[Discord] Signals Clarifying

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Focusing more on finalizing the vultology code lately, the task of GIF'ing all the signals brings up the opportunity (or necessity) to move more from "qualia" to precise quantification. I  hope to paste a few conversational snippets in this thread from Discord, relevant to that effort. But also open up a larger discussion on how we might make a more "airtight" code and fix any problems it may have.

Fi9, Fi10 and Ne7

Spoiler

Auburn | TiNeYesterday at 6:46 PM

Hello guys! A few minor updates to the vultology code -- (moving from 1.5 to 1.6) In the interest of moving closer to quantification, I've removed "seelie energy" and "unseelie energy" from their slots as Fi9/Fi10 respetively -- since they're qualia indicators best gauged holistically -- and added Fi Wobbling Lips and Fi Breaking Through Cheeks, which are more articulated/defined signals that we've been using anyhow. I've also renamed Ne7 from "Spritely Energy" to "Balloon Effect", inspired by @sancho panza . The name wasn't representative enough of the signal, and I really like that term much better.

as always, let me know your thoughts!

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Of course, seelie and unseelie are still measured, but they are holistic qualia the same way Conductor and Reviser energy are, or King/Senex/Puer/Prince energy. And they are impossible to precisely GIF.
Inversely, Fi Wobbling Lips and Fi Breaking Through Cheeks are more accessible as signals and make for the identification of Fi more precise, I think.

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Note: I should mention that, in light of what @hrafn said recently here, the aim of the code is to identify something that exists quite apart from the reductionist approach. The 10 signals that are delineated under each function are open slots that can be modified, but are meant to be the ten most helpful quantitative aspects that can successfully approach/isolate the phenomenon (function) in question.
The number ten is arbitrary, as there are dozens of possible signals that could be extracted as we break down a function's holistic reality into more and more parts. But I decided on ten for each function as I felt it was a sufficient number to allow proper triangulation of data, and any more than that would become cumbersome and unmanageable from a practitioner perspective.
To that end, the specific signals picked out for a function are subject to revision, if a better way to approximate their reality can be identified. And I'm always hopeful of new insights from others as well, as to how the functions can be better encapsulated using concrete identifiers.

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Additional Note: From another perspective, the signals can be seen, in some ways, like "training wheels" -- but necessary ones. I believe we do need to precisely quantify the functions (S) in order to properly gauge their contextually-unbound (N) reality as well. It's like many people say of learning a piano song or instrument: you learn the notes as best as you can, but when it comes to the performance you put it away and operate as a fluid consciousness.
I believe vultology can have both qualitative and quantitative aspects, each equally valid, but they do both have to be given their fair due and we can actually make progress on both fronts -- even if they're diametrically opposed on the surface. So this is an attempt to bring the concrete domain of vultology to a higher resolution, while not forgetting the other aspect is also indispensable.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Fe vs Te Head Shakes and Nods (Fe6, Fe7, Te5, Te6)

Spoiler

Auburn | TiNeToday at 10:27 AM

i just took a look at Annie and I'm seeing FeNi (did I say FeNi before too?), she seems vaguely familiar.

i like that screenshot ash posted cuz i can see what signals we see!

ash:

mine:

im gonna see if i can make some gifs

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2019/HjxtnW.gif

^ Fe warm head nod

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2019/pvi1Qh.gif

^ Fe zygomatic smile + Fe warm head nod (& warm swelling)

The smile here, classic Fe:

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BeraToday at 10:36 AM

Thinking of it, she seemed to do the on beat emphasis...but it was so long ago when I looked

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Auburn | TiNeToday at 10:38 AM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2019/01d55P.gif

^ And here we have Ti emotional neutralization... leading into Fe/Ti swell-pause rhythm (stop-start)(edited)

@Bera yeah, but she also does have these high velocity moments that are snappy so i could see the confusion

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BeraToday at 10:42 AM

I can't see all gifs on my phone 🙁 I will check them on the laptop when I remain alone for a while...now my coworker keeps talking and looking at me and I can't do anything :(((

Yes,this makes sense

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Auburn | TiNeToday at 10:43 AM

yes, don't get fired!

err, meanwhile i'll post just a few more thoughts (feel free to ignore)

i think i have to make a greater distinction between signals. hmm... especially the head shakes/nods. for example here we have Annie doing a head shake that looks "Te" : https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2019/WgHMHz.gif(edited)

but actually, it still seems qualitatively different to me than: https://media.giphy.com/media/RfZ6W3A7dJ8CSKrrK8/giphy.gif

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BeraToday at 10:46 AM

Auburn, can you also show this on Avril Lavigne? Both me and Ash had difficulty seeing her Fe

Pls 🙂

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Auburn | TiNeToday at 10:47 AM

if i can describe it.. the difference between Te head shakes and Fe head shakes.. seems to be that Te involves a sort of subtle chin-tuck, and "sassy" movements of the head, not just the rattling left-to-right. the "sassy" aspect to the head movements is a bit like a rhythmic snake movement, or like a figure-eight motion.(edited)

yes.. like a figure-eight motion, or close to it. and in that figure-eight motion there's the chin-tuck and chin-projection duality(edited)

we can see this more visibly in the plateau emphasis GIF of this woman: https://media.giphy.com/media/j1gxHn7ZU9Ato9XGeR/giphy.gif

^ this is a Te head shake, even though technically it does less left-to-rights per second than the above Annie Lennox one(edited)

so it's not entirely about the velocity

gah, i wish i had more precise vector language to describe this. hmm

maybe i'll end up precisely modeling body movement vectors in a CAD program, hah!(edited)

oh and then get a motion tracking software to work, and then use some A.I. learning to correlate it with the CAD vectors that'd act as parameters.(edited)

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BeraToday at 10:55 AM

So...the chin is relevant in the Te head movements? I m not sure I understand exactly how

Also not sure I see the 8 motion. Maybe watching it slowed down would help

Usually I see this though... it's not just the velocity, there is some.. dismissiveness ? too.. ok, watching again

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Auburn | TiNeToday at 11:02 AM

in the case of the woman directly above, i think the 8 pattern is going through the Z-axis

but i may also see at times:

(of course, these are exaggerated and it's not a perfect "8" either..)

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BeraToday at 11:03 AM

Omg !!

I see it

In the last one

Do we all do this ? Te users? And more so Te leads?

And what do Fe users do instead?

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Auburn | TiNeToday at 11:06 AM

glad u see it!

we can see Obama (FeSi) do the same sort of head shake as Annie, which is different than the Te's. Here: https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2019/Zrm_r-.gif

again it's rapid velocity, but there is a uniformity to them,

i think the "dismissiveness" / "snappiness" of Te head shakes comes not from the velocity or rate of rattles itself, but from the sassiness that comes from a swerving vector pattern

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BeraToday at 11:12 AM

So because the head movements keep changing direction ? Because of the 8 pattern?

Is this already in the theory? I don't think I saw it

It shows how our steamrolling is neverending

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Auburn | TiNeToday at 11:28 AM

well this is an attempt by me to distill down 'qualia' even further... which is actually something that doing the GIFs forces, which is good and necessary

snippiness/dismissiveness are in the theory and book, but i don't think they were defined beyond an acceleration

well, i should say snippiness = acceleration

but dismissiveness is.. that sassy element with the 8-esque patterns woven into the snippiness

or at least i think that is how we can quantitatively distill dismissiveness down, as a motion vector

(id like to import this on the forum too, to open up a broader conversation, as i think it's important to better define the head shakes/nods)

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[Juan E. Sandoval]

Te / Fi & Sassiness

Coming to think of it, it actually surprises me that "Sassiness" isn't part of the code at present! ...given how central it is to the Te/Fi oscillation. I think it's  because a precise description has eluded me? But for example:

^ In the first part of this GIF we see him looking up and doing head shakes..
These head shakes are snippy (= high velocity) yes, but they're also sassy. They have a a swerving quality to them. We see this also in many others like:

^ Here again we see how the head shakes are not only like this:
<--- / --->
but they're also a little like this:
∞
And a few more...

I'm just brainstorming out loud, feel free to let me know what you guys think. I am thinking that, if it turns out this feature is codifiable and essential to Te, I might move out Te9 Blunt Humor (a less reliable psychological cue) for Te9 Sassiness.

[Nymph]

@auburn Yeah, this what I think a lot of people notice with high Te users is the "sassiness." On dating sites they call themselves out by saying "My friends describe me as sassy." Usually when I hear that I run.

[Juan E. Sandoval]

@jay - Hehe! Yes, we were just talking on Discord about the potential effects of vultology + dating.

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Okay, I'm gonna do some real overhault to the vultology code here, cuz its current rendition just isn't going to get the job done. Here goes...

[Juan E. Sandoval]

Updates:

• Added Te Sassy Movements by removing Te Blunt Humor. It's always better to have visual cues in the code, over psychological cues.
• Reorganized the Te signals so as to match their Fe head shakes/nods counterparts.
• Broke up Se Presence into two cues:
  • Se Gravity Effect
  • Se Bodily Awareness
• In the above process, I removed Se Tunnel Focus (as it's very close to/redundant with Locked-On Eyes)
• Changed Se High Sensitivity to "Se Persistence Effect" (a better known term, although still a psychological signal).

Explanations:

Ne Levity vs Se Gravity

As far as the body is concerned, the difference between Ne and Se is that the body of Ne is buoyant, with a gravity-resisting effect. Movements tend to bounce upward, perking up enthusiastically. This can also lead to a "tip-toeing" gait, and an overall "suspended" energy when walking or even just sitting. I described it before as a balloon or as a puck gliding on a hockey table.
Displaying this proportionally we have:
Ne Balloon Effect

Which is when the buoyant undercurrent (below) creates a full "swooping" motion. If Buoyant Undercurrent is a balloon tied to a chair, then the Balloon effect is when the ribbon is cut and it takes flight.
Ne Buoyant Undercurrent

And this is the baseline level of suspension mentioned above. There is subtle lightness in the body, and an enthusiasm in movements.
Se Gravity Effect

(a sincere thank you to @supahprotist for his generosity in proving a great example of this signal)

The counterpart to the balloon effect is Se's gravity effect, which has a "falling" motion at all times. The movements of Se will often appear nonchalant. Notice the way his hand collapses down and grazes his knee before falling even further down again. The limbs of the Se user have this sort of gravity effect.  Now, the other aspect to Se body mannerisms...
Se Bodily Awareness


^ This is, as the name implies, a bodily awareness that Se users have. It manifests in a tactile consciousness which leads to motions such as fidgeting, readjustments, or in this case scratching/etc.
It can also lead to fiddling with nearby pens or objects, or otherwise remaining in some direct connection to the environment. But this signal isn't about any one of those things in isolation. Anyone can pick up a pen or scratch. It's in the fact that there's an attentiveness to the state/position/situation that one's body is in, and a real-time, almost instant, maneuvering of it when necessary.

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These two aspects were currently lumped together into Se Presence but I think they're much more quantifiable when parsed out. And together, this properly balanced Ne and Se with: [Ne Balloon Effect + Ne Buoyant Undercurrent] vs [Se Gravity Effect + Se Bodily Awareness].. with each relevant aspect being more concretely delineated.
 

[Nymph]

@auburn The Fi signals are much easier to follow. One thing I keep noticing with Fi users, especially high Fi users is that they never directly answer a question on cue. There's an Fi guardedness that diverts questions about generalities to "well, that depends on the situation" or "everyone is their own person, so I can't answer that." I think of it as Fi stonewalling. Is this a thing others have noticed?
 

[Tea]

I like this. I prefer the code to be as asymmetrical as possible. (Although, grrrr, I just printed tally sheets of the old code. lol)
CourtJest, your observation may be in line with the earlier observation on this thread re: Te/Fi figure 8 movement. Perhaps Te/Fi has to check out not just left to right, but left, right, up, down....

[Sander]

Awesome!
Every time I fear theoretical stagnation your Ne comes out 🙂

[Author]

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