Psych ER to development War of the Roses

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  • CourtJester
    Blocked
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Directive

     

    @auburn I mean no disrespect in this video. It is me being playful, whilst shaking it up a bit. Se is conscious, two Se doms also saw it. Fe is also full blown there and Ti is more subdued. You can see them all working together and it is a cool flow. I really think I did it. Nearly lost my mind in the process.

    Please check. *I am also rubbing my knee cap it looks like here* If you struggle to see it’s there. Also it was pointed out to me my vultology does look very different from anything prior and I am blinking more.

    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Directive

    I have to look at when I have more time. I see animation. Dirting eyes. Ti. But Fe seem to only be doing excerted pushes as if you are only explaininb your world without seeing the experience of the other. You could be doing NiFe I-II.

    GreenCoyote
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    Im no pro but you have Pe casual hands and movements that have a bit of bubbling momentum. You can see how your Fe blends with the Se in your hand motions in that they are equally casual and determined. While still retaining more of the Se casual motions.

     

    i want to say i saw some swaying but then back to grounding. But there is some swaying in there.

    even if Se isn’t “developed” this is a big difference from previous videos. More Se signals than before. Enough to be developed? Only the all mighty auburn will know. Heh.

    love you auburn 🧡

    CourtJester
    Blocked
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Directive

    @epicentity @greencoyote

    All of us fully conscious by March 🙂 Then we deliver Gamma, Alpha, and Delta.

    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Directive

    Although the Cognitive Type is dealt during conception. Enneagram is dealt during the upbringing of childhood. I’d say the fighting energy comes from the 8 gut-fix within your 684 tri-fix. In some minor way you had to be the disciplinary protection for some nurturing leader that served the more innocent members of the group.

    Added note: All suffered the most childhood trauma from… 8 was a sub disciplinary. 2 was a sub nurturer. 6 was living with too few rules. 1 was living with too many rules. 3 has had more than other kids. 7 has had less than other kids. 5 has had to find it’s own sub role. 4 disassociated from both parents. 9 associated to both parents.

    I think you are demonstrating NiFe IIII at this temporary moment. You may want to work on a few more videos where you are freed from your temper.

    All of us seeing how we can make the most of what we have and what we can do by March 😎.

     

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by EpicEntity.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    okay, there’s a lot I have to think about here — but I’ll do so out loud. the first thing that comes to mind is that i worry about how “fast” these developments are happening from the forum Betas, and what effects that may have. We’re essentially seeing a laboratory take place here, with the application of CT + growth/transformation.

    and it hasn’t been entirely flawless. there are signs i’m seeing of turbulence in the process. and so i feel a level of responsibility here, if i’ve participated in guiding people down a path that can lead to less psychic stability. officially speaking CT is not for psychotherapeutic and character-growth purposes, and i could hide under that disclaimer but admittedly I do wish for CT to participate in the realms of psychotherapy and psychoanalysis in the future.

    and if that is to happen, learning about these experiences is paramount. so what i’d like to do is supervise some of this more closely. and i’m sorry that i haven’t done so very well so far.

    /// Video

    As for what i see in the video above, we don’t have examples of NiFe llll to compare, and maybe the net presence of both J functions conscious restricts the show of Pe, but I do see a difference between you and our other Se-conscious NiFe (Albert Camus).

    Pe development typically leads to less intensity, less ferocity and more “chill” or joviality; a casual and laid back posture. More drifting and gliding, especially when both P functions are conscious in a P-lead. What I am seeing instead in your vultology is a J-heaviness, specifically of Directive Fe. Directive Fe is, by itself, enough to cause the changes in assertiveness that you describe — and to differentiate you out from other INFJs. Se isn’t as aggressive in CT as it is in systems like Socionics, so this is coming from your Fe.

    /// End

    In observing @scientiam , @rondo and you – I can see just how involved and heavy the process of function integration can be. And CT  definitely needs to be more fleshed out in how to go about this process. What I’m seeing lately is that the moment a function burst into consciousness, it seems to over-correct as the immediate impulse. Like the splash of a wine bottle when you first uncork it.

    Jay, I don’t think you need both Fe and Se at the same time right now.. or I think it might be dangerous to try to integrate more than one function at a time, since your Fe still appears to be in the process of finding its equilibrium with other psychic roommates.

    I don’t yet know the side-effects of trying to do too much CT development at a time, but for now I’d caution trying to develop another function while the previous is not fully settled. That said, “how do we settle it?” becomes the next question. Let me see if I can source what I know so far…

    Directive Fe Integration?

    (+) The biggest benefits of directive Fe is that it takes you away from victimhood and into self-possession, and self-ownership. You “own your shit” and that is empowering and can lead to confidence and a certain kind of self esteem. Rather than be subject to the world’s whims, you rise up to the challenge and battle against the forces that ail you.

    (-) The biggest problem directive Fe faces is that it is disagreeable and can bully others using negative judgments, offensive remarks and criticisms. It can “push people away” and leave someone isolated or worse off than when they developed it. It can ruin relationships but also lead to a habit of having calloused emotions– which is a different sort of cowardice, but of sensitivity and frailty. The “power” of directive Fe is easiest to see, because directive Fe demonstrates that power openly. But the power of adaptive Fe is often overlooked; of strong vulnerability, of mercy, of hope/faith and generosity.

    ~~

    I was going say something sterile and generic, but instead I’m going to run through a psychic narrative, speaking to the interiority.

    ~~

    Some thoughts about the shadow of Directive Fe

    What to do with this power? As the pendulum swings now in our favor, and we rise out of a state of suppression.. do we rise out and cast down those who wronged us? Do we “right” the wrongs by getting even? Oh how tempting it would be to unleash punishment on the world, and to see all those who thwarted our will… be placed in the humiliation we so had to endure. (perhaps we even punish and bully our previous self, for having been weak)

    And maybe a little of that is necessary. Directive Fe is not pacifist; it exists because the world is dangerous and confrontation is necessary sometimes. It exists because there are injustices that the person and the world cannot leave unattented; that it would be irresponsible to leave unattended. Directive Fe is vengeful and that is part of its view of justice. The problem isn’t getting Directive Fe to execute justice, it’s in getting it to stop doing so.

    The disposition of Directive Fe is one that operates endlessly, and thus can endlessly find new faults to point to. It can find a new object of accusation, and a new enemy. By itself Directive Fe can exist in an eternal antagonism with all that is. And this is why some people come to a place of eternal cynicism and shrivel up like Ebenezer Scrooge. If that is what one wishes for their fate, then so be it. It’s a comforting guardedness, yet also further isolating .

    But… more likely, what is meant to happen is that enough time spent in Directive Fe will birth the realization that cynicism and aggression (while protecting and fortifying the ego) are not satisfactory or fun ways to exist in the long run. Directive Fe must have its season, must confront the people it needs to, confront the thoughts it needs to, but after that… it must integrate with adaptive Fe. Like a ghost with unfinished business, it must be put to rest properly.

    Neither side of Fe can perform optimally on its own, and taking the better parts of both adaptive/directive is what seems the most healthy to me. The integration of Fe into the psyche is ultimately a matter of both adaptive and directive harmonization. But that itself is a way bigger topic… and my post is getting so long already, so I’ll stop here.

    I wonder what you think of some of this Jay, and whether any of this touches upon your current inner explorations?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
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    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • F Attitude: Seelie

    @jay, I think your Se is not conscious yet. You show some Se signals but I don’t see long lasting Pe signals.

    I think casual hands come from Ni and they become pretty exacting at times with Fe too.

    I think if you tried to imitate the full vultology and vibe of an SeTi you would see it will be very hard. We did some experiments of this sort in Fi tower. 🙂 Trying to modulate our Te and Pi. And we can do it better than we expected, but there is a certain toll we feel. But, I mean, really do it ! You would have to show something like Green Coyote’s mannerisms for a short time. I bet on a new tarot deck of the winner’s choice 😉 that either you will not be able to do it to a satisfying degree OR you will and you will feel completely exhausted after ! Maybe even confused and…hm? Manic? I guess inferior Se activated for a while would go in that direction, not sure. Anyway, very tired and there might be some short time effects – when I did Ni, I was scared during the experience and I became nostalgically patriotic shortly after. :))

    Anyway what I mean is if Se was fully conscious, intense modulation of it would not be extremely difficult or tiring. You wouldn’t even need to purposefully channel it and there would be times when people could not tell for sure which function rules, you know?

    @Auburn I totally agree with your post and I am glad you are supervising us more closely in our function development experience. 🙂 Now sit and listen to some awesome stories about the underworld, dead people getting out of their graves, zombie apocalypse and stuff !!! :)))

    On a more serious note, I do think Fe integration does take adaptive and directive Fe harmonization. And Fi integration also takes seelie – unseelie Fi harmonization. And my guess is there are also some deeper connections between functions, that we don’t yet completely understand, so when one is developing, it might pull out another one – completely or just partly. I don’t know if these are general patterns or if the connections develop different in every person. But some of their ground is shared. And I have to say my unseelie Fi seems somehow connected to Ni. So, in Jay’s case, there might also be a similar directive Fe-Se connection. And while developing Fi I also thought I am partly developing Ni ! I think it’s because they have some sort of dark secret passage between them. Where they meet and plan how to murder my Se, take over and make me become a gypsy tarot reader conspiracy theorist. :)) And something similar might be what is happening with Jay’s Fe and Se too..? And indeed I think it would be safer to first fully integrate Fe and then integrate Se.

    I also don’t see full integration of all functions as the solution for everyone in any situation, because there are all sorts of consequences of making every function conscious, which are not all benefic or desirable. Just to give an example, I never thought developing Fi could have as consequence weird moments, when I become awkward, moody and kinda mean. I imagined it would make me even seelier and did not even consider the uneelie part as having any say in the whole process ! I didn’t even take the princess energy seriously and didn’t figure out the disadvantages, because from Se point of view princessy vibes are just…pretty, you know? I didn’t figure out heavier Fi can make you take some steps back from people you used to be really close to, because of a certain lack of alignment of principles or because you start to consider your personal values as more important than socializing ! To me it was just oh, how wonderful it would be to have conscious Fi, this way I could help people more with my lovely seelie feminine energy ! Which is wrong. Or rather…not completely wrong but just part of a bigger picture that involves both positive and negative aspects.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Bera.
    CourtJester
    Blocked
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Directive

    @auburn I respect your opinion. You are probably right that this is just directive Fe fighting over space in the psyche. However while you say these things that sound good referring to: Some thoughts about the shadow of Directive Fe. I know you are pulling from and relating to the shadow king energy, which you are right that is what is going on here for sure, at least now. I oscillate between king-shadow king adaptive and directive, because I try so hard to preserve the purity and goodness I see, yet I leave it to confront all that is not pure (making myself a tyrant in the process). I should say I have learned both roles. I very easily have been able to insight (well, lets not say that here).

    The thing that is missing here, is to make any progress you need to be aware of the shadow of society, the shadow of everyone around you. In matters of growth for the future, unfortunately, you cannot pull from the adaptive or seelie mindsets of people. It is a different passion, and a needed one, yes. One that is not to be messed with, protected rather, because it keeps the best parts of humanity in tact. But, what about the worst parts of humanity? The aspects of humanity that are trying to destroy what is left of that good nature. Being aware of the shadow of society and the passion there within is all we really have to work with as far as making any meaningful change. The utilizing the shadow energy is the “end justifies the means.” You need to be aware of the mob. You need to be aware of the innocent as well. To use it correctly you have to manipulate one or both and hope it works.

    “By itself Directive Fe can exist in an eternal antagonism with all that is. And this is why some people come to a place of eternal cynicism and shrivel up like Ebenezer Scrooge. If that is what one wishes for their fate, then so be it. It’s a comforting guardedness, yet also further isolating.” In many cases this may be true. It is an Alpha dig I have seen used before at Beta’s. A similar thing could be said about Alpha inaction when it is needed most, such as during the Holocaust. “I saw no smoke stacks” “I was just following orders” “That is not my problem” etc. So, it is easy to judge someone who is taking action against wrong doing as just as bad or worse as those committing it, through blood vengeance, but what is more evil? Doing nothing while those who cannot defend themselves IS more evil because by playing into the hand of those doing these acts, we are ourselves then silently approving of it.

    In any event, I agree that a balance between adaptive/directive is optimal. However, it easy to say these things when living in a cozy community far away from the gunshots you hear at night when you’re closer to Hell.

    I disagree with being compared to Albert Camus. Se is light and relaxed and Ni is heavy and relaxed. Of course he looks relaxed. He doesn’t have conscious Fe-Ti. I have heard some great observations as of late from @greencoyote because he is so good at seeing subtleties in expressions and energetics. It has made me think that Se would look like a coating of Se over the rest of the psyche because it is the most repressed. It would aid in expression and awareness only. I also think it is “force” when it is paired with Fe, so maybe we will always disagree.

    Guys let me know where I made mistakes here. I am open to learning even though I may seem a bit disagreeable. By the way, I am 60%/40% agreeable/disagreeable according to Big 5. I am only disagreeable when I’m mobilized and pushing towards a goal.

    And @auburn try to understand that this means more to some than for others, because what I failed to mention is the internal struggle -the meaning. Many of us are in a fight for our lives and liberation of our psyche from the pain of being. Sometimes in regards to mental health and the slavery of such within the person, within the system, it is “better to die on your feet than live on your knees.” I guess it comes down to a simple choice “get busy living or get busy dying.” <–directive Je

    CourtJester
    Blocked
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: lll-
    • F Attitude: Directive

    Multiple times now, not a single like on my response to a critique of me, which is typical. The people have spoken. I’ve tried to be supportive but it ends today. Good luck to you all.

    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • F Attitude: Seelie

    Jay, I just read it. I admit I didn’t sleep that much but you underestimate the amount of issues that can explode in one night.

    I actually agree about the shadow.

    The thing is though that Auburn doesn’t owe us anything. The fact he gives insight for free is already admirable. I gotta say no person/ group/ organization/theory I encountered was more helpful in my self development than CT though CT isn’t even specifically dedicated to self development. This is enough in itself and we are doing our best given the limited resources (time, money, information, etc.).

    What you mentioned about Green Coyote’s opinion about Se seems to stem from an Se lead misconception. 🙂 Of course Se shows by Pe signals like alert eyes, perk ups, bubbling momentum, body swaying and by Se signals like amped eyes, the specific Se body sways, eye head parallel motions, bodily presence etc. It’s a function like any other. Also until Pe signals appear and come up frequently at least under CT standards the function is not fully conscious. I was showing probably all Fi signals before it was conscious. But I was not showing enough J and Ji signals. I was not getting into rigid states or using meticulous hands. If you want, I can show you before and after. It really is a big difference.

    So, with all respect to Green Coyote, Se is a function like all others and rules on function development apply like in any other case. We can look for examples later…I have to run to work right now.

    Men can be such kids. 🙄

    Also Germany is full of deltas. There is a connection between quadra and place/race/people. European white people are mostly Fi-Te. I doubt it was mostly alphas who accepted the Holocaust because I don’t think there are mostly alphas there. Look at small German kids in commercials. Mostly Fi smiles. This isn’t very much of a counter argument as we don’t have the statistics yet but it’s more of a general idea.

    I think what you said might be rather applicable to seelie/ adaptive vs unseelie/directive and I am now wondering if it is more of a pattern that alphas tend to be adaptive and betas directive. It is for sure one with seelie deltas and unseelie gammas but…I don’t know about Fe.

     

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Adaptive

    Multiple times now, not a single like on my response to a critique of me, which is typical. The people have spoken. I’ve tried to be supportive but it ends today. Good luck to you all.

    Very well. The modteam and I have agreed to extend the Discord ban to a forum-wide ban as well.

    I, and many members, have tried extending our kindness to you but I see now that this is beyond our scope to help. You’ve insulted (by name) multiple members here, including me, in your youtube videos yet have a neediness for positive affirmation while you dish out such unkindness in turn. Rather than see the grace offered to you, you choose to mistreat it. And this sort of behavior is a form of ‘abuse’ of others and I have to say we’re better off without that.

    It is an Alpha dig I have seen used before at Beta’s. A similar thing could be said about Alpha inaction when it is needed most, such as during the Holocaust. “I saw no smoke stacks” “I was just following orders” “That is not my problem” etc. So, it is easy to judge someone who is taking action against wrong doing as just as bad or worse as those committing it, through blood vengeance, but what is more evil?

    I never said that about Betas. Ad hominem attacks on me being Alpha, layered atop of a general typological prejudice (comparing us to being Holocaust complicit) are examples of what I mean by behaviors we don’t need.

    Be well on your journey. I’ll respond to any followup comments you have via email.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • F Attitude: Directive

    @jay Your actions have yet to extend to my little discord server Realm Topology. When it does become active once more I hope the part of yourself that has proven to be so caring and insightful shines a blazing and lasting light.

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