CT Clarifications & Next Steps

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  • #17306
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Hello all,
    Currently I am immersed in the challenge of creating the Profiler that will redefine how CT moves forward into the future, as it relates to its personally-tailored psychological descriptions. But it occurred to me that there hasn't been enough transparency as to what this process entrails, why it's so important, and what problems it's geared to resolve.
    As you guys know, one enormous hurdle (the standardization of signals) was recently elevated to a new status with the completion of the codifier. This new baseline facilitates the possibility of higher consensus than ever before, the removal of much qualia-reliance, and a necessary push towards honest falsifiability and testability.
    But the last two big projects undertaken (the codifier, and before that the new Database/Dev-Levels completion) have together amounted to around a year's worth of time. In the meantime, the psychological side of CT has been left unattended to, so that at this point what we have learned from a psychological angle has not been fleshed out in descriptions to the degree that the theory technically allows.
    Chief among these problems is the fact that we now have a high level of vultological resolution (1024) while we have nothing of the sort in terms of introspective resources. So the definitions/profiles need to "catch up" to the concrete advances made in the data itself. After all, the psychological is critical and central for CT, as that is what the concrete signals point to. Two important efforts towards this consolidation of psychological data have been made in the form of these two threads:

    ..which both attempt to give an updated view of the psychological angle of types, developments, and hierarchy. However, we are still left with the problem of the profiles being mismatched in resolution to the holistic developmental understanding CT now presents.

    8 Function Profiles

    In light of this shift-of-focus in the past year, towards the concrete, I have noticed a trend both on the forum and Discord to re-focus too heavily on behaviorism, and specifically to seek solutions to one's psychology in the static 8 function profiles. One effect has been that of feeling as though a mismatch to the 8 function profiles is indicative of a CT theoretical failure. Firstly, we must not forget the metabolic foundation of CT and the fact that behavioral traits are approximate statistical correlates to the underlying modus operandi of a person. But perhaps more crucially... they were never meant to be that sort of guide, and people who are seeking from the 8 profiles a description of themselves, in the whole, are looking in the wrong place. It goes without saying that the 8 profiles are inadequate for describing people because there aren't 8 types of people. This is why we have the 1024 shades to begin with. 🙂
    But at the same time, this is also rather inevitable and to some extent understandable given the lack of other resources than could properly describe people at their 1024 resolution in profile form. The move, from now going forward, will be to flesh out this neglected psychological aspect.

    Profiler

    I have a vision for the profiler that I cannot yet fully share, but will share more information as time goes by. But in general, it will make use of some 50-60 independent writeups, each ~4-5 paragraphs long, and through the use of coding and some redundancy it will stitch them together in rather unique ways to generate tailored psychological profiles at the resolution of 1024. This will take a lot of creative work and editing to make the sections fit together seamlessly, and the end product will be the equivalent of 100+ pages of psychological data. In that process, I expect that any lingering questions related to what the dev levels mean, and what our member's dev levels mean, will be fully addressed.
    But I would also consider it irresponsible of myself to leave things where they are now, in this gap of understanding, with months of silence on the topic while I go to complete this process. So I decided to share a video I recorded in private where I discuss (wholly unscripted) my thoughts on this. Again I was not intending to share this, but I feel compelled to provide 'something' rather than nothing, to explain where things are headed -- and perhaps to give some glimpses into the answers that our members here may have.

    (For your convenience, I've also added the youtube transcript below for a quicker read)
    Also, I would rephrase or add disclaimers to every other sentence, if time permitted, so please don't take any of my comments too rigidly! It's all in good faith, and it was a casual stream of consciousness and I hope it can be seen as such, thank you!

    Spoiler

    It's 2:00 a.m. January 23rd 2020 today I posted the Se profile. I got the kind of feedback that in some ways that I was hoping for and I was expecting but at the same time that I'm frustrated by. It brings to light the kind of problems that I see but it's like I see something that.. it's very real to me but there's no way.. it's so elaborate and it's so complex that... it's coherent in my mind but like I have to either present it in full or not at all. And so what it is.. is this:
    I did part of it already with explaining the CT psychoanalysis thread and the ontological priority right? That started to begin to explain what is really happening within types but there's another aspect which is the development levels.
    Now what happens is people will tend to identify with their development level more than any other thing so..in the psychoanalysis threat I spoke about the Damon or Muse relation with an unconscious function insofar as a function actually is unconscious, right? Now there's another aspect to this that I didn't mention and that is if the function actually is conscious, it'll be the aspect of oneself that they actually identify with the most and so you have this irony where whatever position you move from away from your lead process will be the position that you will be aligned to in your ego more.
    And this is besides metabolism so let me give an example. If you are a Pe lead and you developed Je your ego is more likely to be in Je, why? Because you've had to step away from Pe to get to Je and because it's a higher modulation it means that you've... there's been a pressure in your life that's been effortful enough and valuable enough and important enough for you to do the work of getting there and now that you're there that becomes your new state of presence. That becomes your new state of being and you shine it, you thrive in it. It can come to be seen as the more "you", oppositely the lead function, in this scenario Pe, you might not see as much as part of you because it's more so the part of you that you combat it's like the trivial... (well in the view of Je it might be seen as the trivial) ...nonchalant lazy aspect which is actually not "them" anymore. It really isn't them anymore in some sense.
    So that they've counteracted the elements of their own Pe that defines that aspect, so that what it means for them to be who they are now is the latest thing that they've become. So now you see this irony because we have Elsie and Erica... they're both Pe-Je and they're very much go-getters workers focused on power dynamics understanding life in causality, the life of action, the life of doing, right? And then here's an opposite scenario we have the Doctor and CorrendousHunt but let's start with the Doctor. Both are Je-leads. These two guys are Je-Pe right? So in the Doctor we see that he's moved away from his own Je into his Pe and now his identity is more looped into Pe -- again the ego goes into the direction of whatever is the latest development even if the latest is like when they were 5 years old, you know it's like whenever they developed the process.. nonetheless they had to move to that direction. So now the JePe may see themselves as goofy, silly, lazy, nonchalant, playful because that's where the ego is, that's where the development is at. And so the Doctor here is saying "hey you know guys I think I want to change my type again I don't think I have the.. I don't think have the the force and charisma to be a Fe-lead, no I think I'm an Ne lead." And you even have CorrendousHunt with Te and he's like "you know sometimes I really can't see myself compared to some of these Te leads that are so successful or whatever, you know I think I might be an SeFi I instead of a Te." And you know he was diagnosed with ADHD recently.
    But that isn't actually what's happening. They aren't... CorrendousHunt is not an SeFi, the Doctor is not an NeTi. The Doctor's an FeSi, CorrendousHunt is a TeNi. And Erica is an SeFi, she's not a TeNi and Elsie is an NeFi not a TeSi. But now this kind of nuance is a sort of thing that I need to write the development levels profiles for because that's where I would describe these moves away from the origin. So the way I would write the development levels of, say, the Pe-lead is.. the Pe first function conscious, I'd write it a certain way, and then the Pe double extroverted I would start by saying what the native state is and how there's a shift away in focus and then how the ego focus is now in this other aspect and that's the most dominant ..lets say..aspiration of the person "even though" underneath they're all scattered; even though underneath they're bouncing around a bunch of place. It's like they're bouncing around here and there and everywhere while they're shooting and trying to aim and they're succeeding, I mean probably. But the aspiration is to aim and target and to hit and to do, and to achieve, even though their native state would be to just bounce around everywhere. So that's the difference, it's like what the body would otherwise want to do versus what the egos trajectory (what the effort) is directed towards.
    So the opposite case with the Doctor would be that the effort..the seamless effort.. would be directed towards the king energy, the prowess, the capacity, the execution, the rhetoric, the articulation, the capacity to be firm and in charge. So in the Je baseline you know that the beginning is the ability to just have this natural articulation, have this natural degree of command, of control, and to be somewhat controlling and authoritative. But then when you get to Je-Pe or double extroverted, there's a move away.. so there's a move away from this desire to be a hard-ass bossy pants controller, to be somebody more jovial, to be somebody more relaxed. But see the difference is -- and this is like a historical thing-- it's like the difference is you would "tell"; you would be able to tell if somebody is.. let's say.. a hard-ass boss Je that is changed his ways to be more chill and now he's chill, that's his thing. He's a chill guy he's a chill dude, he does all kinds of relaxed activities and so forth because that's where he's "at" you see. But that's not who he "is" metabolically at the core and this happens for all the development levels. And so that's why I need to write the development levels because otherwise people like Doc and people like Elsie and people like Erica are gonna keep having these questions. Also people like Jelle are gonna keep wondering if they're SeTi. It's not the case.. but without those descriptions its gonna continue happening and then it'll continue to be a problem.
    Also while I'm on topic I'll talk about Ji leads. Here just another example, Ji leads that really have the second function developed (there might be a few people that I have been too generous with their second function, like I think now that I've thought about it more and refined the codifier) ..but for those that actually do have the second function completely developed, right? They won't identify with being a picky perfectionist about life, they'll actually want "relief" from that so here's Nadia; Nadia's TiNe but two function conscious, so she has developed Ne and that's exactly what she wants. She doesn't identify with the kind of Ti lead that's trying to parse out information precisely and obsessed over the right wording, actually she "hates" that about herself in some sense and she wants to be playful and jovial and she thought she was an ENF type, maybe like an Ne-lead, because that's where her ego is at, but that's actually not who she is at core, it's like she's trying to move away from that. So like at the core if you examine her what she says is "gosh man I've been such a prick in my life and my thoughts kind of get to me, they clamped me and I don't like that about myself, these thoughts constrict my creative flow, constrict my life." You know she says that Ti just needs to chill out right? And she loves that, she loves it when her Ti chills out; she loves it when she meets people that make that release happen from her own Ti and she can just bobble around in Ne land right? ...there it is. But see the the metabolic difference is key here, it's the metabolism that tells you what's really happening... so in the metabolism you can identify whether somebody is natively something and is swerving to another direction, which is not the same as being in that direction natively.
    But where the person is at in their journey is more reflective of their development level and that is more than likely going to be what they identify as, so there's this problem with any profile that tries to omit this information because it's so critical, it's so important... that it's like almost everybody who doesn't have a standard development level will get themselves wrong unless they understand the relationship they have with all their functions and where their ego is placed... which is just another way of saying what development level they have. And what the energetic relationship is between their metabolically native function and the function that they're aspiring towards or actually in; the function that they're in.
    So it's all these little things that the development levels profiler will isolate. And I've already told you about like five scenarios of these different development levels but you know there's 32. And all of them have these kind of dynamics happening so this is the kind of stuff that I'm going to be writing about in the coming weeks if I can manage it. And I guess I just wanted to put this out there to tell you guys a little of what I'm doing.

    [collapse]

    This just touches upon one of many inner dynamics that happen within people. Each individual has an "internal" relationship with parts of themselves and I think the profiler, when written fully, can capture what that internal relationship is like.
    edit: Naturally sometimes people do correctly identify with their lead process, despite non-standard development. So it's not a hard/fast rule. Again, I'd add disclaimers to every other sentence, if time permitted, but still wanted to put out the jist. Thanks for reading!
    *scurries back into cave*
    *gets back to work*

    #17316
    Alice
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    What an incredible idea with such a creative execution! Very excited to see this, and very excited to hear more about it in the long term 🙂
    I absolutely relate to this. Just to give a possible example of how this kind of journey might look -
    I certainly have existed in Se since integrating it years ago, to the point of really kind of becoming obsessed and fascinated with the physical and sensual aspects of life, and I am only just now doing the work of getting back in to my home of Fi. In the process though, I feel like I'm almost losing Se in a way. In the framework described above, I could be modulating back to a base development after years of being at ll--. As I try to get back to and discover the innate aspects of my personality, who I was as a child, I feel like I am losing my footing in the physical reality around me. It's wholly necessary from a therapeutic standpoint, and that's why I'm doing it, but it's difficult and confusing work!
    What you have articulated here is such an incredible realization and insight though!
    I have, in recent years, really come to hate the little critic/perfectionist in my brain. I deeply relate to how Nadia feels, but I've also recently realized the value in it. It does make me feel like this asshole sometimes though, thinking I know what's right. It's this wild dissonance where I am not just convinced I have all the facts and all the correct ideas / emotions, but I know I have them, while at the same time I berate myself for being so serious and stuck up about it. It's very ironic, becoming critical of the inner critic. I worked so hard to get to a place where I could relax about myself, but knowing I have this innate desire and skill to be emotionally insightful and accurate means something, right? Might it mean that my talents lie in those domains, and that maybe I should focus more on them?
    Could this be an example of anything described above?
    This idea of ego placement vs innate base is super interesting to me, and I absolutely cannot wait to learn more about it.

    #17318
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Very excited to read/hear about this, as it seems like a monumental task, but also an absolutely critical one. The idea of being able to correctly diagnose and describe this powerful human tendency to attach the ego to its creations is really something. It quite reminds me of a very strong feeling many religious individuals possess and articulate, which is that morality could not exist, or would die without religion. But this attitude forgets or fails to comprehend that religion is the totem through which society invests its morality, amplifying it through these external institutions and rituals... and while I don't believe the sort of militant atheism someone like Richard Dawkins practices is very effective for actually converting people to his version of "the truth", a brief comment of his about how morality must necessarily predate religion did crystallize this totemic understanding in my mind.
    The human tendency towards becoming enamored with its own perceptions and creations is so deep, that the work you're embarking on here will likely need quite a few revisions before it could satisfy, let's say even 90% of people that encounter it, but even that would be an almost unheard-of accomplishment of psychological, categorical specificity, and I'm confident that you'll produce something great to share with the world 🙂

    #17322
    EpicEntity
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Directive

    This shine a light at the idea of me using Ti and Ni to be something more then what I already was. Now it seem like Ti and Ni our working to enable Se to fully unleash while protecting it from societal forces. Mostly those who are always trying to be something more than what they already are.
    My dreams has been to use my Ni to illustrate Se. But my Se is reforming in perspective so much that it gives my Ni less and less to work with.

    @auburn
    this vision of yours and how it is using a limited number of existing ideas that parallel to generate an unlimited number of non-existing paralleled ideas remains me of the capabilities of Ni over Ne. Do you believe Ni users, Ne users, or another function inspired you to have this vision?



    #17335
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Everything you wrote about me, I completely agree with.  My ideas about Se in the past were partly influenced by Socionics, who made Se a kind of go-getter powerhouse. The reason I didn't type as Se was because of the 'they can't see past their nose' and 'they need a Ni lead to tell them what goals to have in the long run' stuff.  This was spelled out so extremely that ultimately I veered away, even though I did see a lot of Se in myself.
    I think the problem with that Socionics stuff is that it conflated the 'moment to moment' cognition, as a person takes in the world, with the ability to reason beyond it and make choices. One can be immersed in whatever they're doing in the moment and forget that anything else ever existed (which is pretty much how I live my life), but still return to the same goals, projects, places and people, if they simply make the choice to do so. I realize this may be difficult for some, and I won't pretend that I'm not Te developed and that this didn't play into it, but there are people like Einstein who just had Pe and they chose to do the work anyway. In enneagram he would be a 9, not a 5 like many believe - I won't go deep into the reasons here, but in his case it's easy: he's a blissful jolly guy who bikes and looks like he laughs from his belly. Anyway... there's no reason in typology why Einstein would be programmed to make so much progress and have so much success, but he just chose to follow his fascination and to return to it over and over, and then eventually the hard work paid off. I don't remember his life story in full but that can be the case for anyone, even a Pe type. Socionics made it sound like someone else has to keep a Se type on course- but what you're saying @Auburn, I think, is more that the constitution of a Se type is to get immersed in something stimulating in the moment - but this does not preclude hard work and success. Your new Se profile makes this really, really explicitly clear.
    Personally I didn't need the Se profile to account for all of my successes, my failures, and my goals and visions. My complaints in the past were more that it didn't seem to match the real people who were being typed at Se. I am happy to say that it does now!  In fact it was so on point - not with just ME, but with the sense I have of myself AND other Se users and what is behind it - that reading the first half brought tears to my eyes! It was beautifully executed.  This was really the heart of any critical commentary:

    I think the key is that it's a draw to total immersion. The level of which may be clausterphobic for other types especially Ne. Whether physical or emotional theres a need to be immersed in this experience that makes all else fade away. Hence the propensity for drug addiction, challenge, adventure, competition and/or sex.

    So what I'm talking about is more what underlies the type, not the exterior behaviors. For instance I pushed including 'music' because SO MANY Se leads were musicians. I never thought you should include "writing" even though I've written novels since I was a kid. But the reason I did is that it was an immersive amazing experience to let this story be channeled through me. There's nothing more immersive and stimulating on Earth, for me, aside from LSD, Music, and Sex! So your profile for Se pretty much accounts for it.  I also could not possibly relate more to being beyond right and wrong. I've always had this type of animalistic, lusty, 'beyond right and wrong,' challenger of convention (for me this is implicit in doing whatever I want, rather than some need to rebel) and trickster. So I think if I'd seen the profile as it is now, I'd have been very likely to type as Se lead by myself.  The mythology is completely me; what I work hard on is expressing the nature of that - which is exactly how you explain PJJ development (III-) --- the focus on articulating the meaning of P.
    So basically, you're right -- including the development levels and so forth really helped, though I do think the central themes of Se are much clearer now and realistically aligned with the people who are being typed at Se. My interest was just in answering, why are so many Se leads more interested in something else than physical stimulation? And I think the answer is that it's about absolute immersion into the experience. And once it's presented as such, I see it in myself and the other Se users you typed, as a very central theme. But my personality and goal focus is explained by the J development. And I can't speak as well for others but I know this has worked very well for the people I'm close to. So I say, you're absolutely right and you will have the potential to outline psychology in a way that no other typologist has touched on.

    #17339
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    This is very impressive ! Let us know if we can help in any way !
    Erica - I agree Se seems to be about immersion and not as much about physical stimulation. It is possible for us to get immersed in a physically stimulating activity, but it doesn't have to be this way ! Now...most activities are at least visually stimulating and I think this is where this whole issue comes from.
    I have to say I came to terms with Se - it supports me in pursuing some of my interests.
    But- as an SeFi II--  I can totally agree about seeing Pe as potentially drawing me back. If I used Se purely in order to enjoy sensual pleasure, that would be a huge waste of time and...basically SLOTH with a red ribbon on top ! Maybe other sins too? Gluttony? I'm not sure. The point is we are obviously not here to have fun. :))
    I act foolish all the time, I will joke about anything, I don't come off as a serious person in the least. But this is because it's easy for me to connect to others by relating to them from a playful point. Not because I want to enjoy life to the fullest right now, not caring about the consequences!  I am not that much of a nihilist !!! :))) I believe I can do constructive things  with my life. I will not explain it in a passionate, heartfelt way, but I don't think everything I do or everything everybody does is meaningless, hence the only way to live life is to enjoy every moment to the fullest !  There are valuable things we can (and must !) do because this is our duty as long as we have the possibility to do them !
    And I tend to do my duty (as well as I can) while still acting foolish, playful and open to novelty, because it is easier for me to act this way and it costs me less energy overall than if I adopted a super authoritative, decisive and frowning persona. Or a more Ji disengaging, introspective persona. It's easier for me to do useful stuff using my energetic baseline, with the other functions as support.
    But this does not mean I lack ethics altogether ! Indeed I lack a completely clear and well defined ethical system, similar to the ones some Ji leads tend to build. But living in the moment just for fun looks pretty meaningless to me anyway. And it always was like that, so I don't really know if Fi development prompted such a big change for me.
    But, on the other hand, if I'd watch the first video I posted on the old forum and then my newest one...I believe back then I used to identify more with a playful, chill person, still lacking a clear purpose in life and with all roads open than I do now. 🙂

    #17343
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Let us know if we can help in any way !

    Everything everyone's written has already been so instrumental/helpful and I'm taking tons of notes! Seeing everything as an internal relationship within oneself, has really made things fall into place. It really seems like the missing piece. So much of other typologies is focused on manifested traits, and how the world meets those traits, but rarely is there a focus on the ebb-and-flow of dynamics within even the same person. Even 'function' models don't usually address this because of the sliding-scale hierarchy view, instead of viewing hierarchy as a complex, evolving internal relationship. And I also really enjoy getting psychological about this, and exploring these dynamics. It feels like a breath of fresh air.
    Alice - I'm wowed by your commentary and how it cross-references with Nadia! It also brings to mind something @elisaday said to me recently, when she said she totally identifies with the Se description, with no problem. And that other people see her more as the Ji l--- perfectionist than how she sees herself, which is more laid back. I found it telling that JiSe ll-- tend to hop on board more readily with Se compared to SeJi ll-- who doubt it more, but if my sense of things is correct, this is exactly what we'd expect.
    People really are quite colorful inside.
    (Not enough time to reply to everyone's posts atm, but I'm thoroughly enjoying them)

    #17345
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Bera

    I will not explain it in a passionate, heartfelt way, but I don’t think everything I do or everything everybody does is meaningless, hence the only way to live life is to enjoy every moment to the fullest !  There are valuable things we can (and must !) do because this is our duty as long as we have the possibility to do them !

    When I say “beyond right and wrong” I’m not saying that I lack a sense of meaning.  My sense of purpose has always been strong, but it’s my own.  And it’s not about “right and wrong.”  It’s more about being true to myself, and being honest about what is real.  The patterns that I see in the cosmos – I may not be able to explain them down to the nuance and I may not fully understand them, but they are real. My life’s purpose is to express this experience accurately, to be a vessel through which the very life-force may emerge.
    Typology is a language used to discuss those patterns.  So is the system of symbols that I created for my novel.  So I am quite intense about getting those premises right.  I don’t care about ‘this word and that word’ but rather, I strive to feel the underlying pulse beneath the behaviors.  I always knew that coming up with a more tangible system (which someone like @Ivory has much more hope of accomplishing than I do) would be the key to expressing it to others.  I use my Se magnetism and leadership to draw the crowd so we would continue an ongoing realistic dialogue to refine our understanding and also have potential to be systemized, rather than vaguely described as vibes and underlying tempos.  I’ll never get credit for a final product; I’ll just get hate groups against me for disagreeing with people's typings - but I’ll be a step on the ladder for someone else to finish the job. And for once I’m ok with that because the need to develop this language feels cosmically important to me.  And while we’re at it, let’s not even get into the sacrifices I have made to sing through my whisper, to finish my novel (editing for 7 years!), to survive this ongoing illness.  My determination to live out my purpose is a force of nature unto itself.
    So I am definitely not a nihilist, but my ethics aren't about 'right and wrong' per se. It's about tapping into the flow and communicating it, without ethical judgment for or against any aspect of it - just "is what it is." To be a vessel through which the cosmos emerges, I must allow some chaos, since this is part of reality.  I would not obstruct that process with ethical judgments. The ethical judgments about what SHOULD emerge, are what ruin communication of the truth.
    I guess this is why I consider myself Ni ego, even though I often think Se ego is better. But I also don’t care about momentary indulgences – in fact, the simplest way to say this is that it BORES me. It’s not IMMERSIVE and sensually emotionally stimulating.  I am not capable of running away from my emotions and any attempt to do so would be BORING because I’d be split in two, and could not get immersed in anything.  Maybe some people (like gut types in enneagram, 3s who are generally more athletic etc) are more about the sensual and physical momentary stimulation, and running away from what’s inside them – but as a four, I need to feel my emotions saturating me. I love working out with headphones – I need the music to mirror my insides and match the tempo of my rage. If there weren’t headphones I would be so bored working out, but with the emotional intense music tapping into my raw soul, that physical stimulation drives the sentiment through me to the core and I experience something cathartic as I let any boundaries dissolve into this fury. Afterwards, I am reborn.
    I relate to Kylo Ren. The flow comes from the depth of emotion for him. He’s a brute rager when he’s alone but when he’s in love and running on passion, he is smooth as the wind.  He does not belong to any side.  (The particular way this manifests for him is 9-fix, as well, but that's a story for another day.)  He is guided by a need to dig deep into his own dark emotions as well as the light – which draws him away both from the light and the dark side.  He is son of the light (Leia) and grandson of the dark (Vader), and his very genes are written to embrace and express all of himself, never to be loyal to a “side” – but only to his heart. I believe he is also a four. The actor is probably NiFe 6w5 but he plays the character in a more chaotic, immediate Se way.  It’s arguable the character is Ni lead too and the Se is more of a shadow, but either way it’s relatable to me.
    If I were to take on a physical art, it would be martial arts - which would be immersive (for me personally) because it requires such intense concentration and it really forces you into the zone - and in the end it has meaning. It harkens back to a more civilized time (in my opinion), it draws on 'the force' as we know it, rather than just being a coward shooting a gun and not having to even look at your victim's face... etc.  It's more humane if one has to kill at all.  But martial arts is more about avoiding killing, just mastering the moves so you can be a protector.  It's also beautiful like a dance, and through that dance I feel like I could perform something meaningful, the flow of my very soul.  And this particular dance is timeless; not dependent on what country you live in or what era you were born in. Martial arts tap into something universal. Of course I'm not talking about one specific art or the other; but the mastery of these moves, and the need for a protector who taps into the flow and respects life. It's universal and timeless, therefore meaningful.
    I have extreme ethics concerning the flow itself, the force, the cosmos, and how I choose to  tap into it.  I don’t watch tv or do other things people consider “stimulating” because I feel it clogs the mind and clouds one’s ability to be in touch with their true nature.  I have felt this way since I was a YOUNG CHILD.  Back then, not watching tv was an impulse because my entire body and being reacted to the static and the false picture.  My entire body cringes at video games, people pouring so much of their personal energy and character into someone else’s world.  I don’t want to waste one of my characters and her development on someone else’s video game with all its arbitrary constraints – I want to allow her to come to life as a creature aligned with nature, pure and true, into a book.  Typology is a language that helps me understand different types of characters on a gut level, and tap more deeply into their energy when my own would otherwise block that relationship.
    So you see I am very specific about ethics regarding my ‘state of mind,’ and always was, even before Fi developed. But the ethics are about how to embrace that which is genuinely personal and universal, and avoid being tainted by ethical do's and dont's that are incidental.  This, to me, is purity.  And in my opinion it’s very Se-Ni, a type of purity that Fi and Te don’t touch. Especially because I FELT this in my gut, and I practiced it before I even understood why.  As for you Bera – you are SeFi with A LOT of superego. 2w1 in the lead, and heavy super-ego wings on your fixes. So it makes sense that you would want a solid system of right and wrong by which to hold yourself accountable. (I don't want to reduce you to that, but that's the gist; you can add nuance if you like.) Whereas for me as a four with low superego, it’s more about reaching the line to 1 through inner purity and being ‘true to myself’ which is much more layered than it might sound, since ‘true to myself’ means true to my humanity, and understanding the meaning of human nature itself. But for me, in order to do that, I welcome a great deal of the chaos factor, to find what is really me, really human, really real, really cosmic, really universal. Like Kylo Ren, I don’t care if I am dark or light, as long as I am a vessel through which the genuine life force emerges.  However, unlike him, the convictions I do have are unbreakable, and I will defend them to the death.  So in his position, I am not sure I would have "joined the dark side." I would have gone rogue or started my own army for my cause, not for Darth This or that.  That's the 8 fix.
    Getting back to topic.. it simply is not immersive to do something that is meaningless to oneself. The need for “random stimulation” is more of a need to distract oneself from one’s suffering, rage or anxiety, which is a mechanism in some (not all) 3s, 7s, 8s, 9s etc… but there are many Se lead 4s and 5s popping up among celebs, and they certainly do not share this need to distract themselves from their inner mind — instead they use the Se to create something that mirrors their inner mind and/or reflects their inner emotions – which creates a (sometimes unfortunate) separation from the physical world, and even their own body. That’s why I don’t think physical need, or even escapism, is paramount for Se, but rather IMMERSION.  One can be immersed in physical, mental, or emotional stimulation, but a Se type would aim to create an aesthetic environment which is conducive to this experience, rather than just ignore the physical environment, because if there are distracting stimuli in the physical environment, then they won’t be immersed. Auburn covered these dynamics perfectly – immersion in the top two segments, and the physical environment in the ergonomics and aesthetics segment.  The part that I was uneasy about was ‘restlessness’ because it assumed someone WANTS to be distracted from what’s inside them and run away to some pointless venture as opposed to, say, exploring the anger or emotion in full force, and also that the delinquency and addiction sections, while accurate, might benefit from reminding the reader that it’s really about the absolute immersion, not the physical or substance aspect itself, even though those are common manifestations. But he basically said that I think.
    Anyway to sum this up, I'd say there's a sense that the will of the world is expressing itself through me, rather than saying I'm beholden to ethics.  The will of the world has its own ethics, its own pulse, its own life - and that is the force which guides me. In this sense, Socionics is right to call Se "Force" - but it's about being attuned with the world's rhythm moment to moment, as Auburn described so brilliantly. And when you're a Se athlete, musician, or even writer - you tap into that rhythm and discipline yourself to express it with increasing flow and nuance.  When the lack of talent gets in the way, then you can't really get into the flow. But once the art is mastered through discipline, then the flow runs through you, and that flow itself, guides you.

    #17378
    Sander
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    [quote]*scurries back into cave*[/quote]

    @auburn
    I hope you keep the shadow functions in mind. Even when our nature lacks them, we still relate to those functions in others. And then our culture reflects them anyway. So, all eight subpersonalities are relevant for our development.
    For example, you sometimes seem allergic to Te (like how you ended the Te signals video). Yet that also affects your relationship with Fe.
    In my case, I had to make friends with Ni to relieve my Si. Now, I can safely allow my inner Si-girl to posess me. (And then punish her, lol)

    #17394
    GreenCoyote
    Participant
    • Type: SeTi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Holy Guaca moley!
     
    dude, this is going To be revolutionary!
     
    i’m so excited to see the descriptions on the development levels! It makes so much sense to me how i have always strongly related to Fe values, more specifically adaptive Fe values.
    i am absolutely loving where this is going. Auburn you are a very smart man. I also will have a new submission for you soon. Another friend of mine. Just waiting to film his second video. Man. I am blown away, honestly. AND everything you have done so far is great with the site. I love how it is all organized now and the information is really helpful.
    😁😁😁

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