mark as purposeful, but also disntinctively *continous*.  In other words there is not a moment where in I am not passively taking in information and effectively allowing it to *align itself*.  However, what I understand to be happening is that the associations and alignments to be taking place on a meta-level.  I.e. the similarity of context in which Pi develops it's sense of localization is contingent on the movement itself and not the object reference.

    To use as an example, when examining Yin-Yang theory it's common to use a static picture of two interlocking black and white teardrops with the opposing shades color inside the center of each tear drop.  However this is an extremely static description and is, for all intents and purposed, actually irrelavant to Yin-Yang theory.  The diagram is actually in motion with each infintesmal radial degree representing an energetic exchange between forces that are both diametrically opposed and yet also interdependent on the existence of the other half (and indeed, existing simultanously).  What I understand Ni to be doing is to be cataloging these *types* of interchanges and not the specific points on the diagram itself.  Dissecting the diagram into quadrants allows the map to be *understood* easier, but is merely there for a point of reference.  The meat of information is in the motion itself.

    Since the motion inside of this movement is what is actually being observed, types of motion carry a sort of imprint that can be superimosed on any set of objects in time to understand which of the many types of motion are actually at play in any specific circumstance.  All knowledge perceived allows a wider berth of objects under the effect of motion until the point at which a certain predictability arises in which things seem to be playing out cyclicly (as per the example above).  While nothing will ever play out exactly the same, Ni as a function seems to understand this as well and will account for random variables by a certain level of "it's possible, it depends".  Because of this, it seems as if Ni is always sure of it's understanding and always not sure simultaneously, as there is a personal knowing that not all variables may be known at the time.

    This is more of an aside, but since the type of motion seems to be what is most relevant to Ni and not the specifics themselves, it allows a person with this perspective to make certain "acausal" leaps. This has been mention in CT's Ni descriptions before, I believe.   I've been guilty of this in the past myself, where in I will associate unrelated things  with certain outcomes within a situation based on my  familiarity with the subject matter.  The more familiar I am with a situation's motion patterns, the more likely I am to take completely unrelated phenomena as related motion to the context/outcome of a certain situation.  The odd thing about this is that it has a fairly high accuracy, but these sorts of things only occur to me in the most familiar of circumstances.  The results of this range from novel insight to full out paranoia.

    Additionally, certain aspects of symbolism seem to resonate with this, as symbols in and of themselves can contain a very dense amount of information.  Granted, I feel like this could extend to both Pi in general, but Pi I believe to have a special ability to catalog these things in a manner in which they are relavent to humans over time.  That sort of mental space picks  up that resonance and translates it particularly well and serves as "landmarks" for the map and compass in general.

    In regards to the "insight" of Ni, I completly agree that the uncovering of these insights are not "aha" moments, though I'm sure we all have those types of moments. I wouldn't even call the revealing of these insights to be part of the continous nature of the Pi experience as Pi just seems to be a continous rummaging through a vortex.  I actually associate those "woah" moments to be both perception functions to be working together, with Se providing an intense impetus to the mental objects being observed where the insight gleaned is boosted in fidelity.  That is pure conjecture, by the way, as I'm sure this could be reliant on any number of completly non "cogfx" aspects of being a human.

    I think the thing I am amazed at most though, especially as a Ji lead, is how many Pi leads are redicously well read. Yoda and Ren are continously referencing things often.  I've seen Lapis do this also occasionaly. It really amazes me the depth of information that Pi leads are capable of storing as most of the information I process in the background seems to get immediately dissected and "Ji'd" as it where.  Information is extracted and not stored with nearly that level of care. There is a purity to the information stored by Pi leads that, even with Ni, they are capable summoning at a moments notice.

     

     

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