Fe Profile

Index Forums Cognitive Functions Fe Profile

  • This topic has 17 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by Tea.
  • Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    The completed profile is now live at:

    Fe: Behaviorism & Mythology

    As always, I look forward to your feedback!

    • This topic was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This topic was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This topic was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I’m so glad you posted the Fe article, I was waiting for it.

    I have two questions/observations. 🙂

    1. What is the difference between Fe’s power of will and Se’s volition? I am sure there is one but I don’t see it clearly right now in the articles.

    2. This is not really related to Fe but I noticed you gave some positive examples of Fe users in books and movies ! I know this will be hard 🙂 but maybe you can also find some examples of Se leads or heavy Se characters that could actually be role models for us Se users…?  Maybe there are some even in the same sources, I don’t know, it’s just a suggestion. (I know there are examples in the Se article but I mean…positive examples ! 🙂 )

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    What is the difference between Fe’s power of will and Se’s volition? I am sure there is one but I don’t see it clearly right now in the articles.

    Great question, and yes this gives me an opportunity to elaborate, since they seem to have some overlap at a glance, but are quite different at root. I’ll start by posting them here:

    Spoiler:
    Se: Vitality & Volition

    Se is also characterized by a sense of volition, as their linearity of focus quickly translates into a clarity of desire. There’s an implicit knowledge of what is wanted and, as a Pe function, a craving for its attainment. The Se type will be a go-getter; motivated to gather what it wants in a literal sense. Se will leverage the environment to work for them, being opportunistic and making the best of what they got. And the quest for this attainment will carry a delicious competitiveness, giving Se users an added layer of vitality, but also of a self-assertion in reality. The Se user occupies the place where they stand, making their will known by their very composure. Then, as they lock onto their target, they inadvertently create adversity as opposite wills always exist and chase after the same or competing resources. This only greater fuels their thirst for stimulation and arousal, as they get immersed in the hunt. The challenge of going after their pursuits will be part of the very flow they so delight in navigating, and this quest for vigor can often manifest in hobbies such as drag racing, martial arts, sports and other daring activities.

    Fe: Mind Over Body

    Fe carries with it also a fire, a perseverance and a desire to overcome limitations. It believes in what we might call a force of will or an inner flame. The Fe user may believe that “anything is possible if you put your mind to it” and that you are the master of your own destiny. In a practical sense this often translates to activities such as working out through intense training or taking on a heavy responsibility. This becomes synonymous with a moral effort, where meeting the challenge of those extra 20 pushups is not merely a logistical statement, but one that is tied to their sense of dignity and the fortitude of their mind. Thus for Fe it’s not simply about getting a six pack or the perfect body, but it’s about testing one’s strength of character – measuring how much resilience you have and how disciplined you are. It becomes about training your mind first of all to not be susceptible to the whims of the world, which it implicitly knows that it is. Fe understands that unless something is done, the world will shape you, your body’s weakness will decide for you, and your mind will fail to be your own unless it has been conditioned to resist adversity. It therefore uses training to gain the upper hand over the world and stay true to its values.


    The competitiveness we see in Se comes from the need to chase, from the stimulation of the hunt, and the elation and vibrancy that comes with having an aim to run towards. Thus Se is a “go-getter” in the Pe sense of seeking out what it desires. If it wants it bad enough it’ll get it, but not because of a cultivated discipline necessarily. In this sense Se’s vitality is the analog to Ne’s mass data absorption, which is equally ambitious (“thirsty”) although it’s hard to see that ambition due to how Ne abstracts things.

    The mind-over-body attribute of Fe comes from a place of pain-endurance rather than pleasure or thirst. It comes from the recognition of flaws, from discipline, mental fortitude and self-control. It may not even be connected to “getting” or “seeking out”, as much as to a moral effort. A personal refinement. In this sense Fe shows organization and is militant with itself.

    This is not at all the case with Se when we take it by itself. Se+Je is a different matter, but Se by itself does not seek/chase/hunt or compete from a place of structure and organization — but more from the high of being alive or the “blowing shit up” feeling, as Jelle likes to put it. Se by itself can be quite imprudent and impulsive, even if it’s quite assertive and forthcoming about where its impulse is directed at any given moment.

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I know there are examples in the Se article but I mean…positive examples!

    Oh I’ve no idea what you mean. ^^;

    I don’t know what people consider positive/negative; I just describe what I see. But if you mean fictional examples in the trickster section with less mischievous expressions than Slim Shady and The Joker, I might add: Esmeralda, Aladdin, Jack Sparrow and possibly Bugs Bunny. For example:

    Spoiler:
    SeFi Esmeralda:

    ^ Here she is toying/taunting the antagonist. There’s a lack of fear of danger in Ver, which actually enjoys shocking or rattling their spectators, but in a playful manner. It doesn’t have to be negative – but it’s tricksy.

    ^ And here we see her disappear mysteriously.

    SeTi Aladdin:

    ^ Outsmarting

    ^ Taunting

    In the case of Aladdin we see playfulness, opportunism, and also a certain kind of enjoyment in making the guards struggle. Bugs Bunny is very much the same way, although he’s more of a general Pe character.

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    Shelley Lorraine
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn, After yesterday’s discussion in discord, I’m still a little confused about Fe vs Fi+Te. How does the latter arrive at what nearly looks like this attribute?

    The mind-over-body attribute of Fe comes from a place of pain-endurance rather than pleasure or thirst. It comes from the recognition of flaws, from discipline, mental fortitude and self-control. It may not even be connected to “getting” or “seeking out”, as much as to a moral effort. A personal refinement. In this sense Fe shows organization and is militant with itself.

    In my semi-monthly rituals, I pose challenges to myself in order to maintain my discipline and integrity. I have come to refer to this as calibrating my Fi compass.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    The mind-over-body attribute of Fe comes from a place of pain-endurance rather than pleasure or thirst. It comes from the recognition of flaws, from discipline, mental fortitude and self-control. It may not even be connected to “getting” or “seeking out”, as much as to a moral effort. A personal refinement. In this sense Fe shows organization and is militant with itself.

    This is not at all the case with Se when we take it by itself. Se+Je is a different matter, but Se by itself does not seek/chase/hunt or compete from a place of structure and organization — but more from the high of being alive or the “blowing shit up” feeling, as Jelle likes to put it.   Se by itself can be quite imprudent and impulsive, even if it’s quite assertive and forthcoming about where its impulse is directed at any given moment.

     

    If this is the case then I would wonder why Se leads are overrepresented in music and in ‘stunts?’  Because mastering stunts and music takes a lot of discipline and endurance.  People might think music and stunts are just some ‘fun thrill,’ but try to do what those Se users do without practicing for years and years. How would you explain this?  Anyone?

    Physical stunts is exactly “Mind over Body.”  Same with music.  Se users get in the flow, and it’s much less rigid than Fe, but in order to tap into the flow and produce an impressive feat, you have to be so good at what you’re doing, that you don’t even have to think about it.  This is why I used to practice before a show with a blindfold on (singing through my whisper and playing piano, both of which require discipline).  Without absolute mastery of the techniques, I can’t lose myself to the ‘flow’ during the show. The same goes for Se users who are doing stunts. They can feel the flow in the moment because they spent a lot of time practicing the same moves over and over, so that in the moment, it can ‘run through them.’

    Quote from @bera  from chat. She has no J development.

    Totally agreed ! There is always a way as long as we are alive ! Well, maybe there is a way even after :)) Haunting haters forever ! :))) 😛 yes, I also believe in free will, we are the main creators of our life, not the external circumstances…the circumstances just provide limits to overcome in creative ways, I think
    this is my usual optimistic view…I may stray from it under very stressful circumstances.. but usually I don’t.
    I don’t have a similar difficult story like yours but it is quite amazing to be able to work as a lawyer with my hypersensitivity, seeliness and general attitude :)) plus I think I have some speech issues tbh, I suspected cluttering at some point but now I think it s just because of total lack of J 🙂
    I know many many people who are better at argumenting stuff and making a point
    Who couldn’t make it in this job, quit their studies, didn’t pass the admission exam etc
    So, will is essential

    Despite her lack of J, her attitude is one of willful focus toward a long term goal, exactly like mine. I would have to wonder how this (below) could be the case, just like I’d wonder how so many Se users learned to do stunts & music in the first place, if they lack a will for mastery.

    Se by itself does not seek/chase/hunt or compete from a place of structure and organization — but more from the high of being alive or the “blowing shit up” feeling, as Jelle likes to put it.   Se by itself can be quite imprudent and impulsive, even if it’s quite assertive and forthcoming about where its impulse is directed at any given moment.

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Some posts got moved to a new thread, so I will change this one 🙂

    By “positive” I mean someone you can genuinely admire and who is an inspiration for you to become a better person !

    I like Esmeralda and she is closer to a positive Se character that people might like but I think she is not as relatable as the Jedi or Neo, so maybe you can find others.  (I’m sorry my vultology knowledge is not yet good enough to think of good examples myself, I will try to improve. 🙂 )

    You mentioned some very good points, @Animal !

    I don’t want to brag but I do have a bit of a willful focus indeed, thank you ! 🙂

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Bera.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Coming back to this topic, I think we are over-relying on a small sample size of two here: @bera @animal.

    Let me show you a more wide array of Se-leads (musicians and stunt people):

    SeFi Bam Margera: Imprudent, impulsive, does things as they come to him. He has tenacity, yes, but overall he’s quite unplanned.

    SeTi Lil Baby: Says here that he knocks out songs in 20-25 minutes. This is a common theme I see also in:

    SeFi Sia Furler: Says that she just writes songs in ~40 minutes, sends them out and never thinks about them again. (5:10+, especially at 5:35)

    SeFi 6ix 9ine: Talks about how he just spews out words (1:18:25), and then “it’s a hit.” He admits that very little discipline goes into it, and a lot of it is on-the-fly.

    SeTi Quavo: Talks about how making a song is like going fishing, you don’t know what you’ll get.

    I could give more examples but it’s a bit time consuming. The main point being that Se-leads have a strong pattern of “winging it” yes, and they say so themselves. There’s a difference between dedication that comes from passionate intrigue, and dedication that comes from a fortification of will.

    Ne also has a similar sort of obsessive intrigue, and can be quite dedicated to a given subject if it continues to be a source of interest. Adam Savage is an example of this kind of passion with his workshop and tinkering. Ne-leads can go-all-in on subjects and I’m not denying that Pe can be quite devoted, in that particular sense.

    But I would be very careful to conflate that with “willpower”, as willpower is a type of willingness to do what is necessary but not natural or easy. I don’t see this in Se l— or Se l–l types, but I do see it in direct proportion to their level of Je signals, letting me know that this attribute (when present) is coming from Je and not from Se alone.

    Gamma: Now, I do have to make a special note about what I think may be a relevant factor here. I say in the Gamma metabolism section:

    …the Gamma quadrant tends to view one non-negotiable reality (“the here and now”) that is happening in a way that’s aligned to universal principles and which can be leveraged towards our desires. There is no confusion in the Gamma type as to what is real. This leads Gamma types to be Holistic Empiricists. A technical term which can be used to summarize them would be: Meritocrats. This is because the condition of any person or thing is understood as being a direct cause of their actions or of the inescapable forces at play in the universe.

    There is a general/baseline Gamma qualia that exists, which makes Gammas more no-bullshit, more straight-to-business, and meritocratic than any other types. As the video you recently posted here says, Gamma energy carries these straightforward qualities in even the “ESFP.”

    I find this to be a sufficiently appropriate explanation for why even some SeFi l— types may have ambition and drive, or at least a direct sense of what they want (Fi), what reality looks like (Se) and an implicit sense of how to get it (Te) whether or not they have any of those functions conscious.

    Since we all have active use of all functions, even when they’re not conscious, the SeFi l— is still processing reality via Te when it comes to the “how” and is realistic as to the “how” via Se. This is also why the SeFi profile in the book lists an SeFi subtype as “The Manager” and makes note of this habit even in SeFi. There is no need to insert Je attributes into the equation, as this explanation seems sound to me without trespassing that territory.

     

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn
    Songs also write themselves through me. I turn on a tape recorder, and just let it write itself, then listen to it, as if for the first time. In some cases, I edit the parts that need it; in other cases, the song is perfect the way it is.  The songs tell me what they need.  Once I had about 45 songs I divided them into three concept albums which had ‘presented themselves’ to me over 20 years.

    My personal values and intentions with my music go beyond “sending it out and never thinking about it again.” I’ve written songs for money very quickly, sent them out and never thought about them, but my interest is bringing Erosia to Earth, so I’m putting more willpower and dedication toward that end. So, the “songs write themselves through me in 10  minutes” stuff is quite familiar for me.

    That said –  I would ask- how do these people write songs so fast? Where did they learn to write, to play instruments?  Although songs write themselves through me in the moment, it took years to develop enough skill to write them that well.  I began playing at age 4 and practiced every day, sometimes 12 hours a day. This is why the songs came out of me so easily.

    People are not born with mastery of instruments and songwriting. They practice to get there.  I was writing full songs at 8, and famous musicians were calling me a virtuoso. But I was practicing daily since age 4. As is the case for every ‘virtuoso.’ They may possess raw talent, as I did, but their skills do not sprout from the sky.

    Similarly, I’ve been editing my novel for 10 years because my writing requires practice and refinement, to do justice to the vision.  I have written 400 page books in a month, several times, and after writing a chapter I read it as if for the first time. I could easily draft a long novel every month, but I’m not a good enough writer to just close my eyes and whatever comes out, is good. I’m still honing my craft so I can be a worthy vessel through which the visions can emerge.

    The discipline comes in when you’re not good enough to just “churn out a great product,” so you practice. That’s why those people are able to write so fast – because they mastered the craft in the first place – which requires discipline.

    This is also why I practice before shows with a blindfold on. I want my body to know the song so well, that during the show, I am not even there at all. I’m not thinking about technique or mistakes – I become the song.

    Since my voice barely works and is undependable, it required relentless willpower to get any sound out; more than I can describe. Diet, not going out at all and talking in loud places, workout, constant vacuuming, practicing enough but not too much, doctor stuff, 50 pills a day separated from each other in doses with appropriate meals, etc. Not to mention organizing, promoting, managing, writing, playing, teaching the band, practicing, and finding ways to support this endeavor financially.  It was a whole lifestyle, constant relentless discipline, just for the sake of a voice that was barely there, and undependable no matter what I did. I kept it up for several years,  until my illness no longer allowed it. But during the moment when I was writing songs or performing, I was not thinking about this. I was moved by an indescribable force and the music expelled itself through my body, its vessel.  During that time, as much as any other time; I would write new songs in 20 minutes, and the songs would be perfect.

    Anyone who is ‘letting the music run through them’ without thinking in the moment, spent years practicing in order to attain the mastery that allows them to do that. Anyone writing songs, practiced the instrument that they use to write it on. They wrote so many songs by now, that it happens to them in their sleep – but – for any skill they are demonstrating right now, the discipline is on the back end.

    Se leads don’t come out of the womb writing songs and performing amazing physical feats. They are not exempt from the 10,000 hours rule – to do something well, you have to put in 10,000 hours.  So even if I wrote my first song at age 8, I had already practiced music for several years, in order to be fluent enough in the language of music to write it.  Then, it’s easy to say “Songs write themselves through me in 10 minutes and I never have to look at them again.”   But I can’t pretend there was no discipline involved in gaining that ability.

    Those people you listed – do they play instruments?  If so, how did they learn to play?  Were they born with magical music abilities that simply existed without any practicing?  What happened on the back end?  That’s what I would want to know.

     

    Edit:
    Disclaimer: I rewrote this post about 30 times. I haven’t slept properly in a few nights, so I am really really sorry if my tone sounds harsh, I don’t intend it that way. The bold statements are just to make my main point stand out. 🙁  I kind of wish I waited til tomorrow to write this so it sounds less rude, lol.  But I don’t mean it rudely, it’s just a genuine question.

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Songs also write themselves through me. I turn on a tape recorder, and just let it write itself, then listen to it, as if for the first time. In some cases, I edit the parts that need it; in other cases, the song is perfect the way it is. The songs tell me what they need. Once I had about 45 songs I divided them into three concept albums which had ‘presented themselves’ to me over 20 years.

    My personal values and intentions with my music go beyond “sending it out and never thinking about it again.” I’ve written songs for money very quickly, sent them out and never thought about them, but my interest is bringing Erosia to Earth, so I’m putting more willpower and dedication toward that end. So, the “songs write themselves through me in 10 minutes” stuff is quite familiar for me.

    Ok but how is this relevant to my point? You have Je development. If you wanted to make a claim about Se’s attributes you’d have to use someone (many someones) other than yourself, specifically Se l— types.

    That said –  I would ask- how do these people write songs so fast? Where did they learn to write, to play instruments?  Although songs write themselves through me in the moment, it took years to develop enough skill to write them that well.  I began playing at age 4 and practiced every day, sometimes 12 hours a day. This is why the songs came out of me so easily.

    These guys are often in their teens, without that much experience, but a good voice and a good ear for rhythms. There’s a preponderance of Se-lead musicians that are just picked up by labels because the labels spot talent. There are some that “work for it” like Taylor Swift, but a lot of these Se-lead musicians and rappers don’t have a very intense career background or training.

    People are not born with mastery of instruments and songwriting. They practice to get there.  I was writing full songs at 8, and famous musicians were calling me a virtuoso. But I was practicing daily since age 4. As is the case for every ‘virtuoso.’ They may possess raw talent, as I did, but their skills do not sprout from the sky.

    Sure, talent + work is needed. But you can go a long way with a lot of talent and less work. I’m going to be firm about this, this time, and say that you need to look outside of your personal experience. If we take Se-leads as a whole, what we see is a lot of young talent that has their moment in the spotlight, and then it fades away. I’m not talking about your case. I’m talking about Se-leads in general, and specifically those without Je.

    Scenario: A kid joins rap battles at around ~14-15 years old, proves they have a good voice and sense of rhythm, gets recognized by a big label, has a few number one hits, a few years of fame (perhaps a tour) and then it’s over. This scenario happens more often than those who keep going through discipline.

    I’m not saying all Se-leads just have talent and stumble into fame without effort, of course it takes some work, but they will say in interviews that they just “ride the waves” of the industry, and it’s like a hurricane. There’s a whole engine involved in the music industry, with middle-men/etc ready to do all the hard pulling if you just sit at the studio and pop out the songs. So a lot of Se-lead rappers and musicians have other people handling their logistics.

    The discipline comes in when you’re not good enough to just “churn out a great product,” so you practice. That’s why those people are able to write so fast – because they mastered the craft in the first place – which requires discipline.

    I disagree. What makes a great product is often a matter of chance; of how the audience likes or dislikes your sound. So in the case of 6ix 9ine for instance, he feels that he just tosses out songs with little thought, but it seems to appeal to the masses. Oppositely, someone can grind for years over melodies and yet not produce a product that is successful on the world stage.

    So success =/= discipline in all cases. It’s about being the right face/voice/sound at the right time, appealing to the right audience. And a lot of times musicians find themselves in success rather accidentally. For example FiNe Vashti Bunyun suddenly found herself famous now into her 70’s for things she wrote casually in her teens but which the culture wasn’t ready for yet.

    So for every Se-lead you see making it big, there are dozens not making it big which may be producing way more or way less material. Who may be hardly trying, or trying really hard. Music is kind of a hit or miss profession, at the global level.

    It’s not comparable to other domains where effort directly equates to income or prosperity. For example, I don’t see too many Se-lead businessmen, lawyers, doctors, etc — things that do take a lot of discipline and hard work. The reason Se-leads are over-represented in music may have something to do with how the domain doesn’t always count as “work” if it’s doing what you love.

    This is the opposite of what I say of Fe, or Je for that matter (lets not forget that Te also has an analogous section called “Challenge and Conscientiousness”). For Fe/Te it’s not a situation where they have a muse/passion that sparks their drive. It’s the cerebral comprehension of the need to be pragmatic for the attainment of a higher order.

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn

    This is the opposite of what I say of Fe, or Je for that matter (lets not forget that Te also has an analogous section called “Challenge and Conscientiousness”). For Fe/Te it’s not a situation where they have a muse/passion that sparks their drive. It’s the cerebral comprehension of the need to be pragmatic for the attainment of a higher order.

    Yes. I think this is the distinction we’ve been looking for.

    Ok, I can see your point regarding the Se musicians who don’t have J development and don’t want to work except ‘in their passion,’ and then become one-hit wonders by “riding the wave.” That actually makes perfect sense and this is the thing I’ve been hoping to put my finger on. You did it perfectly 🙂

    I was just using myself as an example to point out why I see practicing & discipline being “behind” the mastery of writing songs offhandedly in the moment. But I do agree that discipline and fame don’t always correlate.  (Talent and fame definitely don’t correlate, especially in this day and age, but don’t get me started on that….)

    I guess Se leads are overrepresented among famous musicians because they can have the talent of ‘riding the wave as it is’ and exploring whatever is there in the moment, and jumping on board to do what they love; rather than Je-ish “doing what needs to be done” based on conscience.  It is all a ‘riding the wave’ style ‘chasing’ the energy of the thing that inspires them.  And in this, I can see the Se base even in myself, easily; even if I take further steps through J functions, to crystalize the process into something ‘crafted, honed and meaningful’ to me.

    Your post makes perfect sense, and I am glad you articulated it 🙂

    Again, I apologize if my tone sounded forceful. I was just trying really hard to get the thing into words. Thank you for your response!!  And I appreciate the perspective it offers.

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Animal.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Sure, talent + work is needed. But you can go a long way with a lot of talent and less work. I’m going to be firm about this, this time, and say that you need to look outside of your personal experience. If we take Se-leads as a whole, what we see is a lot of young talent that has their moment in the spotlight, and then it fades away. I’m not talking about your case. I’m talking about Se-leads in general, and specifically those without Je.

    Keep in mind I’m using myself as an example to make a point. I’m perfectly aware that we’re chasing after something archetypal here that unites all Se leads, and I am only one of millions. I just bring up my experience because it’s a realistic reference point to articulate what I’m trying to say.  (A very different communication style here from Alpha, but I was after the same end.)

    What I was getting at was not ‘this is about me!’ but rather – that I know first hand (not just from me but from working with other musicians too) –  when you see a masterful feat, there’s got to be some work on the back end. However, you raised a different point which makes that argument moot – which is that real mastery is not a requirement for a Se lead to make it as a musician.  And the over-representation of them in that industry, as opposed to, say – lawyers – is due to the ‘chasing of passion’ rather than doing something that isn’t fun, enlivening, invigorating or passionate at all, but just pays the bills or offers a service to society for the sake of others — which is Je — mind over body.

    So I think we got to the crux of the difference, quite well. And now that we did, it actually applies to me, too, even if I’m only one example.

    I always seek the principle that is universal to the type, which means that I, too, have to be part of it. Since I’m the best reference point I have, I’m the one I bring up. But it’s not about me, it’s about the principle of the thing- and I think you hit the nail on the head.

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I’m glad that clarified! Yeah, I was trying to put my finger on it too.

    Thanks for helping bring that to light. Maybe now I can have a clearer explanation going forward.

    What I was getting at was not ‘this is about me!’ but rather – that I know first hand (not just from me but from working with other musicians too) –  when you see a masterful feat, there’s got to be some work on the back end. However, you raised a different point which makes that argument moot – which is that real mastery is not a requirement for a Se lead to make it as a musician.  And the over-representation of them in that industry, as opposed to, say – lawyers – is due to the ‘chasing of passion’ rather than doing something that isn’t fun, enlivening, invigorating or passionate at all, but just pays the bills or offers a service to society for the sake of others — which is Je — mind over body.

    Yes, exactly.

    Well said!

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Auburn.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @auburn
    Thank you for your brilliant explanations too 🙂

    It definitely clears up the difference for me, and helps me articulate it too! Thanks for letting me push a little 🙂  it wasn’t my intent but sometimes that damn hunger for the truth and rawr vitality gets the best of me :p

    But the truth has shone :3

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    To sum it up:
    Se – with or without Je –  is driven by Muse, Hunger, Inner Flame, the Chase, the Thrill.

    Je – with or without Pe – is driven by Conscience, Necessity, Morality, Principle.

     

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Hehe <3

    Here’s a Fe-ish one, for sentiment

    Tea
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I haven’t read this yet (I’m sure it’s wonderful!), but I’ve been thinking about “The Strong Arm of Fe” lately. There is bamboozley Fe, out for the self, and there is Strong Arm Fe, which in anchored in principle and can bear much weight. The Japanese character for “man” comes to mind. It’s a strong arm beneath a rice field.

    There is a nice little complement for Fe – “woman,” represented by a sitting lady, which seems very Ti.


    @alerith
    , I thought you might like this. 🙂

    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tea.
    • This reply was modified 2 years ago by Tea.
Viewing 18 posts - 1 through 18 (of 18 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© Copyright 2012-2020 J.E. Sandoval
SEE HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION

DISCLAIMER

The content on this site is not
intended for medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice
of your physician or other qualified
health provider with questions you
may have regarding a medical condition.
For more information visit this link.

SHARE: FACEBOOK, SUPPORT: PATREON