Developments Discussions
July 28, 2021

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  • #30027
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown
    This thread was imported from the CT Discord server because it was considered valuable to future discussions. If one of your messages is here and you'd like it removed, just message @ Auburn and it will be removed.

    I never brought this up more than once because I never thought of a solution. I don’t like the term “development levels” because it implies you can level up. “Development” in nature typically happens in a predictable order. So it reminds me of MBTI. What about “development types”? Since it sort of changes the type from the standard MBTI type (ENFP in MBTI is basically equivalent to NeFi I—- here).
    “Development shape”?

    funny enough, i actually recently changed the page on development-levels to simply "developments".

    “Energetic development”?
    That’s simple enough and works!

    i think "developments" is general enough to cover it


    yea, i think i'll be removing the "levels" terminology from the site

    Oh good. That fixes it!
    It’ll be easy to do too

    we all have different developments, but they shouldn't be looked at as levels (which indeed implies hierarchy)

    I remember voicing criticism of the “levels” part a couple years ago XD. Auburn told me he just meant it in the most general sense of the word!

    But I even in the most general sense, I’m not sure it makes sense. It still sounds linear

    i did yea. i didn't think it'd be a problem-- but since this channel is about fixing any issues before scaling up, i think it's good to clean up terminology like this

    Ah yes, we're finally bringing this up :weary: i had to explain multiple times how despite it called levels, it doesnt imply leveling up or down....
    I wonder what to substitute it with
    I'm not sure keeping it at just 'developements' works perfectly
    And 'Developement type' is redundant

    Development is fine
    But I think something else may work better
    I just don’t have it

    Subtype? :thinking: Where even I--- is its own subtype from specifying whatever the cognitive function type is. 16 × 8 types! :ok_hand: I'm okay with it simply being called "development", but it does directly imply that some people are more or less developed than others... :weary: But! "development can change" may sound less confusing than "subtype can change"?? I dunno...

    Subtype is good

    (messages skipped) @ lautrec - yea, i've been curious to hear your full thoughts for a while now too-- looking forward to it!
    i don't know the literature you're referring to on g, but what i can say is it doesn't seem to contradict the current formulation of development. see: - the way development is currently understood in the model is as a zero-sum situation, where having more developed functions will divide mental resources across various processing priorities-- while preserving overall mental capacity of the individual.
    in the link here, we have 25 "blocks" representing the full allotment of computational power of the individual across their CTA, which are distributed differently. now, this could be graphed across another y axis that says, for the sake of metaphor, that high IQ individuals have more "blocks" to work with, lets say 30 or 35. but the phenomenon of uneven distribution of blocks is what model 2 would be getting at.
    So, if the energetics were moreso identical to g factors (im not saying they are, but its possible), this would mean that a sufficiently high IQ Ji ll-- type would have Pe mental processing on par with a Pe l--- of low IQ, for example. I don't see this as being too odd actually, and it seems wholly reasonable and doesn't seem to violate any theoretical components. it would just mean that type would need to control for general intelligence, in its experimentation, and probably measure type by the relative ratios of the energetics to one another, not necessarily against a single universal standard of high or low.

    So if you’re Ji I—- and a genius, then your Ji mental processing would be more awesome than 99% of the population If that same genius integrates all of their functions, the mental processing capabilities of each function would compare to average intelligence standard developed people with each of those functions as the lead Is that what you’re getting at? So they can have 1 awesome tool or 4 average tools in their toolkit

    yea basically. the way i understanding it is general intelligence is, well, general-- so it raises the overall 'floor' of a person's mental processing. and it seems to be somewhat physiological. so, some people in this world have more processing power than others - like having a stronger PC. so even unprioritized processes would run smoother.

    As I said, I had disagreements concerning the discussion around Functions development, or possible misunderstanding. I decided to take the discussion here instead since it is a more appropriate channel for it. Also, take this answer more as an overall opinion around the fx dev than an outright response to anything discussed in Wolrd-prepararion. Let's say I am simply sharing my "worldview" of this concept lmao My main disagreement was with the idea of more integrated (as in conscious) functions = better/more optimal/desirable/etc. Or at least, that was one of the point I got from reading the discussion. If it wasn't the case, then the following will simply add to what was previously said. Having more integrated functions is neither a good or bad thing. It is one way of being among other, determined as more optimal for the person's survival or well-being.
    • Having more integrated functions means energy is splitted, since we do have limited resources. Auburn already explained that point. Therefore, it means with more integrated functions you do get more tools, but you also sacrifice mastery. You get to become a Jack of all-trade but a master of none. However, certain life circumstances require mastery and expertise. You can have a hammer, but sometimes you need a specialized kind with a specific technique to get rid of something that is also more arduous than a nail. So your hammer won't suffice.  When you integrate another function, your lead function gets tainted, for the better but also the worst. A l--- dev means everything is done to actualize the lead functions goals and potentials. This has its undeniable quirks, even if it definitely has flaws. You do get to get the purest expression of a given function, and this has nothing inferior to a dev with more integrated function. It is a specialization that no other development can reach because the moment you fully integrate a function, your neural pathways gain a novel perspective. It's not bad either as I said, but you do loose access to something else. Your perspective is now tainted in a new light, as if a new color was added to your basic one. You won't be able to fully come back to your original tone unless it is possible to sacrifice integration and revert, but I am not a neuroscientist so I can't know if this revert is possible or not. •
    However, a l--- dev doesn't mean the other functions won't act or can't be modulated. A l--- doesn't equal having one way to deal with things. There are levels of integration before reaching what was called consciousness. I think those are the important aspect to develop, but the point I want to make is that you don't need to reach full integration to actually get adequate mental health or even use those functions properly, and so have access to some other tools. Being able to modulate your non-lead functions when needed could be far enough, in the optic of becoming the most adaptive possible. Tho, I would even argue that having a repressed relationship with a function could lead to interesting life paths choice for an individual and could still give fascinating outcomes, both on an individual or social level. Because someone with a repressed relationship will gain a unique perspective on that function. They might have more ease to notice the fallback to that function and so be extremely minded to solve issues revolving around the flaws of this function. Of course, it can also backfire and lead to total distortion, and so disastrous consequences, but any strength comes with a weakness.  •
    My last point was also that life is not ideal, and reality is it will never be. Because the ideal of now might be the nightmare of tomorrow. What is deemed as an ideal right now is ideal because it accounts for present problems, flaws and difficulties. Once implemented, new consequences will also arise, and also new problems we couldn't think of because they were non existent in the previous setting and so, not known from our awareness.  Therefore, we also need all kind of niches in order to adapt to the various circumstances we'll meet and the various problems given in the present period in time. For someone l--- dev could be the best fit for their well being while for another, l-ll dev was. As a social species, we need all those differences to actually strive, whatever the paradigm at play in our societies. Every dev has its niches and flaws. Everything comes with a cost. As long as we are humans, those principles will apply.

    i love the way you put this! i enjoy your long responses a lot. i agree, and i would also just add that we have database examples of geniuses and experts thriving in life, making big impacts in the world, while being l---. Maybe even because of that very concentration/focus. But of course, thriving can happen in all developments, and the right development is the one most well adjusted to the inner and outer context.

    You won't be able to fully come back to your original tone unless it is possible to sacrifice integration and revert

    I can attest to this... because I remember what I was like when I was Ti l---. And I can feel the existential difference to me then and me now. In relation to my younger self, I am much more quick-and-dirty with my reasoning. Less perfectionistic, and therefore less refined. Sometimes when I find that "place" again, of pure Ti, I remember just how keen I can be, and how many more layers down I can penetrate the essentials of a topic.

    But I also become almost paralyzed into inaction, because that degree of introversion wholly consumes me, and I become one-thing, but a much more polished thing.
    I decided against this path and towards Je, for my future, because I felt all of my mind's precious secrets were going to die with me in silence, buried in my head. Yet I knew as soon as I uttered anything, it was already imperfect. So I kept/coveted my perfect thoughts in my inner sactum for years, until I decided to let go of 100% perfection, in order to have ~90% perfection but at least a little bit of agency and proof of my existence in the world. :smile:
    But I didn't necessarily feel that my choice was a "better" path-- just a new path, that I deemed better for myself. And I sometimes miss that youth I left behind. In some ways I consider him sharper than me. But I have the upper hand in competence. So we envy each other.
    • This topic was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Discord.
    Mithra Semiramis
    • Type: Unknown
    • Development:
    • Attitude: Unknown

    there are some topics here relevant to some of my personal concerns that are generally left disappointed by the typology community, so I'll jump in.  I want to preface by saying that I still have a long way to go in studying this system.  I discovered vultology 3 months ago and was intrigued by how accurately the signals seem to reflect what I believe to be my cognitive functions and I appreciate the potential to account for alternate development paths, as mine most definitely is.  I seem to be in the beta quadrant and have always typed as an INFJ 🙄 lol and so far vultology appears to reflect that as well (based on a review of video from before I was exposed to this content and general awareness of my behavior) although I display marked Pe in interaction that is otherwise largely absent in alone time due to strain and lack of natural focus.

    I'll try to get to the point 😁 a lot clicked for me when I established a general understanding of energetics (the archetypal associations like king/queen etc. was very helpful btw).  I could clearly see how each of the energetics emerged in my personality development and how much I've been struggling with Je.  I really appreciate the paradigm that superimposes an alternate development path on the "natural" one because that juxtaposition is the first that really captures what's going on with my personality.  I can see exactly why I veered away from conscious Je development by necessity in my home life.  and yet, Fe has been this thing that I struggled in the shadow of, with the degree of influence it's unconscious power has had within me, my values, and disposition.  I do very clearly display the energetics but I've resisted truly bringing it into myself as a comfortable part of my being, although I've made more progress recently. 10 years ago seems to mark the point at which I made the necessary step of taking the first conscious step towards it, out of a need to differentiate my sense of self within unintentionally abusive family dynamics.  the consequences irl estranged me from my family and resulted in a catastrophic ego death that left me in a state of psychological shock for 6 years (no emotion, minimal cognitive processing, in a kind of perceptual haze).  I actually knew it had been coming my whole life, within a deep sense of how my emotionally toxic developmental environment perpetually invalidated my ability to realize my needs as an individual, even after I moved away from home as an adult.  anyhow, I've been recovering the last 4 years and was pleasantly surprised by the benefits of lifting the veil of dissonance from my cognition.  there's been a lot of psychological damage to struggle through but I've gotten into typology as a roadmap to orient myself in the process of individuation and healing and so far this notion of embodied cognition has tremendous promise ☺️ imo. 

    ok, I have a few questions and please forgive the level of ignorance with which I may be asking, I usually can't stop myself from trying to jump ahead with personal implications when I should just focus on taking in new content 😆 I just get excited when something clicks in a way that later on I'll probably feel sheepish about.  I can actually see how well this instinct fits with the CT section on Ni, which contains the most relatable content on Ni I've seen so far.  I was wondering what you think of Ni Ti Se Fe as a pathway?  once the functional paradigm of energetics sunk in, a conceptual timeline of emergence was undeniable.  it also clarified the difference between unconscious and conscious functioning and made sense of some peculiarities within my personality, like how much more childlike I am now than when I was actually a child 😆 and thank god for that ☺️

    anyway, I'm trying not to write a novel lol and I've gotten the basic question out ☺️ the other thing that intrigued me was the mention of IQ.  when I was a child, I was administered the Stanford Binet and transferred to a school with a 145 IQ entrance requirement and last year (when I was 39) I took an online Mensa test and my results required extrapolation beyond the programmed scoring parameters, which I believe to have been 85-145.  my point is that my IQ seems to consistently register in the range of extrapolation and I was wondering what, if any, impact this could have on a function stack like mine.  I otherwise know myself to be a 549 sx/so with a major tendency to socially withdraw (I'm vulnerable to physiological overstimulation) and I tend to slip into a kind of Ni-Se perceptual loop as a coping mechanism.  Pi Ji appears dominant in my basic functioning with active fulfilment and joy revolving around Pe, which is also central to my sense of self.  Je seem to be the growth I'm actively working on integrating for greater balance and well-being and a more effective ability to assert myself and act meaningfully in the world with confidence and responsibility.  thank you for your patience and consideration ☺️ and I really look forward to everything I have yet to learn from CT. 

    great... I just started thinking of myself as a Senex Princess 😂🤣🤦🏻‍♀️😏

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