Overcoming limbic system reliance for Fi/Te differentiation from Fe/Ti

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May 5, 2020 at 12:22 pm #19604
Robert Mitchell
Participant
- Type: NeFi
- Development: l-l-
- Attitude: Seelie
Warning, constructive criticism and solutions ahead. @Auburn
One of the obvious weaknesses of the CT system is that Fi/Te identification is heavily reliant on limbic system derived Vultology. However the limbic system predates the evolution of cognitive function in the consciousness.
This means that while it is true that All Fi/Te users will employ limbic Vultology, there is also the potential for some sensitive Fe/Ti types to also have limbic involvement to mimic Fi/Te Vultology. It should be obvious that anxiety will causes most of the phenomena of Fi while disrupting the control needed to make Fe coordinated and soothing motions. Everything will be rushed and uncoordinated. Of course anxiety is also associated with introspections, which could be considered a shadow form of Fi use and so Vultology would be correct in terms of detecting function use but incorrect in the theory that the Vultology is derived from genetics. (This by the way is a good example of Ti semantics!)
However I believe I have found possible solution for that problem that can identify native Fe/Ti from Fi/Te using a non limbic method.
first to the background.
Fe/Ti appears to be repurposed from nurturing/family instincts in animals. The combination of altruistic behaviour (risking oneself to protect offspring) and use of description and mimicry to pass on knowledge is fundamental to Fe/Ti society.
Fi/Te on the other hand is relates to the pecking order dynamics of the Dominance/submission societal system. Identity plays a key role in this system for knowing your place in the pecking order. Te is associated with aggression, (as can be seen in the square smile which is related to teeth baring) while Fi help people identify other people on the same level to associate with
This leads to two parallel societal systems with different economies
In Fe/Ti the identity systems consists of tribe or outsider, communication is focused on semantics, or accurate description to both teach and prevent miscommunication. If you watch videos of Fe/Ti users they primarily emphasise nouns and adjectives with both voice and movements. They can also use a form of descriptive sign language, which I suspect is Ti.
Fi/Te on the other hand communicate value through shared emotions and deeds(prestige) Their voice and hand motions therefor emphasise verbs, emotions, and things that are of personal importance.
Anyway this makes sense to me, hopefully someone else finds my musings of interest.
Cheers
Rob
Ps from a neuroscience perspective Ne(and to a lesser extent Se) are anti emergent and disrupt specialisation in order to facilitate adaptability. If shadow function use is possible then Ne doms with heterozygous genetics is where you will see it. (From a Ti strong ENTP with shadow Ni (& Fi based on Vultology)
Let me know if you want any further feedback on your system, us Ne leads need folks to bounce off or we get bored real quick!
May 5, 2020 at 1:27 pm #19605
Alice
Participant
- Type: FiSe
- Development: ll--
- Attitude: Unseelie
I have noticed anecdotally that a few PeJi l-l- people in my life tend to have a lower tolerance for stress, and that their response is usually a total limbic system override, causing them to become overcome with radiating anxiety. This is usually the case with the SeFi l-l-s in my life, but if seen it with Ne users and Fe users too. I think this is an energetics phenomenon though, a kind of childish (Pe) use of regal (Je) energy. Je power being revved up and scattered by the Pe function.
I don't think we can come to any final conclusions linking the Fi/Te axis to a wholly limbic-based psychology. That's a pretty big claim without much supporting evidence, though I do understand where you're coming from. A lot of Fi/Te signals are "emotional" in nature, and Te users specifically do have a reputation for having high energy and low self-control. I don't think this reputation can be confused for fact though, since we can't look at every single high-Te user and do an accurate psychological profile. We can only infer about metabolism, because that at least is consistent, though still a gigantic undertaking that takes a lot of guesswork.
I also would like to point out pure Fi leads and Te leads with conscious Pe or Fi. In the Fi lead, there is visual emotionality on the face and in the body, but it isn't usually overwhelming limbic overload style fear or anxiety. It's simply either a complete openness or a distant, closed-off nature. In Te leads with conscious Pe or Fi, we can actually see them kind of chill out, and in the case of Te l-l-, it seems they settle into their role as a confident force of productive energy. There is a confidence in them that doesn't much include the pure Te overwhelming articulation method of interaction. The same goes for Te with conscious Fi, though it seems that has to do with a loss of some of that confidence and energy, but a gain in control and life-focus.
May 10, 2020 at 1:32 pm #19658
Bera
Moderator
- Type: SeFi
- Development: ll--
- Attitude: Seelie
Interesting point of view @singularity !

It should be obvious that anxiety will causes most of the phenomena of Fi while disrupting the control needed to make Fe coordinated and soothing motions.

I think this is not completely correct, though there might be some truth in it that I don't fully grasp yet.
The issue is Fi users still show Fi signals in moments when they are not anxious.
Also, no matter how confident we become, we will not start to show Fe signals (beside some signal mixing).
I don't think anxiety keeps us from making coordinated and soothing motions, I rather think the inability to coordinate might cause anxiety.
At the same time, I don't believe confidence makes us modulate Te, but rather the ability to articulate in a convincing way leads to building up confidence.
I could be wrong though and they could be interrelated, each impacting the other simultaneously.

Te is associated with aggression, (as can be seen in the square smile which is related to teeth baring)

This seems highly probable to me too. If we do something that animals also do, in the exact same circumstances, chances are it derives from a similar mental process. We don't really know but the thought has crossed my mind several times too; it seems like a possibility indeed.

If you watch videos of Fe/Ti users they primarily emphasise nouns and adjectives with both voice and movements.
(...)
Fi/Te on the other hand communicate value through shared emotions and deeds(prestige) Their voice and hand motions therefor emphasise verbs, emotions, and things that are of personal importance.

Can you give some examples?
Are you sure high Ti don't emphasize the nouns and adjectives in their attempt to define certain concepts? And high Fe still emphasize verbs?
Also, do you think there is any significant difference between Fi-Te and Ti-Fe in how we connect sentences in compound/complex sentences? (I hope I am using these terms correctly. In Romanian a sentence built of many other sentences is called fraza, so I used to believe the English correspondent is phrase but it looks like I was wrong. 🙂 )
My hypothesis was that Fi-Te sentences (especially high/conscious Te) seem to cascade by the pattern - A leads to B which leads to C and D and that Ti-Fe sentences might also take different patterns, including some non causal and more sophisticated correlations, but now by comparing different samples I don't really know if there is truth in this either.

@teatime what do you think?
May 10, 2020 at 5:08 pm #19668
Tea
Participant
- Type: NeFi
- Development: l--l
- Attitude: Seelie
@bera, I agree with the A-> B thing. Fe/Ti users won't explain causility point by point per se. (Fi/Te and Ne/Si are both more causal than Se/Ni and Fe/Ti). Instead, Fe users will use analogies already understood by the audience. The presentation is the focus. I haven't done syntactic analysis, but FeTi is especially focused on prosody. Prosody aligns itself with syntax (the hypothesis is syntax *first*), but Fe/Ti users are able to adapt their syntax to fit into a more aesthetic prosodic framework. It's holistic.
May 10, 2020 at 8:25 pm #19669
Bera
Moderator
- Type: SeFi
- Development: ll--
- Attitude: Seelie
Yes ! I did a little text analysis earlier but a monster was born and I can't possibly share it. :)))
I think Fe-Ti also use the A->B reasoning, but a little less often than us. And then something is added.
I think Auburn explained it perfectly here :

Ti/Fe bakes the [biotic axioms] into Je, and
Fi/Te bakes the [biotic axioms] into Ji.

What is added are these biotic axioms.
But then this means ther ARE Fe biotic axioms. Is this correct? Or are we talking about a Ti-Fe combination?
If it is correct, then it follows that there are also Te abiotic axioms (since the axioms are then not simply Ji's domain). Which I believe is true but I know many people disagree. I think one of them is connected to stating the facts as they are. This seems like a small and simple "Te moral code". I have tried to find it in Fi but I could not. It is obvious to me that I need to be heavily modulating Te in order to feel this as being an absolute necessity. It does not seem like an Fi principle that Te just borrows and uses. It seems much more like an articulator principle in itself.
I think I diverged. I also wanted to say it makes total sense that it is hollistic. Then this would create these introductions and further connected points. I will see if I can show you some, I must search for them a little. I can only say semantic disclaimers seem to be a sub category. So, semantic disclaimers can be an example by themselves but I think it's a more general tendency that they are just a part of.
May 11, 2020 at 7:44 pm #19692
a.k.a.Janie
Participant
- Type: FiSe
- Development: ll--
- Attitude: Unseelie
My hypothesis was that Fi-Te sentences (especially high/conscious Te) seem to cascade by the pattern – A leads to B which leads to C and D

That is is exactly how I tend to describe scientific experiments. Te is concerned with abiotic causality and empiricism. Although, my Te is weak, and maybe that's why I often think that I want to make sure everyone is on the same page (as far as understanding the relevant logical concepts and relationships), first and foremost. I suppose I expect everyone to decide for themselves if they think any of it is valuable to them. But if I am enthusiastic about it, I feel like I use that to maybe pique other people's interest as well.
I have watched many scientific presentations, and it does seem there is another group of people who don't do it that way--perhaps they find it boring or too obvious--rather they tend to want to go into more of the why this is important, where could it potentially lead, and what is interesting about it. Perhaps they expect everyone to do the logical thinking of the mechanics of the actual experiment, for themselves, and come together regarding the collectively determined biotic axioms determining its value.
May 13, 2020 at 9:03 am #19715
Robert Mitchell
Participant
- Type: NeFi
- Development: l-l-
- Attitude: Seelie
Yes you certainly see Te types being focused on clarity of purpose, which is part of the efficiency seeking sterotype. Ti on the otherhand tends to go into excess detail and focuses on definition rather than outcome.
Which comes back to the original theory, that a focus on actions in Te leads to an emphasis on actions during speech and movement. While the Ti focus on definition leeds similarly to emphasis on objective definition. This seems to work quite closely with Fe and its offsping teaching/nurturing role. The Fi focus on identity and emotions tends to show a different emphasis than Te towards emotions and anything personally important. You also see less use of group identifiers like we, although that tends to be context dependant. Anyone comunicating from a personal perspective will use "I" and Fi identity does leed to grouping of like individuals that can become we.
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