Home 2023 › Forums › The General Hall › CT Forum "Culture" and the Avoidance of Distinctions
I want to start out by saying that I think Auburn is brilliant. The vultology system he has introduced has cleared up so many widespread type misconceptions. Although I disagree with some of the descriptions and how they're currently presented, I appreciate that it's incredibly hard to write a description that covers every manifestation of a type without also being TOO general, and I could not do better myself. I also know that Auburn listens to the critiques, thinks about them, and decides how to proceed. Sometimes he has even been willing to change parts of the descriptions to reflect input from forum members which he feels is accurate and helpful.
So despite some disagreements about the information itself, which will likely be ongoing, I have nothing but absolute respect for Auburn - his vision, execution and attention to input, balanced with his own better judgment, are beyond admirable.
That said, I have a few grievances about the CT 'culture' and the way things operate, and I wanted to bring it to the open.
When I came here, my self-typing was unsettled. I had typed several people, though I still had alternatives open; but for the most part my "top guess" - if not my second guess at least - was accurate. I've been off base about a few, like my father - I had him in the right 'area' as a Ni conductor, but I had him at Je lead. That change in my understanding of Pi has taught me a lot about the system, the types, and myself.
The problem is, after months of hanging out on discord, I still feel completely incapable of landing a ballpark type for my mother or my brother. The people I had already typed either perfectly or close to accurately, doesn't really surprise me. I was already synthesizing many systems and discovering a way of looking at type which was very much in line with things Auburn was writing; I just lacked his systemic organization and a system to catch errors. So I was able to pin people's types, or come close, based on their psychology - even before learning vultology, but vultology fills in the gaps and leaves a much small margin of error.
Now I am slowly learning vultology and things are becoming more clear, but I still do not find myself much closer to understanding the psychology of types than I was before. I understand Ni better since my father got typed, but I still could not tell you if my mother is Ne/Si or Se/Ni.
What bothers me is, people here are very hesitant to make distinctions. When I bring up distinctions that are obvious and well known, like Ne tends to be 'divergent' and Se leans toward 'holeism' - then someone protests that I can't make any distinction until there are more statistics. Now, I'm not saying anything is absolute. There are different degrees, different manifestations of types; I get this. But what annoys me is that distinctions don't get explored, even as theories. Instead, many people are very eager to say "Well Alphas aren't "like" anything and Betas aren't "like" anything - and if you dare to point out trends that you notice, it's just conjecture unless you can prove it with statistics."
I understand the merit in this. It is obviously good to learn from experience and wait until there are more samples; and the more real life people we are looking at, the better. That said, this is not how my psychology works. For me, once I've closely studied 5-10 samples of two different types at different dev levels and compare them, I kind of... get the gist of the difference between the base types. This may be my Se-Ni 'holeism.' [As above, so below.]
I may not be good at articulating the gist, and I understand the need to be VERY precise. For instance, people have been honing my idea on Se, and pointing out distinctions. I have no problem with anyone being critical of how a type's nature is being articulated, but what bothers me is the reluctance to pay attention to the samples we actually have, in favor of saying "any type can do anything" and keeping everything wide open.
If we are honing in on the true 'basic nature' of a type, then 5 samples will not reap different results than 500 samples. So the "we don't know anything" and "we can't make distinctions" approach seems disingenuous. Observations of likeness between 5 people of the same type, especially since I know enneagram and can make sure to find people with different enneagrams - should be enough to start talking about the likenesses and coming up with theories about what they are, and how they are distinct from 5 people of a different type.
There is also this trend where I point out that three people who are Se lead (including a Se I---) don't resonate with the Se description, for the exact same reason - and people say "But the description is fine, because there are Se leads in the world who fit it." No, it's not fine. To me, a Se description should hone in on the most basic, primal points of Se. That should be the main focus of the description, and the offshoots spawn from there. There are different ways of thinking about things, and some people think "You're an exception" or "These 5 people may be exceptions to a wider trend" - but to me, if a good description gets to the very central nature of the type - there will not be exceptions. There may be parts of the description that work for some people and not others, but the general gist will hit the core of people who are that type. So waving me off as an exception, not to mention waving off the majority of Se leads in the chat as collective exceptions - won't help to get to the core. [Obviously, I'm using Se as an example. This principle applies to all types.]
I don't know , at this point, what else I can learn on discord. I'm no closer to typing the people I couldn't type before (like my mom , my brother) than I was when I got here. I find Auburn does take distinctions seriously and actually talks about them. When we miscommunicated a few times he was willing to say "Alpha vs. Gamma" and hone in on what might be going wrong, making a distinction; but then I felt like the trends were being drowned out by the collective voice singing "Well anyone can be anything, anyone can feel anything, anyone can say anything."
Anyway, this is more of my 'personal feelings' than me asking anyone to do anything. Just something I needed to get off my chest. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who feels this way, so I figured I'd put it out there for people to chew on. Obviously I appreciate that people do things differently than I do, and I wouldn't want anyone to try to be like me. 🙂 So this is just a reactionary 'point of view' that I figured I'd share, for whatever it's worth.
Writing descriptions that make everyone happy is definitely a challenge, especially since type can be so personal.
Seeing that vultology aims to be a reliable and accurate tool I can understand why a large amount of statistics is needed since it narrows the margin of error but I also feel it would take a long time to have a database big enough to draw new conclusions that already seem quite obvious.
Overall, I agree with everything you said and I wish I could expand your points further but unfortunately I can't since my English level doesn't allow me to be that expressive (it takes me tons of mental energy to just write this small paragraph).
Seeing that vultology aims to be a reliable and accurate tool I can understand why a large amount of statistics is needed since it narrows the margin of error but I also feel it would take a long time to have a database big enough to draw new conclusions that already seem quite obvious.
@celeste Well said! You summed up my point so well here, I'm surprised you are not happy with your English 😉
Thank you for your support and your post. It means a lot 🙂
I fully sympathize with the frustration you mention @animal - also thanks for writing this. Odd as it might seem, I'm actually not a fan of doing statistics. They feel like death to me, and it's one of the things that goes against my native state the most. It feels like reading a dry textbook for the 10th time, instead of gathering new and fresh material.
Just like you, it only takes me a few examples (sometimes even one sample being cross-referenced against many adjacent types) to "see" a trend. Doing the statistical work is like chewing cardboard. So I've been mostly putting-off doing rigid statistical comparisons (except in places like here and here) yet I'm deeply respectful of the process. In fact, it's impossible for CT to succeed and overtake other models without this advantage we have.
Where CT may be differentiated from other mbti/etc forums and communities -- is in that in CT we may actually have a chance at resolving questions of personal opinion through an objective avenue. Rather than being doomed to agree-to-disagree, there's a technical way to resolve each question, if the parties involved are willing to grind through the stats. So it's not a dead-ended model, but it does mean progress of this sort takes a rigorous discipline.
Obviously I appreciate that people do things differently than I do, and I wouldn’t want anyone to try to be like me. So this is just a reactionary ‘point of view’ that I figured I’d share, for whatever it’s worth.
But yea, not everyone needs to be a statistician. Trailblazers are critical for a theory's expansion. It's equally necessary to do rapid iteration & reinterpretation of data, and to adjust to incoming data-points seamlessly; to swivel gracefully into the best alignment by tasting the air for where the juicy fruits may be found.
Part of Pe exploration, I think, is in having a sense/hunch of where there's treasures and what avenues will pay off. Pi is the guardian of the accumulated knowledge, but Pe is what adds to that knowledge. We need both in equal proportion. Keep doing what you do Animal!
Also, the senex is steadier but also slower than the puer, and this manifests also in how written words will always be a bit outdated as soon as the ink dries. To say something is to bind it. So for example the CT corpus will always be a bit 'behind' in its details, compared to the most recent understanding. I'll try my best to update it as we go along, but don't worry too much if the descriptions are lacking here or there -- since this is normal in all fields of knowledge. Usually the living/active community has the most updated know-how, and things that are obvious enough will correct the corpus eventually, if a healthy dialogue exists between Pe-Pi. So I may not always agree with the trends you bring up but I consider all of it. : )
@ Se
Lately I've been thinking that Se probably doesn't give people automatically high dexterity, and dexterity (the ability to coordinate one's body precisely) is not central to Se but just more likely to emerge from it. But I do hold that Se would be more prone to develop dexterity, even if it's not a 'core' feature but an emergent effect -- and I suspect this can indeed be verified by examining the proportion of Ne-to-Se users involved in dance, breakdancing, skateboarding and other athletic activities.
However, it appears that dexterity is always something learned by everyone who has it (we're all born not knowing how to even walk), while Se's attuned-focus and other cognitive aspects aren't learned; they're standard. If the aim is to differentiate 'core' from 'emergent' features, then I agree with you that dexterity is not synonymous with, or necessarily tied to, the perception process Se.
I'm looking for a way to rewrite the first Se section to reflect this more correctly, while not losing the kernel of truth that I sense to be part of this feature. As you said, we need to be able to say things... instead of saying "anybody can do anything" -- which I agree is disingenuous and not the full story. And on average, I still see far more Se users involved in kinesthetically rich professions or activities which make use of their body.
Responding to @animal's initial post, here's where I think some of this resistance toward generalization is coming from, at least regarding differences in NeSi & NiSe. As an NeSi type, my orientation is more anecdotal--i.e. I'm not oriented toward general patterns or trends so much as I am toward events that tell compelling/vivid narratives. While I still see the importance of common patterns & general trends, I often find that outliers, flukes and misfits tell stories that are every bit as compelling as mainstream trends.
It's been pointed out that Ne-Si's methodology tends to be more conservative than that of Ni-Se. NiSe tends to be more comfortable making generalizations that are true in the aggregate, even if they're not 100% true in all the particulars. So, for example, I wouldn't have any issue with anyone saying "Alphas tend to be like this-and-this-and-this," as long as they acknowledge that not all of us are necessarily that way. This very same sort of Ne-Si conservatism is the very reason that Deltas are often such good scientists.
During the course of my life, I've had a lot of situations where I've felt more like an outlier than like part of a mainstream trend...I can point to a minor example of this in CT. Despite being clearly an Alpha, in a lot of ways I don't feel like I've ever truly found my place within the generalized Alpha depictions/portrayals. For instance, IRL people have described me as ideosyncratic or individualistic, and I'm pretty confident that most people who know me would agree with that description, for better & for worse. It's not hard for me to see how Fe can lead to its own flavour of individualism through its social-niche-creating properties, even if that isn't the most common outcome. Yet so far I haven't seen any acknowledgment of an "Alpha individualist" shade or anything of the sort--perhaps because we are relatively few & far between. The issue isn't so much that I want to pretend the mainstream trend doesn't exist. It's more that generalizations can feel oppressive if they're presented as too absolute--if people don't deliberately make room for the outcasts.
Now, I don't mean to portray myself as a poor, oppressed misfit--in a lot of ways I consider myself in a fairly privileged position in life.
But here's a relevant example of where overgeneralization has led to genuine oppression and denial of individuality. In western, Euro/American culture, it's generally assumed that everyone fits into one of two gender categories: male or female. Indeed, the vast majority of people do fit into those categories biologically, and at a cultural level, most people relate to these categories enough to accept them as part of their identities. Yet the problem is that western culture has constructed this male-female thing as an absolute binary into which everyone can be unambiguous categorized. In actuality, there are a small proportion of intersex people, with ambiguous characteristics, who can't be cleanly placed into one category or the other. Yet instead of accepting this ambiguity, the social gravity of the male-vs-female distinction has made it so that parents of intersex babies--and doctors--often simply decide on a gender assignment at birth and sculpt the babies' genitals accordingly. Sometimes the gender to which the parents assign their child is ultimately mismatched to its psychology. This can have tragic consequences: people who are biologically intersex but get misassigned in this way are far more prone to mental health issues and even suicide.
More broadly, even among people with no biological ambiguity, cultural-psychological generalizations about male vs. female differences don't always fit. (Besides, as Margaret Meade originally pointed out, the sets of contrasting traits ascribed to men and women vary considerably from culture to culture). Yes, I would agree that women are generally more nurturing, emotional and collectively-oriented, and that this difference has a biological basis. But it doesn't fit 100% of the time. Psychological differences between male-ness and female-ness are general trends, but in our culture the difference is constructed as an absolute, oppressive binary. Trans people and others who happen to feel alienated from the traits associated with their assigned genders suffer high rates of violence from those who seek to enforce this binary.
Of course, it's entirely possible that some people who identify with another gender (i.e. other than that of their biological sex) are doing it for the wrong reasons. But I also don't think it's fair, at all, to presume that our culture's gender-categories are so well constructed as to be the best psychological fit for everyone. Similarly, in CT, if a Beta type were to say, "I really don't relate to such-and-such a depiction of Betas," it could be entirely possible that they're just kidding themselves or don't fully understand the depiction. But it could just as easily be possible that they are simply an unusual Beta and fall outside of the mainstream. Without actually knowing such a person IRL, I don't think there's any way to really be sure.
I know this has been a rambling anecdote, but my overall point is just that even the most statistically-robust differences tend to have overlap & gray areas. I have no objection to speaking in generalizations as long as adequate room is made for tails of the curve.
Edit: I hadn't read the "CT & Sociology" thread before making this post, and I see that auburn did bring up some of the issues I was trying to get at here in the part about "unusual people."
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But you just made a helpful distinction! And that is what I likes when typology can be used to explain the ways we are seeing things differently.
Thank you @animal! lol, yes, the irony of that post wasn't lost on me!, since I was using generalizations to say that NiSe's are more comfortable with broad generalizations. I'm not categorically opposed to generalizations or categories (that would be silly), as long there's adequate room to wiggle out of them when they don't quite fit.
I also realize this topic is very complex, since CT strives to make absolute distinctions (e.g. metabolic differences), and not just describe (statistical) trends. I didn't capture all the nuance of it in my last post.
But for what it's worth, the absolute binaries is an area where I feel some doubt toward CT theory. Even though it's obvious to me that CT is largely true, I don't quite feel convinced that all seven billion Homo sapiens belong to one type or other in a totally clear-cut way, even if the vast majority of us do. (i.e., just like with biological sex). However, I don't understand the inner-workings of CT theory, it's more just my Pi sense about the grayness & imperfection of everything...as Leonard Cohen says,
"Ring the bells that still can ring,
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything,
It's how the light gets in."
@hrafn
You post is very interesting ! I will just take one idea out of it and respond because I have to go to work after that. 🙂 But maybe we explore the topic more later.
Now, I don’t mean to portray myself as a poor, oppressed misfit–in a lot of ways I consider myself in a fairly privileged position in life.
No, this was also not my purpose. I simply believe that if I don't fit the Se profile very well, though I am an Se lead with no other developed functions, there is a reason for it and that Auburn can dig and find out the reason. There could be something relevant to be found out for the whole theory.
I highly doubt I am the only SeFi who will encounter these issues for the simple reason that I am not an unusual person at all. I am fairly common, I don't seem to have any major psychological issues, didn't have any traumas, am normally adapted to the world, having a pretty normal life, friends, job and so on. Whatever the issue is, it does not look like something extremely rare and strange. I am a normal clumsy person who is not that attuned to the senses but I do think in a focused rather than divergent manner.
Without actually knowing such a person IRL, I don’t think there’s any way to really be sure.
I think this can be seen online too. And it actually is, I suppose. The fun thing is I don't have Ni developed, you know? Also I have to say this is not me developing Ni. I've been the same my whole life and my dad seems pretty similar. We can function in the real world and we can understand dynamics between people well enough but we mostly think of woo/magical/fantastical stuff and are absent minded pretty often. And the interests themselves and the way someone talks about them can be seen online.
@animal
I actually am pretty content with the explorer archetype, because I usually do explore stuff without a very precise aim and I enjoy doing it. I don't have an issue with that and it actually resonates better with me than hunter. To me hunting sounds a bit too intense and I would not like to be associated with it unless it's hunting down some dangerous monsters to protect something I care for. I really don't like it with an erotic connotation, I don't hunt people, I am too lazy for that. :)))
I agree about boredom. I think I mentioned my point about it before - I am never bored when I am by myself and do what I choose. I can get bored when I am talking to someone who is forcing me to think about their issues or when I have to focus on real, technical stuff instead of staying in my mind, like Bella mentioned.
I should specify that I don’t go out or socialize almost at all, unless I’m after a guy. I have no interest in random socializing, girls night out or appeasing friends. The only reason why I leave the house – outside of work and chores – is for the sake of chasing artistic visions and chasing men. I do love my friends, but I prefer taking a nature walk and talking, or shooting videos or chasing visions together, rather than “aimless” socializing.
Oh, I go out with friends pretty often. I go out of the house to go to work or to meet up with friends.
There are many other points mentioned but I have to go. I will come back later. 🙂
I didn't read the whole thread, but I read the OP, and wow! You're right. I think you actually came in during a period where we began making fewer distinctions because before we were attributing *everything under the sun* to functions, so we went kind of the opposite way and adopted a conversatism toward distinctions, fearing we'd gone overboard. And also every so often, some new understanding shakes everything up.
I really agree with your push toward toward the most basic, fundamental and core aspects of functions. This would help avoid over predicting ... or predicting shallow things that are peripheral and not central. I've really backed off the whole thing until I myself can make more clear distinctions.
Also, I 100% agree with Hfran that NeSi is more anecdotal. It's not a matter of just egocentrism or inability to take see things beyond myself, but it's a matter of a higher need for certainty. Ne takes leaps no problems, but I use a shit tons of hedging when doing so. When I make a real claim, my threshhold for certainty is much higher, and very little matches the internalized experience of my own life. I can attest to the veracity of my own claims, for one, but secondly, it's hard to explain, but the information has been internalized time and again. It *feels* real.
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