Do you get Bored Easily? Would you get Bored Alone in a White Room?

[Hrafn]

@ hrafn – this is fascinating ! I think it is because you are SiFe !  Now that you mentioned it…I do have internal sensations too…like hunger or headache, feeling tired or energized…indeed, they are internal and I didn’t even think of them when I wrote about sensations. But do you see why?? I think it’s because you are more attuned to internal sensations, being Si lead ! And I am focused on the ones that are caused by external stimuli, being Se lead !

@bera Yes!! that's what I've always thought; it seems to align with my experience, and some other typology stuff has agreed with this. I'm curious, now that you're thinking more about the topic of internal sensations, do you find yourself very attuned to them? Do you experience them as different, in quality, from more external senses?
I should say that as far as I know, my view on this isn't an official part of how CT sees Si. In CT, as far as I know, Pi gets all incoming sensory information from Pe, except the sight involved in memory recall...I find this view a bit confusing & problematic, but I could easily just not understand the theory too well. Yet at the very least, I still feel the relationship of Si to sensory information--however it recieves that--is underexplored.
I haven't read Jung too extensively, but the passages I've read from his desrcriptions of Si actually really comes to life for me. Like that Si is

“[...] guided by the intensity of the subjective sensation excited by the objective stimulus, but one that is apparently quite unpredictable and arbitrary. What will make an impression and what will not can never be seen in advance, and from the outside.”

But my view on this topic has developed quite a bit and it's actually fairly nuanced. Sometime I'll try to explain it in more detail. The complicated thing is that I've known some Si leads who seemed fairly sensorily oblivious, in general. Like my dad...there's a slim chance he might be NeFi or TeSi, but I'm pretty sure he's SiTe. He's talked about feeling generally out of touch with his senses, and he doesn't seem as fussy about some of those sort of things as I can be. But I've also known other high-Si types who have been very in touch with their internal senses. By the same token, I've also known Fi leads who aren't very in touch with their own emotions--they simply aren't oriented toward attending to them.
Why is this? With Fi, we know it's because emotions aren't necessarily the be-all/end-all of the function. They serve the analytic purpose of getting toward the ethical truth. Similarly, I think that internal sensation isn't always the be-all/end-all of Si. In a lot of situations it's more like the means by which Si users gets in touch with their memories. So just as many Fi users can gloss over the emotional pinging of their analytic process to focus on, say, the end result of solving a math problem, an Si user might gloss over the sensory aspect of their synthetic process if they were, say, writing a boring report.
In the metabolism article, it says Ne/Si users have an "impressionistic" memory, and I think this is quite true. But even though impressions are generally fuzzy on some of the details, they still have to have a kind of evocative power in order to stick, and I think this evocative aspect relates to the internal sensation thing. Sometime soon, when I have more time, I've been wanting to write a bit more about some of my own experiences with Si...
Here's how Jung described this idea:

Sensation, which by its very nature is dependent on the object and on objective stimuli, undergoes considerable modification in the introverted attitude. It, too, has a subjective factor, for besides the sensed object there is a sensing subject who adds his subjective disposition to the objective stimulus. In the introverted attitude sensation is based predominantly on the subjective component of perception. What I mean by this is best illustrated by works of art which reproduce external objects. If, for instance, several painters were to paint the same landscape, each trying to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will be different from the others, not merely because of differences in ability, but chiefly because of different ways of seeing; indeed, in some of the paintings there will be a distinct psychic difference in mood and the treatment of colour and form. [...] The subjective factor in sensation is essentially the same as in the other functions we have discussed. It is an unconscious disposition which alters the sense-perception at its source, thus depriving it of the character of a purely objective influence. [...] How extraordinarily strong the subjective factor can be is shown most clearly in art. Its predominance sometimes amounts to a complete suppression of the object’s influence, and yet the sensation remains sensation even though it has become a perception of the subjective factor and the object has sunk to the level of a mere stimulus. (Psychological Types p. 550)

 
 

[Bera]

@hrafn - I usually don't have very intense internal sensations and I also don't feel like they are persistent and have a narrative quality. But I am...quite detached from my sensations generally, I don't get that caught up in the externally caused ones either. I am mostly caught in thoughts and/or absent minded. Sometimes I have little blobs of complete silence when I don't even think about anything at all and I am also completely dissociated from what is happening outside. Are these the Ni zone outs or do Ni people actually think when they are zoning out ?? But my Ni is not developed, so, no idea where they are coming from.
I eagerly absorb imagery and sounds though. I also like some foods but...everyone does and I am really very simple, I don't feel a lot of complicated food cravings.
About internal sensations...I think they are rarely good ones, right? When you feel something different from the usual, which is also internal, it generally is pain or some sort of discomfort. At least something like hunger, thirst, being tired. If everything is going perfectly, I generally don't feel any internal sensation. They come like warning signs that something needs to be adjusted. So, my attitude towards them is to try to make them stop as soon as possible or - if they are not very intense - I try to ignore them and keep going. I am annoyed by them and quite unmerciful with my body. It feels like I have a sort of mind - body split and I feel like my body is pulling me back and stopping me from having fun and learning stuff and being active. I am 9 in enneagram and I read this might make you wish you had no body. I wouldn't say that, because that would mean I'd wish to be dead, which I obviously don't, I love life...but some of these internal sensations make me feel angry that I have a body that's keeping me from enjoying life. Which is ironic, since I couldn't enjoy life without it. 🙂
Then I also have moments when I get overwhelmed with empathy for my body, all the stress and sleep deprivation and bad eating habits and tons of coffee and sitting in front of a computer for 12 hours / day is exerting all this weight upon me and the best I can do is listen to ASMR videos or dance (and I am bad dancer) :))) But I usually drink beer, smoke and talk to you guys. Umbi suggested meditation and I must do this more often !

In CT, as far as I know, Pi gets all incoming sensory information from Pe, except the sight involved in memory recall…I find this view a bit confusing & problematic, but I could easily just not understand the theory too well. Yet at the very least, I still feel the relationship of Si to sensory information–however it recieves that–is underexplored.

But other sensory information also triggers memory recall. I think this was mentioned before somewhere - I can't remeber in which thread though.

No sooner had the warm liquid mixed with the crumbs touched my palate than a shudder ran through me and I stopped, intent upon the extraordinary thing that was happening to me. An exquisite pleasure had invaded my senses, something isolated, detached, with no suggestion of its origin. And at once the vicissitudes of life had become indifferent to me, its disasters innocuous, its brevity illusory – this new sensation having had on me the effect which love has of filling me with a precious essence; or rather this essence was not in me it was me. ... Whence did it come? What did it mean? How could I seize and apprehend it? ... And suddenly the memory revealed itself. The taste was that of the little piece of madeleine which on Sunday mornings at Combray (because on those mornings I did not go out before mass), when I went to say good morning to her in her bedroom, my aunt Léonie used to give me, dipping it first in her own cup of tea or tisane. The sight of the little madeleine had recalled nothing to my mind before I tasted it. And all from my cup of tea.
— Marcel Proust, In Search of Lost Time

I didn't read the books; I always thought I should, I love nostalgia, no idea why. Oh, dear, I have a craving for an onion soup now, maybe because this is a French dish and I quoted Proust and maybe because when I was a kid I used to eat a wonderful onion soup with my parents at a traditional restaurant...it was so good, the best soup ever and the melted cheese was heavenly !!!
Sometimes I wonder if being a seelie socialite shade (if this indeed is my shade) makes me feel more like the people I am talking to. :)))
And this is the best place to move to your observations about Fi. You said :

By the same token, I’ve also known Fi leads who aren’t very in touch with their own emotions–they simply aren’t oriented toward attending to them.
Why is this? With Fi, we know it’s because emotions aren’t necessarily the be-all/end-all of the function. They serve the analytic purpose of getting toward the ethical truth.

I am generally in touch with my emotions. But under specific influence, I can detach from them and produce more accurate depictions of the Truth. It happened to me a couple of times and it's very interesting. There is this internal focus and emotions are being held away and only acknowledged but not experienced. My mind becomes calmer and I can see inside better. This makes discerning between right and wrong much easier. I think of it like being in the eye of the tornado.
I believe this is actually the most effective way to use Fi.

If, for instance, several painters were to paint the same landscape, each trying to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will be different from the others, not merely because of differences in ability, but chiefly because of different ways of seeing; indeed, in some of the paintings there will be a distinct psychic difference in mood and the treatment of colour and form.

This reminds me of impressionism. The same environment depicted in a different way. It also had much to do with how the light fell on different objects. What was depicted were the objects but also the light movements on them. And the same object in the same environment can be depicted in many different ways depending on the time of day and on how the lights and shadows play on and around it. You don't only see the images but also feel a certain warmth in them because what you see are not only the objects themselves but also the light on them and the way it gets reflected back from their surface or the way it embraces or wanders around them. But behind it all there is the perception of the artist. How he saw the objects and the light moving on them. There is a certain level of subjectivity but the result is somehow closer to reality than a completely realistic depiction of it !

[Rua]

@ Bera

I am generally in touch with my emotions. But under specific influence, I can detach from them and produce more accurate depictions of the Truth. It happened to me a couple of times and it’s very interesting. There is this internal focus and emotions are being held away and only acknowledged but not experienced. My mind becomes calmer and I can see inside better. This makes discerning between right and wrong much easier. I think of it like being in the eye of the tornado.
I believe this is actually the most effective way to use Fi.

Thank you for posting this. I was uncertain whether this state belonged to Ti or Ji but this has made things much clearer for me. This state is indeed extremely useful and interesting. I think of Ji as the ultimate crisis survival function for its ability to "remove yourself from the equation" by being so in-tune with yourself you no longer have to feel or think, you merely act from pure instinct following from what you know in your bones to be right.
I was attempting to describe this state of emotionless clarity in a short story (there is direct context in the story that ties into the language but I still feel it functions in isolation here) and this is what I came up with:
"The mind that holds the constellations falls to earth. The insect hum is gone, its fears and static
misgivings. In its place is a stillness so keenly balanced with tension one cannot feel a single thing but clarity."

[Hrafn]

You know, after I wrote that thing yesterday, I had an experience that reminded me of where I'd gotten the idea about the internal senses and memory recall. I was trying to remember a name, or something like that. I could almost, almost remember it, but I couldn't quite bring it into my mind's eye. And in that moment, I re-experienced that there's a particular somatic quality about almost remembering something. It's like I'm feeling all of the internal experience associated with "seeing" that information, but I just can't quite bring the information into clear focus.
Another time when I've often noticed this is when I'm just waking up and can still remember a dream. But as I come into full wakefulness, my mind gets drawn into waking experience, and I try to look back but can't quite see the dream anymore. It's like it's just receded over the horizon, but is still close enough that I can feel the evocation of what it felt like to have been in that dream.
The reason I find this stuff especially noticeable when I'm almost remembering--as opposed to when I'm actually remembering--is because if I've actually remembered something, it's easier to get caught up in the contents of the memory, and to be less attentive to what the experience of remembering feels like.

 
I usually don’t have very intense internal sensations and I also don’t feel like they are persistent and have a narrative quality. But I am…quite detached from my sensations generally, I don’t get that caught up in the externally caused ones either. I am mostly caught in thoughts and/or absent minded. Sometimes I have little blobs of complete silence when I don’t even think about anything at all and I am also completely dissociated from what is happening outside. Are these the Ni zone outs or do Ni people actually think when they are zoning out ?? But my Ni is not developed, so, no idea where they are coming from.
I eagerly absorb imagery and sounds though. I also like some foods but…everyone does and I am really very simple, I don’t feel a lot of complicated food cravings.
 

Oh wow--very interesting! Thank you for this! I wonder if you have some particular connection to Ni, because it's your polar function? Even though I know better, I think sometimes I can fall into the trap of thinking that only Ne/Si types get their heads stuck in the clouds, get nostalgic, etc. But I see that you have these kinds of experiences, too, as an Se lead.
I also tend to get caught up in my thoughts and absent-minded, and can easily become sort of oblivious to what's going on around me. But I also really get into some kinds of intense experiences...and actually, I find that having varied experiences makes me more vigilant & engaged with the present moment. If I'm doing the same old thing, day after day, I tend to get zoned-out & complacent. Variety keeps me on my feet. That's one area where I feel like my experience varies from what I usually read about Si. But I definitely have limits, and I also feel like I've settled down a bit the past several years. You know, also when I was a little kid I couldn't handle some kinds of intense sensory experiences, like loud noises and that kind of thing.
 

About internal sensations…I think they are rarely good ones, right? When you feel something different from the usual, which is also internal, it generally is pain or some sort of discomfort. At least something like hunger, thirst, being tired. If everything is going perfectly, I generally don’t feel any internal sensation. They come like warning signs that something needs to be adjusted. So, my attitude towards them is to try to make them stop as soon as possible or – if they are not very intense – I try to ignore them and keep going. I am annoyed by them and quite unmerciful with my body. It feels like I have a sort of mind – body split and I feel like my body is pulling me back and stopping me from having fun and learning stuff and being active. I am 9 in enneagram and I read this might make you wish you had no body. I wouldn’t say that, because that would mean I’d wish to be dead, which I obviously don’t, I love life…but some of these internal sensations make me feel angry that I have a body that’s keeping me from enjoying life. Which is ironic, since I couldn’t enjoy life without it.

For me, I think plenty of my internal sensations are good. I love the feeling of just having eaten a very solid meal and feeling very pleasantly satiated. Or of having just done some hard exercise. But it does seem to be true that good internal sensations are more generalized and vague--like a general sense of wellbeing--whereas the bad ones can be more stabbing and acute. Intense hunger pangs feel a lot more pointed than feeling pleasantly full.
I guess the way in which I experience internal sensations as "narrative" sort of relates to what you said about them being warning signs. For me, it seems like they tell a running story about my overall health and that kind of thing. Not even necessarily just health, but making sure my sense of being is conducive to positive experiences. For example, if I'm going on vacation, the whole purpose is to relax and enjoy myself--but if I'm feeling sleep-deprived it's much harder to enjoy myself. (Sometimes that kind of attitude makes me a bit lazy, though).
Another thing about internal sensations is that they depend on precedent, context & interpretation. Like feeling something is "not quite right" internally relates to feeling that it feels different than it has historically, and that there's no obvious cause for the difference. It's kind of like tracking how the weather changes over time--the way I relate to the weather depends a lot on context. Right now it's very mild, the snow is starting to melt and I can go outside without a coat. By itself, that sounds pleasant enough...but it bothers me because it doesn't feel right in the context of my past experience--I know it's not supposed to be like this for three more weeks or so.
The other thing about them that gives them their continuity is that they're not usually as diverse or wide-ranging as external sensations. If I'm in a damp, musty cellar, and then go out into the bright sunlight, my external environment will have changed dramatically in just a short moment. But internal senses are usually more smooth & gradual in their fluctuation.

This reminds me of impressionism. The same environment depicted in a different way. It also had much to do with how the light fell on different objects. What was depicted were the objects but also the light movements on them. And the same object in the same environment can be depicted in many different ways depending on the time of day and on how the lights and shadows play on and around it. You don’t only see the images but also feel a certain warmth in them because what you see are not only the objects themselves but also the light on them and the way it gets reflected back from their surface or the way it embraces or wanders around them. But behind it all there is the perception of the artist. How he saw the objects and the light moving on them. There is a certain level of subjectivity but the result is somehow closer to reality than a completely realistic depiction of it !

Yes, very much so!--well said
One more thing-- I noticed after I made that last post is that one of the Jung passages I quoted started off by directly contradicting the point I was trying to make: "Sensation, which by its very nature is dependent on the object and on objective stimuli [...]" Hahah, oops.

[Ash Rose]

Not easily bored, no. My imagination is intensely active and a lot of the time it’s more interesting than what’s going on in “the real world” anyway.

[Bera]

@rondo

Thank you for posting this. I was uncertain whether this state belonged to Ti or Ji but this has made things much clearer for me. This state is indeed extremely useful and interesting. I think of Ji as the ultimate crisis survival function for its ability to “remove yourself from the equation” by being so in-tune with yourself you no longer have to feel or think, you merely act from pure instinct following from what you know in your bones to be right.

You are welcome, Rondo ! I remembered your post yesterday while talking to a friend about this issue. It is not my default way of functioning. I noticed I recently started doing it more often and I think it is very much due to high Ti users influence that I kept encountering here. In real life I don't know many high Tis and if I do, they don't generally Ti that much with me. In a community like this one it's different - I can see Ti doing its thing all the time. The first couple of weeks this seemed a bit overwhelming :)) and hard for me to understand. Then at some point it started to make sense and at the same time this way of using Fi I was talking about also started to intensify.
So, at this point I can use it this way too but I mostly do it after a little push in this direction. It does not have to come from high Ti users, I noticed it happening with high Fi too but more rarely because with Fi I generally directly empathize and I need the connection to my emotional register in order to do this. I get the push easier from unseelie Fi users and only when they say something that I don't completely resonate with. Because in this situation I have to go to my core to see what is there that does not resonate and in the process I have to also untangle some emotional ties. With seelie Fi I just directly resonate...my Fi core AND the emotional and ethical...vegetation that grows on and around it vibrate at a similar frequency and then I just need to express that vibration in words without a deeper search for the truth beneath. It's the same forest.
Speaking of Fi inner forests (cause I wouldn't call them constructs, as they are biotic, let's say we have Ti castles vs. Fi forests, that would make sense) I think this is a fascinating thing about trees :

And of course this is similar to what humans generally do regardless of functions. It can be easily connected to Fe too. But basically this feels like a better metaphor of the way Fi users relate to each other, sending fungi from our roots to the other's roots. We...don't try to move them, they are their own trees and aren't that movable to start with. 🙂 But we communicate sending little parts of ourselves  to them and receiving the same from them directly, due to our permeability. Mostly this is also pretty altruistic. But not coordinated/articulated like the Fe transactions. There is of course some Te involved too. Hey, who needs fungi, these guys do, let's send some to them. <3
But there is another dimension to Fi. Being engulfed in emotions can obscure the view. And this vegetation is not an intrinsic part of Fi, though it grows, blooms and withers around it. Fi is a compass function and needs to show you the right direction, no matter what you feel or desire. It is connected to emotions but it also aims to purify itself from them if this is necessary for it to show the right way.
And I think you need clarity to see the right way. And indeed the right way is an ethical construct itself. But in the end no one can completely escape the boundaries of their own subjectivity (though Ti will probably get closer to that)
So, Fi looks for the right path and needs to push aside everything that gets in its way to get there. And to ignore all other paths, because there is only one that is right. 🙂 And in order to do this, you look internally for what is there despite all the overgrowth.
And if it is obscured by weeds, you need to cut them off. Which is pretty challenging because these plants with their roots...they hold our internal self together...or rather...our ego (or maybe this is true only for Fi ego, like mine). Pull something out and the whole thing can crumble. And growing it back might be as hard as building a new Ti castle. Maybe even harder because hell, it's alive ! :)) Not sure though, I always do these metaphorical rambles and then doubt their reflection of the truth. 🙂

“The mind that holds the constellations falls to earth. The insect hum is gone, its fears and static
misgivings. In its place is a stillness so keenly balanced with tension one cannot feel a single thing but clarity.”

I love this ! Yes, totally ! I would love to read the rest of the story. Especially since it's a short story, it will go fast. I have to read a lot of things and I don't have the time. And new things appear every day.

[Author]

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