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  • #26726
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Hello,
    I wanted to open this up to be its own discussion, after getting some feedback from Discord -- and also to get a better grasp on how to write out the rest of this article. Here is the current content of the article:
    https://cognitivetypology.com/index.php?title=EN

    Import:

    EN is a compound function in Model 1, created by the combined activity of Se->Ni or "Se in service to Ni." EN has the same general attitudes as Ne (E+N), but is coming from Se-Ni's metabolism. EN is the sub-primary function of the SeFi and SeTi types and is present in all Beta and Gamma types.

    Overview

    The EN compound is produced when Se's exploration, as a Pe function, is directed towards exploring the web of Ni intently and in real-time. What results is a real-time exploration and journey through the associative environmental landscape of Ni, while nonetheless always following Ni's isomorphic trendlines, rather than spontaneously and indiscriminately diverging paths the way Ne does. As such, Se's exploration into Ni's territory will be convergent, rather than divergent. Additionally, as Se explores Ni, it does so with the same intense amplification that it directs towards all of its endeavors, delving deeper into a linear association chain, rather than spreading itself thinner. This exploration commonly leads to sensing inevitabilities or premonitions at play, born from Ni, and which stand in contrast to the open future often sensed by Ne.

    Behavioral Differences between EN and Ne

    The following are behaviors commonly manifested by Se in service to Ni.

    EN: Convergent Association Exploration

    When the EN user activates Se->Ni together, what results is a thirst for exploration (Pe) that happens within a mysterious, pre-existing Ni space. Like walking into a cave, or peering "behind the curtain," the Ni territory is seen as a dimension of the universe that is awaiting discovery. The EN user may sense that this Ni space is real and accessible in trans-temporal sense. All of Se's experimental abilities, as a Pe function, get put to use towards excavating this domain. And this experimentation will be motivated to poke and pry the domain, to learn more about it while the existence of the space, and its isomorphic nature, always remains implicitly accepted. As this exploration happens, Se navigates the isomorphic trendlines of Ni like railroads which lead them inescapably towards convergent conclusions about their present reality within a wider cosmic pattern. This can lead to an interest in things like astrology, tarot and divination, as ways to try and access the core patterns underlying reality. A sense may exist that reality is geometrically divine, harmonious and beautiful -- and this mysterious geometry permeates everything with its structure. It then becomes the quest of the EN type to uncover how it is that this mysterious geometry is operating through their personal lives, either by the convergence of numbers, dates or events, in rhythmic harmony to some eternal shape or symbol.

    #26709
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Here's a video reply by Janie --

    And two followup video replies from me too 😀

    #26710
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    input from Veryanne -

    I very much relate to this metafor. I tend to get this feeling of being almost there, which I think goes hand in hand with examining the beads actual available data) and pulling the thread (trying out different combinations of possible potential data). I often go through a process of observing the beads, and trying to make sense of it all, feeling this "almost there" in an almost convulsive way, and then I have to step back, sometimes for months if it's a complicated problem I'm trying to solve. And then after a while I return, and I remember something and things make sense. To stick with the metafor, it feels like I'm pulling the beads, but it's stuck and then it just sort of pops loose, so the thread all of a sudden becomes much easier to pull and examine. That's where I get a much clearer idea of what it might be (though my ideas are rarely if ever absolute). I recognise this feeling of dread as well. I'm not sure when in the process this starts, but I think it starts when I've examined as much available data as possible, but I've not yet been able to truly examine the thread. It feels like a contracting feeling in the center of my chest that sometimes glows up my entire torso all the way up my neck, but it rarely enters my head, because it's not something I can really think about, because I don't know exactly what to think about. Lots of text, hope it makes sense

    and

    I just watched your second vid. This too seems accurate to me. To make it concrete: I've done deep dives into typology and spectrum disorders, and I'm currently doing a deep dive into hypermobility disorders, and I can feel how all of this might be connected (something like a tencendency to develop certain functions, as well as a tendency towards adhd and hypermobility might all stem from the same source) but I'm not at all sure on how they are connected, I can just sort of intrinsically feel that they probably are. And that's where the aforementioned dread sets in again, because if all this is true, and enough research can be done, this could change the way/rate in which people are diagnosed, or even te diagnosis itself, because we might discover that rather than an anomaly, it's just one of a couple of "normal" ways type can develop. (this is how I feel about CT, lol)

    #26711
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    The process you describe in EN is extremely relatable. This is why it gets frustrating for me - I have been known, through my life, to make accurate predictions about the future. The way I explain it in relation to Se, is that we see "what's right in front of us" but also the patterns that it leads to. So we see A, then we see B, then we see C. So we presume D is coming next. And as for me, I can extrapolate all the way to H, or even Z, quite often. Although, it doesn't necessarily have to be Ni "conscious" because those extrapolations can come to me in epiphanies, where I can see H, I, and J, but I fail to explain to other people what happened in between D and H. They want to know, what about E, F, and G???? How can you get all the way to H from there.. and then jump to J as well?
    I can do this not only on a personal or interpersonal scale (like where a relationship is headed) but also where the world is headed. My predictions about politics have astounded people (in retrospect) who think they know way more than me, and actually, they probably HAVE studied more 'concrete facts' than I have, but I'm the one who sees where it's going. The frustration has been that I can't manage to articulate the process in between. This is especially frustrating with politics since people will presume I have a certain "agenda" or political alliance when I predict things. But really, it's not about that, it's just what I see, unattached to what I "want." (Plus I often see a lot of doom, but not always.) And I can also see how various so-called "sides" are responsible for this and how their actions as a whole will combine to lead to X and Y and Z if we don't change something (and I have suggestions for what it has to be) right now.
    Politics aside, if I told people what would happen in their relationships I would not have any friends. So most of the time i keep this to myself, but sometimes if someone is really in trouble then I splat, and people often feel naked and frustrated. Like... they can't deny the inevitabilities I see, even if they want to. I can't count how many friends have distanced from me only to come back months later and say "damn, you were right about everything." People who know me well, come to me to ask where things are headed because they trust I'll have a reasonably high chance of making a correct assessment of the future.
    I would not say that I'm "overly sure" however. People choose to interpret it that way because I have an intense talking style, but it's not how I actually feel, or what I say. I can only say what I see as the most likely outcome. I can't make any promises. And I do relate so much to what you said about the CLOSER view where there are two chains intertwined. But I can have trouble explaining what those chains are (although i'm getting better at articulating it). But I've always seen them, the various factors at play that come together to create the upcoming, inevitable - or at least, highly likely - scenario.  But most of the time, I don't act on this in any serious way. I know what I want, hope for the best, and try to turn the "flow" in my favor, but remain aware of the inevitabilities.
    But it might be going too far to say that I doubt myself. It's more like.. throughout my life, I keep on kicking myself for NOT trusting my assessments, because they're almost always right. I used to write over and over in my diary, "Trust your heart, it's always right." As I get older, I just ... trust my assessments... but I let go of trying to show them to others even if I really care about them. I'm sick of having my intentions misinterpreted so I'd rather just let people stumble around in the dark (when I know exactly where the light is) for the most part. And I say that with deep regret. But the last thing I need is people judging me for making "careless assessments" when they don't understand my process or my intent.

    #26713
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @animal - Hehh! I'm probably one of those people who would be wanting the whole A-to-Z sequence explained. But I also get this feeling. I also can't always delineate my thoughts, yet I feel I know things -- though what you describe is something more specific.
    Which brings me to something I want to clarify - which is that some of what you wrote above is in part Ni, but some of this falls more generally into the category of unconscious function processing. This happens from not having clearly explicit understandings of what happens when any processes work outside of our conscious awareness, even an Se or Si process.
    It's curious how in other systems Ni is painted as "knowing without knowing why", because that isn't actually the way Ni works. The irony here is that, a lot of times actual Ni-leads are quite forthcoming in what they know and the reasons behind them can be elaborately monologued. It may come in the form of a cryptic ramble, but if you listen long enough they'll tell you their A-to-Z process just fine. It's those with lower Ni that may feel more mystery tied to their hunches. The whole "hunch" phenomenon is really about unconscious functions in any types.
    SeFi's and EN
    That said, there is a subset of database samples that are SeFi's with an interest in clairvoyance or divination. The so-called crystal witches. You didn't phrase it quite this way, but I think the essence of what you describe is kinda the same, since for example a good tarot reader (hi Bera! 😉 ) has to simultaneously be a good thread-navigating and Pe dynamic/situational explorer. Knowing how the future of a relationship will go, or political outcomes.. seems like an adjacent extension of this trend (?).

    #26714
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn
    First of all - I completely understand why someone would want the sequence explained, as I'd also be unlikely to agree with someone's conclusion  - or even understand it at all - if it seemed random or haphazard. So I view it as "my fault" when I can't articulate it. What hurts is when people ascribe motives to me that I don't have. Like pushing a political agenda (and people always accuse me of belonging to the "Side" opposite of their own, when meanwhile I really do not squarely fit into these camps, and even when I do fit with some camp on some issue, that has nothing to do with my predictions aside from, maybe, having been open to reading certain authors or data).  Or they might think I want them to break up because I'm jealous or...whatever. Ugh. If I had such negative sentiment I wouldn't be making myself vulnerable by sharing my inexplicable visions in the first place!
    I agree, Ni is able to fill in their entire process. But their future predictions are oddly not always as accurate as mine. Isn't that strange?  I think this stuff works best when it's me and a Ni lead together, explaining an issue to a third party. Like my NiFe father and myself. I might spout a prediction and then my father explains to the table why I might have reached that conclusion. And I'm like.. YES THAT'S IT. Thank the heavens! But he is not actually as accurate as I am.  My theory is that it has to do with fixating their perception in a world-view rather than constantly updating their intake of what's right in front of them. (Also, my father is better at this than Ni leads who are not Se conscious, in my experience.)
    Over the years I got much better at articulating and understanding why I see this future outcome. I'll have to send a video to see if my Ni is more developed. (Sorry I know I promised one a long time ago). Writing really helped with this. I needed my protagonist to lay out her thought process at times... although it has to be boiled down to the essential points in an ongoing flow, to avoid bogging down the reader. (I see why so many fantasy writers are Pi leads or very high Pi.)  This need to explain it, and having my father edit and point out what's missing over the years, has really helped me to articulate the threads.
     

    #26716
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Ah, the intention thing. Yeah, that wouldn't be part of my skepticism at all. If anything, lately I've become even more keenly aware of the need to suspend judgments of intention - really, in almost all situations.

    Also, my father is better at this than Ni leads who are not Se conscious, in my experience.

    Oh right, yes you're right about Se helping Ni to elaborate. Ni-leads, with even moderate access to Se can perform an IS compound, which gives explicit examples to go with their trendlines. I suppose the best, or most explicit, results are always achieved when both poles of an axis are conscious.

    #26718
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh @Auburn !!

    @Ivory
    and I were just discussing this, and some interesting insights came up.
    So, I know I haven't sent in a video of my brother to be typed. I am still waiting for him to consent. 🙂 But, he looks identical to someone you typed as NeFi, and I have always thought his pscyhology fit Delta and for a while, Pe.  I'm 95% certain of his typing as NeFi at this point, and my father's, we are certain, is NiFe.
    Growing up, we had a nice yard, and as children, my brother and I would play "war" in the yard.  I would write elaborate fictional tales about our other brother being Arnold Schwarzenegger 😀 and claim the house was the battle station we were working for, etc.  I was invested in fighting with sticks, running, and also coming up with these "missions" and thrusting our energy at them full force while allowing the landscape to shape the vision. My brother, meanwhile, was obsessed with collecting toy guns. We'd go to the toy store (remember Toys R Us?) and my parents would aim to buy us each a toy gun. I'd get one, but my brother would keep wanting this gun and that gun.  I just wanted one weapon to play out the story and, you know - to USE it.  (Even if only to "Use" it in fantasy world, since there was no semblance of a real bullet.)
    As teens and adults, my brother collected expensive and elaborate artistic folding knives, which are far too fancy to use.  I continued on to write fantasy novels. I would find a character's "perfect weapon" based on their personality, or inherited from their background, etc.  But the main focus was on what they're doing, where they're headed.  For this reason, my parents thought of me as an "intuitor" the first time a distinction between "sensors and intuitors" ever came up.  They were so convinced this was the case.  And they insisted my brother was a sensor. He was obsessed with the details of these knives, the collections of physical items, etc.  My father also has extensive collections of guitars, gemstones, and so forth.  They are both extremely tasteful, and have impressive collections of the best stuff, impressing anyone in the field. My father's vintage guitars are a huge hit with his famous musician friends and my brother's knife collection was so respected in the knife community, he was featured in a knife lovers magazine as the youngest real collector!   As for me, I would never have the keen eye to notice all these detailed intricate "guitar parts" and "knife parts." My interest was: what can I use it for? How do you fight? How do you meet the demands of reality?
    Thinking about it now - my interest was "how do I work this into the real world." Or if it's a fantasy setting, what's a realistic and involved way to drive the plot forward.  Meanwhile the intuitors (my father and brother) were more focused on little details - and they were very good at it -- but they didn't have a care in the world if there was a real use for the thing. My father is a great guitarist and his guitars all PLAY very well, but he's not touring or making videos, and he could just as easily practice on two guitars instead of 25.  But they are both self-identified "collectors," whereas I have never been. I'd prefer to save my money for something useful or.. you know, living.  Like to save up for protools so I can record songs. To be fair to them, they are very aware of which details are worth more money in the market, and their items increase in value exponentially. This is something I don't have an eye for at all. That's intuitor stuff. 🙂
    (Oh, but I should point out, when it comes to fashion, I win every time. I might not notice the detailed icons on the shirt, but damned if I don't make a bold statement and understand what type of psychological impression it will give off. They have trouble even dressing themselves if they take any fashion risks. My mother, who is probably FiSe, basically dresses them.)
    But it's funny how on the surface, all this focus on "little details" and my focus on "making something move forward and unfold into an inevitable destiny" can make it seem like I'm N and they are S by standard MBTI definitions.

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