How to develop to IIII?

Home Forums Model 1 Discussions How to develop to IIII?

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #14488
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @courtjester

    Anyone have any ideas on how to bring to conscious an unconscious function in the ego. Naturally, the goal is for us all to be IIII, right?

    The search for the answer to those two questions has become increasingly important to me. Having very recently gone through my own transformative, molting experience, I have been attempting to distill the essential elements from that, such that what remains is a universal process anyone could potentially follow to bring an unconscious function "to light".
    I will post a few of the core ideas from the document in progress, so I apologize if these points are currently too vague to be of use:

    • Assumption: You cannot gain the benefits and full consciousness of a function without creating an independent space in which it can collaborate as an equal member of the function 'family' (Father, Mother, Child, Senescent). These four familial categories correspond to Je, Ji, Pe, and Pi respectively.
    • The 4 Quadrants that must be overcome for a function that is currently "locked":
      1) Acknowledging the Function's current Inadequacy/Malevolence in your Self
      2) Understanding the Function's role within one's Society
      3) Understanding the Function's role within one's Nature
      4) Giving oneself Forgiveness/Acceptance for use and value of the Function (familial integration)

    In contemplating why there should be resistance to function development at all I was forced to the realization that function consciousness does not just come with new abilities, it comes with new responsibilities inevitably and as well.
    I'll attempt a rough breakdown of that here:

    • Je = Responsibility for the World (for Te this means primarily mechanical responsibility; for Fe this means primarily emotional responsibility [accomplishing the same objective from different angles, which is a principle that applies to all 4 energetic function pairs])
    • Ji = Responsibility for the Individual
    • Pi = Responsibility for Incorporating the Past into the Present
    • Pe = Responsibility for Incorporating the Present into the Future

    Each of these functions inherently comes with the abilities necessary to manage their respective responsibilities; as far as I can tell, this concomitant duality of the personal and the social that I perceive within the process of function consciousness is inherent to the design of the human species, and makes perfect sense for hyper-social primates such as ourselves.
    It is my belief that functions very much share "relationships" to each other, with the T/F and S/N functions' inherent, umbilical attachment to its polar counterpart appearing most obviously. For example, if one brings Fe to light, beware the hurt and anger an already conscious Ti may feel at such a forceful intrusion into its domain, and be certain that until the two are reconciled there will be "problems" that arise when operating along their shared domain: the J-axis.
    Addendum: Right in line with this idea of responsibility is the idea that if one is not ready for the forms of responsibility that come with a specific function's consciousness, the results can and will be disastrous if one attempts to forcibly bring that function to light. If close enough attention is being paid, I believe one can observe that the psyche is almost always sending internal messages about which functions it is preparing for an unearthing, and which yet require more preparation/foundation-laying and processing before they can take that journey into the light.

    #14491
    Discord
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    Rondo, Thank you so much for this explanation. Also, thank you for the warning to not try to force a function into the light. Anytime, I work on pushing my Fe forward, I have really bad consequences. Conversely, Se really seems to be leaching its way out in a lot of ways. I've been "giving it what it wants" and trying to learn to trust it. I think this is a result of the new growth that must occur for me in the present and into the future through the loss I've incurred over the last six months. I guess, we will see 🙂

    #14499
    Faeruss
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    Well said @Rondo. I would add that there is no gain without a sacrifice. Some parts of  you must die for the others to be born. And the parts of you that die might not be so happy about the whole idea.

    #14502
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Rondo - your observations are very useful !
    I realized that developing Fi on purpose was not completely without bad consequences and my attempts to develop Ni are a complete disaster.
    The expenses are huge. With Fi - Responsibility for the Individual means I might have to quit and look for a job better aligned with my values. I am in the process of implementing some changes at work and after finishing them, I will have to consider this.
    This is still manageable, I suppose.
    But Ni development seems harder to manage - Responsibility for Incorporating the Past into the Present surely includes.. thinking about the past :)), which I rarely do...and I don't really know how to do it correctly, without getting stuck.
    But what if there is a blockage somewhere between my roots and my branches? Or an entanglement in the strings of life, somewhere far, far away from my present self ? I don't really know what was before, because my focus is not there at all. 🙂
    I can see a great focus on the past in my best friend. Specifically past lives (which might be wrong but at least it shows a preoccupation with the subject) and...bonds/knots that were tied between us (our spirits/higher selves) and others a long, long time ago. To me this sounds strange. What knots? Everything is flowing, how could it be tied up?
    But maybe I can't see the other side of the fabric of life. Which makes me think it must look like the Upside Down in Stranger Things. But maybe it doesn't  and this is just what I imagine because I can't see it ! It's a dark place... for me, because I can not see it...not because it's really dark.
    I think people need guidance in their attempts to develop functions, because this process can be frightening. We can't yet do this perfectly (since we don't know all the implications of developing any function in any stacking and the combined effects of function development together with different disorders or even conditions. Just to give an example - do we know that Fi development is a good idea for a pregnant woman ? Fi can trigger disgust mechanisms which might not be exactly what someone really needs when she suffers of morning sickness. 🙂 At this point we can just assume there are combined effects and estimate possible consequences. )
    But although we can't yet do it perfectly, I think we should emotionally support people in this process as much as possible.
    I just think what would have happened if I would have tried to reach Ni without knowing what it is and without being able to talk to people with similar experiences. Probably I would be on some medication right now. :)))
    Emotional support and being able to share these experiences and be heard matters A LOT. Also, the knowledge we have is crucial and expanding it will help people grow and feel safer in the process.
    There is much more to say about your ideas and about other posts in this amazing thread but I have to run and I will probably be able to come back only on Sunday.

    #14516
    Staas
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I will fight anyone who says the ultimate goal is to develop to IIII. There is nothing more special about it anyways. And it won't solve any pre-existing problem, while it may create some more.
    But really, nothing better in any development than in any others. The best development for you is the one you'll reach not thinking about it.

    #14521
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I'm really enjoying this discussion-- @rondo I think you're onto something golden.
    It may be too early to say, because we have so few examples, but what I've seen so far is that 3-4 function conscious individuals have usually undergone some extensive process of growth, and they're over-represented as self-help advocates that teach a different kind of holistic/compassionate message than the Je go-getter life coaches.
    The l-ll shades are especially filled with counter-intuitive examples (like TeSi fairy shades); people who have had to channel non-native parts of themselves over the course of decades. This begs the question of "why", and I think there may be two ways to answer this:
    Passively?
    Maybe in a positive situation, functions can develop naturally as a process of expanding one's horizons. For example, an encouraging parenthood might facilitate Je agency early in life without a struggle to attain it by collision with the world. And by the time a person hits 30's/40's they may be 3-4 function conscious, through the natural and healthy unfurling of their personality.
    Or... Actively?
    In a more negative situation, functions may be developed by environmental pressures --which don't have to be social, but can also be personal, interpersonal, spiritual -- that trigger a more violent awakening out of necessity. I do see a subtle concentration of Flat Affect samples clustering around the bottom two functions, and sometimes when we have psychological urgencies to address (i.e. pre-existing problems), we need to call upon the powers of other parts of us in order to evolve past the pain.

    @staas
    maybe you're an example of the former, while the latter is also a typical course? Would you say your development didn't come out of any urgency or struggle?



    For the record, I actually agree with you that llll isn't necessarily more desirable. I see it as "well-rounded" which implies a kind of spread-out libido, rather than hyper-focused. This has its own effects, as our psychic responsibility is necessarily divided across various considerations (the present/past/oneself/the-world).
    The llll type seems like the development that would have the least glaring "defects" or achille's heels, but not necessarily the most specialized or expert at any one particular thing. llll isn't about being superhuman, it's about being balanced. Still, balance is a valuable thing too.
    We all have one brain, weighing about 1,400 grams, and we just use it differently... no?

    #14532
    Staas
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn I do believe I developed like that because of the people around me in my life. My dad is high Fi and my mother high Te, and Ni looks like the only function I could have genuinely developed alone, though I have no idea how. It may be possible I was high Ni from very young on, as I was very absent minded and in the clouds as a kid. I was not so much a very active guy, I spent most of my days alone reading. But there, maybe the fact that we lived in a country town, with few friends and that my parents taught me to read very young might have helped that.
    So, I do believe you develop functions from actually spending time around people who have them, at least for your secondary axis. I think the development of the polar is a different matter, and I know Jelle realted to having her polar developed from a young age. I developed Fi because my dad raised me and I admired it in him, and I developed Te because my mother forced me, showed me and helped me to study, arrange my life, etc.

    #14533
    Discord
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    @staas What you wrote about spending time around people to develop those functions is interesting. I am very close with my mother who is Fe-Si. However, I perceive adaptive Fe as weak, generic, and "brushing things under the rug." I really do not understand why MBTI glorifies adaptive Fe. In any event, it seems that, although when I am around my mother I allow her to do the Fe-ing, I might have repressed mine due to the aforementioned.
    My father is Se-Ti (and probably would be considered IIII). Historically, he beat me up on how bad my Se, Ti, and Fe was whilst ignoring my Ni. I think he may have charged my Ti and caused the Fe/Se repression?As far as people I have been around who I had admiration for; they were always Ni dominant or Fi dominant. I seem to attribute Fi to a positive and Fe to a negative. I absolutely reject any Si or Te that comes my way though, which cuts me off from a lot of people, obviously.
    *I haven't figured out how to use this forum appropriately, so sorry if I'm posting inappropriately.

    #14534
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @staas
    My own life's narrative bears little resemblance to what you've described, but I thank you for sharing it. It would seem a love of books is what we have in common; I sought them out at an early age and consumed vast amounts of literature. I found in books that which I felt was most acutely lacking in my real life: positive mentorship. For myself, I have had precisely the opposite experience from what you've described above, and while I won't argue with your first statement, my own life experience has been diametrically opposed to this,

    There is nothing more special about it anyways. And it won’t solve any pre-existing problem, while it may create some more.
    But really, nothing better in any development than in any others. The best development for you is the one you’ll reach not thinking about it.

    Function development, for me, alleviated soul-crushing problems, and soul-crushing problems can only multiply or remain stagnant and poisonous when one chooses not to resolve them; their resolution inevitably includes a great deal of thought and emotion be poured into the vessel. But it is one of the beauties of life that two wildly different paths can end in the same destination.

    #14536
    Pine
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I get the feeling that people grossly underestimate the influence of their primary caregivers. The first 10-or-so years of childhood is cementing a basis of self-concept and belief system. But since these psychic structures are mostly unconscious, people trace their function-developments to recent events; to conscious, tangible material; to moments of perceived agency – not seeing that these events and pertaining reactions, are reflections of the past; harvests of child life’s sowed thoughts.
    As far as I know, the most important nutrition for self-development in general, is mirroring. For example, for me to develop Te I need an environment that is fluid enough to react to my Te. In my childhood, my parents would have had to [1] acknowledge, [2] accept and [3] respond to my expression of Te. That would’ve magnified my awareness of and identification with it. That would’ve confirmed my influential ability, and given me social permission to use it on the world.
    Besides ignoring or explicitly discouraging my efforts, my Te-using parents happened to use their Te against my benefit, resulting in an internalization of an antagonistic Te, which further down my path resulted in a completely unconscious manifestation of an abusive relationship with a Te-lead. It eventually forced me to realize that I had an inner brutal and emotionally detached force that needed to be brought to light and seriously repair its relationship with my Fi.
    To bring a clearer picture of what Te became to me, let me use the symbolism from an old dream of mine:
    I wore a dress with iron nails on the inside. None could see them. Only I knew. I couldn't talk properly due to the immense pain of having nails squishing through my torso. I tried to signal that I needed help, but none understood my message. My mother came and tried to take the dress off of me, but the lacing tightened even more and the pain increased. My mother finally saw the distress in my eyes. She felt powerless and panicked, so she yelled for my father to come to rescue. My father came towards me and I knew that he would be too reckless, not knowing about the nails. I shook my head phrenetically, trying to say ”STAY AWAY. DON’T TOUCH IT”. Message not received. The spikes sank so deep into my organs that I passed out and woke up from the dream.
    The tool, Te, was being used completely out of tune with my internal state. So basically every time I used my Te full-on, it injured me.
    Last night, I dreamt about the Te-lead whom I had an abusive relationship with. She was about to expose some illegal business of mine (I had skipped some bureaucratic process that I found pointless), so as to finally put me in jail. The police rushed into my basement, where I sat and played cello. We, the woman and I, started fighting. We were both so mad, we tried to kill each other. At last, we found ourselves in a position on the floor, in which she was lying on her back with me on top, also on my back. It was as if she was the cross, and I was Jesus. She was in the middle of strangling me, when the quarrel suddenly turned out to be a reciprocal desperation for union.
    We were never fighting. We were crying for the permission to love each other.

    #14537
    Pine
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    In the light of @Staas’ and @Rondo’s differing interpretations: I’ve wondered for a while, if individuals with the Ti/Fe axis perceive function-development as more of an epic battle, rather than as an organic unfolding. While the latter would apply to individuals with the Fi/Te axis.

    #14540
    LadyNerdsky
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I get the feeling that people grossly underestimate the influence of their primary caregivers. The first 10-or-so years of childhood is cementing a basis of self-concept and belief system.

    This seems like a really important factor influencing development too, @Pine. I really like what you have to say here about the consequences of development being stifled and repressed due to explicit/implicit disapproval from caregivers. And probably ones who have a different set of lead and aux functions than you.
    I think the important people around me growing up were very Si heavy. Somewhere I got the message that my Ne side was not okay or normal. I saw signs of Ne coming into consciousness around the age of 25, and it hit me hard at 30. And I think what kicked it up there was mental health issues, I think partly from living a "double-life" and hiding and repressing Ne-stuff from public expression. And also finding public-figure role models (mostly Ne-comedians) who taught me that it's okay to think and act that way. I remember as I changed, I felt a lot of push-back from the people who "knew" me.
    The most hurtful comment came from a former housemate I lived with for 5 years (not sure of her CT, but she's a stereotypical ESTJ to paint that picture) who said to my face, "why are you always trying to be weird?", in response to something I was doing automatically and unconsciously. It just was who I was. And who I was was NOT okay, in her eyes. I felt so suffocated by everyone's preconceived notions of who I was while trying to change, that it was part of the reason I tossed my job, left behind that housemate, that city, that whole country and lived abroad for a few years. There's nothing like rapid-changing cities, jobs, people and experiences to drag Ne out in a safe and supported way. Getting that second function conscious somewhat "late" in life felt like a violent re-birth, especially in the face of childhood opposition and judgement.

    #14544
    Faeruss
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    We should not idealise the llll development or indeed developing other functions. On this I agree with Staas. Different developments are better/more apt for different things. Specialisation and generality are in a trade-off relationship, in the former we get efficiency, and in the later we get resilience. Depending on what you want, and on what your value hierarchy is, you will decide to pursue a different combination of the two factors. In this sense I disagree with Staas, as the llll development is special and brings a particular set of tools. This is not to say it is superior or more adapted to all situations. The image I see is that it is a coat of many colours. The other image I see is that it is having many sharp tools at your disposal: you can do more things with them, but you can also cut yourself and other much better with them.
    I also disagree that the best development is the one you reach not thinking about it. That might be the case for some, who in the overall analysis of things, decide this is the best path for them. Not for others. For others the path of conscious struggle is the best path, and there is nothing wrong with that. If thinking about development is part of that overall path for them, then that's perfectly fine. Just as we should not malign people who do not want to think about development and want to stay at the level they have found naturally to be most optimal so too we should not malign those who seek consciously to challenge themselves and to fight their weaknesses. We should have respect for both.

    #14545
    Staas
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I never said the IIII development was not special, but not more special than other developments.
    I have observed the perks were a high versatility, in both a good and bad sense, and also a capacity for intersubjectivity as one can use the whole function register to put oneself in anyone else's shoes. But this comes with a sense of uncertainty about myself that I think may be common with this development, especially as I am Pe Dom.
    Not thinking about development doesn't mean you are not developing ! It means, and I firmly believe this, that you are developing in an optimal way. Just like in love or many other things I noticed in my life, the more you try to consciously improve the more you struggle and stray and put yourself in a miserable situation. I think by consciously trying to develop functions you harm yourself more than you heal. You will develop them, if you manage which I doubt, from a place of struggle and ill that will forever be embedded in whatever you have conscientized.
    My approach would be to fix things not from a CT point of view, fix your life and well with healing a function may come up, who knows, this is like the sex of the baby, it doesn't matter.

    #14549
    Discord
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    @rondo @staas @ladynerdsky @auburn @faeruss @pine
    Does anyone think using/accessing your unconscious to help bring to consciousness unconscious functions in the ego is a possibility? (I'm still new to this, so sorry if this is not novel).
    I've started journaling right before I go to sleep about my day. I follow that by writing down some things I am thankful for and then some traits I want to realize in myself. This all in hopes that I will "bring the good troops home to rebuild the capital", so to speak.
     

    #14551
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    ^^
    I'd be curious to hear what others have to say on this topic, but for myself I think writing was a thread of function development that was very much present and active all the way through my journey. Often the writing that comes pouring out automatically reveals deep psychological truths (re: Kafka And The Myth of the Mortally Wounded Rose). And I also think the intentional writing you are currently engaged in can be extremely helpful in arranging the conscious contents so that the total picture becomes clearer.

    #14555
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Carl Jung said the best and most painless way to bring the unconscious aspects of our psyche to consciousness was by writing down our dreams immediately after waking and having an analyst interpret them over long periods of time. He said the integration of the unconscious is often quite painful and difficult if left to unfold naturally, so he dedicated his later years of his practice to gently guiding people through it.

    #14557
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Does anyone think using/accessing your unconscious to help bring to consciousness unconscious functions in the ego is a possibility?

    I tried this with Ni - I think it can work but there are some dangers involved. I didn't develop it yet but I found out some things about myself in the process and I will look into it more.
    What I did was pretty much visualization but you can also write in a stream of consciousness way. Or you can make collages. Or draw something. You can explore in many ways but you should be careful. Because this is somewhat like a rite of passage. And it involves the possibility of not managing to pass easily or to have some side effects that aren't very comfortable. So, I don't think it is always completely safe.
    But anyway if you want to try visualizing your way to an unconscious function, which you probably do 🙂 I have some experience with this, though I didn't manage to develop it yet. But I can at least tell you what went wrong. I think this should be a different discussion, it diverges a bit from the topic.
    I will try writing too. Actually now that I am thinking about it, most of what I did differently during my Fi development phase was I wrote posts here mostly focusing on Ji topics and conversations with Ji conscious people. I really think this is how I developed Fi.

    #14563
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Well said @rondo. I would add that there is no gain without a sacrifice. Some parts of  you must die for the others to be born. And the parts of you that die might not be so happy about the whole idea.


    @Faeruss
    I agree. My personal experience spells this out. After the illness took everything from me, I experienced an 'ego death,' I kept writing in my diary 'loss of sense of self.'  I needed to find a new sense of purpose, not just a 'career' or something to fill time. It needed to mean something. I took to deep spiritual study through various means, and wrote down all my dreams, as @elisaday mentioned. I learned dream control techniques, learned to return to dreams willfully so I could explore certain facets, etc. I am near certain this is when my Fi developed.  During that whole era I referred to myself as 'undead' and  I felt I was reborn a few years later, as I reintegrated my new self.  Once my 'sense of purpose' was made manifest in my life path, I changed my surname to reflect the 'resurrected version' of myself that I had become. I felt that I had risen from the undead, to rejoin the living - but I would never be the same person I was before.

    #15123
    Discord
    Participant
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    I'm hoping to get some clarity on this. I have been doing shadow work, mirror work, and dream logging for a few months, maybe longer. I also used strategies that Rondo recommended, which I think helped as well. I have noticed changes in the external social environment towards me in a positive way. In fact, in the past two months I have made more friends and done more networking than I have done in the past fifteen years combined. People are now initiating with me instead of avoiding me. I am much more confident with people.  I believe I have brought Fe to light and I was hoping to get some opinions, because I think it also may have turned adaptive. I recently did an interview with WSS founder Jack Oliver Aaron and re-watched the recording and noticed different signals.
    I should mention, I am still in a depression this isn't a result of a depression lifting. I've actually had tragedy and loss occur over the last few months, so this is unrelated.
    Here's the video I was typed with originally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3LghTB1Vw4&t=244s
    Here's me now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U0cvS8mzf8&list=FLER1Hz0HwAak4FnC4EETFEA
    I reached out to Auburn but I think he's very busy, which is why I am posting here.

    #15133
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Before I knew about CT, I mostly just knew about self-growth from the enneagram approach. I thought I was a 4 for a while, so I tried really hard to integrate to 1. I became really even-keeled that way, even though I was already a pretty calm and objective person, and I think it brought me from the pretty low end of unseeliness to a kind of nice middle ground between seelie and unseelie. Then I realized all at once that I was a type 9 in that system, so I started to try and get in touch with my body more.
    I had felt glimpses of presentness and embodiment before, and I sought out those small moments and tried to figure out how to create them at will. I walk around and take photos a lot with my camera, and I realized that I could accidentally get into the embodied mindspace when I was framing a shot and looking at the detail and beauty around me. I began practicing the mindspace outside of photography, and it was really difficult at first, kind of slippery. I practiced completely quieting all thoughts in my mind and completely tuning into the world around me. For a while, I could only do it for about 20 seconds at a time, but eventually it kind of just clicked. Now I can exist in that space for very long periods of time. That is how I developed my Se.
    These examples of intentional self-growth show that we can notice things on the edge of our consciousness and kind of scoop them up into our everyday lives. It's like getting lucky once at something you're not very good at, and then trying to learn for that experience. Questions like this arise: How did it feel when I was in the state of mind required for success in this area? How was I different? What was I thinking about? How was my interior space different?
    It's like growing a skill in something pretty unnatural to you! In doing so though, you may change pretty dramatically.

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
A forum exploring the connection between Jungian typology and body mannerisms.

Social Media

© Copyright 2012-2021 Juan E. Sandoval - Use Policy
searchhomecommentsenvelopegraduation-hatbookearth linkedin facebook pinterest youtube rss twitter instagram facebook-blank rss-blank linkedin-blank pinterest youtube twitter instagram