[Pe II–] What is your personal discovery journey like?

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  • Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Hi guys,

    I recently wrote something to Mitchell (NeJi ll–) that, with his permission, I wanted to paraphrase and share more with the community, especially to ask for thoughts from our Pe ll– members:



    The demarcation “ll–” means that the person’s cognitive attention is in their auxiliary function. It actually means something like “Natively Pe lead, but focusing energy and ego into their Ji and its pursuits”

    But what does it mean to have Pe as lead, if one is “functionally” introverted? Well in CT, the lead function is defined as an energetic — and Pe is “explorer.” The function Ji is compass. So one can think of the PeJi ll– type as being a natively informationally explorational type, who is channeling their focus into pursuits of personal identity.

    What you describe in your video — about having been a wanderer across many communities and systems, drifting in a sea of information and trying to find something that describes who you are — is precisely the interplay of the Pe-lead with Ji development.

    The Ji-lead, in CT, does not swim around a sea of information and systems to try to explain themselves, but instead sits still and comes to an inner decision about what they are, and then often stays self-sufficiently satisfied with that definition. This is the wholly subject-oriented (I) nature of the Ji-lead. Instead, it seems you’re ultimately looking for some externality, some out-there-ness that can verify your subjective sense in a never-ending quest, and this itself is extroverted priority, and extroverted information gathering (Pe).



    In other words, it appears to me that between the Ji-lead and the Pe ll– type, it is the Pe ll– type that is more prone to be in a sort of searching-mode for something, a system or insight, that might help them make sense of themselves and clarify their fundamental nature.

    Oppositely, there is a sense in which Ji-leads also investigate but soon just come to “know who they are” in a rather self-sufficient way and thus do not swim or hop across systems, aiming to find the “best” description of themselves. There is a level of equanimity, if I can use that term, in the Ji lead with ‘sitting’ in their self-understandings, even with leaving it inarticulated or unmodeled.

    Something similar was said in the NeFi chapter, and while it’s specifically detailing an indecisive Ne-lead reality, this relates a bit more generally to Pe ll–.

    “…the NeFi who has not nurtured an understanding of human logistics and customs may turn to interests that do not center around human interaction; making them appear highly introverted in the common sense of the word. Yet this attitude is quite different than what exists in the FiNe. The NeFi’s psychology will express a heavier indecisiveness in many topics, a greater tolerance for stimuli (of an [associative] sort), and a markedly less conclusive Fi palate. The FiNe will carry a far more definitive crystallization in their framework, which the NeFi might find suffocating and restrictive. It is the NeFi’s very receptivity to new information (as a Pe lead type) that causes a constant evolution of values as well as a feeling of restriction when pivoted against a definitive paradigm. The NeFi introvert may find herself searching for her own deepest essence (Fi), but struggle with personal skepticism in deciding who they are as they reimagine themselves often. The NeFi introvert may dabble in many mystical or psychological systems of categorization, finding and keeping the tidbits that resonate with them and making from this a collage of an identity or philosophy.”

    The experience with Se ll– types would be a bit less ‘hoppy’ once something ‘lands’ as a solid frame of reference. Yet the priority of Pe over Ji would make it so the Se ll– explorer type is nonetheless driven to venture into the world for answers about who they are, rather than sit with those found just within. The irony here may be that Pe ll– types are more obsessed with their identity than Ji’s, not because they hold it more firmly, but because it’s an ongoing question. Oppositely, Ji types hold to identity more firmly, but also doubt it less. The two dynamics go hand in hand. Questioning leads to pursuits. Answers lead to cessation of pursuit.

    This appears to be one (but not the only) aspect of the Pe ll– development level that I’ve seen so far. However, I guess I wanted to ask a few questions to our Pe ll– members, to see if this is really true?

    1) What parts of the above hold true for you? Which parts don’t apply?

    2) How do you feel about conceptualizing who you are wholly on your own terms, without any externality?

    3) Have you searched through a lot of identity systems / are you constantly engaging in systems that can aide in exploring yourself?

    4) When you come to an answer, how long do you stay with it? And are there answers you’ve retained indefinitely? Things you’re wholly certain about? Things are that still open questions?

     

    Thanks so much!

    • This topic was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by Auburn.
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    Wolf00
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    1) I do relate to exploring different systems and theories in order to reach a higher understanding of my identity. I’ve been doing this for the last 2 years while exploring typology and some of Jung’s work. I am constantly looking for information that fits more with my identity than what I’ve found in the past – so that fits as well. I’ve always been a curious guy, ever since I was a child; I was looking to explore different types of information from different subjects like: biology, astronomy, physics, psychology etc. I was what you can call a “nerd” in school and high school, but I don’t think I fit the classic image of being a nerd necessarily. You can say I’m a bit (or more) eccentric if you get to know me a bit.

    2) I think that I can conceptualize who I am based on my terms, but I can’t provide a high enough resolution view without any externality. I believe this is partly due to the psyche’s not so accurate ability of objective self analysis + dominance of cognitive extroversion (even though I’ve said in the past that I relate more to the prioritization of the subjective side, but I haven’t thought that much about it till reading your post lol).

    3) I do believe that I need a check from without to be sure, but I can be content with my self perception. External information is valuable for a more precise self view and I’ve stated the reason for this in the response for the second question.

    4) I don’t drift that much among systems. It’s more like I remain open to something better, but I focus a lot on one preferred system at a time – I’m doing it with vultology at the moment.

    5) I can very easily change my idea and view on something, depending on the level of sureness I have with the said thing. I have some sort of inner “sureness continuum meter” with which I determine how much I am sure of something and depending on the degree of how sure I am of one thing, I can change my view on it either easier or with more inner friction.

    Elsie
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    ive arrived from the nethersphere

    “The experience with Se ll– types would be a bit less ‘hoppy’ once something ‘lands’ as a solid frame of reference. Yet the priority of Pe over Ji would make it so the Se ll– explorer type is nonetheless driven to venture into the world for answers about who they are, rather than sit with those found just within. The irony here may be that Pe ll– types are more obsessed with their identity than Ji’s, not because they hold it more firmly, but because it’s an ongoing question. Oppositely, Ji types hold to identity more firmly, but also doubt it less. The two dynamics go hand in hand. Questioning leads to pursuits. Answers lead to cessation of pursuit.”

    its the least on my mind because i dont doubt it. i suppose its “all sorted”. its not an “ongoing question”, i am what i am, including growth as a human being, and always have been the same stamp-out.

    the things in the external world that i vibe-with…colours, textures, collections of art, archetypes, music videos, themes…are things that i claim are “like me”. ive “seen it before”. it helps me express-stuff. i show what i see.

    im not searching for anything, its already there, storms of the subconscious (u can argue it was originally adopted from somewhere outside but i wont)..

    i love to match things tho. but, i already know what i am. case-closed…it’s not ever been “who am i?”. not looking out and going “is this me?” but “HEY THAT MATCHES!”…i’ll eat that. very-loudly. especially if its neon-green.
    i have ideas about who you/people are too and they hit the spot most of the time. plz god surprise me.

    there is a consensus in most cases.
    ppl including myself do exist in reality and they are things. whether they identify correctly is another matter.
    i dont think ppl can lie or fake it. one may try but they are still what they are, innate and programmed. if they like faking, thats part of them, too, but no one hiding anything, EVEN BEHIND TI/FE FACE

    im a great actor. they say actors have something inside of them that they bring out. i think its something like that. i like to express different things, and those are achievable, less-acheiveable or discordant inwardly and outwardly.
    but they are in a set range, i see, (re: do you external etc) and that’s who i am, too. like a prism, its one thing. i see the same in others. they are different shapes.

    “3) Do you feel that you may need to check from the outside to know if your self-perception is true? Or do you feel that it’s fine not to double-check from the outside but do it mainly within?”

    im usually aware of myself and how i come off. i welcome anyone to bump into me and i’ll bump-back and see whats-up. usually theyre being fussy/wrong about something lol.

    i cant say i double-check inward, either. the very idea seems ludicrous to me. some Ji-types tell me what they are looking for? solid-gold?

    “4) Have you searched through a lot of identity systems / are you constantly engaging in systems that can aide in exploring yourself?”

    regarding typology systems…this is not for identity purposes for me…i dont think ive ever searched for that…im sure ppl can do that if they want tho…
    it is for finding/making definitions of “world” and “things”, categorization of objects..substances.
    there’s only so much one can describe without using vague words/metaphors. so a framework is neccessary…like a check-box (i love typology btw).
    its a great referencing system when interacting with people too. and good talking-points. CT isn’t complete enough for me yet to make anything of it, but suitable-enough. will tie-up some ends blind.

    “5) When you come to an answer, how long do you stay with it? And are there answers you’ve retained indefinitely? Things you’re wholly certain about? Things are that still open questions?”

    for identity…explained above…
    for everything else…
    once i got something sorted that’s it, unless someone makes me change my mind, and they better have something.
    there’s a good chance ive forgotten a lot of those decided-things, too, but im just not prone to being uncertain about it. “i know because…”, “it is,” or “i dont/cant know”. im fine leaving it at that, too.

    over-and-out

    TBerg
    Participant
    • Type: NiFe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Directive

    As a NiFe, I have to say that I am less solid in my identity than some SeFis and seem to long for another to give me an identity to power me through my life, make me comfortable, and motivate me towards greater heights.  It is a central focus in my life to have someone or something to tell me what they want me to do and motivate me to do it.  Once I settle into something, though, I can keep going for a long time until it totally envelops my day.

    I love when someone tells me how what I do every day means to them and praises my efforts, because I have disdain for efforts merely to provide material satisfaction.  I long to make work into a spiritual journey of edification and sacrifice.  I am easily influenced by those who put thought into what my efforts mean to them.  I hate when that reality is obscured by mundane aspects of life.  I do not like being close to the earth, but I long to be catapulted up towards heaven.

     

    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities and the forces of darkness that push us down towards condemnation.  I long to be lifted out of the mundane that confuses with its boring enchantments that befuddle and make us lose interest.

    I can thus settle into patterns that push me further into the ground and do not offer the meat of spiritual satisfaction.  I want to labor every day for something beyond the ditch of the mundane but do it in sacrifice for ascension into the delights of the heavens.

    Modern life really doesn’t offer much in that way.  Thus I depend upon the communion with another soul to elevate my condition, as our Savior elevates.  I long for that soul to connect with me again and again in the heavens, as lightning travels through the heavens.  But it doesn’t end in the heavens.  I long for lightning to strike me on earth as well, and electrify everything I do.

    Vive
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    1) What parts of the above hold true for you? Which parts don’t apply?

    I think that the description is apt. Despite knowing that there are parts of me that are crystallized, or at least stay as such over very long stretches of time, I keep perceiving a sense of inconsistency in myself. I mostly notice what’s different: the changes and developments are what is most salient to me. There is also a certain inner disquietude, a restlessness, that drives me to keep searching for different explanations and new ways to define myself.

    2) How do you feel about conceptualizing who you are wholly on your own terms, without any externality?

    Why would I forego something useful like that. Ideally I would like my self-image to align as much as possible with reality, why would I ignore the external. Both internal conceptualization and external comparison and exploration are important to achieve this. I have no inherent opposition towards internally defining who I am, on my own terms, but my terms will shift and the vocabulary will change. My mind will shift in perspective. This is because of external influence and comparison, that I think no one can really avoid, but I feel I am especially susceptible.

    3) Do you feel that you may need to check from the outside to know if your self-perception is true? Or do you feel that it’s fine not to double-check from the outside but do it mainly within?

    Yes to the former, no to the latter. Like I noted the answer to the previous question, I want my self perception to be aligned with reality. This means it’s not just my own subjective experience that is essential, but also that of others who know me in different capacities.

    4) Have you searched through a lot of identity systems / are you constantly engaging in systems that can aide in exploring yourself?

    Absolutely.

    5) When you come to an answer, how long do you stay with it? And are there answers you’ve retained indefinitely? Things you’re wholly certain about? Things are that still open questions?

    I’ve realized that just searching and searching won’t do a person any good. If you want to get good at a skill, you need to be able to properly focus your attention on it. This can’t be done if you get swept away by enthusiasm or new curiosities leading you to do other things. Over time, I learned to really focus my attention on only a few things, so I can do them well and efficiently and also, so I can stay sane. I’m certain about focusing a lot of my time on studying Japanese and doing that until I reach a native-like level of ability. I also know I will forever retain an interest in psychology and I am most definitely going to be a psychologist once I finish my Master’s in Clinical Neuropsychology.

    I hold on to these things for mostly practical reasons and the more time I invest into something the more the idea of sunk-costs will motivate you to keep working even if you don’t feel like it. My self-perspective remains very fluid and I will still get interested in many things. Focusing my attention and efforts requires a certain, minimal, but still present, resistance against my natural tendency to shift my focus and dip my toes in many proverbial pools. However, even within a very small range of numbers, there’s still an infinity of numerical possibilities. I think Ne can truly shine when it applies it quickly branching mental patterns to different subfields within a field, connecting them in unforeseen ways. This way there’s still fluidity, but one with an effectiveness that is far greater.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by Vive.
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    What parts of the above hold true for you? Which parts don’t apply?
    Pretty much all of this is relatable to some extant or another. 

    2) How do you feel about conceptualizing who you are wholly on your own terms, without any externality?

    I have a hard time believing it’s possible for anyone to conceptualize themselves without externality. We do not exist alone in a vacuum. A good portion of identity, imo, is one’s relationship to the wider world. If I were to imagine myself in an empty universe, I don’t think I could come to any sort of conceptualization of my identity. Incidentally, this is why I tend towards a pandeistic understanding of the universe. The universe could not understand itself while entirely contained within itself. Externality was necessary and hence the world as we know it.

    This is not to say that I don’t feel an internal sense of identity, only that I believe it formed in response to the external.

    3) Do you feel that you may need to check from the outside to know if your self-perception is true? Or do you feel that it’s fine not to double-check from the outside but do it mainly within?

    There was a time when I felt more confident in my self-perception, but only because I didn’t know any better. It was eye-opening to discover that how I perceive myself is not always in line with how others perceive me. I put much effort into attempting to reconcile the internal and external.

    4) Have you searched through a lot of identity systems / are you constantly engaging in systems that can aide in exploring yourself?

    Indeed! Sometimes I am ashamed to admit how preoccupied I am with this. I wish I could just “be.” I aspire to just “be.” Someday, perhaps. In the mean time, I love and hate all the labels I seek. I hate to be boxed in, and I hate to be lost in the crowd. 

    5) When you come to an answer, how long do you stay with it? And are there answers you’ve retained indefinitely? Things you’re wholly certain about? Things are that still open questions?

    How long do I stay with an answer? Not very. I have a peculiar habit of attempting to build a past off of new interests in order to deflect from my fickleness. I discover something new. “OMG this is me! This has always been me! how did I not see it before??” And I proceed to scan my past for evidence, foreshadowing, anything I can use to prove to myself and to skeptical family that this new thing has been woven into my soul since birth. A couple of months later, I’ve moved on. 

    There are precious few answers that have remained constant. I have a sense that these should be enough, but they just aren’t. I still feel under-actualized. 

    I fantasize about being chosen for a quest. If only someone would come along and hand me my purpose and identity. It’s so tiresome searching for it on my own. << if that isn’t a mighty declaration of externality 😅

    Shapeshifter2790
    Participant
    • Type:
    • Development:
    • Attitude:

    1) What parts of the above hold true for you? Which parts don’t apply?

    I have actually mentioned what i call “PeFi introverted hiding” when given the statement “ohhh all Exxx types are extroverted.” My answer was that PeFi in comparison to FiPe is more likely to bouts of “hiding” in comfort because of issues coming from externa that shake their view of themselves or their worldview. When given the choice as you mentioned I have noticed that FiPe is can be prone to doing this but is less likely to because they have a stronger sense of the “compass” they hold.

    but to address your question about Pe indecisiveness yes this actually does happen often with me. In my search for things i enjoy i often take a very “I don’t know” “it can be this way or this way” approach since im aware of the constant hiding and changing within myself. I wouldn’t know if im actively searching as it seems my compass has been slightly set no matter what Pe throws at it, but i did have this issue a while back.

    2) How do you feel about conceptualizing who you are wholly on your own terms, without any externality?

    That is actually how i have depended on myself for the longest time until this year when i decided to listen to other’s compliments. I used to never let myself listen to compliments because i felt it actually skewed my worldview. If you are told you are smart, you have to take into account that that is someone else’s perception of you. They can be projecting an insecure image onto you and using you as the pedestal. They could genuinely think you are smart when you haven’t given them the chance to see other sides of your personality. I never really heavily tried to rely on external gratification as a result (but of course im human so sometimes its unavoidable). So when questioned how i describe myself i often say a person who is interacting with her environment and trying to check what she sees of herself and others in the situation.

    3) Do you feel that you may need to check from the outside to know if your self-perception is true? Or do you feel that it’s fine not to double-check from the outside but do it mainly within?

    As a human, sadly, i still have bouts of times when i will think of myself too highly. (which is something I constantly try to avoid) This is actually how i double check

    do action
    somehow get complimented for it
    check if that makes sense inside yourself

    or the alternative

    state i think i am this way through self reflection
    get feedback
    and go back to method one to see
    well… doesn’t this seem like everyone? Anyways i find it actually more important to check with myself even though external information is great.

    4) Have you searched through a lot of identity systems / are you constantly engaging in systems that can aide in exploring yourself?

    If im being completely honest, i didn’t intend to search so deeply into identity systems such as this one. It kinda fell into my lap and i got interested in it as a hobby. Its quite interesting to see what people think of you even if its a… heavily biased perception (sin.e everything is biased. although this one is heavily). The reason why I was pulled into typology was actually because it served as a medium to listen to other people about their answers to certain questions and to answer their questions. It wasn’t until last month that i actually started seeing how my identity was really forming based on the constant opinions on how i project myself to other people.

    5) When you come to an answer, how long do you stay with it? And are there answers you’ve retained indefinitely? Things you’re wholly certain about? Things are that still open questions?

    I stay with it until someone can effectively prove me wrong (which is not often since i do approach it from different angles). No im never wholly certain about anything, to do that is suicide for me. one of my biggest fears is ignorance (which i contain) but the more i can be open and receptive to to different approaches (considering i didn’t prove them wrong) the more likely i am healthy and better at communicating to people around me.

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