P-oscillation & "Self-work"

[Hrafn]

@auburn I wanted to reply to this, which I saw in that endless Harry Potter thread:

First I should say I don’t put self-work on a pedestal. To me, being l— is just fine. I’m also not a moralist.
So I don’t feel the need to be make qualitative statements like “everyone does self work.” No.. I think that’s a J function thing. And that’s not me casting shade on P functions. It’s inherent in the J functions to be dissatisfied with “how things are” and to aim to change them – including oneself or others. The nature of the P functions is observation, not judgment. You don’t need self-work if you’re not judgmental.
So more P heavy philosophies may be more “live and let live” focused, more accepting of oneself as they are, perhaps hedonistic or just free and hippy. So again, I don’t see how one can make the case that all types equally seek self improvement, if not all types have that sort of arduous, overcome-pain-and-trials philosophy.
All things being equal, an Fe-lead will be more driven to that sort of ethical ‘work’ than an NeTi. Now I say “all things being equal” because if the NeTi has had a turbulent experience, or high levels of neuroticism/depression/anxiety/etc, then self-work becomes mandatory just for them to have a functional existence.
But I don’t see the need to equalize an NeTi l–l and an FeNi l— in terms of “moral effort.” And I don’t think that makes the NeTi a worse person, or the FeNi a better person. There are different things to fret about in life, and integrity/dignity/growth is just one of many obsessions to have — as is collecting all Smash Bros. Amiibo trophies.
I can’t reply to the rest as it’s just too much! So that’s as much as I can say for now.

 
Here's the issue I have with this: it seems like the Judgment oscillation addresses unpleasant things in a very direct manner, whether through resolution or action. So, yes, when it comes to addressing personal shortcomings, the J-oscillation will be actually doing the "work" of dealing with them. But even here, it's worth pointing out that addressing personal issues requires self-awareness, which requires observation--a subordinate use of the P-functions.
However, I don't see "self-work" as simply a series of deliberate resolutions & actions. I see it as more like getting into rhythmic interplay with the world...knowing when Judgment is appropriate and when it's better just to "live & let live."
Most importantly, there are lots of personal shortcomings, psychological unpleasantries, physical pain, etc., that can only addressed indirectly, rather than through explicit means. If I notice that I'm feeling very tense inside my body, I cannot simply resolve to stop being tense. That would probably engage a Judgment function and make me more rigid. The best I can do is to simply to be nonjudgmental and accept the tension for what it is. Actually, pretty much all the basic ideas behind mindfulness seem to involve engaging perception while relaxing the Judgment oscillation.
In the past I've had a few periods in my life that involved obsessive, circular thinking--I think these were times when my J-oscillation was sort of short-circuiting. Usually, the way out of this wasn't trying to force it to stop; it was simply noticing it and accepting it.
Along these lines, I also think that forbearance largely comes from Perception--for me, forbearance doesn't mean deciding against an action so much as it involves recognizing that I'm not compelled to take that action.
I'm not trying to overstate the role of the perception oscillation--on its own it's kinda lazy and probably couldn't get very far. Ironically, I'm actually not always all that live-and-let-live if that means live-and-let-living one's way through a moral crisis rather than having a backbone. It's more just a matter of being able to feel out when it makes sense to resolve into Judgment, and when to relax into perception....nobody can be rigid all the time.
 

[Bera]

@umbilicalsphere - what do you think about this as an NeTi who does not have conscious Fe ? 🙂
Because in my opinion you have done a lot of self work and this is obvious, you wouldn't even have to prove it, that's why I'm summoning you and not talking about myself.
Maybe you've had some issues to overcome but I don't think this should be that relevant, since there are also a lot of people who have major problems and who don't do any self work !
Also, I don't know when your Ti got developed, maybe you have an idea about that? Because it might be useful to see if there is any connection between self work and Ti development. (especially since your self work can be connected to Ti themes)
And another thing, maybe we understand self work in different ways. In my opinion, meditating 2 hours / day is self work.
And since I'm not sure Umbi will respond, 🙂 since I didn't see him being very active on the forum, I will also say that maybe perception can also be improved and that this is also a type of self work. Seeing clearly takes effort too or at least that's what I think.

[Faeruss]

@Hrafn Thank you for this. Yeah, I think Auburn has a specific kind of self-work in mind when he talk about this, and it is "work" indeed. It is structured, and involves the delineation of ideals (Ji) and their effective pursuit (Je), and is overall rather Western in flavour. There is indeed a type of self-development, though perhaps not self-work, that I would associate with the perception axes, of the type you describe, more closely seen in some Eastern schools of thought, like Buddhism and Vedanta, as well as Taosim.
Probably the most universal and appropriate definition of what self-work and self-development is is to say it is that which you least want to do, but know you should. For a Judgement-axis heavy person, this "work" could lie in learning to let go, to flow, to perceive, for instance.
Self-work implies having an ideal to work towards, and in some schools of thought the ideal is to have no ideal, to be free and pure of striving. Of course, this gets one into horrible paradoxes, like desiring to be free of desire. And this would be the final obstacle to entering the gateless gate, as it were. It seems to be, however, a nonsensical and paradoxical tool that must be burnt and discarded once it has fulfilled its role of getting one to the very door. The image of God is the final obstacle. Or how the Zen master would say, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him".

[Juan E. Sandoval]

I like this. I think @faeruss captured more of my sentiment in this. But also something else -- "whose to say what is better?" -- for example, a certain kind of Je-lead (Tony Robbins) may see it as self-work and self-growth to rise up to challenges, have unlimited power, and make a success of your life. Another certain Je-lead may find they're a workaholic and their growth path revolves around relaxing their rigidity; indeed, engaging the P axis. They may go to yoga & meditation after work every day.
If "self-work" means working on aspects that are "what we least want to do" / our weaknesses.. presumably to achieve some balance, then I would retract my original statement and say that all types can equally do this.
If "self-work" means attaining a better state of acceptance and equanimity, then often the Ekhart Tolle route (P-lead) is idealized, and J-ness is opposite to that.
If "self-work" means stop being lazy, adopt a responsibility, make an impact, do something with your life -- then the Je route is idealized.
This is why I started the post saying I'm not a moralist, as I see it from a relativistic light. The idea of "self improvement" is vague and one can say many opposed paths are routes of improvement, depending on what view is held as central. All I can say for sure is that humans 'are'. They do things. 🙂 Wonderful, fascinating and horrible things.
p.s. - There's also the l--- angle to this which is not talked about enough. To me there's a beauty in the l--- development, a kind of "true to the original self" aspect to it. I can easily see someone idealizing the l--- state as a kind of "be you" mode, which can be self-improvement if one is trying to undo the influences of culture or forced over-modulations.
But I'm curious to hear what others have to say, @umbilicalsphere too yes, if he shows up.

[Hrafn]

Probably the most universal and appropriate definition of what self-work and self-development is is to say it is that which you least want to do, but know you should. For a Judgement-axis heavy person, this “work” could lie in learning to let go, to flow, to perceive, for instance.
 
If “self-work” means working on aspects that are “what we least want to do” / our weaknesses.. presumably to achieve some balance, then I would retract my original statement and say that all types can equally do this.
If “self-work” means attaining a better state of acceptance and equanimity, then often the Ekhart Tolle route (P-lead) is idealized, and J-ness is opposite to that.
If “self-work” means stop being lazy, adopt a responsibility, make an impact, do something with your life — then the Je route is idealized.

Well-clarified--I agree with all this.

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