Dominant Function as Undervalued

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  • #7554
    Faeruss
    Participant
    • Type: FeNi
    • Development: llll
    • Attitude: Directive

    I have copied relevant bits and pieces of several discussions we had yesterday in Discord concerning the role of the dominant function in a person's psyche, especially as it manifests in an undervalued or meh kind of way. I hope we can continue this discussion here more fruitfully, pulling everyone's insights and stories in one place.
     
    Animal:
    i know im SeFi
    but theres a Fi cast that's too deeply embedded in my type
    not Te as much. Te is just there to help me enact my Fi/Se visions and to have the kind of integrity where you "walk the walk" and not just talk the talk
    but on its own i dont really care about it
    i'll just never agree with Pe descriptions ever
    in that way im like you @jelle
    i cant quite see the essence of my first function like..running the show
    faeruss:
    I think that there is a certain meh factor associated to one's dominant
    Gust:
    I feel that
    Animal:
    maybe
    Gust:
    Since only my Ni is conscious, it's that much more perplexing to look inwardly for something to grasp
    faeruss:
    For a very long time I overvalued and wanted Ti, this is when I thought I was Ni dominant. I wanted to be Ti
    Animal:
    but the other Pe leads say they have open-ended life paths etc.
    faeruss:
    so that gives me some pause as to the TiSe assessment
    Animal:
    i wanted to be SeFi as a whole
    i thought it was ideal
    but i never thought i related because ive had a set life path since i was born, never change etc
    don't care for fun or surprises or experience for the sake of it
    but maybe its the Meh factor
    i do think Se is cool and i appreciate my aesthetic/perceptive abilities
    but its like all in the name of self expression, integrity and world view
    faeruss:
    Wants can become problematic in their contribution to an understanding of one's psychology, as so many extra-typological things come into play. Shelley has mentioned wanting to be Ne
    ...
     
    faeruss:
    I do get more P-qualia (not sure that's offical) from you, even with you having two J functions conscious
    Animal:
    ya
    faeruss:
    I wonder if people get more P or J-qualia from me
    Animal:
    thats tough
    youre very balanced
    im wondering why your functions are all conscious so young
    do you know?
    faeruss:
    well it's tough to say hah
    though not more than 3 years ago I was doubly introverted
    be it NiFe or TiSe
    not much Se and definitely no Fe
    Gust:
    would you say you've undergone individuation?
    faeruss:
    yeah, as far as I can see yes
    though not sure we are using the word in the same sense
    Thinking back a bit, I went through a period of my life around 14-18 which I might call a guru stage. I was very zoned out, like this I would say
    https://cognitivetype.net/s/NiFe_Acharya_Rajneesh_1.mp4
    Not sure if TiSes have been know to do that. I would have an "answer" to everything, I don't think there was any revisor doubt in my being at that point. I was immersed in mystical writings and theories, and would write these long abstract poems on Being, God, and shit. I don't seem to remember much in the way of Ti actually, either in my speech or in my writings
    jelle:
    Yeah that seems so N or F like, the poetic stuff. Even your prose you posted before. But maybe my perceptions of those functions are faulty.
     
    You don’t seem super persnickety either. Like it’s there, but it doesn’t seem to dominate. But maybe iz just like that when you have all four conscious.
    faeruss:
    Though I would say that was the case even when I was doubly introverted
    ...
    faeruss:
    it's possible that having done a (pure) math major Ti-ed my brain irreversibly
    Animal:
    hmm
    faeruss:
    if I had stayed in philosophy, who knows
    Animal:
    thats really confusing
    jelle:
    Academic phil is very analytic too haha. You can sort of focus on continental but you can’t do a degree without a hefty serving of analytical phil
    faeruss:
    yeah, and it's the formal logic stuff that sucked me into abstract math
    I pursued it with the passion one might associate with a fetish
    ...
     
    Animal:
    i just wanted to say this here to avoid interrupting the philosophy conversation. about @jelle being kind of "anti Ti" in some ways, and Kat being that way too; and me being "anti Se" in many ways; my father have this kind of archetypal father-daughter relationship where we really affect each other, but it's interesting that i was the one to introduce him to mysticism and make it much harder for him to deny; and although he shows cracks sometimes, he still insists he's a die-hard Athiest , God is "imaginary friend," all mysticism is boring. he says he "cant find his feelings." Auburn saw NiFe and , physically speaking it's hard to refute. He gets all turned on by a good burger, a good song, a cool car; Se stuff. as for me i don't care about that stuff. I'm not into food or cars; i am much more spiritual, albiet aesthetic.

    @faeruss
    | TiSe-Ni this may apply to you too, idk.
    he insists he relates to Trump
    and "get to work" and fixated on whats real
    he doesnt have time or interest in religion, philosophy, typology; his first question is "so what are you gonna do with it?" "is it gonna make money?'
     
    Bera:
    maybe this is because your father uses Ni naturally, like we use Se - so there is no reason for him to see it as something essential and get obsessed with Ni stuff - I say this because I also think Se things are mostly unimportant - Fi and Ni stuff are relevant - and I don't have these functions developed ! but I am interested in these things, not in Se things (though I like Se for the way it is, for bringing optimism and movement and adaptability...but not for what it should be focusing on like fancy cars and burgers lol :)) )
     
    ...
     
    Bera:
    but I think we might tend to focus more on undeveloped functions or on the last function even if it's developed, because people always want what they don't have :))

    #7622
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @faeruss - Basically at the time I first read the Se article I believed I was NeFi of FiNe. Which later on proved to be false. The interesting thing is I read that article and I did not relate to anything about Se from it. I didn't feel any connection between myself and Se and I actually felt moved that there were people (Se users) who were so different from me and I thought I must be more understanding in my relationship to them. :))
    After you guys told me I am actually SeFi, it took me almost a month to accept it and I only did it because vultologically it makes sense and because I do think of myself as highly Pe, so Pe makes sense, Se not so much but I don't toggle. :))
    With Se there might be many, many reasons for not accepting it fully and I mentioned some here and there. It's not a likable function, at least in my opinion. If you write a story, most probably the Se lead will not be the main character or a nice supporting character, he will be the main villain. The antagonist.
    The thing is I do feel a pull in that direction. And it's not as much because of who I am as it is because of people's perception of who I am. I am trying very hard to always keep good intentions. But somehow I can feel this is sometimes misinterpreted in some weird way, like people might think I am doing certain stuff because I want something specific (being an opportunist) and obviously I am doing stuff to obtain other stuff, like everyone else. But then they see something so evil and tainted in my intentions that I am a bit shocked discovering it. I wouldn't think of doing anything truly evil but some people seem to be under the impression that this is my life's purpose. :)) And if you look at it from this perspective, the Se description is tempting. Because if I went all Trickster at least I wouldn't have to wonder why people perceive me as a...not very nice person; I would at least play the part others seem to expect from me.
    Oh, and there is a big part of Se that I don't find wicked but a bit boring and trivial - stuff that doesn't matter and is not even worth discussing. Like Meta pointed out yesterday posting this song :
     

     
    So, despite the wonderful dark potential 🙂 my only temptation to follow Se's lead is the wish to just play the antagonist people literally ASK me to play. It's a way of saying well if you're asking for it, ok. :)) But I'm not that much in exploring Se stuff just for myself.
    This is different from the way I see Ni. I also perceive Ni as potentially dark. In case of Ni though, I feel allured by it. I would like to experience it more for myself, not as a response to society.
    That's why I was saying we might focus more on the last function. I think that that one would be also easier to develop because it's connected to the first and it's somehow completing it. I don't know if you guys came to any conclusion on lines of development, so if statistically usually people tend to develop certain functions first and the other ones later.
     

    #7704
    Thana
    Participant
    • Type: NiTe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I would imagine receiving information from our 1st function would get redundant and mundane. We naturally and reflexively perform (or are) our first function so why dwell on it any further. When I typed at FiSe, I saw Fi as mundane and boring, not worth personally talking about. When I was younger I admired and probably even fetishized Ni and Te (even before encountering typology) because I saw those cognitive functions as just within my grasp but not quite. Ironically enough, I've been correctly typed as NiTe and I've come to realize that I've always used Ni consciously and primarily, and that my Te has been a bit underdeveloped but its getting there and I'm getting better at utilizing it more effectively and naturally. Growing up and even a bit now, I've always felt doubly introverted, Ni and Fi, so therefore I've been juggling between FiSe and NiTe.
    I'm a Ni dominant that's interested in mysticism, the occult, and astrology and my interest in those subjects has intensified over the years, but this wasn't always the case. Though I've always had a nascent interest in mysticism, my interests were always towards the hard sciences, social sciences, and philosophy. I was more into empirically and academically rigorous subjects (though when it came to philosophy, continental > analytical, but I appreciate both). But I honestly don't know what triggered my intense fascination with mysticism. Maybe I wanted to delve into subject matter that better articulates and expands the limits of the perceptions that I already have. In the past, I thought astrology was bunk mainly due to the fact that I didn't quite understand the system. But once I studied my and other people's birthcharts, there were too many specific parallels from my life and theirs that were echoed in those charts for it to be coincidence and confirmation bias. So there's something to it as far as I can tell. Nonetheless, I'd say on average I'm more interested in engaging Te and Se than I am Ni and Fi. I want to ground and manifest my perceptions in concrete reality since only then do they become meaningful and substantiated. I want to leave a lasting mark on my environment and me being stuck in Ni land won't get me there.
    A special mention must go to Se because I'll always be fascinated and mystified by this function. When I try to engage Se, it's highly calculated, unnatural, and awkward. Strong sensory impressions have a strong impact on me and sometimes I need stronger and more impactful sensory stimulation in order for me to get out of my head and into the present moment. At the very least I have an eye for aesthetics from for purely for what something looks like to its symbolic meaning. Strong visual impressions really trigger my Ni and Se and the whole interplay between those polarities.
     
     

    #7721
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Thanatesque - I also think maybe this is one of the reasons some people neglect their first function - maybe we do everything related to our first function naturally, like breathing or walking and because of this we don't even fully notice we are doing these things.
    I am also interested in astrology and I have some basic knowledge about interpreting birth charts. Yes, the correlations between aspects in birth charts and certain predispositions as well as real things that happen in people's lives don't seem to be pure coincidences.
    I also appreciate Se for giving me some aesthetic sense. I think I have pretty good taste but I have no artistic talents.
    Actually a friend who is a psychologist told me I am visually inclined and that it's a shame I didn't try a career where I could use this skill, like one in advertising.
    I think tarot combines Se's appreciation for beauty and Ni's aphoristic tendencies and love of symbols.
    Another thing I noticed is I tend to attract and be surrounded by many talented people. I can't make art myself but I can understand where they are coming from and I am very supportive of them and their life paths, especially since I highly value artistic talent - so, I tend to encourage them to follow their passions and I think they appreciate it.

    #7725
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Wouldn’t a function occurring naturally, like breathing, without any conscious effort make it unconscious?

    #7726
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    This actually makes sense.
    This was just an idea, maybe I'm wrong. 🙂
    What does conscious actually mean?
    I think there might be a misunderstanding here between conscious (as in a conscious function in CT's terms) and conscious (as in a function you are aware of). So, a function could be usually operating by default and could be conscious in CT terms, even if most of the time you are not aware of it.
    And the devaluing could happen exactly because it is a function you are so accustomed with that it poses less challenges compared to your other functions. Which I think would happen to your lead function.
    How do you feel about your Fi?
    Because for me Fi is wonderful and has a bit of a mystical aura, just like Ni. But maybe this is also happening because they are not developed and it could change if they were developed.

    #7730
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    For me Fi is an enormous burden that I cannot control and causes all kinds of problems. It gets in the way of my interests as nothing can get done until Fi is tamed. Some days it’s on the back burner and being a good little kitty and other days it’s tearing my head off. For this reason I always thought it must be part of my shadow or possibly inferior. Se is the same way.
    Ni is the function that feels natural, boring, and always quietly running in the background. It causes me no trouble whatsoever, though I know it can annoy others. Ni is the one I wouldn’t notice much until people pointed it out to me. In fact I was in denial of this part of myself for a long time and even devalued it in others.

    #7745
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Elisa Day, from what you're saying, it looks like you also undervalue Fi, right?
    It gets me into lots of problems too. Especially because it's seelie Fi. 🙂 But looking back at my entire life until now, I think I am quite happy with Fi.
    I also think a good balance between Fi and Se would be pretty useful. Choosing when to be vulnerable and when to be strong. Not that they don't both have strengths and weaknesses. But I think Se is perceived as more strong and Fi - at least seelie Fi - as more vulnerable.
    When I was younger, I felt very weak. I couldn't make myself heard, couldn't convince others of my views or even express them, as I always feared not hurting other people. And this used to drive me crazy, I really hated it. And I can't really do that well enough yet, as Te is still not developed and because seeliness will probably never go away :)) but at least I don't get stuck in situations, pondering for months what would be the right thing to do. Or stuck in certain emotional patterns. I think Fi became more of a filter and Se more of a search machine for alternative paths, which contributes to a greater cheerfulness, that many people notice, but also maybe to not always working things out thoroughly. :/
    Anyway, I always felt Fi, even though I didn't have a name for it. Same with Ni, I think.
    How can Ni be boring? 🙂

    #7748
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera, IMO I don’t value or have conscious Fi at all. It makes the most sense to me to continue to think of it as part of my shadow.

    #7750
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    Animal:
    i just wanted to say this here to avoid interrupting the philosophy conversation. about @jelle being kind of “anti Ti” in some ways, and Kat being that way too; and me being “anti Se” in many ways; my father have this kind of archetypal father-daughter relationship where we really affect each other, but it’s interesting that i was the one to introduce him to mysticism and make it much harder for him to deny; and although he shows cracks sometimes, he still insists he’s a die-hard Athiest , God is “imaginary friend,” all mysticism is boring. he says he “cant find his feelings.” Auburn saw NiFe and , physically speaking it’s hard to refute. He gets all turned on by a good burger, a good song, a cool car; Se stuff. as for me i don’t care about that stuff. I’m not into food or cars; i am much more spiritual, albiet aesthetic.

    @faeruss
     | TiSe-Ni this may apply to you too, idk.
    he insists he relates to Trump
    and “get to work” and fixated on whats real
    he doesnt have time or interest in religion, philosophy, typology; his first question is “so what are you gonna do with it?” “is it gonna make money?’

     
    I think it is completely okay for Dominant Function to either undervalued or valued accordingly.
    I have tried to explain this way of looking at ego fixation before yet it didn't get much of a response.
    As TiSe-Ni You be a Compass of the Ni realm of conscientiousness. In short Ji of the Ni realm. In a nutshell TiSe brain with a Ni mind.
    As SeFi-Fi You'd be a Explorer of the Fi realm of conscientiousness. In short Pe of the Fi realm. In a nutshell SeFi brain with a Fi mind.
    As SeFi-Ni You'd be Explorer of the Ni realm of conscientiousness. In short Pe of the Ni realm. In a nutshell SeFi brain with a Ni mind.
    As NiTe-Ni You'd be Mapper of the Ni realm of conscientiousness. In short Pi of the Ni realm. In a nutshell NiTe brain with a Ni mind.
    As FiSe-Xx You'd be Compass of the N/A realm of conscientiousness. In short Ji of the Xx realm. In a nutshell FiSe brain with a N/A mind.
    I wonder if this way of prioritizing how we look at type would lead to richer usability of CT. If we attack our task based on how mind works before we base it on how the brain works. For me as a SeTi-Ni I know I gather new information more anything else, yet it all goes back to the how the overall map or model is configured.

    #7756
    Septimus Rosa Chalier
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Hi. 🙂

    @elisaday
    , perhaps in your case it's less the function itself that arouses your distress than an incompatibility between the very process of information treatment by which Fi operates and the world we live in - indifferent to/devaluing this kind of process.
    It might be a factor to take into account: what we're inclined to think of a function (and its associated themes) is also partly conditioned by the specific demands of our environment.
    So, in your case, maybe it's more a "contextual relevance" issue than a problem tied to the mobilization/use of the function or a lack of interest in it.
    This leads me to make a (potential) distinction between two sorts of undervaluation:
    1) An undervaluation tied to the first function's felt ''triviality''. (Here, the first function can fall into the background and is not seen as a burden).
    2) An undervaluation tied to the first function's felt ''inadequacy''. (Here, the first function can't fall into the background and is seen as a burden, because the more the dominant function of a given subject will be ineffective in a given environment, the less he'll be able to ''forget'' that function and the resulting pain.)
    Note: Strong Fi users might have more difficulty than others in ''forgetting'' their first function (i.e. will have more trouble than others to remain indifferent to its functioning and the associated issues) – due to the fact that the use of Fi implies a permanent stimulation of the emotional register.

    #7757
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    “due to the fact that the use of Fi implies a permanent stimulation of the emotional register.“

    Is that true? It doesn’t really feel like that for me. Most of the time I’m pretty indifferent and “blah” to things. It takes quite a lot to offend me and one of my most common feedbacks is I’m infinitely patient and way too tolerant of others.
    Emotions do occasionally come up in overwhelming tidal waves that pummel me down halting productivity and shutting down the assembly lines tho. Sometimes completely forgetting how to feel gets me into the most trouble. My unconscious side is cold, robotic, and ruthless. It actually sounds like the unhealthy part of the Fi description which is the part that resonates most. The rest of the description actually sounds like other people I know. So much of my environment is filled up with that Fi description I can’t imagine it being undervalued in others. Maybe that’s me projecting (my shadow?). Maybe I’ve had unhealthy Fi all my life.  That’s extremely possible. I’ve always attempted to adapt to this Fi mentality I experienced around me because I thought it would make me “cool,” but always felt I fell short. Perhaps that’s the inadequacy thing you were referring to.

    #7759
    Septimus Rosa Chalier
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: l---
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    @elisaday, do you reject things or are you indifferent to them? And what do you mean by ''cold, robotic and ruthless''? I knew someone with this ''completely forgetting how to feel'' and that "way too tolerant" side. She would drown in the feelings of others, then a wave of ''i don't know how i feel'' would hit her... (I think there is a similar description in the ''attitude of the heart'' (or ''Fi''?) article). But I don't know if you relate to this...

    #7760
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    I have tried to explain this way of looking at ego fixation before yet it didn’t get much of a response.
    As TiSe-Ni You be a Compass of the Ni realm of conscientiousness. In short Ji of the Ni realm. In a nutshell TiSe brain with a Ni mind.
    As SeFi-Fi You’d be a Explorer of the Fi realm of conscientiousness. In short Pe of the Fi realm. In a nutshell SeFi brain with a Fi mind.
    As SeFi-Ni You’d be Explorer of the Ni realm of conscientiousness. In short Pe of the Ni realm. In a nutshell SeFi brain with a Ni mind.
    As NiTe-Ni You’d be Mapper of the Ni realm of conscientiousness. In short Pi of the Ni realm. In a nutshell NiTe brain with a Ni mind.
    As FiSe-Xx You’d be Compass of the N/A realm of conscientiousness. In short Ji of the Xx realm. In a nutshell FiSe brain with a N/A mind.

     
    @EpicKalypze
    I think this is absolutely essential and explains everything.
    I have a lot to say on this topic, because I'm SeFi with Ni ego, and my father is NiFe with Se ego.  His Se is developed. My Ni is versatile, and shows up a little, but not yet fully conscious.
    The basic implication is that he values being a realist, and doesn't care about that which isn't evident to the senses; yet he picks up all the underlying trends in the world and can articulate them with tremendous depth.
    I value spirituality, cosmic rhythm and the underlying trends in the world, but I pick them up kinetically and experientially, by being part of movements (whether it be online or irl) and extrapolating trends correctly from the patterns that occur thereof.
    I learn kinetically, by being 'immersed' in the rhythm of the world, he learns more through observation and collecting information. At the same time, both of us equally value information that we experience with our own eyes. For instance he is not the type to get caught up on academic bullshit that he hasn't experienced himself; he always sees trends as they apply to reality that he has personally experienced.
    For Se/Ni, there's a sense of 'as above, so below.'  What occurs here, is a pattern; and that same pattern occurs 'out there' - in another culture, another species, another dimension etc, ad nauseum. My father has more nuance in breaking down the trends whereas I have more nuance in being a vessel through which they emerge - representing them moment to moment through clothes, music, anecdotal stories like fiction writing and characters; "showing" not  telling.  My father can "tell you" how it works with tremendous nuance, and I can show you with tremendous nuance.  Yet he values doing & producing & creating, and I value the observation and contemplation of underlying trends, and applying them in a more cosmic/spiritual way.

    #7776
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Eliza Day - so, you think you are not typed right? Or do you think you are FiSe but for some reason Fi doesn't feel conscious?
    I can't relate to what you said about being cold and robotic and it's even more confusing because you are a seelie Fi user and Fi lead.
    I relate to what @Septimus Rosa Chalier said - I feel very strong emotions almost all the time. VERY STRONG ! I do act in a placid way at times, but I am almost never indifferent to what is happening.
    Also, feeling cold is highly unusual to me...if you mean cold like calm, neutral - I almost never feel that way. I am usually cheerful (which I think is warm), but with lots of variations during the day, from ecstasy to despair and again to ecstasy. It's somewhat like the heart beats showing on a monitor, the ups and downs <3 .. but the middle - the general starting and returning point - is one of enjoyment of life, often stirred by little bursts of fun.
    I feel this is warm - not hot, not burning the world to the ground :)) - but also not cold. This is my default state and then emotions go up and down and up and down constantly. I think it's consistent with being SeFi.
    I don't think you had unhealthy Fi all your life. But what you say does sound very different from what I experience. Maybe you really use Fi primarily in order to filter things and keep them at a certain distance from you? And maybe a LOT of them just remain outside of your reach, so there is not much more left to feel because you put a wall between you and the main feeling triggers? I mean, I do this too, but I still have a lot of very strong emotions. But maybe you do it even more and you managed to somehow push everything far enough to counter the Fi permeability and hypersensitivity??
    Also, there is a part of the Fi article called Alexithymia and dissociation. Maybe this is what's happening?
    @EpicKalypze - interesting ! I do feel like an explorer of the Fi realm. More than an explorer of the world, generally. SeFi brain with an Fi mind, yes, that certainly feels right.

    @Animal
    - exactly, I also value spirituality...but I don't know if I learn through movement. I also collect information and learn things from books. It's hard to say if I learn more from direct experience, I could agree but I'm not sure. You mean you learn things by doing them? Because I can agree with that, but not completely, since I learned many things just by reading about them. Can you expand on this idea? Or give more examples?

    #7787
    Elisa Day
    Participant
    • Type: TiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera I think my main beef is with the terms “conscious” and “valued” and how they are being used here, but I think I may have it straightened out. Jung says our dominant function is always conscious and our inferior cannot become conscious.
    Socionics says our first and second functions are valued, conscious, and represent our ego which is how we see ourselves. Our superego functions are also conscious, but they are not valued, and it represents how others tend to perceive us until they get to know us well. The ID is strong but unconscious and unvalued. This would be the Jungian shadow.
    CT seems to work entirely differently and I’m more interested in cracking the code than talking about emotions and feelings right now. My apologies for not answering your guys’ questions, but I thought about it all day and couldn’t find a satisfactory way to word what I was thinking. How I perceive myself may have nothing to do with how I actually am anyway.

    #7801
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Elisa Day - what you said is very interesting, I didn't know.
    From what I understood, CT says that :

    • the first function is almost always conscious (except for unusual situations - I'm not sure what this means);
    • any other functions can also be developed and become conscious.

    I don't really know how this works, what you have to do to develop them (and this is actually the most relevant thing :)) ). I'm not sure if it was explained anywhere but I will try some experimental approaches with Ni and Te. 🙂 This is basically why I joined this forum, I wanted to develop functions. :))
     
     

    #7821
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    I think this is absolutely essential and explains everything.
    I have a lot to say on this topic, because I’m SeFi with Ni ego, and my father is NiFe with Se ego.  His Se is developed. My Ni is versatile, and shows up a little, but not yet fully conscious.
    The basic implication is that he values being a realist, and doesn’t care about that which isn’t evident to the senses; yet he picks up all the underlying trends in the world and can articulate them with tremendous depth.
    I value spirituality, cosmic rhythm and the underlying trends in the world, but I pick them up kinetically and experientially, by being part of movements (whether it be online or irl) and extrapolating trends correctly from the patterns that occur thereof.
    I learn kinetically, by being ‘immersed’ in the rhythm of the world, he learns more through observation and collecting information. At the same time, both of us equally value information that we experience with our own eyes. For instance he is not the type to get caught up on academic bullshit that he hasn’t experienced himself; he always sees trends as they apply to reality that he has personally experienced.
    For Se/Ni, there’s a sense of ‘as above, so below.’  What occurs here, is a pattern; and that same pattern occurs ‘out there’ – in another culture, another species, another dimension etc, ad nauseum. My father has more nuance in breaking down the trends whereas I have more nuance in being a vessel through which they emerge – representing them moment to moment through clothes, music, anecdotal stories like fiction writing and characters; “showing” not  telling.  My father can “tell you” how it works with tremendous nuance, and I can show you with tremendous nuance.  Yet he values doing & producing & creating, and I value the observation and contemplation of underlying trends, and applying them in a more cosmic/spiritual way.


    @animal
    This is almost like a personal deja vu. I really resonate with a lot of your above, especially what I highlighted. Even this Ego-Mind-Realm concept feels like an underlying trend. It just felt like something more along the lines of free-will that had to fit somewhere this new wave of objective human nature. In a dualistic way this is like the little bit of liberalism that naturally fit into the majority of this determinism.
    Believing that my roommate NiFe-Se; I have to say this guy is diligently knowledgeable in so many matters of indulgences. For him there is a fine tune way to live life. For me it's like I most discover the most unifying essential truth before death. I would not follow his path because well it's a path of luxury, money, women, and statics which I think so many others have already done before; plus it would be digressive of my development to becoming my deepest and true-ist self. He would not follow my path because purifying intentions as to why and how you go about something is too vague for his patients; and he's not interested in becoming something that citizens of tomorrow's era may decide to one day embody: such as prioritizing passive income and decentralized currency OVER active income and centralized currency; having legally customized marriages with a high degree varieties; acting as if death and life are one in the same; focusing on the mastery of cognitive attributes over trade skills.
    I tend to understandingly observe something, striving to reach it's most deepest sensational layer. Once I feel I have it's energetic signature I will reserve engineer it to get a mirrored response from others. Example 1: I really like to fuck with free AI in the most incognito way possible. Example 2: I outline my ideas for video game concepts: The first was about Pick Up Artistry where your playable character complements, insults, touches, lies, empathizes, and discloses actual truths all in the span of 5 seconds after saying "Ah you" to a girl on the street.  I guess that's how I would describe "value the observation and contemplation of underlying trends, and applying them in a more cosmic/spiritual way".
     

    #7942
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    @epickalypze – interesting ! I do feel like an explorer of the Fi realm. More than an explorer of the world, generally. SeFi brain with an Fi mind, yes, that certainly feels right.


    @bera
    - Thank you, I hope this perspective serve you well!

    I don’t really know how this works, what you have to do to develop them (and this is actually the most relevant thing :)) ). I’m not sure if it was explained anywhere but I will try some experimental approaches with Ni and Te.   This is basically why I joined this forum, I wanted to develop functions. :))

    Be careful daring

    • You may not comeback to be the same as what those closest to remember you to be.
    • There could still be plenty of growth to be had even as a l---.
    • So long as you get results that are better for you than an llll that should be all that manners
    • I see l--- as a force of concentrated purity.
    • As an SeJi ll-l there has been many times where I wish I could just do something without thinking about it to oblivion
    • SeJi l--- are some of the most lively people in the world and SeJi ll-l will rarely have it and mostly seem to fake it.
    • I find myself trying be like a SeJi l--- every now and again for sake of inner freedom, yet if I tried to explain the process to a SeJi l--- it could just be weirdist shit they ever heard of.

    Yet it is up to you. So for your careful consideration here are some pages below.

    8 Development Levels

    Self-Improvement and Self-Mastery

    #7958
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @epicKalypze - thank you ! I never thought about it like that. I was just thinking - so many functions, let's develop them all !!! (what does this button do? :)) )
    You are right though. I am functioning pretty well. I get along with most people and I am almost always in a good mood. People at work appreciate me. I have a good relationship with my parents and my friends.
    My only issues are that I am working too much and that I feel I could be doing more awesome things with my time. Sometimes I feel that I could really make a difference in the world and not just over work for a company. Also, I feel more and more drawn to the idea to build my own business and I'm not sure I could organize well enough with my I--- development level. Maybe more Te would help...but would a person with Te completely developed still be me?
    This is why I started to lean more towards Ni. I feel that with Ni developed, I would just become a more sophisticated version of myself. Not like...someone completely different, as I feel with Te.
    But then again, the idea of having a complex and well thought out world view also doesn't feel completely right to me. How can I know that world view is right and not pure make believe?? Right now I am open to many ideas but if I had a developed world view, maybe I would simply exclude a chunk of them that wouldn't match it, right? Is this really...profitable for myself? :))
    I mean, I am in a point in which if I started handling my work issues better, my life would be pretty cool. Maybe it would be wiser to focus on work and how to develop better skills there without specifically thinking so much about developing functions.
    I resonate with the last paragraph of the second article when I think about Te - it still feels as if Te wasn't truly me, but I also started to genuinely enjoy some Te activities. Friday I had a meeting with two lawyers we are working with and every time we meet we are all very friendly and have this wonderful understanding and flow. It was the same this time...and at some point I just ran out the meeting room to my office and bring my dated notebook to take notes in it and I got very excited about the beautiful red covers and showed them the lawyers the red covers and we all got super excited about notebooks with red covers. :)) Last year I would have rolled my eyes at this scene but now I like to have everything better organized. (well, one reason could be that I am starting to have more meetings and couldn't keep track of them without a notebook and that for some reason I don't like apps that do the same thing, they don't feel like the real deal to me :))) ).
    I noticed @ShelleyLorraine also loves dated notebooks (planners or what is the right word ? 🙂 ) and organizing activities in them, maybe this is because of Pe & Te working together ? By the way, I loved your ideas on how to organize your activities, Shelley, I think I will copy some of them. <3
    I can't @ her. Why can't I? :)) Oh, well.

    #7975
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, this reminded me of a song :
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaQv9wC9UY
    🙂

    #8196
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    @Bera - Love your reply... in good way it reminds me of how all over the place I can be myself.
    Without further ado its time for good old Ti nitpicking?
    Ni- finished
    You mentioned Models and sophistication with use of Ni. I think Reviser might use Ni differently than Conductors. Conductors JePi and PiJe seem to have complex models with Ni and Si. JePi(s) seem to move people in and out their model. PiJe(s) seem to have it there as support.  For myself as a Reviser Ni user I seem to keep moving from one model to another even combining a little bit of this with little bit of that. I may write something out that is very Ni heavy and than have someone debunk some aspects about it. Once they debunk it... the only thing I see is how to rephrase it in order to accommodate each perceived error EVEN better yet; find out what general sense of bais the debunker is coming from and rephrase it in order to make so that they are wrong if I am wrong. In a way Reviser - Pi feels like aikido or jiu jitsu... to me at least. Lastly it comes as a accidental spontaneous kind of sophistication.
    Your wondering about weather you will be still be in the real world... is something I might be able to learn from an SeJi i--- as oppose to giving likely false advise toward(not that you asked). As for myself either I am at a level of reality that has surpass the physical, cultural, and social or I am totally nuts. To make things even more confusing I may go back and forth through these extremes in order to arrive at a reality surpass the concept of "I" and stuff-???  And now I'm sure you kind of get the point so be careful.
    One more thing Conductor - Ni may stick to a set way of doing something; where as Reviser might offer a semi-set-way and make slight alterations each time.
    Te - unfinished - please don't read!!!
    I wonder what I could have you try out when it comes to pushing your Te buttons. However, I will admit I am having a confusing time with positioning Te in relation to myself simply as a SeTi-Xx lxxx. Te; along with the behaviors, motives, and natural gifts associated with enneagram number ONE. Te and ONE seem to me to be very similar and I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only one who thought so. Firstly, I take the side of blaming parental/environmental nurture for enneagram, ego fixation, and development (Mind). Secondly, I take the side of blaming genetic nature for the "order of ones cognitive functions" (Brain). I once had mini addiction to Ben Sharpio's political videos. During which I found a lot of his qualities show up in myself as I handled whatever I perceived to be unfairness. After seeing that Ben was judged to be TeNi-Se (at one point on this website) it became even harder to separate Extroverted Thinking from Enneagram One's mythology. In short: I suspect my relations to ONE because as child I perceived the rules and disciplines offered by my single parent to be unfair in comparison to what was offered to my peers; indeed it could have been worst, yet that was what I perceived at as a child and that was what partially made up who I am as an adult. To make things more complected.... to be cont.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    footnotes
    Critical Parent: Here where things get asymmetrical. I feel like I need to be very careful about how I go about what I'd like to say here. I will start with Critical Parent. This involves Socionics something I suck at; don't want get into; and don't recommend new comers look into until they have gotten very familiar with CT, which seems to much more digestible for me at least. If anyone were to ask me question about it... well... awkward! Now Te is suppose to be my Critical Parent. My eight cognitive function order stack is as follows; Se, Ti, Fe, Ni, Si, Te, Fi, Ne.  Functions 5, 6, 7, and 8 it is the area of what others call of shadow, unconscious, inactive, or low emission. I might call the 6th function: shadow, unconscious, active, and high emission. As you can see Te for me is in place number 6. How it seems to show up? Good question. In a crap way of describing... it is suppose to show up in the middle of my conscious manipulation of my first four functions doing Te like things such as: linguistics, error checking, and alignings all by it self. Although I am not completely sure it is there I sometimes feel that it must be doing something.
     
     

    #8210
    Tea
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Epic, I think you've made an important distinction between conductors and revisors. It's said that Ne looks at many theories while Ni sticks to one and continues to doubt it. But I think we can apply that to Pe v Pi as well.
    I very much resonate with your approach. I take the important principles from theories and shape mine. I think I would react the same under criticism, not scraping the whole thing entirely but repositioning some of the architecture. For me (Ne) that generally involves making a finer distinction.
    I can see when SeTi are choosing the most promising course because something has to be done. This is when you see the mid brow raise I was talking about with Tobes. He said he uses it when he's about to BS, but I think it's more than that. It's also abut rejecting a competing line of information in the absence of absolute certainty, and sometimes that's out of sheer need.

    #8228
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    @Tea, I must say it is comforting to read about experience of "architectural flexibility" from another PeJi l--l.
    I had read that last segment, about SeTi, a few time more than the ones above. All of that is fairly accurate. I don't know if I can speak for most SeTi; I like choosing the singular course that seems to be hidden from what's within plane view; I have this hunger to get the edge and think from in early adaptive perspective. Example: NiFe-Se says "yeah we can totally profit from a bitcoin miner" SeTi-Ni "Bro all the big corporate white collars have regular bitcoin under control. So we'd have to think about where cryptocurrency is trending next; then we must foresee the initial cracks that only the small guys can fit through in order to make real a profit."
    Se and options: I'll see one way to do something. Try it. Then at that initial motion of starting one or two more alterations of the overall action comes into visualization. In a nutshell options may come to us in a serial motion of events.
    Need for absolute certainty: I get where coming from. Less sure about this than anything else. 1: It might not need to be said, but this need sounds like Se or Si with little to no preference for Ni or Ne respectively. 2: Sounds like Enneagram 8, which I wouldn't be surprised if they always had little preference for N. 3: It wasn't to I got to my late 20s did I have the "bottom line" plus "walk with no talk" as backup weapon for almost any scenario among envy driven passerbys and wannabes. In a nutshell ?? IDK... IDK why I even referenced it... IDK

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