One of my favorite things about this site was the mythology linked to the functions. Personally, the Se mythology was easier to see in myself than the actual description, but that aside - I was drawn to the mythology before I even knew my type. It touched on trends that were visibly apparent to me. I could see these currents running underneath people, regardless whether or not they 'related' or 'identified' with their type's energy egoically.
The one I struggle with the most is the "Ti void." I married a Ti lead, have been close to other Ti leads - and this 'emptiness' is not a defining factor for them. It seems prevalent among Alphas, but the visceral Se of Beta seems to be give Beta Ti leads more personal 'presence.'
Perhaps some Betas relate to the void, perhaps some Deltas and Gammas too. But for something like this to be archetypal and defining, it has to capture the essence of Ti leads ubiquitously, whether they realize it or not. When I got to discord, I found out that many Beta Ti's agreed with my observations and had already objected to the Ti 'void myth.'
I would like to discuss this here. In what ways is Ti 'void' accurate, and in what ways is it off? What is the Ti 'myth' really about?
I believe that, in part, this has to do with the sense of self in relation to the word: embodied or not. Sensor or Intuitor, ST or NT. I am aware of Ni-Te individuals who relate more to the Void Aspect than I do. After all, ST generates a grounding in physical/material reality that NT does not.
Personally, I am more conscious of my need to reach for Perfection (Heaven) and my personal failings to attain it (Fall from Heaven). A Light oriented perspective, if you will, instead of the Void perspective.
The Light and the Void are Aspects of reality that pertain to the same dimension of it: they are opposite sides of the same coin.
I used to wonder why I would not be Fi instead, but I mistook the Life Aspect of Fi for the Light Aspect that I am attuned to. Light, I have learned, is not what creates Life. Rather, it takes both Light and Void to make this happen. As such Life is neither opposed nor allied with Light or Void; instead it is an Aspect that relates to reality on a different level altogether. As an aside, the opposite (same coin) of Life is Death.
Connecting these to CFT, I would loosely equate the Ti-Fe with the dimension of Light <> Void.
Similarly, I loosely equate Fi-Te with the dimension of Life <> Death.
For these, the mixture with Sensing and Intuition creates a dynamic that I haven't found to be completely predictable... as of yet. Although, I think I can safely say that Sensing offers a fullness to one's experiences of the self that Intuition does not. ('Fullness' as it pertains to Light and Life, as opposed to the 'Empty' aspects of Void and Death... though Ne-Fi confuses me greatly, as they seem to incorporate both Life and Death, which in turn creates a kaleidoscope of colors, neither alive nor dead. Such is the nature of Ne to my innocent eyes...)
I agree, Ivory.
@Thanatesque - who is NiTe - and also Trent Reznor - have some 'non-human' stuff going on. It's not the same as the Alpha NT void, but there's this dive into the gutteral and ugly, "humanlessness," stripped of emotion or 'ego,' and dive into what we're made of on the level of skin, organs and bones; an aesthetic depiction of a view on reality that is unobstructed by fear and pleasure. Both of them dive into the macabre aesthetic with ease.
With the use of visceral 'Se,' Reznor is expressing that the humanity is stripped from the animal; we are torn down to base instinct. I write about this concept, but I don't identify with monkey genitals, bare guts and bugs. 🙂
In my opinion, Thanatesque captures the beauty in this more elegantly, at least in her collages. The disembodiedness of 5, the ephemerality of 9 (she's 5 with 9 fix).
Some of them go deep down into 'death' and 'ego death', like this:
I wonder if the lack of "NT blocking" in Beta & Delta makes this 'NT' humanlessness less likely.
@spirit-of-the-gael - another NiTe - also depicts a certain formlessness in her collages. I remember her forum quote when we met, was something along the lines of 'just watching people run around frantically doing nothing.' Her collages show a 9ish 'hollowness' in the sense of 'losing oneself' or fading away.
@spirit_of_the_gael is a 9 core with 5 fix, and her collages start out with more body rather than head energy, but still capture this 9-5 or 5-9 "emptiness" or "hollowness" which also seems common among NT's. Sometimes it's about a spare use of space, and in her case as a Social dominant; 'loneliness.'
I see a similar aesthetic in @Alerith 's collages, too. I'm assuming Alerith is some 5-9 or 9-5 combo, but correct me if I'm wrong. These are hers:
Following with @Ivory 's ideas above - perhaps Trent Reznor, @Thanatesque and @spirit_of_the_gael - NiTe's - are touching more on life vs. death, whereas @Alerith - who is TiNe - is touching more on 'void.' What do you guys think? How would you interpret the difference?
I sense that there maybe something to the hollow, ego death, and alerith's first batch of images. In my experience void is like a core force of empowerment. At I don't truly need logic or reasoning. Once I have found myself to be at a point of completely bais-free at the core I can have a kind of faith. Example: I know I would rather die than be enslave in anyway shape or form; therefore, no matter where I end up dead or alive it will be at a place of greater truth.
Start at 0:52 focusing on the leveling each other up stage of the fight.
I can personally see something like the void myth present in my own life. There was period a few years ago when I pretty much deconstructed everything I believed and even now I have can't really form actual beliefs about anything. At one point, I even came to the conclusion that I knew nothing; until I realized that that was essentially saying that I knew that I knew nothing and was thus an oxymoronic statement. The only time I'm not questioning myself is when I'm not saying or thinking anything and that's where I see the non-assertion piece come in. The part about ignorance being the true condition of being connects with my thoughts about the unprovable nature of knowledge.
@SupahProtist If I had to guess I'd say you possess an SeTi brain with a Ti mind as an Explorer of Ti Realm. I'd possess much the same as you, only with responsibilities over the Ni realm.
It is interesting as someone who so has so much in common with your typology I have not yet felt the need to deconstruct all my believes. Rather more of the opposite is true which seems like fitting my believes into everyone else's; much akin to a never ending puzzle.
Breaking it Down:
I do kind of breakdown concepts that separate my believes from the masses. Crapping Example 1: I'm I dumb... well what is dumb as well as smart. Can you make them measurable? What if instead of appearing to be smart you manifested results that where clever, original, elaborate, enlightening, and effective relative to that of the accusers results? As long as one can keep that up such titles hold no weight. Crappy Example 2: I have aspirations that are not in harmony with everyone else's around me, yet I have to be careful not fall into trap of believing everyone else is wrong. Doing so aggressively has attracted aggressive evidence of others proving that I was farther form the truth than they.
Supah, how close is this to your thoughts?
So far I believe there are undesired consequences to asserting any intention toward anything that can be used against the asserter OR cause the asserter pain if token away.
PS: So far I have been working on the following: Not worrying about being certain about everything and only working off what you are certain about. It seem like common to me at first, yet I had it backward. Do you think this help you in some way or maybe not?
Breaking it down: I think a main difference here is that I don’t necessarily believe that the collective’s beliefs hold any water. However, I’m not sure that any of my beliefs hold water either. The deconstruction I reffered to is closer to a destruction of all of my beliefs that can’t be proven, which is all of them. I’m even now trying to remember exactly when I entered this deconsructive mode, but I’m uncertain about when it actually began. What happens is I’ll think “How do you know X?” and won’t be able to answer the question. This may potentially stem from not wanting to believe or know or feeling that I shouldn’t believe or know anything. I have yet to understand the reason behind feeling I shouldn’t believe or know anything though.
Non-assertion: My negative attitude towards assertion seems to cover all types of assertion, not just intents. I’m not sure if I have any beliefs on the subject, but I can observe that I enter periods where any assertion I make of any kind is viewed as unverifiable and thus rejected.
PS: This would be my strategy if I had anything I was certain about and if I thought certainty was an acceptable stance on anything.
Thanks for bringing that up Animal.
Personally I do not relate to the Myth of the Void.
When I initially read the Ti article, I just thought that I did not understand what the Void is, or maybe I am not conscious of experiencing it?
I am getting more into the Enneagrams, and I found this blog post: http://enneagramphilosophy.tumblr.com/post/162016024277/withdrawn-types-and-the-void
It explains that the withdrawn types 4, 5 and 9 connect most with the Void.
I identify as type 1.
@animal - Sorry it's taken me a while to respond here.. had a health crisis and other irl things to address lately :/ The good news is I've had more time to simmer on this topic, and have some thoughts to share!
I’m assuming Alerith is some 5-9 or 9-5 combo, but correct me if I’m wrong.
I've tested out as 549 and 541, but more recently as 593. I think life finally tempered me to the point where I lost my 4ish idealism 😛 You're right on the nose with 5 and 9 for me tho, I've seen a lot of both those patterns in myself.
Following with @ivory ‘s ideas above – perhaps Trent Reznor, @thanatesque and @spirit_of_the_gael – NiTe’s – are touching more on life vs. death, whereas @alerith – who is TiNe – is touching more on ‘void.’ What do you guys think? How would you interpret the difference?
It's so interesting you mention Trent Reznor! He was a mad crush of mine back in my late teens 😀 <3
The way Te/Fi tends to reveal the 'dark' truths of our humanity which are often rejected in the name of social norms and 'decency' has always been so attractive to me. It seems like the difference between this kind of expression and my expression as a TiNe mainly stems from the compass functions - being that the compass (Ji) is what 'points us to the truth'. To Ti, the fundamental truth is that of negation, especially negation of that which is *felt* as meaningful in the human experience. There is an intrinsic dissociation from the emotional register with Ti, which leads to a sort of disembodiment, an 'outsider perspective'. I've thought lately that the ideation of the void and experience of it is really an experience of this dissociation, and of an acknowledgement of the lack of that which is humanly relevant in the reality outside of our perception. Contrary to Ti, Fi's fundamental truth is the reality of the human experience in all of its raw nuance. And I think you're right, Life vs Death is the locus at the core of the ethical question, and I believe the deepest driving factor which generates emotional response. What I see in manifestations like Reznor's music video and thanatesque and spirit_of_the_gael's collages are direct expressions of Fi's inevitable dilemmas as an ethical function. It's more about the tragedy of being, the paradox of life and suffering, of loss, and perhaps especially the truth of amorality/human nature beyond the social expectations than it is about nonexistence and void. There is an acknowledgement of death and decay, but not necessarily *void*. My collages seem abiotic compared to these other works, which is exactly the difference I'd expect between Ti and Fi.
On top of the inverse effect of the different compass functions, I do see the signature of the differences between Se/Ni and Ne/Si as well. The NiTe artworks seem very physical, visceral. There is emphasis given to the experience of the body, be it pain, movement or strong emotion. There is something literal and direct about the imagery, even in the more abstract symbols spirit_of_the_gael uses. Contrast this to my collages in which bodies are used like a metaphor, they are kind of static characters instead of representations of the literal or emotional human experience, and emphasis is given to an overall impression of *essence* rather than a pointed symbolic meaning.
This is a bit of a tangent from the original question, but a thought occurred to me while contemplating this thread. I think Ti and Ni can both manifest a profound state of peace, 'Zen' you could call it, but in different ways and coming from different places. This may well relate to the work of Dario Nardi on mapping the neurology of the functions. He found that Ni-leads manifest a synchronized brain state associated with being alert and calm or performing an activity of creative expertise. What's especially interesting is that this pattern also shows up when the Ni user is tackling an unfamiliar problem or envisioning the future. This seems to suggest to me that Ni, as an intuitive function, centers in a sense of holistic association, where all factors/elements are 'known' and comprehended relative to each other. I imagine the psychological experience would be one of being at the center of the causality and flow of things, therefore able to predict what will happen next. This would indeed result in a sense of competence and security.
Now with Ti, the primary neurological pattern is a circuit in the frontal and prefrontal cortex associated with linear solution derivation, categorization and factual recall. It is my thought that a sense of security is manifest with Ti when it seems that the world has been conceptualized into a categorical set/system/framework. Because of the taxonomic nature of this conceptualization, the Ti user would have the experience of being outside of the system - since their world is a sort of model built of definitions. This is the sense of security, looking from the outside-in and being dissociated from the causality and flow of things, therefore not subject to it.
So basically Ni gains a sense of control and security, thus peace, from looking out at the world from the center, while Ti gains that sense of competence from looking in at the world from the outside.
I dunno if any of that makes sense? 😮
Anyway, this post has gone on! To answer, briefly, the question from your OP, I do relate to the myth of the void. As mentioned though, I've come to be conscious of the fact lately that it's not literally 'void' that I'm drawn to, but reality beyond subjective experience. I think Ti wants to get as close to an objective concept of reality as possible, and I've sensed the factual, concrete existence of the world as a stillness/emptiness. But in truth this stillness isn't so much literal as it is a sense of a lack of emotional/psychological projection into the environment. At least that's how I've come to see it thus far..
Hello ! 🙂
@alerith, this post clarifies some issues for me, because recently I asked some Fi users if they thought the Ti void was the same as our Fi - inner essence. I think one of them agreed that this might be the case and I honestly believed it must be so, since everyone should be able to reach their essence/the truth in a way or another.
But now you put it in a different way and I am not sure if I was right or if the void is something unreachable/incomprehensible to me.
Usually I can't see reality beyond subjective experience, I don't look at it from that angle. The most relevant thing is my subjective perception of reality; reality itself seems to exist only to call forth feelings and insights, like an art work. And I believe this sounds self centered...and it IS. 🙂
But I see it like this - what is more important - what is really there or what I, a human being, perceive to be there and feel about it? And for me, it's the latter ! I am not even sure there is something objective there to start with, I could easily believe it's all Maya, illusion.
And now to get to the part about the void. What I noticed is I can meditate and see my mind as a quiet observer and the thoughts floating through it or...above it, like birds flying above a clear lake. I read this in a book, and when I tried it myself, I realized it was true. I could see it.
And I believe my inner essence is the pure water, not the birds. Because the birds will always be different, so it would be absurd to identify with them.
But is this pure water and the silent observer the same with the Void?? Cause I thought this is the case but now, reading your post, I feel I am missing something. My void is still mine. Still a subjective experience... of being a pure lake in which everything reflects. :)) I perceive it as pure and potentially free of attachments, but not as beyond subjective experience, since seeing the thoughts come and go (reflecting the birds as they fly above the water) is still a subjective experience, I am the one who has it ! (even though I am sure everyone has this same mirror in their mind, this mirror is consciousness itself, I think)
I hope this makes sense, cause it is hard to express. From one point of view, it seems like we might be talking about the same thing but from another, it seems like we are talking about different things. I don't feel I am looking at reality from the outside, I feel like I am reflecting...what can be perceived (cause I can't know if it is real) in a mirror that is my inner essence. But... it still is what I perceive, I am still in the center and the world is above me and the reflections of the world are inside, the difference from general day to day life is that in this case I let them move freely without trying to catch them and possess them...but still, still, this is about the mirror and not about the world. 🙂
Maybe this is actually an Ni thing? Or Fi & Ni? I'm curious what you think and I believe it would be wonderful to really discern Ti void from Fi inner essence, because there seems to be some overlapping between them or it's more like 2 dwarfs who dig one from a side of a mountain and one from the other side but if they dig in the exact opposite directions, they could meet somewhere on their way. But coming from totally different points. 🙂
But is this pure water and the silent observer the same with the Void?? Cause I thought this is the case but now, reading your post, I feel I am missing something. My void is still mine. Still a subjective experience… of being a pure lake in which everything reflects. :)) I perceive it as pure and potentially free of attachments, but not as beyond subjective experience, since seeing the thoughts come and go (reflecting the birds as they fly above the water) is still a subjective experience, I am the one who has it ! (even though I am sure everyone has this same mirror in their mind, this mirror is consciousness itself, I think)
I like your use of the water metaphor. I used the same metaphor for Fi in the Attunement & Purification section. What you describe sounds to me like:
"The Fi user will be a rationally motivated individual but one who does not eliminate the information of their body or emotional register, but instead uses it as a compass to discover what is simultaneously the reality of existence and the truthful way of “being” in that existence. Approaching this nexus means eliminating any incongruencies that might muddle the path to that purity and knowledge."
"The principle motif for Fi becomes “attunement.” It becomes the aim of the Fi user to be a calibrated tuning fork, capable of giving the right tune no matter what the situation may be. Over time the Fi user becomes keenly aware of the dynamics of the heart and tries to pierce through into a transcendent actuality not muddled by personal feelings and hang-ups. "
One thing that I think needs further emphasis is that Fi does strive to be un-muddled and unbiased, in the sense of not being unfairly self-interested, but it's not unbiased in the sense of removing the subjective factor. I might differentiate it as:
Fi: Clarity through proper reflection, "objectivity" by using oneself as a properly calibrated instrument, that can read the situation fairly, while still using oneself as the antenna.
Ti: Clarity through dissociation, "objectivity" by removing oneself from the situation, and viewing all things as an outside observer.
@devon This also reminds me of your Fi-lead friend, and how she tries to reflect back the truth of people, by being an antenna that can faithfully represent their essence in artwork. Fi seeks 'truth' of a universal sort, but from the inside-out. So it's not really a dissociated void, as much as it is... a clear lake surface, precisely as you mentioned. But the lake (Fi) is still there, reflecting the night sky and constellations.. while never actually going away into it (Ti).
Now, it could be argued that Ti never actually succeeds in being removed from the situation. So it can seem a little presumptuous to other types, when Ti talks about being "beyond subjective experience." To be fair, I don't think Ti actually ever leaves the bias, but the internal experience is often as such. There's an internal dissociation from the ethical function, so that when Ti performs its processing loop, the ethical functionality is outsourced to its polarity and it has to access it (Fe) from a roundabout channel. And although Ti+Fe working in unison can produce similar effects, the two considerations are merged in Fi.
In the end, an Fi user can be clearer about truth than a Ti user, if their attunement is more faithful to reality, while a Ti user may miscalculate reality by being so removed that their view becomes myopic and ignorant to their unconscious bias, existing in their dissociated polarity (Fe). So no type or function has a monopoly on "truth" and the description of Ti's metabolism is certainly not meant to be a free-pass to it.
The void myth is a very interesting topic to me. I have a very convoluted relationship toward it--one that I’m still not sure I completely understand. As much as I can tell, I actually experience void as something outside of myself that I become aware of when I feel it’s threatening me or encroaching on me.
I don’t actually have the experience of feeling disconnected from my own life, but I do relate to the void myth in the sense that my mind tends to generate void-like thought patterns. This creates a clash between what I know from experience & what I think from conceptualization.
Here’s an example of these kind of thoughts....
The last seven or eight years I’ve been preoccupied on & off by a vision of the future that goes something like --A century or two from now, what we humans have destroyed ourselves & the rich tapestry of life in which we live? What if Earth is reduced to a barren scrubland, and all our water slowly evaporates into outer space? Given this outcome, would anything worthwhile have come out of our existence or would Earthly life simply have faded away into a vast, uninterested Universe?
…A slightly different variation: –What if humanity dies off en masse and the only humans who survive are all billionaires and sociopaths? Will they learn any moral or evolutionary lessons from the massive trauma the rest of their species has just suffered? Or will they simply carry forward their disconnected self-righteousness and continue along their same life-denying path?
While it’s easy to get drawn into these thought-paths, my mind does not experience them in a neutral or uninhibited way. Rather, I find myself reacting with dread & nonacceptance—reflexively searching for reasons to counter such conceptualizations. While i can worry endlessly about such nihilistic beliefs, I can never actually accept them because they tend to cast a gloomy pall over how I experience & act in world. Even my Ti doesn't actually have compelling reasons to internalize such perspectives—e.g. If life is ultimately doomed/meaningless, and my viewpoints emerge from my experience in life, then it’s ultimately every bit as futile for me to recognize the truth of life’s meaninglessness as it is for me to be happily oblivious to it.
So I think my relationship toward the void goes something like this: in order to flow well in life, I need to have a set of beliefs that aligns with—or at least doesn’t undermine—my internal sensibility that my actions in life are worthwhile. I can’t truly suppress my mind from coming up with nihilistic propositions, yet when it does, my reflexive inclination is to try to fend these off. These void-like ideas can have compelling rationale, but qualitatively they are somewhat thin & intellectual, not something I truly know in an internal or experiential way. Because of this, and because I don’t readily accept these ideas, I tend to experience them as being outside of myself. My propensity to become personally invested in dismissing such ideas increases this sense of juxtaposition.
I should say that as I’ve gotten older, I’ve become better at accepting and integrating these kind of ideas without either trying to suppress them or allowing them to overpower my worldview. For example, in the example I gave above about the destruction of Earth’s & humanity, I’ve learned to accept that the future is not yet real, and that there’s no way of knowing what it will ultimately bring. IT's certainly possible that the future will be a terrible one filled with authoritarians & billionaires who squeeze the life out our planet, but the best way of preventing that from happening is by trying to actually take actions toward a more hopeful outcome.
@Auburn - thank you ! I think I'm starting to understand the differences better.
I also realized that I was making some mistakes or hanging on older biases without realizing it. In my mind, feelings (and emotions) were connected to water. And after finding out about CT, I started to also see Fi as somehow being represented by water. And I knew very well that feelings are not Fi, but when thinking about this whole thing in images, I saw water and I thought about it in vague terms as both feelings (in the general sense of the word) AND Fi. And it puzzled me a bit how you should actually use a turbulent sea as a J function. :)) I read about it and I could say Fi was a compass function and doing this and that, but when imagining it, I basically saw water, that was already heavily connected to feelings and I had no idea what that had to do with discerning what is true from what is false. So, I dismissed this dilemma and kept thinking in theory 🙂 that Fi is used as a compass but in reality I did not have a clear image about how it worked as a compass.
And only now I realized - emotions are actually waves, movements in the water and feelings are maybe more like currents? And most of the times, waves bring all sorts of impurities up. So, the whole purification process should be striving to calm the lake surface, in order to make the water clearer, so it can better reflect the sky.
I think this is precisely the reason why I thought that there is a connection between Fi and death. Because making the lake surface still and pure implies stopping the waves, in order to let the water become clear again. You can't have stormy seas and clear water at the same time. But the waves look like the life of water. So, stopping them is an act of destruction. A necessary one though.
It's great I figured this out, because in spite of my fixation on Fi, I am not using this function as well as it could be used and I never thought of what could be improved but now I'm starting to have some clearer ideas about it. Though not completely clear yet... because obviously balance is also necessary, it would be a bit too much to filter all the water perfectly, take out everything else, kill the fish, take out all the mud and leave the lake perfectly pure. (now I'm seeing huge machines doing this in an Fi-Te horror scene :)) )
Sorry for this diversion that has nothing to do with Ti void, I just thought it was important and it came up in this context.
Oh, and about Ti and being beyond subjective experience...it just sounds different from how I usually operate, but closer to the ideal. It sounds like the right thing to do, that's why I started checking if I had this experience too or not. But now I think I must only focus more on purifying that water. :))