Se & Ne – Ditziness/Scatteredness

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  • Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Ditziness and Scatteredness has been more widely attributed to Ne in CT, but it appears to have a common core that is Pe — with different expressions in Se and Ne. I’ve recently had the chance to clarify the matter on Discord, and I’d like to present it here for a more permanent record:

    With Se’s, they can be scattered but within tangible topics. lemmy be stereotypical for a sec here, i apologize, it’s on the spot. but try to look past my silly example and more at the cognitive style.

    Se – “and so i broke up with him”
    Se – “but y’know, i think i’m happier now.. OH did I show you my new phone?”
    Se – “yea, I bought it on discount. actually, there was this really cute guy wher I bought it”
    B – (“oh?)
    Se – “yea, but i’m not trying to get into a new relationship right now.”
    Se – “not sure i can handle it, y’know?”

    The above discussion is scattered. there is a shift in topic, and it can even be continual, but each shift happens to another concrete topic. with Ne, the topics get further and further removed from reality itself, rather than leaping from one topic to another. so for example, with Ne:

    Ne: “why don’t you wear the red hat?”
    B: “its discolored from the wash”
    Ne: “isn’t there some red dye you can use?”
    B: “no”
    Ne: “what if i add ketchup to the washer, y’think that’d do it? like.. purposefully staining it, y’know?”
    B: “eh?”
    Ne: “i could totally make a youtube channel on this, get famous bro”
    Ne: “but what would i use for blue? shit..”
    Ne: “blueberries? …no, aren’t they too expensive”

    Ok so the topics of each example are:

    Se:
    – relationships/breakups
    – life happiness
    – merchandise
    – moving on from relationships

    Ne:
    – hats
    – dying/coloring clothes
    – youtube business
    – ketchup & blueberries

    Now one could argue that hats, youtube, ketchup and blueberries are all.. tangible things. yes. But the ideas are all hypothetical. before even worrying about whether blueberries are too expensive, one has to wonder why the heck they’re needed in the first place. if premise 1 is accepted (dying clothes with food is marketable) then it makes sense, but the premise is so far-removed from plausibility, that the whole conversation is floating atop of a hypothetical conjecture.

    That’s how Ne’s conversations can be and that’s what i mean by “floating away.”

    Thus, as with all things in CT, it’s not so much what topics are touched… but in how they’re approached. With Ne, it gets euphoric the more it floats away. And with Se, it feels deeper and more meaningful proportional to how much they ‘sink in’ to it and learn/discuss what happened or is happening.

    Hope this helps clarify. 🙂

     

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    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Shallowness & Triviality:

    Discussing with Animal recently, we came to realize that Ne’s and Se’s can have opposite views of what they see as trivial dialogue. For Ni/Se’s it may seem like shallowness and triviality to goof around with senseless ideas. It can lack depth and real value. Ni/Se can look at Ne and realize that just because it’s abstract doesn’t mean it’s deep, and it can instead be seen as lacking substance and being frivolous. They’d much rather discuss topics in a realistic sense (Se), but as gateways towards universal truths (Ni) of being.

    Oppositely, for Ne/Si’s it can seem trivial to only focus on maters of literal proximity, when there’s a whole universe(s) of unexplored ideas that are unbound by the topics of day-to-day happenings, and which won’t be reached by talking about what is already here. Those who cannot explore beyond the available.. are seen as tethered down by a sort of mundanity. But of course, for Ne what is meant by “mundanity” is specific to whatever is on the opposite side of their native mode of consciousness.

    And so in this way, both can view the other as airheaded. But it boils down to a matter of priority, value and epistemology.

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    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I think I already told you guys I like Ne a lot. I never thought of Ne use as frivolous or trivial. Most high Ne people I know are very smart, funny and original.

    Sometimes they derail conversations completely but since I am a Pe lead and actually like to explore different ideas while talking to people, I don’t see it as negative.

    We were talking about it on the chat these days and I admitted I tend to sometimes bring conversations back to a certain topic when I feel they are being derailed but I think I only do this when that topic has not yet been completely explored or when something remained unexplained. I also tend to change the conversation when I feel that it could go in a risky direction, for example when the Ne lead starts to make fun connections that I think could offend someone.

    I also make blunders in conversations (because of Fi probably :)) ) but I think high Ne users are more at risk of making them because they keep freely associating different ideas and jumping from one realm to the other and the speed with which they make their associations puts them at risk of saying something they should not. So, I have these moments when my main reaction to Ne talk is – shut up, Candypantz !!! :)))

    It’s not that I don’t like the jumps, I love them. I just get worried that someone else could feel hurt, offended or exposed. Especially with the Ne and Te combo.

    I believe Ne users can purposefully shake things up, like Se users also do, but with Se there usually is a build up and I can guess 5 sentences before where it’s all going…Ne can directly jump to something uncomfortable and then it’s too late to repair the damages done. :))

    Now, I can not express how much I dislike Se trivialities. They can make me feel repulsed. This almost never happens here though, because we are a smaller demographic of people who share some serious interests. Here if we exchange Se trivialities it is either to bond better (showing vulnerabilities can help you connect with others, I guess, and Se trivial talk can be seen as a weakness) or in a half joking way. I sincerely hope I don’t come off like someone who only cares about clothes, make up and gossip. :)) Not that clothes, make up and gossip are not also important in their own way – self expression is not trivial. Neither is trying to understand people’s motives. But if the scales get inclined more in this direction than in the…spiritual development direction, broadly speaking, of course your values should be carefully considered.

    So, I think every type can be pretty shallow and pretty deep. Ideally we accept both sides as part of ourselves and live a balanced life, in which we can go from deep to shallow and back to deep depending on the situation. Unexplored potential can also be dangerous, because maybe the trivialities we might be interested in actually have a deeper meaning or could be developed in a constructive way. For example being obsessed with a certain look can reveal a hidden wish to develop a side of ourselves. And thinking “this is a waste of time and energy, make up is not my thing, I should better read another book” could make us push this side further back and go on with our lives not realizing it even exists.

    Some days ago I pinned 200 door images on Pinterest. 🙂 And it looks trivial and I could think hey, these are just different door designs, why am I doing it? But maybe underneath there is a desire to open or close a door. (I don’t really know yet what the doors mean, I will one day put them in a collage to see). It’s actually very hard to label something as trivial because everything we do has more than one layer of meaning. And most of the times part of these layers are hidden underneath the surface.

    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera said

    ”We were talking about it on the chat these days and I admitted I tend to sometimes bring conversations back to a certain topic when I feel they are being derailed but I think I only do this when that topic has not yet been completely explored or when something remained unexplained.”

    This is something I tend to do quite a lot as well. It doesn’t annoy me or make me upset in any way, but I’ll make many comments such as “wow, we’ve gotten so far off topic now,” or “we must have covered 15 different topics by now.” That’s when everyone else I’m talking to says, “I don’t even remember what we started out talking about,” so I have to remind them. Or maybe I won’t say anything and I’ll just make some clever remark that relates to both the current and original topic to try to merge back onto the original highway. I don’t have any particular reason for doing this other than I’m still thinking about the original topic and I like things to be neat and orderly.

    That being said I have noticed other people having much stronger reactions against this sort of thing and getting angry about the conversation getting off topic. No one has ever gotten angry at me for it that I can recall.


    @auburn
    said

    “Oppositely, for Ne/Si’s it can seem trivial to only focus on maters of literal proximity, when there’s a whole universe(s) of unexplored ideas that are unbound by the topics of day-to-day happenings, and which won’t be reached by talking about what is already here. Those who cannot explore beyond the available.. are seen as tethered down by a sort of mundanity. But of course, for Ne what is meant by “mundanity” is specific to whatever is on the opposite side of their native mode of consciousness.

    Ugh, yeah. I do find this annoying tbh.

    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @elisaday

    This is something I tend to do quite a lot as well. It doesn’t annoy me or make me upset in any way, but I’ll make many comments such as “wow, we’ve gotten so far off topic now,” or “we must have covered 15 different topics by now.” That’s when everyone else I’m talking to says, “I don’t even remember what we started out talking about,” so I have to remind them. Or maybe I won’t say anything and I’ll just make some clever remark that relates to both the current and original topic to try to merge back onto the original highway. I don’t have any particular reason for doing this other than I’m still thinking about the original topic and I like things to be neat and orderly.

    Yes, usually I only say it when the first subject was relevant and the conversation has diverged to something completely irrelevant. Like for example if we are talking about how to solve a problem and someone else diverges the topic to a video game or to politics or whatever. Time is precious and we wanted to solve an issue. Also when people are sharing deep emotional stuff and someone diverges topic to something random I tend to bring it back to the main subject.

    This is one of the reasons I prefer to go out with 1 -3 people and not with large groups. Because in a large group it’s harder for everyone to be on a similar wavelength. I love activities with larger groups though. Like playing board games. But for me going out with 10 friends to chill is…quite tiring. Always readapting emotionally to everything everyone says…paying attention to be nice to everyone…it sucks out a lot of energy and doesn’t bring much in exchange ! 🙁 But when you are doing an activity with a group it’s different ! Less emotional energy is spent and you are entertained/learn new things at the same time.

    Indeed the best way to solve these issues is to say something that connects the first topic to the last one. 🙂 When you say “but let’s get back to what we were talking about earlier” some people can feel uncomfortable.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    When I’m talking to one person, it doesn’t matter what type they are. I can find common ground with most people and my level of interest is unrelated to type.  The problems begin when several Ne/Si people are all talking about non existent what-ifs and abstractions, and I cannot bring myself to follow the conversation or to find any relevance.  On top of that, I had the sense that in the “wolfpit” Se/Ni chat, it was common for one topic to be explored in depth, whereas outside wolfpit there was significantly more tangent hopping.  Topic exploration feels like A to B to C to D among fellow Se/Ni people, whereas Ne/Si people go from A to C to F to N.  (To be fair, this might be a personal bias.)  As for me – I tend to over-focus.  I can go with other people’s flow, but I prefer having close relationships with people who can stick with a topic and dissect it down to the bone.

    Regarding the OP – I do care about relationships and feelings about them.  I don’t care to talk about food, merchandise or ‘ random objects,’ and I’m not interested in events ‘for the sake of events.’  For me, a real life anecdote is an example of a bigger point. By exploring reality, I garner a sense of the patterns that unfold over time. I can make future predictions with great accuracy because I notice what’s real and how it changes over time, and how it matches something else I’ve seen. Since I tune into the unfolding of events, I feel the rhythm of the world. 🙂

    To me, the cultural trend of writing off reality as “mundane” and worshipping escapism and abstraction is amoral. Although it makes sense that we have evolved away from “working with our hands” as machines come to replace this necessity for many of us, there is still the reality of humans, family values and the interpersonal world – and the widespread trend of replacing its importance with abstractions on the internet has clear consequences. Many children used to learn trades, but now we go to school to learn distant theories – which has trained us to over-value distant intangibles and undervalue what is in front of us. I will explain some thoughts on this in the spoiler.

    Spoiler:
    I don’t have a problem with people who genuinely don’t care about sociopolitical events and live in a mindset outside of it.  However, I find it most offensive when someone claims reality is “boring” or “mundane,” but then I see them argue based on media stories about real people(s) they have never met, countries they have never visited, healthcare they have never had to use.  These people are talking about some fantasy version of reality while scoffing at the one that actually happens.  To me, the widespread reliance on media to tell us what is real – is a moral issue.  The disconnection with reality among the general populous (regardless of type) – has widespread consequences when it comes to elections, policy and decisions that affect actual people by the millions.  Cultural ideals around escapism and ‘ignoring banal things like relationships and real life events’ have paved the path to widespread cultural indoctrination, not to mention broken families.

    Here’s an example. My father, NiFe, approached several black people in our local mall to ask some questions. The first was:  “Is racism a problem in this country?” They all said yes huge huge problem. He said, “Can you name one incident where you experienced it?”  Most could not come up with anything; only one reported a very minor event.  This is one of many examples in which people drew conclusions based on media, while paying minimal attention to their own reality. Of course, it’s obvious that just because they didn’t experience racism, doesn’t mean that nobody in the USA does. But, it’s funny to me that they didn’t mention this. If someone had asked me whether my race was subject to racism in USA, my first response would be “Well it hasn’t happened to me, or anyone else that I know of personally… but I read that in some states [people of my race] get killed by cops, and poverty rates are higher. Have you been there, experienced it, or seen it yourself?  Do you know anything about it, outside the stories in the media?”  I would be open to dialogue, but my default would be to mention what I have or haven’t experienced, or heard about directly.  I would then want to hear the other person’s direct experience. This is logical to me, since everyone claims to agree that the media is full of lies. I’d rather listen to real people and draw conclusions that way.

    I notice in political debates, many people don’t consider lived, experienced reality to be relevant. Their ideas are all based on stories by the same media outlets which they claim to distrust.  So when do we start paying attention to real things, like “a year into Obama’s  presidency, my food prices quadrupled.” I noticed this quickly — research came out to support this much later.  But I don’t need to ask the tv because I’m perfectly capable of assessing most important conclusions simply by living my life. And the fact that most people completely ignore (or undervalue) their actual experience is exactly why the media is able to fool people by the billions.

    That’s why reality matters to me. It has consequences.  My interest is not Obama himself, nor food prices – though that impacted my life very directly.  What is most relevant to me is how people overlooked this in favor of believing he was the Messiah because the media said so.  When I would bring up my worries that Obama policy was hurting the economy, and ask friends about higher food prices – which was an undeniable reality for them too – they would launch into defensive accusations that made no sense, like calling me racist or ‘far right.’  This reaction provided real, timeless insight about human beings and the gullibility of the mind, as well as partisan loyalty – a pattern which extends to sports, war, social cliques, and more.  When I see these trends occurring in people at large, I also take a look at myself and examine my own biases – something that people tend to miss when they’re ignoring reality.

    When looking at myself, I try to make sure my personal life is consistent with my ideology, and I have faced harsh wake-up calls which inspired me to reconsider my beliefs.  Many people don’t care about this – for themselves or others.  One example is that I’ve met Michael Moore and knew his daughter – he is very rich and his daughter had any opportunity that anyone could ask for in the capitalist world. They were both very nice interpersonally, but I cannot appreciate his outlook on capitalism considering he takes full advantage of it.  Many other anti- capitalist figures own several houses.  Trump, for all his flaws, stands for ideology and policies that are consistent with the way he has lived his actual life. I find it bizarre that most people are willing to overlook such blatant hypocrisy, not only in voting and ideology, but in their own personal life. They pressure people to support ideals that they themselves do not carry out.  I see this pattern everywhere – and it tells me that the refusal to acknowledge reality is the backbone of much immorality in the world.

    Patterns repeat themselves, habits form as a result of our actions, and decisions have consequences. Mindset and behavior is an organic result of ongoing decisions – many of which we have control over.  So when people say things like “anything could happen at any time” and “I did this randomly..” I think… maybe that’s because you aren’t paying attention to what’s actually happening, or the mindset within yourself that lies at its root. I am usually on point about another person’s overall outlook – which is why, when I write fictional characters based on real people, the people are taken aback that I captured the workings of their mind.  Also, I am often correct in predicting upcoming trends – anything from people’s behavior to major world events that I happen to care about.  I see consistency, predictability and most likely outcomes. For people who just look at theoreticals, they may perceive “anything could happen” and “anyone could do or become anything” since they have not seen the pattern that has been unfolding in reality the whole time.

    So, getting back to type, this is why Ne/Si abstract theorizing can seem “shallow” and irrelevant to me.  Although I also find things like makeup, gossip and parties offensively boring – at least, they provide some insight into the currents of modern reality – whereas “what if?” … provides nothing for me.

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    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, just a short mention, when I gave politics as an example of something random people tend to use to diverge a topic, I didn’t mean it is generally irrelevant ! I just meant a situation when a real life problem that must be solved is being discussed and someone changes the subject to a more general topic. I have nothing against general topics, of course, but I prioritize my and my friend’s issues. Now, politics has an impact on our lives but since I can only change it by voting, it’s not something I generally discuss. If I wanted to be a politician or if I worked for the State and had a position in which it mattered to which party I am affiliated, I would focus much more on it.

    And this brings the question – is focus on the “real life/tangible” vs. the “world of ideas/theories” the most relevant distinction or is it actually a distinction between “issues that personally impact you” (which can be tangible or ideas) vs. “general issues that are important to humanity/interesting to explore“.

    Cause, to be completely honest, I never ever looked at differences in prices and I only inform myself about the minimum information necessary in order to be able to vote. Because I…dislike reality. Which is what I actually tried to say from the beginning in many ways but I think I didn’t manage. I dislike facts and numbers and having to pay attention to people in…the real world. What I want to explore is mostly…not physical.

    But – I don’t care very much about things that don’t directly impact me or close people. But these things that impact us and that we discuss are usually more on the psychological/spiritual side. When I go out with my best friend we absolutely never mention prices or politics (except when people are literally yelling in the street in front of the restaurant, oh dear, Marie Antoinette comes to mind :))) ). We talk about relationships, friendships, connections between people who are close to us, motives of people to do certain things…aaaand astrology, CT, enneagram now that I started learning about it, tarot, what each of us dreamed, my discussions with my therapist when I go to her – and I only go to her to explore inner stuff, so it’s not health related -, her discussions with her spiritual teacher, whether ghosts exist and possible supernatural experiences, different divination practices, shamanism, near death experiences, out of body experiences, fantasy books and movies and DnD. This is what we talk about. She does casually show me she bought a new purse or I tell her the perfume she got me smells good but the vast majority of what we talk about is completely…in another realm. This is why I love her, though I don’t completely agree with her…I am not sure everything she says is true but it is very relevant for me ! And I think she is gamma too, I think she is TeNi but I am not sure at all since I don’t know any other TeNis…I could be wrong.

    I just wanted to say this is a huge pattern in my life that I can’t possibly ignore. But – all this fantasy and all the woo, if real or not, is perceived by us as having a direct impact on our lives ! It is about whether she has a bond from her previous life to this certain guy or not. Of course, you can build a whole world view about reincarnation, karma and connections from previous lives…but it all starts with her. Not with the global/general but with the personal. But this personal is very much connected to the spiritual, the other world, the energies playing out here that come from that…other place. Or that are connected with that other place or reflecting something real that’s there.

    Basically what jelle said about the SeFi Crystal Witch Shade :)))

    We also think we see patterns. I can not objectively say we do, I would like to keep a healthy level of doubt but we draw inspiration out of many sources and try to build a wider world view keeping connected to the real world…by focusing on what is definitely not real in the sense of tangible.

    But then, all our experience is based on what we perceive as real…and our growth is based on our experience. So I think as long as you remain a productive individual that can play a more materialistic/down on earth role believably enough to keep a job…it is worth exploring everything that spikes your interest. And it just so happens all this dabbling with woo spikes our interest a lot. 😉

    And another thing – this whole Gamma Crystal Scrying is completely different from building abstract philosophical theories. I can’t form a long sentence using philosophical terminology. I want to know the future. I want to know the past. I want to know how to gather all energy in the world and make it explode. I don’t need (yet) to put it into a very clearly defined framework, I first want to see if it works and how. Although…after seeing how it works I tend to make connections and try to build it all into a system. But the  gamma spirit realm is not – theory/abstract ideas. It’s a different type of unreal. :)) Oh, I know. It is the sacred. (as opposed to the profane)

    This started with “oh, just a short mention…” :)))

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    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @Bera

    Politics is not just powerful people making speeches and laws. There are politics going on between everyone, all the time. Politics is utterly human – and it operates on local, as well as grand, scales.

    My interest in politics began when I had to leave middle school due to racism against Jews and the racial tensions in general – which turned against me and many others.  I was not traumatized by this, but rather, interested to learn why it happened. Why racism exists, why we respond to it the way we do – why humans are the way we are. Further, I have a political illness and policy directly affects whether I can get medicine. Food prices affected whether or not I could continue living my life as I was, pursuing my dream. With a chronic illness, I cannot keep a full time job. I am among the many vulnerable citizens who are at the mercy of policy, and its impact on me is a catalyst which inspires me to learn more.

    I actually find politics quite fascinating and, much like George RR Martin, the rhythm and tensions in politics have woven their way into my novels. My story revolves mostly around characters and their relationships, but the magic and politics unfold and affect them – and some become politicians, while others act out politics in their daily life, as everyone does (whether they realize it or not).

    I find interest in discovering the trends that repeat timelessly and eternally. It starts with my subjective experience and that of people around me, my country, my time period – then branches out, through research and more experience – to encapsulate timeless themes. This is where my real interest lies. I find it incredibly inspiring to weave these themes into my fiction work and to seek out the patterns that repeat ad nauseum, the inevitabilities; the rhythm of the world.

    But even in fiction, the experience begins with individual characters. And from there, the timeless and eternal may spawn.

    This is also what’s behind my interest in enneagram. People, animals, countries and planets have personalities. The system reveals their rhythm. To me and those I work with, enneagram is a language which interprets and communicates Natural Law.

    And this is why I maintain that Se is not shallow or ditzy for me. It provides information that facilitates my work and reveals the essence of all things.   There is no Ni without Se and no Se without Ni.  I don’t seek to “escape” reality – but rather – to use the immediate, experiential reality as a map to reveal eternity in all its glory.  My hope is to tap into the pulse of the world, however limited my experience of it may be.

    ____________________________

    Edit:

    @Bera
    – I wanted to address this too. I only left parts of your quote so it wouldn’t be too long:

    things that impact us and that we discuss are usually more on the psychological/spiritual side…. relationships, friendships, connections… motives of people… astrology, CT, enneagram… tarot, what each of us dreamed, discussions with my therapist…  inner stuff… discussions with her spiritual teacher… possible supernatural experiences, different divination practices, shamanism, near death experiences, out of body experiences, fantasy books and movies…

    the vast majority of what we talk about is completely…in another realm.

    I have mostly the same type of conversations with my friends, except…

    we absolutely never mention prices or politics

    To me, this is part of ‘motives of people to do certain things,’ ‘exploring inner stuff,’ and ‘another realm.’  Since politics has become an interest of mine, which goes beyond just ‘Earth’ and extends to my fictional work – I draw parallels to real life, relationships between people, Game of Thrones, and more – and it becomes part of the ‘other realm.’

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    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    TBerg
    Participant
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Directive

    For me, real life was the testing ground for all of the ethereal ideas I inherited from my family and the surrounding political culture.  All of the ethereal ideas were put under the scrutiny of how they related to the state of my soul and how my soul was impacted by them.  So, when I considered the validity of Modern Liberal ideas, I knew they were false from the very beginning just because my soul, born from a certain nature and formed and mangled through life experience, directly contradicted them.

    I knew, for example, that the denigration of strong, masculine males was quite insidious, because not only did I recognize the damage done through my inheritance of certain shortcomings as a male but I also recognized that the source of family misfortune was the selection of my father, with his shortcomings, as a father.  So I knew that it was not because my dad was too assertive and aggressive that was the problem but the fact that he barely knew how to assert himself at all in the most important matters.  This led to countless periods of suffering for my mother, as he was no able to carry her through her own chaotic periods, and gave me no demonstration of the depth of masculine power for me to practice and emulate in my own life.

    Another aspect was that my mom taught me the virtues of pacifism.  When I looked at the way in which our family operated and the way in which these virtues were supposedly implemented, I couldn’t help but see how utterly ineradicable aggression and bellicosity is from the human spirit.  How could it be that people so quick to anger and division and demonization preached so much peace and tolerance?  It seemed to me that the moral pronouncements about peace were extremely hollow and also sometimes just plain disingenuous.  My mom frequently talks about how she “could kill someone” jokingly and casually when they do something to disappoint her.  It also alarmed and felt like betrayal when she defended not killing someone to protect children.

    Another very important part of my political development has been my relationship to my best friend, Diana, who comes from Honduras.  We both started our lives as liberals, but we also influenced each other to become more and more right-wing as we grew older.  The first thing for me was that, as a conventional white liberal, I sometimes made excuses for the behavior of black people and also tried to explain to her the apparent double standards in the United States when it came to making every excuse in the book for black people and yet accuse white people of every single thing imaginable.  She sometimes ridiculed my naive and sometimes inane efforts to justify the double standards and explain away the behavior of people of color, and we kept debating in very honest ways about it.

    As she continued to work in urban environments, however, and related to me her experience therefrom as well as her experience in the Hispanic community and working with white liberals, it became more and more obvious to both me and her that the conventional narrative in the mainstream media, driven by liberal academics and activists, was pretty much the complete opposite of the truth.  She would relate to me the reality of her experiencing time and time again her efforts to help black ghetto communities being rejected and then their leaders subsequently blame outsiders for “turning their backs” while it was the communities that turned their backs on themselves and the wider society.  People of color and women in her work environment also demonstrated conniving and gossipy natures that made her diligence more and more difficult.  They simply were so far inside the Progressive Bubble that they couldn’t even entertain the ideas she had to propose.

    Another thing was how she was treated by white liberals.  White liberals have to be some of the most insufferable people on the planet.  Diana can eat them for breakfast, but she has recounted to me the most pathetic and annoying stories about the activists with whom she interacts as well as the more wealthy liberal donors she courts for her nonprofit work.  They are incredibly self-involved people.  When she talks to them and they start spouting ideas about how damaging racism is and she gives them clear information to contradict it, they have excuse after excuse to explain so many contradictions away.  When she tells them about, as someone from Honduras that she has never felt racism and has a favorable view of America, it seems time and time again as though these white women with whom she is talking are disappointed to learn it.  It’s like they need victims to maintain power.  They also like her coworker better because her coworker mimics a ghetto accent and dialect in public presentations while Diana tries to be as professional as possible in delivery.  Diana can also convince white liberal men to admit that Trump may have some good points mostly because of how attractive Diana is to them.

    This is how politics seems very real to me.


    @Bera
    @Animal

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Yes, @Tberg – I agree with every single word of your post, in the way that real, personal events unfold to reveal larger truths.  I operate exactly the same way, except that – while you say reality is the testing ground for the ethereal ideas you inherited, I would say my ethereal ideas spawn from my experience of reality.  Of course, my culture taught me things – and I had to unlearn some of what I learned, like all humans – but for me, especially as a kid, most abstract ideals didn’t stick unless I experienced something personally that made them hit home.  So, I did not have to dig as deeply to unwind ideas that I had internalized, since my first point of reference is Se, personal experience of reality. However, I have to work much harder to string together cohesive theories of the wider world the way you and other Ni people do.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Animal.
    TBerg
    Participant
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Directive

     


    @animal

    I can see what you mean about how it is like a reverse process for both of us.  My Ni starts with a central idea and tests its integrity and ability to place itself in the center of reality and life, while your Se starts with the kaleidoscope of reality and life and gradually starts to appear as a unified whole.

    Two little additional tidbits:

    She prefers rednecks to white liberals and finds them infinitely easier to deal with.  They are more honest and genuine even in their “racism.”  She jokes that, if ever there is another civil war, she will go to the country and drink Coors Light with “Billy Bob” while holed up in a bunker.

    She feels a lot safer in the part of the country surrounding the Klan headquarters than the area of the country surrounding ghetto and barrios.


    @bera

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera

    Sometimes they derail conversations completely but since I am a Pe lead and actually like to explore different ideas while talking to people, I don’t see it as negative.

    Yes Pe lead, and Seelie. Both of which contribute to the acceptance of non-native information. Specifically, PeFi Seelie’s tend to get along with everyone. Thus it would make it so your experience of Ne is one that is “different but interesting” in its own way, rather than jarring.

    We were talking about it on the chat these days and I admitted I tend to sometimes bring conversations back to a certain topic when I feel they are being derailed but I think I only do this when that topic has not yet been completely explored or when something remained unexplained.

    Yes ultimately your Se/Ni will wanna bring it back on point.


    @elisaday

    This is something I tend to do quite a lot as well. It doesn’t annoy me or make me upset in any way, but I’ll make many comments such as “wow, we’ve gotten so far off topic now,” or “we must have covered 15 different topics by now.” That’s when everyone else I’m talking to says, “I don’t even remember what we started out talking about,” so I have to remind them.

    In your case, this tendency comes from your lead Ji, which is also inconvenienced by distractions in topic. It’s one of those behavioral overlaps. I think “bringing topics back on track” is not exclusive to a function, but can be because of J functions (Te and Fe would certainly want to) or Se/Ni or even Si.


    @animal

    When I’m talking to one person, it doesn’t matter what type they are. I can find common ground with most people and my level of interest is unrelated to type.

    Right. More support for my idea that PeFi Seelie’s are especially able to get along with most people. Fluidity (Pe) and resonance/permeability (Fi) together makes for a very relatable presence. Especially if you layer female atop of it.


    @bera

    And this brings the question ? is focus on the “real life/tangible” vs. the “world of ideas/theories” the most relevant distinction or is it actually a distinction between “issues that personally impact you” (which can be tangible or ideas) vs. “general issues that are important to humanity/interesting to explore“.

    The distinction between Se and Ne dialogue styles, insofar as there is one, is not between “real life/tangible” vs. the “world of ideas/theories” but between “matters of tangible proximity” and “floating away to far flung and/or fictional topics.” I think Animal captured it well when she said Se goes A to B to C to D, while Ne goes A to C to F to N. In both cases, A/B/C/D/F/N can all be physical things, but with Ne there’s a tendency to “leap” between topics rather indiscriminately/boundlessly and also to not linger. This is also the “tiptoe” quality of Ne.

    As a sidenote– I especially think using the phrase “world of ideas/theories” is dangerous. Firstly “idea” is as general a term as “thought” — and all 8 functions have ideas, just as they’re all forms of thought.

    Secondly, the J functions are very driven by ideas/theories too. Many theorists are TeSi (Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins, etc), TiSe (Sam Harris, Elon Musk), etc. I don’t think the main distinction between S and N is real vs theoretical, it’s between the real and the surreal/fantastical. Surreal is not the same thing as theoretical.

    Theoretical takes, as you pointed out, a kind of structure and form. It takes J function involvement in the creation of coherent ideas that can be superimposed onto life as a representative structure.

    But both Ne and Ni are not necessarily building theories. In the case of Ne, it’s more like daring experimentation of image-association, and with Ni it’s stitching together layers of karmic fabric across dimensions. Ne and Ni are closer to “magic” than they are to theory.

    It’s a different type of unreal. :)) Oh, I know. It is the sacred. (as opposed to the profane)

    Yes, precisely.

    Also I like the phrase “SeFi Crystal Witch Shade.” There’s quite a few. They could be their own case study.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Auburn.
    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    What’s been said here is great, and feels accurate.

    I won’t be adding much novelty to the conversation, except for the confirmation of what has been established.

    As a Se-Ni devotee, I cannot help but be wanting to sink my teeth into material in great depth. In our private lives, @Animal and I will have conversations on the same topic that can last for days, and that will be resumed at other times when new information and/or revelations have come forward. While we may limit the topic itself, we wish to address many facets of the object of interest and color its canvas to the greatest extent within our capability. We seek to saturate ourselves with the object/topic, if you will.

    Then, as a J(i) lead, the desire for order in all things will compound with the impulse towards the “real,” the “tangible proximity,” even if the “real” involves the spiritual and the archetypal. I become an arbiter of ‘keeping on track’ with the conversation, similar to @elisaday , with the difference being that Ne in particular can be incredibly strenuous to my system of thought. I seek definition and classification, but often object to ones that I have not witnessed myself. Because of this, I can adore fiction, as long as it follows the ‘rules of the real’ as they are set in that world, and that they in turn are symbolic of ours. The further away one moves from the ‘rules of the real,’ the more it violates my sense of integrity.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Ivory.
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