A few questions about attitudes of the heart
September 2, 2021

Home Forums Model 1 Discussions A few questions about attitudes of the heart

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  • #30156
    Hrafn
    Participant
    • Type: SiTe
    • Development: l-ll
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Evaluating heartude

    I'm curious about whether are any defined methods or criteria for evaluating whether a person has a light or dark heartude. Is it just a matter of their overall energy or feel, or is there something more explicit that I've missed?

    Similarly, Auburn, a while back you mentioned that you’d recently recognized that a person could be high in both adaptive & directive energy, for example, or low in both, or high in one and low in the other. If I remember right, I think you said the strength of these energies correlates with overall emotionality. I’m curious if you could say a little bit more about what it looks like, vultologically, for someone to be high vs. low in both attitudes of the heart.

     

    “Seelie” energy in adaptive Fe user?

    Secondly, I’m wondering if anyone could explain if there’s anything, specifically, that makes Shauna Shapiro’s energy adaptive, rather than seelie.

    I find her energy has radiant & otherwise seelie qualia in some ways. In terms of current signals, she clearly has a nasal-breathy voice. However, I also see that she otherwise has clear Fe signals, such as coordinated eye-head movements, symmetrical lips, horizontal curtain smiles, etc. Is this signal-mixing? Or does it fall within the range of adaptive Fe?

    I feel like I might have seen other examples like this before, although I can’t remember specifically.

    It makes me wonder, if an adaptive Fe-user had a seelie parent, or was otherwise surrounded by lots of seelie energy, would they start picking up some of it as sort of like a long-term version of adaptive emulation?

     

    • This topic was modified 3 weeks ago by Hrafn.
    • This topic was modified 3 weeks ago by Hrafn.
    • This topic was modified 3 weeks ago by Hrafn.
    • This topic was modified 3 weeks ago by Hrafn.
    #30161
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    Heya Hrafn,

    I recently initiated an adjustment, to address this problem, with the newest codifier: https://cognitivetype.com/codifier/

    I haven't posted about it yet on the forum, but this might be a good opportunity to do so.

    There is now a section in the codifier called "Em" (which stands for emotional signals), and they are as follows:

    Eu-1: Responsive Nodding
    Eu-2: Polite Smiling
    Eu-3: Bashful Body Movements
    Eg-4: Upset Mouth Tension
    Eg-5: Accusational Pushing
    Eg-6: Dismisive Gazes

    The "Eu" signals stand for "emotionally unguarded" (which is seelie/adaptive), and the "Eg" signals stand for "emotionally guarded" (which is unseelie/directive). This way, we now have official signals that determine emotional attitude, as either unguarded or guarded. I've moved to these terms and away from agreeable/disagreeable, since I feel there is less baggage attached to these terms, and they more properly reflect the attitudes in question. Also, I realized it's best not to conflate this category with the Big Five category of agreeableness in the end-- since that will most certainly cause problems down the line.

    Anyhow, there are 3 signals for each camp, and they are much more precisely defined now. I won't say they are perfectly defined, but at least there is a formalized definition for them now, rather than having it merged with the J function axes. Which brings me to the next point:

    Decoupling from the J axes

    I did not really want to decouple the attitudes from the J axes because I think they're tied together rather intimately. And I still think this is the case. But Codifier 3 is designed to avoid intersectionality, and measure the core constituents, which then come together into intersections.

    So, seelie is the combination of Fi/Te emotional expression + unguarded. Therefore, what we need is to identify Fi/Te signals + unguarded signals, and that is, in essence, seelieness. Although, there is some issue with this non-intersectional approach, because there are some emergent effects that matter.

    For example, the old codifier had Fe Head Shakes and Te Head Shakes, ....but now we just have Je Head Shakes and either Fe/Ti measured, or Te/Fi candid signals. And together, Je + Measured = Fe Warm Head Nods, and Je + Candid = Te Sassy Head Nods. This is more "clean" and compact, but then we don't get to see the nuances of how the intersections look.

    Solution:

    To solve this problem, my aim (and I still gotta get to this) ...is to have the vultology Wiki pages (i.e. https://cognitivetypology.com/index.php?title=PR-2_Head_Shakes) have sub-sections on them with the variants. So the way the wiki pages will be structued in the future is like so:

    Je-2 Head Shakes

    General GIF

    General GIF

    General GIF

    • a. Te Head Shakes
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant
    • b. Fe Head Shakes
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant

    ~ ~ ~

    Anyhow... to come back to your point about seelieness. The signal in the codifier called "Eu-3: Bashful Body Movements" is an example of this new refinement. Originally this was Unbridled Radiation, but in reality this is not wholly unavailable to Fe users, and Fe users have a variant of that. These new emotional attitude signals also have GIFs in them for both J axes. So for example, under Bashful Body Movements we see:

    Two familiar Fi users:

    But also Alpha Anne Hathaway:

    ^ Alphas like Anne Hathaway also have their version of this, and the lack of this inclusion was causing reading errors -- especially with Fe/Ti women who are more than capable of appearing disarming and bashful too. But there's a difference still from Fi's version of it. So the structure now should be something like this:

    root signal:

    Eu-3 Bashful Body Movements

    GIF

    GIF

    GIF

    • Fi/Te Unbridled Radiation
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant
    • Fe/Ti (name pending)
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant
      • GIF Variant

    We talked a little on Discord about a name for the Fe/Ti variant of the bashful body movements, but we have not landed upon a name just yet.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by Auburn.
    #30163
    Auburn
    Keymaster
    • Type: TiNe
    • Development: l--l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    I'll drop this off here as well, from Discord:

    Oh, cool, some names have changed New Emotional attitudes too

    yes lol, people have been very confused by the emotional attitude signals (for good reason) because they've been the least well defined. this is still a work in progress, but i believe this does a better job than before. there are now 3 signals for each attitude.

    i've renamed "Social Emulation" to "Responsive Nodding", since the former does not specify specifically what movements are happening. The latter specifies that the signal is one of actively showing affirmations of active listening, etc.
    similarly, "Polite Smiling" is present, which often goes hand in hand with responsive nodding, but not necessarily. the two can exist independently.
    these two were sorta merged into "Social Emulation" previously.
    and Bashful Body Movements. Originally this was seen more as seelie Fi, and I do need to emphasize that this is still a certain reality (i.e. these signals look different for Fi and Fe). The Fi version of Bashful Body Movements = Unbridled Radiation, but there is also an Fe/Ti version to it. And without including it, it can lead to mistypings
    so the GIFs also have at least one Fe/Ti and Fi/Te sample in them now. like Alpha Anne Hathaway here https://media.giphy.com/media/DeBVTlUJEaxiaxhFTY/giphy.gif

    ^ Bashful Body Movements
    (but = not Fi)
    In the CT Wiki, i am planning to re-insert all the "variants" of all these signals in the pages themselves (which were kinda lost in translation from the previous codifier). So for example, Je Head Pushes will have sub-sections in the Wiki like so: Je-1: Head Pushes - - Fe Warm Head Pushes - - Te Snippy Head Pushes ...and likewise... Eu-3: Bashful Body Movements - - Fi Unbridled Radiation - - Fe (name pending)

    I think this should lead to the best accuracy and standardization of methodology (hopefully)

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by Auburn.
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