Dune & CT

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    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    In this thread I'll place the transcriptions I took from Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune. And possibly other transcriptions from Frank Herbert's original six novels as well, HoD and CH:D just happened to be the two I had re-read most recently, taking notes on things that stood out to me psychologically, or especially when I felt the passage would be relevant in terms of CT.  ***There will likely be SPOILERS for those that haven't read some/ all of the books in the series***
    Edit: It has been brought to my attention that some added context could be very useful here; this brief appendix should cover the essentials and will hopefully be adequate for the texts currently presented below:

    • Family: House Atreides - most important family in the Dune universe, genetic source of strange abilities, including prescience: the ability to see the future. One of several royal families vying for greater political control in the first novel, Dune. By the time of CH:D, the Atreides genes have been spread throughout the human population and there is no longer an official imperial House Atreides.
    • Spice: Known as Melange, unique drug only produced on the planet of Dune. Concentrated melange induces the Spice Agony (see: Bene Gesserit Sisterhood below). Melange increases longevity by centuries (ages of 300+ are not unheard of) and bestows myriad psychic benefits.
    • Chapterhouse: The stronghold planet/ home base of the Bene Gesserit during the course of the novels HoD and CH:D.


    • Miles Teg - Rank of Bashar, highest-ranking officer in the Bene Gesserit military (still subordinate to Mother Superior); Mentat; Atreides.
    • Duncan Idaho - Central character of the DUNE series. An incarnation appears in each novel. Sometimes Mentat, sometimes ghola (a recreation from cells of the original Duncan Idaho), sometimes more. Originally the swordmaster of Paul Atreides. Duncan bears a deep loyalty to the Atreides for rescuing him as a child. In HoD and CH:D Duncan is a Mentat-ghola.
    • Bellonda - Reverend Mother-Mentat, close adviser of Taraza & Odrade. Distrusts Duncan Idaho and believes he would best serve the Sisterhood dead.

                     Reverend Mother Superiors:
                                                 -  Taraza (Heretics of Dune)
                                                 -  Odrade Atreides (Chapterhouse: Dune)
    Organizations: (for anyone who might want to learn more about the Dune universe without reading the books, I would highly recommend the Youtube channel 'IdeasOfIceAndFire'. I have no affiliation with the channel or its creator, I just think it's a great resource.)

    • Mentats - Human beings trained to replace the functions of a Thinking Machine, or A.I., following a war called the Butlerian Jihad in which these Thinking Machines were universally banned. Mentats are trained in specialized schools that allow them mental faculties unavailable to most of the universe's human population. Mentats are not a political organization in the sense of being a ruling imperial house, nor are they similar to commercial organizations like the Spacing Guild; Mentat Schools produce the individual Mentats that the political organizations (House Atreides, Bene Gesserit, etc.) then employ towards their own agendas.
    • Bene Gesserit Sisterhood - Largely clandestine, but far-spread and powerful alliance of matriarchs known as Reverend Mothers. Reverend Mothers are created from an event known as the "Spice Agony", an intense physical and spiritual journey in which an acolyte of the Sisterhood gains access to her complete line of female ancestral memories. The Reverend Mother can then tap into any of those lives or memories contained within her (Other Memory), but at great peril (how easy to lose oneself in the past). The Reverend Mothers are lead by one Reverend Mother Superior whose position can always be stripped by a panel of independent jurors known as Proctors. Together the Reverend Mothers influence politics behind the scenes by running a secret breeding program in which select Bene Gesserit women are sent to seduce men for offspring seen as desirable for the Sisterhood's and the human species' needs. The Bene Gesserit are the proverbial "power behind the throne" advising the direct rulers of the royal families. Beginning in Heretics of Dune, the Sisterhood moves into a direct governance role, though still keeping as many of their activities as clandestine as possible, especially their religious power-propaganda division, the Missionaria Protectiva. Many cultures live in fear/awe of the Reverend Mothers and their spiritual-religious-physical projections of poise and power.

    DUNE (Series of Six Novels by Frank Herbert)
    Mentat Handbook:
    Memory never recaptures reality. Memory reconstructs. All reconstructions change the original, becoming external frames of reference that inevitably fall short.
    [From Miles Teg's perspective]:
    The eyes that studies her were level; no hint of judgment escaped them. His entire appearance spoke of quiet within, everything at variance with what she knew must be occurring in him at this moment...
    [exposition not transcribed]
    He put his Mentat talents to the problem. There were missing pieces but that did not stop him. A Mentat could work without certain pieces if he had enough to create a pattern. Sometimes, the sketchiest outline was enough. It supplied the hidden shape and then he could fit the missing pieces to complete a whole.
    Mentats seldom had all the data they might desire, but he was trained to sense patterns, to recognize systems and wholeness. Teg reminded himself now that he had also been trained in the ultimate military sense: You trained a recruit to train a weapon, to aim the weapon correctly.
    [exposition not transcribed]
    Taraza was aiming him. His assessment of their situation had been confirmed.
    Odrade saw Teg suddenly fall into Mentat mode, an unfocused stare in his eyes, his features placid. She saw now part of what Taraza was doing. *The Mentat rides Roman, one foot on each steed. Each foot is based on a different reality as the pattern-search hurtles him forward. He must ride different realities to a single goal*.
    As though projected into his mind and outlined there in fire, he found his entire Mentat-attention fixated on the Zensunni admonition that was taught to every beginning student in the Mentat School: By your belief in granular singularities,
    you deny all movement- evolutionary or devolutionary. Belief fixes a granular universe and causes that universe to persist. Nothing can be allowed to change because that way your non-moving universe vanishes. But it moves of itself when you do not move. It evolves beyond you and is no longer accessible to you. [brief expository interlude] Calling up that old memory created a magical universe where his abilities were amplified beyond his wildest expectations. No atoms existed in that magical universe, only waves and awesome movements all around. He was forced there to discard all barriers built of belief and understanding. This universe was transparent.
    He could see through it without any interfering screens upon which to project forms. The magical universe reduced him to a core of active imagination where his own image-making abilities were the only screen upon which any projection might be sensed.
    There, I am both the performer and the performed!
    The workroom around Teg wavered into and out of his sensory reality. He felt his awareness constricted to its tightest purpose and yet that purpose filled his universe. He was open to infinity.
    The worst potential competition for any organism can come from its own kind. The species consumes necessities. Growth is limited by that necessity which is present in the least amount. The least favorable condition controls the rate of growth. (Law of the Minimum)
    -From "Lessons of Arrakis"
    We are not looking at a new state of matter but at a newly recognized relationship between consciousness and matter, which provides a more penetrating insight into the workings of prescience. The oracle shapes a projected inner universe to produce new external probabilities out of forces that are not understood. There is no need to understand these forces before using them to shape the physical universe. Ancient metal workers had no need to understand the molecular and submolecular complexities of their steel, bronze, copper, gold, and tin. They invented mystical powers to describe the unknown while they continued to operate their forges and wield their hammers.
    -Mother Superior Taraza, Argument in Council
    Fe-Ti PSYCHOLOGY? (Miles Teg)
    Patrin had been the fragile link but Patrin had been well trained in the removal of fragile links, trained by a master- Miles Teg.
    Teg dashes dampness from his eyes with a quick shake of his head. Immediate necessity required that core of internal honesty which he could not avoid.
    Teg had never been a good liar, not even to himself. Quite early in his training, he had realized that his mother and the others involved in his upbringing had conditioned him to a deep sense of personal honesty.
    Adherence to a code of honor.
    The code itself, as he recognized it shape in him, attracted Teg's fascinated attention. It began with the recognition that humans were not created equal, that they possessed different inherited abilities and experienced different events in their lives. This produced people of different accomplishments and different worth.
    To obey this code, Teg realized early that he must place himself accurately into the flow of observable hierarchies accepting that a moment might come when he could evolve no further.
    The code's conditioning went deep. He could never find its ultimate roots. It obviously was attached to something intrinsic to his humanity. It dictated with enormous power the limits of behavior permitted to those above as well as to those below him in the hierarchical pyramid.
    The key token of exchange: loyalty.
    Loyalty went upward and downward, lodging wherever it found a deserving attachment. Such loyalties, Teg knew, were securely locked into him. He felt no doubts that Taraza would support him in everything except a situation demanding that he be sacrificed to the survival of the Sisterhood. And that was right in itself. That was where the loyalties of all of them eventually lodged.
    I am Taraza's Bashar. That is what the code says.
    And this was the code that had killed Patrin.
    I hope you suffered no pain, old friend.
    Si-Ne PSYCHOLOGY? (Duncan Idaho)
    What kind of a universe had come out of the Atreides times? Gammu. What a strange place Giedi Prime had become. Slowly but distinctly, things were being revealed and each new thing opened a view to more that could be learned. He could feel patterns taking shape. One day, he thought, there would be a single pattern and then he would know why they had brought him back from the dead.
    Yes, it was a matter of opening doors, he thought. You opened one door and that let you into a place where there were other doors.
    You chose a door in this new place and examined what that revealed to you. There might be times when you were forced to try all of the doors but the more doors you opened, the more certain you became of which door to open next. Finally, a door would open into a place you recognized. Then you could say: "Ahhhh, this explains everything."
    "Searchers come," Tormsa said. "We are browsing animals now." He reached up to a screeching bush and tore down a small limb.
    Duncan did the same.
    EMBODIED KNOWLEDGE/ Political Philosophy-Administration (Odrade)
    Odrade knew without false pride that she represented the peak of what was strongest in a Reverend Mother. If her personal memories did not provide needed information, she had others around her to fill the gaps. Machine-stored data as well, although she admitted to a native distrust of it. Odrade found herself digging in those other lives she carried as secondary memory--these subterranean layers of awareness. Perhaps she could find brilliant solutions to their predicament in experiences of Others. Dangerous! You could lose yourself for hours, fascinated by the multiplicity of human variations. Better to leave Other Memories balanced in there, ready on demand or intruding out of necessity. Consciousness, that was the fulcrum and her grip on identity. Duncan Idaho's odd Mentat metaphor helped.
    Self-awareness: facing mirrors that pass through the universe, gathering new images on the way--endlessly reflexive. The infinite seen as finite, the analogue of consciousness carrying the sensed bits of infinity.
    She had never heard words come closer to her wordless awareness. "Specialized complexity," Idaho called it. "We gather, assemble, and reflect our systems of order."
    Indeed, it was the Bene Gesserit view that humans were life designed by evolution to create order.
    And how does that help us against these disorderly women who hunt us? What branch of evolution are they? Is evolution just another name for God?
    Her Sisters would sneer at such "bootless speculation."
    Still, there might be answers in Other Memory.
    Ahhhh, how seductive!
    How desperately she wanted to project her beleaguered self into past identities and feel what it had been to live then. The immediate peril of this enticement chilled her. She felt Other Memory crowding the edges of awareness. "It was like this!" "No! It was more like this!" How greedy they were. You had to pick and choose, discreetly animating the past. And was that not the purpose of consciousness, the very essence of being alive?
    Select from the past and match it against the present: Learn the consequences.
    That was the Bene Gesserit view of history, ancient Santayana's words resonating in their lives: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
    The buildings of Central itself, this most powerful of all Bene Gesserit establishments, reflected that attitude wherever Odrade turned. Usiform, that was the commanding concept. Little about any Bene Gesserit working center was allowed to become non-functional, preserved out of nostalgia. The Sisterhood had no need for archeologists. Reverend Mothers embodied history.
    Slowly (much slower than usual) the view out her high window produced its calming effect. What her eyes reported, that was Bene Gesserit order. But Honored Matres could end that order in the next instant. The Sisterhood's situation was far worse than what they had suffered under the Tyrant. Many of the decisions she was forced to make now were odious. Her workroom was less agreeable because of actions taken here.
    Write off our Bene Gesserit Keep on Palma?
    That suggestion was in Bellonda's morning report waiting on the worktable. Odrade fixed an affirmative notation on it. "Yes."
    Write it off because Honored Matre attack is imminent and we cannot defend them or evacuate them.
    Eleven hundred Reverend Mothers and the Fates alone knew how many acolytes, postulants, and others dead or worse because of that one word. Not to mention all of the "Ordinary lives" existing in the Bene Gesserit shadow.
    The strain of such decisions produced a new kind of weariness in Odrade. Was it a weariness of the soul? Did such a thing as a soul
    exist? She felt deep fatigue where consciousness could not probe. Weary, weary, weary.
    ...the Sisterhood did not go in much for admonitory sayings, but Odrade had her own private watchwords: "Someone has to do the plowing." She smiled to herself as she bent to her work much refreshed. This room, this Sisterhood, these were her garden and there were weeds to be removed, seeds to plant. And fertilizer. Mustn't forget the fertilizer.
    As they passed under it, he looked up at the street name burned into the entrance arch. Galach in an elegant script with flowing lines, Bene Gesserit decorative. All streets and buildings were labeled in that same cursive.
    Looking around him at Central, the dancing fountain in the square ahead of them, the elegant details, he sensed a depth of human experience. The Bene Gesserit had made this place supportive in ways he did not quite fathom. Things picked up in studies and orchard excursions, simple things and complex, came to new focus. It was a latent Mentat response but he did not know this, only sensing that his unfailing memory had shifted some relationships and reorganized them. He stopped suddenly and looked back the way they had come--the orchard out there framed in the arch of the covered street. It was all related. Central's effluent produced methane and fertilizer. (He had toured the plant with a Proctor.) Methane ran pumps and powered some of the refrigeration.
    "What are you looking at, Miles?"
    He did not know how to answer. But he remembered an autumn afternoon when Odrade had taken him over Central in a 'thopter to tell him about these relationships and give him "the overview." Only words then but now the words had meaning.
    "As near to a closed ecological circle as we can create," Odrade had said in the 'thopter. "Weather Control's orbiters monitor it and order the flow lines."
    "Why are you standing there looking at the orchard, Miles?" Her voice was full of imperatives against which he had no defenses.
    "In the ornithopter, you said it was beautiful but dangerous."
    They had taken only one 'thopter trip together. She caught the reference immediately. "The ecological circle."
    He turned and looked at her, waiting.
    "Enclosed," she said. "How tempting it is to raise high walls and keep out change. Rot here in our own self-satisfied comfort."
    Her words filled him with disquiet. He felt he had heard them before...some other place with a different woman holding his hand.
    "Enclosures of any kind are a fertile breeding ground for hatred of outsiders," she said. "That produces a bitter harvest."
    Not exactly the same words but the same lesson.
    He walked slowly beside Odrade, his hand sweaty in hers.
    "Why are you so silent, Miles?"
    "You're farmers," he said. "That's really what you Bene Gesserit do."
    She saw immediately what had happened, Mentat training coming out in him without his knowing. Best not explore that yet. "We are concerned about everything that grows, Miles. It was perceptive of you to see this."
    As they parted, she to return to her tower, he to his quarters in the school section, Odrade said: "I will tell your Proctors
    to place more emphasis on subtle uses of power."
    He misunderstood. "I'm already training with lasguns. They say I'm very good."
    "So I've heard. But there are weapons you cannot hold in your hands. You can only hold them in your mind."
    The writing of history is largely a process of diversion. Most historical accounts distract attention from the secret influences behind great events.
    -The Bashar Teg
    But dealing with Murbella required Mentat awareness. He entered every encounter with her not expecting to achieve answers then or later.
    It was a typical Mentat approach: concentrate on the questions. Mentats accumulated questions the way others accumulated answers. Questions created their own patterns and systems. This produced the most important shapes. You looked at your universe through self-created patterns--all composed of images, words, and labels (everything temporary), all mingled in sensory impulses, that reflected off his internal constructs the way light bounced from bright surfaces.
    Idaho's original Mentat instructor had formed the temporary words for that first tentative construct: "Watch for consistent movements against your internal screen."
    From that first hesitant dip into Mentat powers, Idaho could trace the growth of a sensitivity to changes in his own observations, always becoming Mentat.
    Bellonda was his most severe trial. He dreaded her penetrating gaze and slashing questions. Mentat probing Mentat. He met her
    forays delicately, with reserve and patience. Now, what are you after?
    As if he didn't know.
    He wore patience as a mask. But fear came naturally and there was no harm in showing it. Bellonda did not hide her wish to see him dead. Idaho accepted the fact that soon the watchers would see only one possible source for the skills he was forced to use.
    A Mentat's real skills lay in that mental construct they called "the great synthesis." It required a patience that non-Mentats
    did not even imagine possible. Mentat schools defined it as perseverance. You were a primitive tracker, able to read miniscule signs, tiny disturbances in the environment, and follow where these led. At the same time, you remained open to broad motions all around and within. This produced naivete, the basic Mentat posture, akin to that of Truthsayers but far more sweeping.
    "You are open to whatever the universe may do," his first instructor had said. "Your mind is not a computer; it is a response-tool keyed to whatever your senses display."
    Idaho always recognized when Bellonda's senses were open. She stood there, gaze slightly withdrawn, and he knew few
    preconceptions cluttered her mind. His defense lay in her basic flaw: Opening the senses required an idealism that was foreign
    to Bellonda. She did not ask the best questions and he wondered at this. Would Odrade use a flawed Mentat? It went against
    her other performances.
    I seek the questions that form the best images.
    Doing this, you never thought of yourself as clever, that you had the formula to provide the solution. You remained as responsive to new questions as you did to new patterns. Testing, re-testing, shaping and re-shaping. A constant process, never stopping,
    never satisfied. It was your own private pavane, similar to that of other Mentats but it carried always your own unique posture and steps.
    "You are never truly a Mentat. That is why we call it 'The Endless Goal.'" The words of his teachers were burned into his awareness.
    As he accumulated observations of Bellonda, he came to appreciate a viewpoint of those great Mentat Masters who had taught him. "Reverend Mothers do not make the best Mentats."
    No Bene Gesserit appeared capable of completely removing herself from that binding absolute she achieved in the Spice Agony: loyalty to the Sisterhood.
    His teachers had warned against absolutes. They created a serious flaw in a Mentat.
    "Everything you do, everything you sense and say is experiment. No deduction final. Nothing stops until dead and perhaps not even then, because each life creates endless ripples. Induction bounces within and you sensitize yourself to it. Deduction conveys illusions of absolutes. Kick the truth and shatter it!"
    Education is no substitute for intelligence. That elusive quality is defined only in part by puzzle-solving ability.
    It is in the creation of new puzzles reflecting what your senses report that you round out the definition.
     -Mentat Text One (decto)
    BUDDHISM (A Reverend Mother; she is carrying millions of Other Memories from now-dead Sisters, and she is now held captive by the one who ordered their deaths.)
    Please, Sister! the Lampadas horde begged. Endure.
    You think I can escape from this place? That silenced them, except for one faint protest. Remember! We are the ancient
    doll: seven times down, eight times up. It came with a rocking image of a small red doll, grinning Buddha face and hands
    clasped over its fat belly.
    BODY LANGUAGE/ VULTOLOGY (A Reverend Mother)
    Body and speech signals always carried more information than was necessary for comprehension. There was inevitable extra information to be sampled.
    So who asks: What am I?
    Dangerous question. Asking it put her in a universe where nothing was quite human. Nothing matched the undefined
    thing she sought. All around her, clowns, wild animals and puppets reacted to the pull of hidden strings. She sensed the strings that jerked her into movement.
    Odrade continued along the corridor toward the tube that would take her up to her quarters.
    Strings. What came with the egg? We speak glibly of "the mind at its beginning." But what was I before the pressures of living shaped me?
    It wasn't enough to seek something "natural." No "Noble Savage." She had seen plenty of those in her lifetime. The strings jerking them were quite visible to a Bene Gesserit.
    She felt the taskmaster within her. Strong today. It was a force she sometimes disobeyed or avoided. Taskmaster said: "Strengthen your talents. Do not flow gently in the current. Swim! Use it or lose it."
    With a gasping sensation of near panic, she realized she had barely retained her humanity, that she had been on the point of losing it.
    I've been trying too hard to think like an Honored Matre! Manipulating and maneuvering anyone I could. And all in the name of Bene Gesserit survival!
    Bell said there were no limits beyond which the Sisterhood would refuse to go in preserving the Bene Gesserit. A modicum of truth in this boast but it was the truth of all boasting. There were indeed things a Reverend Mother would not do to save the Sisterhood.
    We would not block the Tyrant's Golden Path.
    Survival of humankind took precedence over survival of the Sisterhood. Else our grail of human maturity is meaningless.
    But oh, the perils of leadership in a species so anxious to be told what to do. How little they knew of what they created by their demands. Leaders made mistakes. And those mistakes, amplified by the numbers who followed without questioning, moved inevitably toward great disasters.
    Lemming behavior.
    It was right that her Sisters watched her carefully.

    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I bought this book several days ago and now can't wait to read it!!!
    I will share my thoughts about this subject when I will read it 😛

    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Bumping to say that part of the transcriptions from Chapterhouse: Dune have been added, and to reserve space for more (insert text here) 🙂

    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Pardon me for my lack of initiation on the subject, since I've just watched the Dune 1984 film and it's my only exposure to the topic thus far. I've not yet read the OP in full either, since I'm at a loss with most of the names and references -- and can't yet extract the context/meaning of the quotes without reading the books. But perhaps I can contribute to the thread at least my thoughts on the film adaptation, to the degree that it's representative of Frank Herbert's vision?
    The film begins with a rather long oration of background & context (Si), filled with many names and names below names, and kingdoms with sub-kingdoms.
    The first thing that struck me is that this is not truly a futuristic story, but is a classic imperialistic tale dressed in the mantle of sci-fi. A similar thing is done with Star Wars, where the structure of the story is quite old-fashioned, and future technology is used as a stand-in for magic. But this magic is used selectively in order to address the needs of an archetypal plot.
    Which leads to the second point - that this is an archetypal plot. And more specifically, it's an Fe Savior myth quite down to the letter. Paul, as the Chosen Son of prophecy undergoes a series of obstacles/tests -- through which he learns the truth of what he is. And then he must plunge into the underworld by drinking of the water of life (representing a death/rebirth) to be "awakened" and gain divine powers. It is the same structure as the messiah myth of Christ, with his dearth and resurrection, and so many others including Neo and even Jon Snow.
    After this critical event, his power magnifies to superhuman levels and he leads his people (as a leader - a Hero King) to overtake the rule of the old corrupt government and takes his place upon the throne. To quote the section on the myth of Aler:

    Light: The Savior
    In its light form, the Aler myth manifests as a messiah figure, often appearing as a divinely chosen youth set to fulfill a prophecy. The hero becomes the savior of the people, the protector of mankind and takes his place as the Hero King. He is the champion of justice, an exemplar of “the right way to be” as well as an embodiment of the truth and will of God.

    So the film itself followed an Fe narrative, which perhaps speaks to the type of the author. However, one would be mistaken to take this to mean that the author's type would be best estimated as Fe-lead. Nay, Fe-leads don't spend their time writing stories/narratives of this sort, but actually living out the thing itself. And if they write books they are instructional/coaching books on how to live the best life. This is a key difference I've come to understand.
    Pi narrativism leads naturally to narration. And narration is, for a conductor, about counsel and elucidates on the woes and challenges of the auxiliary (Je) world. NiFe Carl Jung, NiFe George RR Martin and now SiFe Frank Herbert -- seem to be some of the prominent names so far, that abide by this pattern of elaboration and commentary on the actions of actors (Je), as well as their consequences within a wider and vaster global tapestry.
    more thoughts to follow

    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Je + Pi Mythical Archetypes

    I was quite moved by how the Bene Gesserit are depicted. But at the moment I'm less interested in whether it depicts Si or Ni ('knowledge' comes from both), and am instead quite intrigued by another matter: the relationship Je and Pi have in the archetypal plot. To describe this relationship, I'd like to make use of some graphical illustrations across several fictional worlds.
    The King & the Crone

    The relationship between the Mother Superior and the Emperor is one closely allied, with the Reverend Mother Superior acting as a counselor and guide to the king/emperor. The crone (Mother Superior) has psychic abilities and is able to see through the thoughts of the king's enemies, and also is able to give warning to the king about the subterfuge that may be at work. In this sense, the crone is acting as a watchful/wary voice, but also as an eye of deeper psychic insight. This same relationship is echoed in Star Trek with Jean-Luc Picard and Deanna Troi.

    In Star Trek, Deanna Troi is called the ships counselor, which is a prestigious position and she sits always to the side of the ship's captain (King). Deanna Troi is a Betazoid by race; a race that has telepathic powers and which can read/feel the emotions of others. The parallels between Betazoids and Bene Gesserits is strong. In this scenario, Deanna plays the role of the Crone to Picard, informing him of deception that may be at work by reading the emotions of others and sensing when they're lying/etc.

    Next we have King Stannis Baratheon and Melisandre (the Red Priestess) who is a crone. In a similar pattern to the above, the crone provides counsel to the king, and a visionary eye about the fate of his future. We start to see the relationship between the King & the Crone triangulated across these examples -- but also perhaps as it relates to cognition itself; what relationship Je and Pi have to each other.
    Each mythic rendition is slightly different, and in the case of Melisandre she leads her king to death with visions that don't come true. We see also in Dune another relationship of the king/crone in the following:

    Here is Alia Atreides, little sister of Paul (the Hero King). Alia is a kind of divine youth also, considering the circumstances of her birth. But I don't know what becomes of her - wikipedia suggests she becomes hungry for power in the future, so perhaps she is not the most clear Crone archetype. I may have more to say later.
    The relationship between Pi (Crone) and Je (King) is one of yin/yang where the crone plays the feminine role to the king's masculine role -- in the same way Pi is psychologically reactive/responsive and Je is proactive and assertive.
    There is one exception I see to this, which is the masculine version -- the Senex: (spoiler alert for GoT)

    Bran is the three-eyed-raven, and is also a seer/psychic. For the majority of the series his role is feminine in nature, as he takes no action in the fights but is the accumulation of knowledge/wisdom.
    I was initially surprised by George RR Martin's decision to have Bran Stark take the throne at the end of the series (the main plot points of the ending will be the same when his final books release), but not so surprised if we consider his commentary on what precipitates the defeat of kings. The whole show explores this question and, as alluded by Tywin, Wisdom is what it takes to be a good king and none have it more than the three-eyed raven. It's therefore fitting as a social commentary coming from an NiFe author.
    Bran does not stay as a counselor to the king, but instead becomes king. This is unlike the examples above, but I think it's because the senex has some masculine archetypal elements, and so Bran is both King (as the son of a king) and Senex (as the three-eyed-raven). However, he doesn't want the power -- which is itself valuable.
    Mythical stories are flexible in their outcomes, but if they are channeling from the unconscious, their flexibility is within a given range of archetypally true parameters. So I quite like Martin's expression of these themes in his story, and I think they have a kind of validity in their conclusion.
    Whoops I think I went off topic with this post? ..I think I was more broadly addressing the GRRM/Frank Herbert, PiFe discussion. ^^;

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