Celebrity Database, the CT website, etc.

Home Forums The General Hall Celebrity Database, the CT website, etc.

  • Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    As soon as my husband and I joined CT, we became patrons.  But at this point, speaking from the point of view of a patron – I am not getting the things I paid for.  As a friend, I will probably want to remain a patron, but if I were looking at this strictly from a business point of view, I would definitely have withdrawn my patronage by now.   I am saying this because there may be others who feel similarly – that they are not getting what they paid for.

    The new model, frankly, doesn’t interest me at this point. I support any exploration by the theorists, but it is laid out in a strange way that makes it impossible for me and also, many others I have consulted, to read.  We just don’t get it.  I asked around to see if I was crazy but no. It seems pretty much unanimous “Wtf” among the people I’ve spoken to.

    In the meantime, the celebrity database was my biggest interest from the start, and it hasn’t expanded. I know you’ve done a lot of soft typings which simply haven’t been entered into the database. Why not?  Isn’t there someone you could pay a little bit to enter in all that data, if you don’t have the time?  How hard can it be?  I would be willing to be that person if you can’t find anyone who is more active.

    Even though I haven’t been posting, I do visit the site regularly to check out the celebrity typings and database. That is my biggest interest. I can piece together the psychological commonalities on my own, especially using your amazing old descriptions as a guide. I know that I critiqued and griped about some of the descriptions, but I only did that because I thought they were genius and so much better than anything else out there. So I just had so much passion about wanting to make them a little bit better, and cover the major themes that were missing. But you actually listened and updated some things, and I was thrilled with the results!  It was not an impossible task, just something that the community helped you to tweak, and the result was favorable in the eyes of many people, including myself.  And with those behavior profiles and myths – not everyone has to relate to every last bit; you made that very clear. But it provides enough of a guideline for those who are interested in psychology to piece together the meaning of types from reading your old descriptions and looking at celebrities who share certain typings. The problem right now is the lack of celebrities.

    And now, are you even doing soft typings anymore?

    My point is, if you want to theorize about stuff that makes no sense to anyone I have asked – it’s cool. But please don’t forget the celebrity database.  For many people, especially those less active – that is the meat of the site. And that’s what I am personally paying for.

    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Right! So we just had some discussions about this on Discord today.

    There was a period of internal tension in CT, over the past six months or so, as I thought about how to handle the computational elements and Model 2. But that tension has now been resolved. The solution comes in the form of retaining both Model 1 and Model 2, in full, which actually allows both to augment the other, while neither is reduced in scale or relevance. Model 1 will not be discontinued or discarded anytime in the future. That includes the mythological elements and psychodynamic relevancy.

    After thinking a lot about this, I realized Model 1 and 2 are both necessary to address different things. Model 1 is capable of approximating qualia, taking a holistic, phenomenological approach to personhood, and integrating things like self perception and inter-subjectivity into the analysis. Model 2 is more quanitative, computational and scientific — but because of that, it cannot be as holistic as Model 1 when it comes to personhood, since science focuses on measuring a few variables very well, rather than a whole bunch of them synthetically. Moving forward the two models will exist side by side and grow together, addressing different needs.

    As you may have seen, the website homepage has been revived back to its previous look, and the /articles/ page has also been brought back — in this effort to reintegrate Model 1 materials. And more articles will follow, which also come from a Jungian psychotherapy perspective, since there’s a lot more to discuss! Also Animal, thanks for making this thread — I was already thinking about how this hasn’t been addressed but this gives me an opportunity to do so.

    As for your other point — about the database not growing — I agree. Today I also shared my task list on Discord but I’ll post it here too ( https://www.notion.so/Cognitive-Typology-Task-List-57fac9d023c64e649820cce4cc9755a0 ) my goal is to more aggressively tackle the missing elements to get Model 1 to completion within the next month or two if at all possible. And that includes expanding the database.

    I have a goal in mind that I brought up to Delrake, to add at least 10 samples to the database a week, starting now. The reason I’m sharing this task list is for multiple reasons, but one of them is accountability — so members can hold me (and any other teams members) to it. But the other reason is community feedback, in case there’s a task that’s not on the list that should be there, or some that are but don’t need to be.

    I have to balance all this with my personal life, so I will try my best to meet these goals fast, given my IRL constraints. Which brings me to my personal life. About six months ago or so I ran into a financial deficit, and I basically had to cut down most of my time on CT to a minimum. I closed down visual readings and focused a lot more on working.

    Right, I’ve seen the Patreon support go down and I wouldn’t expect anything else — since I haven’t been keeping to that schedule or offering new celebrity readings. I had to prioritize my own finances there for a while, which add up to more than what patreon could support, so I increased my hours with my boss instead.

    But now I’m a little better off than before, and I’ll stick to my schedule of adding 10 samples per week, whether or not there are any patreons supporting it, but because I think it’s important to get to 1000 uploaded samples. And I’m so thankful to those who have given anything. And thank you especially Animal 🙂 you’ve been so crazy supportive!

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn
    Thank you for answering! And I’m glad you took this in the spirit that I intended it, which was to be supportive. Reading it over I thought “does this sound blunt or rude?” But I couldn’t tell. 😀

    Anyway.. all of that makes perfect sense. I’m sorry to hear you had financial difficulty – and that makes perfect sense in this messed up time with the pandemic etc.  We’re having those difficulties too so I totally understand how it sets everything behind. I’m glad it’s getting better for you. 🙂

    Also excited for the updates!  And I see, this clears up some of my confusion about the purpose of the new model and where it sits relative to the old one.

    Since you opened up the typings again, I see you raised the price. And even though that’s harder for me as a customer (since I want to send in my whole family if they ever agree to do it, dammit), I fully support that move. You’re doing really detailed work here and you and the team deserve to be paid well for that in my opinion. I just hope it won’t make the cost too prohibitive for people during the pandemic which might cause you to make less money overall. But I’m sure you guys thought about all of this already.  One thing I was wondering was “Am I paying an extra $20 to get a typing in this new system which doesn’t make sense to me or to anyone in my community yet?”  If so, you might want to give people the option to just get a model 1 typing which makes the cost less prohibitive? But these are just suggestions, or me “thinking aloud” as a customer. Obviously feel free to ignore them. I’m going to pay for my typings either way, even if I have to eat rice for a week, dammit.  😀

    fayest42
    Participant
    • Type: FiNe
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I hope no one minds if I add some of my related thoughts to this conversation.

    Re: patreon, I’m happy to continue my (very small) contribution even with the soft typings being on pause, but for future reference I think it would be a better business practice to let the patrons know ahead of time if something like that will be happening so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not to continue being a patron.

    Re: Model 2, I will say that I think the updates to the signals and the moves to make typing less affected by confirmation bias are great. However I’m skeptical about the pseudocode and the usefulness of trying to describe exactly what the functions are doing in our brains. It seems to me unlikely that we are going to be able to figure that out, especially given that none of us are neuroscientists. The way the brain works is incredibly complex and not well understood even by experts, let alone us lay folk. And I don’t see it as having much use in attracting the interest of either customers or scientists. It’s too complex to be of interest to most potential customers and I imagine scientists would just say there’s no evidence to support it. In my opinion, the best way forward is not theorizing about the nitty gritty details of how our brains work, but rather data collection – gather as much vultological and psychological data from people (whether they be celebrities or volunteers or customers) as we can and then find correlations.

    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @fayest42

    That makes sense to me too. One concern of mine regarding the new model is that time is not infinite, so I am concerned that the time being put into CT will not be put into the things that really appeal to the public and also provide relevant information. You put to words the feeling I had – it’s unprovable to scientists, and too complex for laymen. Of course, I don’t understand it even enough to comment on it, but that’s my FEELING.

    Delrake
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Re: Patreon

    I think Patreon is not the best fit for CT given the nature of the project and Auburn’s style of doing things. Patreon is more suited towards full-time content creators as an alternative way to do business outside of ad revenue, and selling merchandise. I personally use it to donate to the project and support Auburn’s “content” but I can see how others might feel like it’s not worth it with the way it’s designed.


    @Auburn
    , it might be worth looking into https://www.buymeacoffee.com/patreon-alternative. Lot of upsides to this platform and I think it’s more fitting for CT and your style overall.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Delrake.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @delrake – oh I like the idea of BuyMeaCoffee. I might just do that, yeah. The CT project doesn’t always grow with clearly delineated contents (i.e. – like a youtube video per week), but with cumulative long-term efforts to create a master work – so, more like writing a book. I like BuyMeaCoffee’s one-time payments option too. It seems much more chill.

    One concern of mine regarding the new model is that time is not infinite, so I am concerned that the time being put into CT will not be put into the things that really appeal to the public and also provide relevant information.


    @animal
    – So, for the time being I’m switching over to working on Model 1 materials, after having been focused almost fully on Model 2 whenever I made CT progress the last months. I’ve got a list of things to address in the task list linked above, including things like writing the development level profiles for Pe lll-, and Je l—, etc. Those are very relatable things that help ground the theory, and which we need more of.

    It’s too complex to be of interest to most potential customers and I imagine scientists would just say there’s no evidence to support it.


    @fayest42
    – I can see the concern here, and how Model 2 would seem not to have a market to address. And I agree that Model 2 would not easily satisfy neuroscientists. However, the way I see it is that the primary purpose of Model 2 isn’t to persuade neuroscientists about a realistically human algorithm –  certainly not in the short term.

    The most important short term reason why I see value in Model 2 is for internal theoretical rigor. Code is just logic put into a human language that is more precise than what regular words can parse. It allows for greater clarity, and the more carefully you define things, the more insight there is. And if nothing else, Model 2 pushes for logical rigor in the model in a way that cannot be done without using a toolset like coding. It could be other toolsets, but the point is that without pushing for rigor in this sense, we don’t really have a high enough resolution available to resolve core problems.

    For example, I literally ran into the limits of the blunt tool of words, when trying to parse out type differences. I couldn’t parse out Ne from Se without resorting to adjectives which, in theory, either could jive with depending on what they understand by them. I can’t describe Fi vs Ti in a way that satisfies all Fi users and Ti users without resorting to a descriptor which, in theory, both could relate to at different times and places — because all human experience is available to all types.

    In a way, every dictionary word has a “meaning” of its own for the Fi user and Ti user — so that there are Fi ways to be democratic, Ti ways to be democratic, Fi ways to be individualist and eccentric, and Ti ways to be individualist and eccentric. You could do this all day. No word is free of this because every word we each have in our minds is associated to some phenomenology that we, as our type, have access to from our typological perspective. Thus, natural language is fundamentally the false place to try to differentiate out types. For any word or characteristic that you try to assign to one type, the opposite type will feel that this word applies to them too in some capacity.

    And we know there is a difference, despite this. We sense that what X person means by “word” is different than what Y person means by “word”, even though both are using the same word. But what is that difference? Do we describe it using yet another adjective? The way I see it, this is the “limit” I’m describing. And it’s why formalizing a logical description of the differences (a code, as an analogy) is important. Rather than keeping things within the vagueness of “sensing” the difference without knowing how to formulate it, we can try to actually formulate it, so we know what the difference is from a procedural perspective (metabolism). The way information is parsed, moment by moment, differs between types, so that every word and experience is available to them too, but the formatting of that information in their mind differs.

    Without describing that format itself, we resort to words like the ‘flavor’ of the experience, the ‘qualia’ of the experience, etc. And that’s fine too, but it gets us into problematic territory when we genuinely wanna know the differences and can’t successfully talk about them. So we gotta have a language to describe the differences precisely.

    ~

    Plus, you guys are all way too smart for anything less than this. Seriously. This community has a lot of very sharp minds who know how to differentiate a belief from an essence, and you all ask very keen/hard questions whenever any adjective is presented for one type and not another.

    Honestly, I think the code just seems a bit scary and unrelatable right now because it hasn’t been properly explained and also because I’m an amateur at programming. But fundamentally I really see a future in which it’s a rich source of insights and it clarifies things all the way down to the behaviors of Model 1. Call it a vision I see, haha.

    But anyhow, I’m gonna hold off on Model 2 for a while here anyway, so no worries about time shortage. 🙂

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Auburn.
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @animal – as for the readings price, yes I’d like to bring it back down in the near future for the basic reading. I have to (re)optimize the reading process, since it became more complex lately – and I might have inflated the time-per-report with the codifier changes. It’s a time management issue, and I think I know how to solve it soon by having the non-timestamped option be the default, and consolidating all the independent PDFs into one.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Auburn.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Auburn.
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @Auburn
    Awesome! I’m happy to hear that.  In the past couple days, a few people in my group decided they wanted readings, but they felt the $50 was prohibitive, especially for those who wanted more than one reading (like… for family). This came up only after I wrote my post, even though they didn’t know about my post. 😀  So I was going to bring it up again. I’m glad you’ll lower the price- because I know you’ll get a lot of customers even in my immediate circle. And they don’t need readings in the new system I’m assuming.

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