Socionics & Aušra Augustinavičiūtė

Home Page Forums Vultology & Learning Center Socionics & Aušra Augustinavičiūtė

  • Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @Echidna

    Yes that makes sense about Fi, and I knew something was off about ESI before I got there – being at your forum did help me to confirm that I wasn’t ESI, with very good reason.  But then, what about SEE?

    Socially, my friends called me “the sun” because I was the gravitational center of our activity.  I am not an overly social person, nor do I need to constantly hang out, but when I do have a group, I meet each person individually and the group kind of ‘forms’ around me, based on a few close friendships, the chemistry between everyone, and focus on a shared project or interest. For this reason I’ve been seen as having leadership qualities.  Also, regarding force, my aggression in pursuing anything I want, making an impact, getting to the front of the line, relentless pursuit of male prey, etc – is well known about me.  There has never been a problem with Se lead for me, except for the idea that they supposedly need a Ni lead to tell them where they will end up tomorrow and how to keep their eye on a long term goal.  Personally I don’t need this type of input from anyone; I do it myself. However, Ni leads help me keep things in perspective with the grand scheme of ‘everything.’ I make an impact now and they see it rippling in the cosmos. As we join forces, the impact becomes that of the group, rather than “just me,” but I am at the helm.

    I do relate to taking information in snapshots and being attentive to the reality around me, drawing conclusions based on real actions, real patterns, and real data that unfolds in real time. When I say data, I mean, about people moment to moment. I don’t trust statistics and anything distant that doesn’t line up with something I see and experience with my own eyes. I get in arguments with Alpha NT’s for this reason – because I will feel like they appreciated some distant words on a page about things they don’t know, and used that as an argument, which is meaningless – and they will feel like my data is too narrow, because ‘my reality’ does not constitute the whole world.  But I am astute at picking up real time trends as they unfold around me, which they are not, so they don’t understand where I’m coming from. That said, they often have a point, that I’m resisting information that might be helpful.

    As for Force, Impact – 100% me.  The problem I had with typing at Se lead at the time I joined WSS, is just that I have long term vision, and always did, even as a kid. I am not someone who plans out my next day on a schedule, per se (although I’ll do that if it makes sense), but I can keep my eye on a goal, go through the steps every day, practice the lesson, do the homework, and put in whatever it takes to achieve my vision. I have this song lyric:

    Tell me the odds
    I’ll beat them senseless
    Summon the Gods
    They’ll be defenseless

    This is how I managed to sing lead through my whisper – sheer force of will and determination. I knew just how much force to apply to my broken voice so that I wouldn’t destroy what was left of it and could get the most sound out of it that one possibly could. Others called it a miracle that I was able to sing with no tissue on my vocal cords, but I am a force of sheer persistence. If I want to do something, death will not stop me.   Another tag phrase on my website:

    “My powerful voice was reduced to a whisper, but I am still a vessel through which passion emerges.  Take my voice, my hair, my mobility, my memory… but if you want my fire, you will have to kill me.”

    These phrases and lyrics are not just words. They are a genuine summary of my attitude about life. When I was singing, people sometimes commented on the music, but most often they commented on my willpower. The feedback I get from my parents is that I was always relentless, no one could stop me from doing something I wanted to do. And that’s my personality. How I choose to direct it, happens to be in the arts.

    My parents also called me “little lawyer.” Gulenko talks about thinking styles, and how SEE can actually be verbal and good with sparring.  I don’t know how you incorporate Gulenko into your model, but this makes sense for me, regarding casual-determinist cognition:  “Use of it requires great intellectual stamina. Second, attributes of greater clarity and concentration are inherent to this style. The type most characterized by singular concentration is LSI. However, the irrational SEE argues quite soundly, deriving one consequence from another, implying focus on the chain of events. If even one link fails for any reason, then Determinists lose their sense of rationale and find it difficult to act because they see no reason to.”

    Will is obvious.  As for impact, flow, force: when I’m doing a task, I’m in it; I become it.  The moment is all that there is.  Music writes itself through me and when I’m on stage, I’m a vessel through which passion emerges. I am the music.  The same happens when any sports I might play, any walk I take, etc. With workout routines, music (which can be a complicated physical act at times), etc – I know how to hit with the right amount of impact and force; no more, no less.  Moment to moment I’m told I have a big presence.  Before I got sick, I was known for having an impactful stage presence.   And when it comes to aesthetic, although there is intrinsic symbolism in my aesthetic, I also see clothes or art is as a way to make an impact. Bold colors and striking statements announce who I am.  Much like tiger stripes.  This same idea applies when I’m playing sports, music, working out,  making love etc.  I dive right in and make an impact.  So I don’t see the problem with force.   And given that I relate to Fi but it’s not the most important thing to me, I could see a case that it’s my second function.

    After writing all of that, I decided right now to check your website, since I haven’t looked at it in years.  Basically, this is me, and it’s not some bloated opinion of my HA function – it’s how others describe me, how my parents would view me, a very realistic assessment:

    1. Force
    The SEE is most notable for their fiercely independent desire to do what they want when they want. Possessed with a strong, challenging and largely upbeat energy, they are usually the first to act impulsively on a situation according to their will, confronting their immediate reality to make it advantageous to them and those they care for. SEEs see success in being able to resist opposing forces and prevail on their own resourcefulness and determination, being their own boss and fighting off those who would command them. When placed in a social hierarchy, the only level satisfactory for the SEE is one where they answer to no one, resulting in them climbing straight for the top. In such activities, SEEs tend to show great gusto, as they love the vitality of pitting themselves against a hard problem and pushing through to the other side. For this reason, SEEs are regularly seen as gregarious go-getters, rising to the challenge and usually reaping the rewards. In the social sphere, SEEs tend to dominate with their ability to steer a conversation the way they want it to go. They tend to be quickly noticed in a room of people for this reason and people can find them captivating. Similarly, their natural social confidence is the source of much of their ambition, with SEEs conquering, not merely through force, but through the hearts and minds of those they have won over.

    I am definitely a leader, not a joiner.  Even online, I only join forums for a purpose, which is related to my own projects – and then I leave. I joined WSS for a short time, a few months – to get a few answers. Then left.  I joined CT, but left the discord and I only post here because I see a strong learning opportunity.  My main activity is on archetribe.com, my own site that I own and run with my husband.  He is a quieter personality and although it is ‘our’ project, and he is the intellectual grit behind it, I am the figurehead who brings people to it and makes it happen.  On facebook, our very tiny group made huge waves throughout other HUGE groups who are still talking about us months after it closed.  There is no question that I have a ‘top dog’ style personality, I am the “magnetic force” drawing people in, with my genius partner beside me upholding the integrity of the ideas, and my NiTe advisors & best friends who I would protect with my life — and we tend to have a “we’re the army conquering the world” vibe.  That’s our role in the enneagram/online community at large, conquering the bullshit that enneagram has become.  I always take challenges head on.  So, this description works for me.  The second paragraph about Fi is pretty true as well, except that I actually crave a ton of time alone and don’t tolerate being surrounded by people all the time, nor do I get lonely. I need time for me and my work. Socializing, for me, tends to be magnetizing people around a shared interest. For instance I would run the band and invite others to a show, or I’d film a music video and invite others to pose in the video. But I always made it fun and mutually beneficial, so they would have the joy of showing up and dancing, while I did all the busywork and organization by myself.  In the enneagram community for example, my friends are featured as the intelligent thinkers while my partner and I do the backwork to keep it going, but we also stand out as the figureheads and take the hits for everyone, as they come, not to mention, the glory often comes our way first, as a consequence of ‘being in front.’ That said, I benefit greatly from the friendships involved; I just would be bored if it was focused on “talking about people” and there wasn’t a bigger focus, a real vision, something to accomplish. I would imagine that someone who dualizes with ILI would have a sense for ‘vision.’ Why would any ILI want to hang out with me and be ‘magnetized’ to my group if all we did was gossip and alleviate loneliness?  Rather, they like it because of the big impact it is making and the ripples they see it creating in the wider scheme. They see a chance for them to make a real difference and put their mental prowess to use.

    I could do each paragraph but obviously, that’s too far off topic. Overall, there are some problems with the description but the main thrust of it is good for me. I understand that I seem nervous and move around a lot on camera, but keep in mind that speaking with no tissue on my vocal cords requires focus and having a short speech conversation on camera makes me nervous. When I was younger and had my full voice, I had zero stage fright. At age 5 I would play the lead and if someone messed up I would cover for them in character. But now I’m a neurotic mess because of very serious breathing problems, neurological damage etc. So that might have some impact on how I’m handling my body on camera. However, in person, I am much more in command and relaxed in my body.   I am not a dancer, but in this video for example, you can see the ease with which I move. I’m playing both the male role and the female role. (She is supposed to be ‘sweet’ and ‘sad,’ but my day to day personality is more similar to the male in this video.) The thing is, no matter what role I’m playing, you can see that I have nuance where force is concerned. I’m not overdoing it or under-doing it. It comes naturally to me. If I need to make the impact by sitting still and using my eyes, that’s what I do. My body just does it by itself.  When it comes time to throw my energy around, I can do that too.

    Spoiler:

    So in my view, there’s nothing wrong with SeFi, aside from the supposed inability to think two steps ahead, and the overtly social nature.  Rather than needing to socialize constantly, I’m pragmatic in knowing how to take the next step and make my dreams happen, and involve people in a spirited way.  Fi creative (literally, creative use of people, though it also involves genuine love for them), and Te HA.

    The only way I would be EIE then, is if Fe is ‘personal expression [without taking into account the political or public morale].  There are so many things wrong with it in my view.  For one, EIE would not have as intricate of a relationship with real time actions, and they would be a ‘victim’ in relationship dynamics.  To put it bluntly, my exes would laugh at the idea of me being a victim. In every area of my life, I’m a hunter-pursuer.  I don’t stop and wait for others to pick up my slack, although with my illness I’ve learned to slow down. I transferred my projects to the computer & internet because of illness, but for the first 30 years of my life I was constantly chasing my goals, leading my projects, putting myself out there in real physical time.  Always in action toward a goal or vision, or exploring my inner feelings.  And although I graduated from a great school and write books, I’m not a high-minded intellectual, who is interested in world improvement.  I’m far too self-absorbed.  Fe just doesn’t work for me.  So, I hope that makes sense.

    I did try to tell people these same arguments on WSS, about why I had to be Se ego. No one suggested SEE because I had a long term vision and ability to carry it out by myself, and for that same reason I didn’t type at it. But Auburn saved all the trouble of these arguments and just typed me based on my body signals. When I got here, I didn’t relate to his old Se description at all, but it has improved now and it’s more me. But I’ve been nudging him to include more Socionics Se in the description because that is what I relate to. Yet, without the “this person completely lacks vision/ can’t see past their nose” type of emphasis, which is what threw me off from the type in Socionics.  I find that most people are more lost on their path than I am, despite my setbacks.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @echidna1000

    You mention being interested in the expression of your personal feelings and values. An important thing here is that you say this is an ‘aesthetic’ expression, but Se in Socionics is not about aesthetic.

    Socionics links aesthetics to Si, which wouldn’t be foreign to strong Se by definition. Yet you type someone who claims to have such a focus on aesthetics at Si Vulnerable: 1D Si and 2D Se. Just doesn’t add up man.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    Echidna
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    Ivory – It’s more complex than that actually. ‘Aesthetic’ means beauty, but ‘beauty’, like may other words, can mean different things. There are many EIEs who consider themselves ‘aesthetes’. Aesthetic insofar as it corresponds to things just looking nice and welcoming, is more Si+Fe, because it is about aligning the sensory environment in a harmonious manner. However, Poetic ‘aesthetic’, which is often a more conceptual account of ‘beauty’, as some kind of meaningful, transcendent form, is far more often Ni+Fe. It’s ironic, but those who would call themselves ‘aesthetics’ were far more often Beta NFs than Alpha SFs.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @Echidna

    I wouldn’t call myself an aesthetician. In fact I don’t see the point of calling myself “an artist” or “a poet.” I prefer that my work speaks for itself, but I am very focused on the process of creating it.  My website speaks for itself.

    I only ‘call myself’ those things for the sake of discussing typology or pragmatic matters, such as signing up for music school or looking for band members. The “doing of it” is what I am focused on. The vision itself.

    I’m not.. exactly… a poet.  Music & visual arts are a far more accurate communication of my inner vision, but I’ve been trying to get better at using words so I can write my book. The story comes to me like a movie, with dialogue and action, but I don’t want to write a script because I don’t want to put the final product in someone else’s hands. I want to write a book so that I alone can control the outcome. Therefore learning writing was a pragmatic need in order to get the job done.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @echidna1000

    Of course there is nuance to this idea. But in the context of Animal’s use of aesthetics, and she explained it very well in the post above, you won’t be able to explain it via the “conceptual aesthetics,” use of poetry, dramatics, and compelling emotional speech, of the EIE. What I see in your typing of Animal as EIE is exactly a lack of nuance in how you define such aesthetics that leaves much to be desired for types such as SEE. A Gamma blindspot, if you will.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I just found this on a random blog, but I think it’s quite apt. I don’t know this source, and it might be completely invalid, written by some kid off the street. But:

    Se: impact, influence
    Se’s agenda is to have an impact or influence on what is immediately perceivable. This impact can be on oneself or the external world. It can be sensorial, like wearing a striking piece of clothing (which creates an impact on the senses), or it can be more abstract, like exercising political power. But the way we achieve an impact necessarily starts with ourselves: either movements of the physical body or speech, which creates an impact on the mental level. Thus, Se is linked to vigorousness and physical energy. One kind of influence that Se seeks is that of disciplining the self to achieve whatever outcome one wants to achieve.

    I completely agree with this. I only posted this quote, not because I support this blog in particular, but because I cannot say it better myself. Making an impact involves aesthetics. But it’s also about power… and indeed, disciplining myself to achieve an outcome is my lifestyle. That’s volition.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    Echidna
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    Ivory, she didn’t explain it in an Si way at all. It was very much an Ni conceptualisation of beauty, blocked with the Se natural forcefulness or vivacity. It’s the sort of ‘beauty’ of riding a tiger through the jungle. It’s not the sort of beauty of putting your feet up and sniffing daffodils.

    Maybe you can articulate to me what you think I’m missing and why it’s a “Gamma blind spot” 😛 What are the qualities of Gamma that you think I match up to?

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @echidna1000

    I’m not arguing that she explained it in an Si way, I was arguing that your argument around aesthetics didn’t add up (to claim that “aesthetic expression” cannot be ESI is wrong.)

    Animal’s explanation is how Se shows up with aesthetics. The tiger in the jungle, as with Animal, is primarily displayed via sensory information. This is strongly valued Se backed by Ni. This is not EIE or IEI, by the way, who rely on oral aesthetics. This is Gamma SF.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    Echidna
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    It adds up fine. It’s Fe+Ni/Se in Socionics. It’s very much a state of emotional excitation, as much as it is the experience of forceful intensity and relating it to transcendent themes.

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @echidna1000

    It adds up fine. It’s Fe+Ni/Se in Socionics. It’s very much a state of emotional excitation, as much as it is the experience of forceful intensity and relating it to transcendent themes.

    This is what I mean with “Gamma blindspot.” Gamma SF’s are aesthetes in the Se-Ni sense of the term. Attributing “emotional excitation” exclusively to Fe is where you go wrong. “Excitation” is an attribute of Pe. This blindspot shows a lack of understanding of the emotion behind Se and the emotional control of Fe.

    Fe is relational expression, with Fi being relational impression. NOT EMOTION. Emotion *in the service of* relations is the domain of F. And emotion in the service of communication is Fe specifically.

    Emotion, feeling (how one feels), is Sensation. Emotional expression is Se, hence the need for force and intensity (which is emotional in nature), and emotional impression is Si, hence their relation to the softer side of aesthetics.

    Note: emotion in the service of “being heard” is Se, as this relates to impact and presence, and this is done via an increase in intensity. This is the reality of Se leads, and why they come across as being “too emotional” and “too pushy” and “too strident” very often. It is an increase of emotional intensity in order to have their point made / be acknowledged, and this is a direct LACK of proper Fe, emotional control. SLE also notoriously struggles with this, unless they can incorporate their Fe better. For SEE, this can be more problematic as Fe isn’t valued and the logical integrity of their arguments don’t always make sense on first sight (Ti PolR), but boy can their emotional truths hit like a hammer! This pattern is typical of Se leads, yet is attributed to EIE being “dramatic.”

     

    To be consistent with how Animal describes herself and your own definitions, you would have to type her at SLE. Se+Fe, with Se lead. But you do not account for emotional expression of that magnitude in SLE’s (hint: it’s because they aren’t SF) or in ANY Se lead whatsoever (oh uh! big problem). So the nonphysical EIE is the compromise.

    By any metric in Socionics, Animal is Se lead. Your conclusion doesn’t add up “fine.”

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I don’t know much about Socionics, but it’s never too late to learn. I need to ask some questions and I’m sorry for diverging a little, it is connected to the discussion anyway, sice Jack thinks Animal is an Fe user and we think she is an Fi user.

    @Echidna, when talking about ESI (~FiSe ), you say :

    They are not usually interested in expressing their feelings, but rather prefer consulting their attitudes to decide how they relate to people and things. Expression is not intrinsically important to them, and they would rather communicate how they feel in close relationships with people who can benefit practically from this information, or can use it to stop being a nuisance.

    What do you understand by “expression“? I ask because you are starting here from the assumption that ESI only or primarily express feelings by using words. And that expressing these feelings (verbally) might not happen that often BECAUSE “expression is not intrinsically important to them”.

    How do we know they only express feelings verbally? How do we know expression is not intrinsically important to them?

    And this is your definition of Fi

    Aspect: Personal attitudes and bonds of trust. People naturally possess set characteristics of their personality which make them a certain way, and result in a certain character. The quality of this character can manifest sentimentally in what someone feels is good or bad, the inner sentiment experiencing attraction and repulsion to various stimuli. Similarly, a person’s character can be likewise judged to be good or bad by others. In this way, two people of mutually attracting characters can come together in a close bond, or if repulsing, move apart.

    So…:

    – a person feels repulsion AND

    – does not tell you in an elaborate manner she feels repulsion AND

    – this person is generally characterized as having strong personal attitudes and creating BONDS OF TRUST.

    I wonder if you see where I am going…?? It would not make sense for this person to be able to create a bond of trust with you if you could not read her emotions, her attractions and repulsions at all ! If such a bond would form, it would be a fake bond, right?? There must be a form of emotional expression here and, to be honest, a quite sophisticated and efficient one, if this person is indeed any good at building bonds of trust !! I wonder if you agree.

    So…in my opinion you are actually right…mostly. But the only way in which you could be right is if the ESI expressed emotions primarily in another way. And that way would need to be good enough for her to build bonds of trust. 🙂


    @Ivory

    This blindspot shows a lack of understanding of the emotion behind Se and the emotional control of Fe.

    Exactly ! Fe is connected to coordinated emotional expression (emotional control) whereas Fi comes with uncoordinated emotional expression (which leads to our asymmetrical smiles, giddy giggles, wounded expression, unbridled radiation and all these Fi signals that are not randomly put into this category, but that naturally happen when someone expresses emotions in an uncoordinated way. This is also why we are good at creating these bonds of trust !).

    I also like that you mention “the emotion behind Se”. This should be studied more ! There seem to be specific emotions that tend to be triggered or intensified by Se. Maybe we could open a thread about this. Not only with Se but also with other functions. There are emotional patterns that tend to develop behind/around all of them.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Bera.
    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I know very little about socionics, but based on the worldsocionics.com website, it looks like they describe Fe as “looking to convey one’s emotions as authentically as possible, making communication exaggerated and charged with passion” and “They will place an emphasis on authentic self-expression, being able to show how they feel, communicating their passions and not wanting to hide how they feel from others.”

    This seems quite opposed to how Jung described Fe: “I may feel constrained, for instance, to use the predicate ‘beautiful’ or ‘good’, not because I find the object ‘beautiful’ or ‘good’ from my own subjective feeling, but because it is fitting and politic so to do; and fitting it certainly is, inasmuch as a contrary opinion would disturb the general feeling situation.” and “In precisely the same way as extraverted thinking strives to rid itself of subjective influences, extraverted feeling has also to undergo a certain process of differentiation, before it is finally denuded of every subjective trimming. The valuations resulting from the act of feeling either correspond directly with objective values or at least chime in with certain traditional and generally known standards of value. ”

    To describe Fe as being particularly interested in “authentic self-expression,” I think you’d have to abandon a supposed connection to Jung.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    This conversation with @Echidna just proves my previous points, which I’ve written both on this thread and another thread — that Beta NF is glorified on WSS, and perhaps in other Socionics circles. My argument is that other types are stripped of humanity, whereas human qualities are given largely to Beta NF.  (Beta NF can be expressive of their personal feelings, theatrical, and still politically savvy; Beta NF can be artists, but also thinkers; Beta NF can be shy, but also outgoing; Beta NF can be impulsive and offbeat, but also can be respectable, reasonable and smart.  However, Gamma SF can be none of these things. Etc.)

    Beta NF, apparently, has the monopoly on any aesthetic expression that doesn’t fit with Si. As @Ivory pointed out there’s a “Gamma Blindspot” – because in MBTI, Beebe, CT and other models, Gamma SF is seen as the expressive aesthete, among other things.  Fi is seen as “personal expression.” These very human qualities have been stripped from Fi and Se, and instead given to Beta NF. This is why so many people (I think Echidna said it was 70 or 75%?) scored Beta NF on some test that he gave out.  His excuse was that the environment, at the place he tested, was attractive to those types.   My suspicion is that Beta NF is given the most human and diverse qualities, so most humans, consequently, can relate to the descriptions, questions and traits that are ascribed to EIE.  The conversation here is a good demonstration of why I have observed this trend on WSS.  Echidna, you said it was the other people on your forum and I shouldn’t listen to them – but frankly, you repeated the same themes in your responses, which I was addressing.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Animal.
    Echidna
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    Eh? why would a ‘Gamma Blindspot’ entail not being able to understand Gamma properly? 😛

    Ok, let’s entertain the idea that SEEs achieve ’emotional excitation’ though Se/Ni. How does that work? What is it about ’emotional excitation’ that corresponds to either Sensation or Intuition? How is ’emotional excitation’ either Detached (Intuition) or External (Sensation)? If you can’t show how ’emotional excitation’ can either be Detached or External, then you are just asserting things at me without a solid rationale for what cognitive function is what.

    What I think: ’emotional excitation’ is something which you feel, so it cannot be Detached. It is is also something you personally experience, rather than something you can slap on a wall and have others experience too, so it cannot be External. It’s Involved and it’s Internal, therefore it’s Ethics. What’s more, it’s extroverted and dynamic, something which can increase/go up in amount and isn’t something you can just maintain or refine, and something holistic which varies and shifts without precise markings and perimeters. Therefore, it’s Extroverted Ethics or ‘Emotions’.  If an SEE engages with emotional excitation, it’s their Demonstrative function, it’s not some combination of their Leading and Suggestive. It won’t be something they engage in with valued emphasis. They will instead value and work on increasing their Extroverted Logic.

     

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @echidna1000

    I can’t follow your reasoning. You make these assumptions in your post: you seem to equate detachment with intuition (introversion would like a word with that (Ti anyone?)), you equate external with sensation (extroversion????), you equate internal with feeling (Fe doesn’t exist?). You seem to think that “involved” means feeling.. don’t you think Se is involved (involved and immersed with the experience)?

    Is this from the WSS model? Because it’s not the Socionics I’ve studied…

    As to how emotional excitation would work for SEE, you’ve seen @Animal’s posts above, correct? She wrote those detailed, in-depth posts in order to demonstrate how SEE operates.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ivory.
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 33 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
© Copyright 2012-2020 | CognitiveType.com
This website's articles, its reading methodology and practices are the intellectual property of J.E. Sandoval.
Animated GIFs, images and videos belong to their respective owners.