Not to derail this discussion, but @epickalypze,
If a man thinks he is a woman.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of transness in general, and maybe kind of proved my point in Ti vs Fi thought processes in your understanding of it. You're still approaching the concept of a trans woman from the basis that she is a "man who believes he is a woman," which highlights your over-reliance on dichotomy and established 'laws of nature' to navigate reality. The law of nature you know to be fact is that there are two sexes: man and woman. They are completely removed from each other, cannot shift, and cannot be mutable into something outside themselves. You may find yourself now in a more accepting and nuanced place, but you are still not acknowledging and are explicitly negating a piece of someone's identity in your misunderstanding. I am not, nor have I ever been, a man who believes she is a woman. I have always been a woman who knows she is a woman. I've never been 'trapped in the wrong body' either. This has always been my body. You are very correct in acknowledging that narratives and self-identifications can be limiting though, and that's a huge thing to realize.
I may place myself within the dichotomy, in this case the gender binary, but I do not do so because I believe the dichotomy is the only two expressions of personhood there are. I acknowledge that the dichotomy does not exist. My only reference point is myself. I view every other person as their own reference point. Every expression of self identity is true, regardless of if I personally believe in it or think it is moral. That's just how my brain works. My partner and most of my friends do not fall within the gender binary, and I've never really questioned it, and neither have they. They've arrived where they are in their self-reflections and there is no way I can ever dispute that or decide to define them any other way than they define themselves.
It isn't a difference of objective vs subjective, really. Both Fi and Ti view the other as subjective to some extent. They both view each other as inherently incorrect, and that's how we know that they are two wholly exclusive concepts. They both view their own findings as factual truth until convincingly proven otherwise. In matters of personal identity outside of the logical, though (Fi), it can be tricky to come at it from a Ti point of view. Somebody is probably going to become offended, and for understandable reasons. This is probably where Fe and Te come into play!
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of transness in general
Yea I felt like the perspective I was trying to illustrate required little to no understanding of transness and purposeful structure of labels in order to get the point across. I can see new labels being necessary to counter balance mainstream ones thereby expanding what we know as measurable in the physical world. But to merge the physical into our non-physical aspect of ourselves? What would happen if I said I am black? I'm I saying I am apart of those with the same relative experiences of possessing the skin pigment or am I saying I am the skin pigment? If the former I find it to be just as fair as me saying I am an individual separate from race. If the letter I find it to be as fair as saying someone saying they are a chair. I'm not sure if I am finished BRB I have med appt >''>.
Theoretically, a transperson is someone who was born in the body of the opposite sex. What is behind this has yet to be determined, but it will take a long time to get at anything real. Even if something is discovered, journalists may be afraid to publish it because they will offend people. (Some trans supporters may get offended by the science of gender, some religious or heavily conservative people may get offended by transgenderism having any merit.) Personally I suspect there's something real, a physical chemistry involved in the brain but we don't understand it yet. In the meantime many people are transitioning because it's a fad, and I don't really have a problem with that either, because there is probably a 'spectrum of potential' in how gender can be expressed in each person anyhow. That said, giving kids hormone drugs is abusive (failing to protect them from naive impulses) - and being offended that someone misgendered you is just unrealistic. Some people are rude and purposely misgender you, but a lot of the times they just think you are that gender and didn't realize. So... the 'offended culture' offends me. This is why I get along so well with Beta STs, I guess. I'm not one for expecting people to read your mind. I think people need to take more responsibility for their own decisions. I'm not saying that transgenderism is a choice, but me being sick and speaking in a whisper isn't a choice either, and yet I don't punch every person that asks me "What's wrong with your voice?" Which happens 3-15 times a day if I am not at home. I take responsibility: I'm vocally disabled, people think I have a cold and they think it's their business or they think it's friendly to ask about it. They don't take into account that the room is loud and it's hard to respond; they just say things. Fine. That's how humans are. If I don't learn to accept that then I'll be miserable and offended all the time, which is an unproductive waste of life. In this way I really don't fit classic Fi descriptions.
An interesting and very tired argument! Certainly one that I have heard before. I am not talking about race, I am talking about my experience of gender. I am somewhat confused by what you're attempting to accomplish, but I will speak no further of it, as this really isn't the place to do it. Only attempting to highlight the differences inherent in identity between Fi and Ti using my own life experience as an example, which we may actually accidentally be doing pretty well anyway.
(In response to epickalypse)
Also, in response to animal, I explicitly said that I was not born in the wrong body! And I'm trans! So maybe let's all not talk about stuff we don't have experience in?
@Alice I was responding to the idea in general. I'm a trans supporter and for what it's worth I have dated transmen, had trans friends, researched this heavily and got deep into it with real people. Notice that I said "theoretically." Also I have a male alter-ego and have deeply explored the possibility that I am a man. Please don't presume my experience or lack thereof.
Oh wait, EDIT - I see what your contention was, I worded my post badly. "Trapped in the wrong body," you're right, it's bad phrasing because it's your body which means it's "Right." I hadn't read your post carefully, I was responding to Epic in my own post. Yours was longer so I was going to come back to it later and pay closer attention when I have more time.
But what I meant was someone was born with female genetalia but is psychologically a man, or vice versa. Sorry, I misunderstood the contention there. I will reword my post... I am not always precise with words. I definitely don't see it as "wrong."
And this is why I end up offending people even when I agree with them.... 🙁 . I'll write a supportive post about the topic, but then somehow I got one word wrong and the whole thing just gets turned around on me to make me look like an asshole, while my larger intent and overall point is ignored. So while I do agree with you and you're right that I overlooked that nuance even though you explained it very well in your post, I also don't react well when people refuse to cut me any slack and respond rudely to a post of mine that was clearly well-intended, just because they're "offended." For instance: "Let's not talk about things we don't have experience in." For all you know I am trans and I believe I'm in the wrong body. How do you know I'm not? Also you could have just corrected me or asked if I read your post. You could give me the benefit of the doubt but you didn't.
To bring it back to Fi, this is what I mean about how I don't resonate with the "Fi people who are offended and find things unpalatable." I assume good intent until proven otherwise, and I take someone's overall sentiment into account rather than focus on one word in order to 'frame them.' I argue my point and my feelings with vigor, but I don't say things to insult them personally or imply they are stupid, racist, sexist, narcissistic or utterly ignorant.
Okay, I know I said I wasn't going to talk about it further, and maybe we should thread split at this point! But I absolutely do not know where you get the gall go assume that your experience is anywhere close to mine, or how you can say that you 'support' me when you don't seem to even have a grasp on what you are supporting. I have been living as publicaly trans for years in a city of millions of people. I've dealt with a lot of bullshit. I've had this conversation more than a few times! I have irreversibly changed the very neurochemicals in my brain, and have irreversibly given up the ability to have biological children. You do not have the experience I have on the issue, because I am the issue. Does that make sense?
Words are so important, they convey meaning. If you do not convey what you mean accurately, or directly, or at all, you can't assume that people will assume your intentions are good. I did not miss your larger point. You need to analyze your position and reason out why the things you are saying are not being taken well.
That is how people reach consensus. Not by assuming that you and I have the same experience, but by realizing that our experiences are different. And that has that has very real value. You and i do not share experience, but we share the ability and desire to understand, correct? I want you both to understand what I'm saying about point of view, and in the process, maybe come to a better understanding of all of our points of view.
Okay, I see your edit in your post (really wish we were just doing this in real time), and I understand that you may be trans. I'm left wondering why your opinion isn't more nuanced and is so heavily based in rhetoric that reflects some pretty dates theories based in biology, and why you're not interested in just taking the whole concept at face value, which in my opinion is the most respectful thing to do!
@Alice please stop lecturing me. I agree with your original critique. Either accept it with grace or leave me alone. But I don't appreciate all this anger being directed at me. I'm not the enemy, I just misspoke.
[SPOILER]And yes I am not always precise with words, which is a wound of mine. Not only do I have a chronic illness that intermittently fogs my brain, but also mild dyslexia. My ideas can be well researched, nuanced and solid but I cannot always explain them well. With word-finding, I have good moments and bad ones. I try my best.[/SPOILER]
I apologized about where I was wrong and even edited my post. You were right, I was wrong - but your attitude toward me is still not very open-hearted. In my opinion, my stated view is much more nuanced than yours, in that it took many sides of the issue into account. But I don't feel I can work this issue out with you in an open hearted and respectful way. You have already decided my views reflect something 'dated' and associated me with some "outside viewpoint" - when in fact I think for myself. You are not reading my post but reading your preconceived notions INTO it.
So I have nothing else to say about the issue. My intent was to be supportive but at this point I regret saying anything. If Auburn splits the thread you guys can continue without me. You can represent the One and only correct opinion about transgenderism, and no one else will be allowed to disagree unless they are trans. Not my cup of tea.
I will say this though. As a general rule, directed at anyone and everyone. If you want people to support your cause, to show more understanding, to respect you - then you have to respect them, approach them with an open heart and be patient with their imperfect delivery and perceived flaws in reasoning. Otherwise you push potential allies away.
I'm no longer sure if I am capable of responding in a way that is not offensive. I know you said were done so you don't have to respond unless you want to. I think the reason we starting talking about gender, skin pigment, or any physical description was because we thought or felt it to be beneficial to the diversity between Fi vs Ti. Again I believe I am seeing a lot of what is mentioned about Ti in what I'm writing and again I'm happy that you contributed. Lastly while physical experiences has it's uses it I think it is equally useful to mention our metaphyical experienced like social constructs, levels of consciousness, levels of identity in order to arrive at evermore enhanced physical experiences which is part of what I think CT can create.
(thread split from: https://cognitivetype.com/forums/topic/the-evaluation-of-identity-fi-vs-ti/ )