Jordan Peterson & Controversies

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  • Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Cedar what do you mean ? What do you ask for, because I’m not sure I understand.

    Do you mean Jordan Peterson should be taken out of the database, the FeNi section and not referenced anymore as an example of his type/development level? He is there just as an example of FeNi I-II…not because CT supports all his ideas.

    I mean…Charles Manson is a sample and we don’t support his ideas. 🙂 He is also an example of a certain type and development level.

    Or do you think a specific reference to Jordan Peterson that suggests his ideas influenced the CT theory should be addressed?

    He was mentioned in a new topic but from what I saw, just to exemplify Ti in arguments. Do you mean that thread?

    I’ll come back, I didn’t manage to read the links you posted yet, as I was very caught up at work. I just wanted to point out he is just referenced as a sample of his type anyway. Unless you mean something different and then we’d need to see what exactly of his theory is seen as relevant to CT theory.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Bera.
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    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    I think Cedar is talking about weather or not JP words should be added to CT’s model base on the connections to his face. If I’m wrong in this might manner Cedar then this can counts as greater deduction to what you exactly mean.

    I had no idea Charles Manson was in the DB. I just watched someone act him out on the series of Mindhunter. It was amazing. If Charles Manson had ideas that were compatible to CT’s model it would likely give CT a much appreciated boost in structural validity, yet would likely be shot down by those who greatly empathize representational validity.

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    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @cedar

    Have you seen his lectures? Forget his interviews, they are irrelevant. His lectures is where the meat of his ideas are and they are freely available on youtube. If you want to do proper research on JP, then you might also read his book “12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos.” It is available for just 13 dollar on amazon.

    Why does it matter AT ALL that there is some media drama around his character? I don’t think that CT should just sheepishly follow the media’s lead just because, sacrificing intellectual integrity in the process. Integrity is not worth sacrificing, especially not for something as fickle as public image.

    Is it because you see him as political, perhaps?

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    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @bera here’s an example of how JP is a part of the foundation of CT https://cognitivetype.com/who-is-jordan-peterson-and-why-does-it-matter/ This is what I am referring to, not him in the database. Even just looking at the title of the article should help clear up what my concern is. Thank you for asking for clarification.


    @ivory
    Regardless of my type or because of it…I don’t think it matters…I remain mentally open to what someone is saying until I have enough data to process my stance on the validity of the information, I have consumed more than 20 hours of him at this point (partial read of his book, various interviews, debates, and lectures) and it is impossible to make me see him differently. There are overlying behaviors that are consistent throughout his work such as; anger, privilege, gaslighting, and other examples of not being emotionally well (I do not state these to me mean, but to explain what many see in him). I gave him a true chance, that’s all that can be asked.

    This interview was the last data point necessary to ensure my pattern of behavior for Peterson was accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLrV1G1ENlA

    Finding pearls of information shouldn’t need so much effort to sift through the noise. Good sources reduce the noise and increase the pearls. I don’t want to further elaborate because as I cannot be swayed, I respect you cannot either. If he brings value to you and your life, then by all means take those lessons and enrich yourself.

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @cedar

    If it is impossible to make you see him differently, why should anyone try and persuade you? It is very confusing because you say that you remain open, just not to how you see him… At this point, I say we agree to disagree and move on, because this topic appears to become increasingly futile. Your accusations of him gaslighting and all that… I don’t buy it and quite frankly, I think it is a ridiculous accusation that you did not, and cannot, substantiate.

    JP was used as an example in CT. I don’t think there is much to protest but, just as you have your opinion on him (that won’t change, as you say), I have a different one on him, and Auburn has his.

    Yet, I am still left wondering…. why does it MATTER that there is controversy? Conflict is inherent to anything we do, to anything we ARE. A question left unanswered…

    I will repeat my point: media drama is not worth compromising one’s integrity for.

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    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @ivory I’m not referring to the media drama, I’m referring to JP as a person. Perhaps I’m not clearly communicating. My mind was open for over 20 hours to him, over the course of a month. It isn’t wise to remain infinitely open learning about someone/something that has a clear and consistent pattern that isn’t based in current respected science. It’s illogical. And one can’t refute all research as liberally biased if it is reproducible.

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @cedar

    Sorry that doesn’t hold up. You say that he commits gaslighting. That is a serious accusation but you haven’t provided proof. Can you show us when and where this happened?

    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @auburn you liked Ivory’s post refuting what I had said. It is a reasonable assumption that you agree with JP. Am I right?

    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Gaslighting involves:

    Discrediting
    Using a mask of confidence, assertiveness, and/or fake compassion to make you believe that you “have it all wrong.”
    Changing the subject; divert the topic by asking another question, or making a statement usually directed at your thoughts
    Minimizing
    Denial and avoidance
    Twisting and reframing

    He does this in every interview I have seen. I do not throw words around with out plenty of thought, understanding of consequences, and back-up sources. I do not find it controversial to say he gaslights in interviews, it’s his standard.

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @cedar

    Please show us. This is a serious accusation. I know what entails gaslighting. Exactly when and where did this happen?

    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Why is this a serious accusation? Is Peterson basing his self-worth on what I’m writing on a forum? Are we part of a legal proceeding in which I’m a character witness? I’m not trying to be rude, but put this in actual context. Someone who admires someone will not always see their flaws. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    Again, I would like to circle around to what does he have that more respected experts don’t? He doesn’t conduct research. His persona is divisive. What does this have to do with the mission of CT?

    Ivory
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @cedar

    Gaslighting is a serious accusation and if he commit this act, I think we all deserve to know. Your distaste of his name on this forum is centered on his character. You said this yourself. If someone has a strong tendency to gaslight, then this will be a SERIOUS character flaw. If Peterson truly did this, and as often as you say he did, then this forum ought to know. Auburn especially, ought to know.

    Please come forward with the evidence.

    I will be harsh here and say that, if you cannot actually show us evidence where Peterson is gaslighting people, then I will come to the conclusion that you, Cedar, will accuse someone of an incredibly heinous and despicable act based on no evidence. I don’t take accusations of this sort, accusations to ANYONE’s address, lightly. This is no joke. Please be earnest.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Ivory.
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    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I just want to throw in some thoughts about whether the controversy around Jordan Peterson matters. Does it matter in terms of whether some particular thing he says is true? No, of course not. Does it matter in terms of deciding whether or not to present CT as having a connection to Jordan Peterson? Yes, potentially. I imagine Auburn would hesitate before writing an article connecting the ideas of CT to the ideas of Hitler, even if the connection were perfectly legitimate, because he would recognize that people coming to the website would be turned off by this connection. Please note that I am not equating Jordan Peterson to Hitler. I’m simply using Hitler as a tool to demonstrate that a person’s public image does matter when you are deciding whether or not to connect your work to theirs if you have a goal of drawing more people to your work, which I believe CT does.

    I am not stating on opinion on whether or not I think Auburn should keep or remove the article about Jordan Peterson, but I did just want to note that his public image is worth considering, and it is indeed the case that he is a very divisive figure.

    Cedar
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    And so many more. He does it throughout the entirety of his interactions. Honestly, every interview and debate I have seen he has deployed the tactics of gaslighting.

    Healthy debate looks very different and I am by no means great at it. Look to Ezra Klein’s interviews with people he is in disagreement with to see a decent example.

    Real life calls. Must go for now.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Cedar.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @Cedar

    If you think I care enough about that argument to send goonies to chase you down and argue with you – you really don’t know me. Interpersonal grudges don’t interest me, unless someone is noticeably hurting someone I love or is standing between me and my goals.  Please leave me out of this.

    I am only willing to invest emotion and passion into things that matter.  I would not ask my husband to stoop so low as to give importance to your subjective emotions about a character who you invented and called “Animal.”  On the contrary, I’m flattered by the attention.

    Please take his posts for what they are, and do not read motives into them.

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