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  • #19166
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I don't know much about Socionics, but it's never too late to learn. I need to ask some questions and I'm sorry for diverging a little, it is connected to the discussion anyway, sice Jack thinks Animal is an Fe user and we think she is an Fi user.
    @Echidna, when talking about ESI (~FiSe ), you say :

    They are not usually interested in expressing their feelings, but rather prefer consulting their attitudes to decide how they relate to people and things. Expression is not intrinsically important to them, and they would rather communicate how they feel in close relationships with people who can benefit practically from this information, or can use it to stop being a nuisance.

    What do you understand by "expression"? I ask because you are starting here from the assumption that ESI only or primarily express feelings by using words. And that expressing these feelings (verbally) might not happen that often BECAUSE "expression is not intrinsically important to them".
    How do we know they only express feelings verbally? How do we know expression is not intrinsically important to them?
    And this is your definition of Fi

    Aspect: Personal attitudes and bonds of trust. People naturally possess set characteristics of their personality which make them a certain way, and result in a certain character. The quality of this character can manifest sentimentally in what someone feels is good or bad, the inner sentiment experiencing attraction and repulsion to various stimuli. Similarly, a person's character can be likewise judged to be good or bad by others. In this way, two people of mutually attracting characters can come together in a close bond, or if repulsing, move apart.

    So...:
    - a person feels repulsion AND
    - does not tell you in an elaborate manner she feels repulsion AND
    - this person is generally characterized as having strong personal attitudes and creating BONDS OF TRUST.
    I wonder if you see where I am going...?? It would not make sense for this person to be able to create a bond of trust with you if you could not read her emotions, her attractions and repulsions at all ! If such a bond would form, it would be a fake bond, right?? There must be a form of emotional expression here and, to be honest, a quite sophisticated and efficient one, if this person is indeed any good at building bonds of trust !! I wonder if you agree.
    So...in my opinion you are actually right...mostly. But the only way in which you could be right is if the ESI expressed emotions primarily in another way. And that way would need to be good enough for her to build bonds of trust. 🙂

    @Ivory

    This blindspot shows a lack of understanding of the emotion behind Se and the emotional control of Fe.

    Exactly ! Fe is connected to coordinated emotional expression (emotional control) whereas Fi comes with uncoordinated emotional expression (which leads to our asymmetrical smiles, giddy giggles, wounded expression, unbridled radiation and all these Fi signals that are not randomly put into this category, but that naturally happen when someone expresses emotions in an uncoordinated way. This is also why we are good at creating these bonds of trust !).
    I also like that you mention "the emotion behind Se". This should be studied more ! There seem to be specific emotions that tend to be triggered or intensified by Se. Maybe we could open a thread about this. Not only with Se but also with other functions. There are emotional patterns that tend to develop behind/around all of them.

    #19184
    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I know very little about socionics, but based on the worldsocionics.com website, it looks like they describe Fe as "looking to convey one's emotions as authentically as possible, making communication exaggerated and charged with passion" and "They will place an emphasis on authentic self-expression, being able to show how they feel, communicating their passions and not wanting to hide how they feel from others."
    This seems quite opposed to how Jung described Fe: "I may feel constrained, for instance, to use the predicate 'beautiful' or 'good', not because I find the object 'beautiful' or 'good' from my own subjective feeling, but because it is fitting and politic so to do; and fitting it certainly is, inasmuch as a contrary opinion would disturb the general feeling situation." and "In precisely the same way as extraverted thinking strives to rid itself of subjective influences, extraverted feeling has also to undergo a certain process of differentiation, before it is finally denuded of every subjective trimming. The valuations resulting from the act of feeling either correspond directly with objective values or at least chime in with certain traditional and generally known standards of value. "
    To describe Fe as being particularly interested in "authentic self-expression," I think you'd have to abandon a supposed connection to Jung.

    #19206
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    This conversation with @Echidna just proves my previous points, which I've written both on this thread and another thread -- that Beta NF is glorified on WSS, and perhaps in other Socionics circles. My argument is that other types are stripped of humanity, whereas human qualities are given largely to Beta NF.  (Beta NF can be expressive of their personal feelings, theatrical, and still politically savvy; Beta NF can be artists, but also thinkers; Beta NF can be shy, but also outgoing; Beta NF can be impulsive and offbeat, but also can be respectable, reasonable and smart.  However, Gamma SF can be none of these things. Etc.)
    Beta NF, apparently, has the monopoly on any aesthetic expression that doesn't fit with Si. As @Ivory pointed out there's a "Gamma Blindspot" - because in MBTI, Beebe, CT and other models, Gamma SF is seen as the expressive aesthete, among other things.  Fi is seen as "personal expression." These very human qualities have been stripped from Fi and Se, and instead given to Beta NF. This is why so many people (I think Echidna said it was 70 or 75%?) scored Beta NF on some test that he gave out.  His excuse was that the environment, at the place he tested, was attractive to those types.   My suspicion is that Beta NF is given the most human and diverse qualities, so most humans, consequently, can relate to the descriptions, questions and traits that are ascribed to EIE.  The conversation here is a good demonstration of why I have observed this trend on WSS.  Echidna, you said it was the other people on your forum and I shouldn't listen to them - but frankly, you repeated the same themes in your responses, which I was addressing.

    #19270
    Echidna
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    Eh? why would a 'Gamma Blindspot' entail not being able to understand Gamma properly? 😛
    Ok, let's entertain the idea that SEEs achieve 'emotional excitation' though Se/Ni. How does that work? What is it about 'emotional excitation' that corresponds to either Sensation or Intuition? How is 'emotional excitation' either Detached (Intuition) or External (Sensation)? If you can't show how 'emotional excitation' can either be Detached or External, then you are just asserting things at me without a solid rationale for what cognitive function is what.
    What I think: 'emotional excitation' is something which you feel, so it cannot be Detached. It is is also something you personally experience, rather than something you can slap on a wall and have others experience too, so it cannot be External. It's Involved and it's Internal, therefore it's Ethics. What's more, it's extroverted and dynamic, something which can increase/go up in amount and isn't something you can just maintain or refine, and something holistic which varies and shifts without precise markings and perimeters. Therefore, it's Extroverted Ethics or 'Emotions'.  If an SEE engages with emotional excitation, it's their Demonstrative function, it's not some combination of their Leading and Suggestive. It won't be something they engage in with valued emphasis. They will instead value and work on increasing their Extroverted Logic.
     

    #19274
    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @echidna1000
    I can't follow your reasoning. You make these assumptions in your post: you seem to equate detachment with intuition (introversion would like a word with that (Ti anyone?)), you equate external with sensation (extroversion????), you equate internal with feeling (Fe doesn't exist?). You seem to think that "involved" means feeling.. don't you think Se is involved (involved and immersed with the experience)?
    Is this from the WSS model? Because it's not the Socionics I've studied...
    As to how emotional excitation would work for SEE, you've seen @Animal's posts above, correct? She wrote those detailed, in-depth posts in order to demonstrate how SEE operates.

    #19276
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I'm not sure if I understand the post either, but from what I can gather - you're saying that Se doesn't get excited and SEE wouldn't automatically value emotion?  So, in other words, if someone doesn't value Fe, they place no value on emotion or expression, and may just end up doing it through shadow functions without caring about it?  So, only half of the population cares about emotion or its expression, and the other half may engage it offhandedly without caring about it, but simply doesn't value it?
    If so, why should anyone accept that this system is worth studying, if its premise is to claim that half the population doesn't  value emoting, expressing emotion, exploring their own emotion, or being excited?

    #19289
    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @Echidna, I think there's been a misunderstanding about the use of the phrase "gamma blindspot." Everyone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like @Echidna thinks "gamma blindspot" means that people think he's in the gamma quadra and therefore he has a blindspot about the other quadras. Whereas what I think people are actually saying is that Echidna has a "gamma blindspot" in the sense that he has a blindspot specifically about the gamma quadra and doesn't understand that quadra well. Hopefully this will clear things up.

    #19336
    Echidna
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    Hi Ivory, this isn't just from the WSS model. These are the information dichotomies that are foundation to Model A.

    • Intuition is defined as Perception that is Internal and Detached.
    • Sensation is defined as Perception that is External and Involved
    • Ethics is defined as Judgement that is Internal and Involved
    • Logic is defined as Judgement that is External and Detached

    You need these distinctions to be able to understand what is what, or else you'll get confused and won't be able to type people in Socionics accurately.
    Emotional excitation is Internal, it's something that manifests within a person, rather than something multiple people can point to and re-share without re-interpretation. It is also Involved, something you feel, rather than think about. Therefore, it must be Ethics in Socionics.

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