Reply To: Alpha & Gamma Interactions

[Animal]

First of all,  @auburn, I think our reaction to our recent argument was very telling.  You posted this thread, and at the exact same time - I didn't know you were posting it!! - I posted the "praise Auburn" thread.

Auburn is a Good Sport & a Champ 😀

 
 
 
My reaction to the same argument was basically sentiment and photos.. a visceral show of "positive emotion" toward you.  Your reaction to the same argument was: "Let's examine the principles behind this."
I also do the latter, and I know you do the former. I've seen you show positive emotion, and you've seen me analyze principles. But our initial reaction there, sets the stage for our different communication styles.
I used to make fun of Ne people because of the need to "Talk about the relationship." Many Ne people I've known, use typology, astrology or other methods through which to explore 'what went wrong.' I love those things, don't get me wrong!  And that's why we're here on a typology forum; to examine relationships between all types. I certainly would have started the same thread myself, if you hadn't.
But what makes it interesting is my first reaction vs. yours, and thinking about how this might compound in an offline relationship.  Of course, I do consider you a friend 🙂 but our interactions have been, so far, around a typology forum. It's interesting to imagine how this particular difference could go wrong (or has, in my own history) in a different setting.
In past relationships that were highly personal (best friends, romantic etc)  where it's me and a Ne person, I sometimes felt like things didn't need to be talked about past a certain point. @ivory tends to have the exact same balance here, where we talk only to Point X but then we both get it and that's it. Hard to explain, but I've noticed this as a pattern between Se and Ne, where Ne couples can fight on and on about the relationship until you wonder, what was the original fight actually about??? 😀  It's like the ideas build on each other to another idea and another and another, until two partners are arguing verbally and nobody remembers what it's about anymore.
This does not happen with me and fellow Se's. Ever. There's a more visceral fight, and both partners respond viscerally. Nobody expects anyone to be less angry or to care less, or to 'go easy on them. In the midst of this, there's declaration of emotion.  Of course there can be analysis; I've talked many times about how @Ivory and I use enneagram to resolve our deeper issues in ourselves and the relationship. But the expected tonal highs and lows tend to make more sense to us viscerally. Whereas between me & a Ne partner/friend, we each expected a different tonal development and become thrown off by the other person's tonal choices.
[QUOTE] I wonder what others think of my communication style, as perhaps I’m blind to my own effect.
[/QUOTE]
I actually have no problem with your communication "style."  The thing is, Alphas excel in this area. So the question is: can you trust it?
In your case, yes, I trust it implicitly. I can tell what kind of person you are. (This type of 'character assessment' is something deeper than type.)
However, in general, I have a hard time trusting this refined, perfect communication - and most of the time I am right.
I am not saying this to start a political argument; I am strictly talking about character here. But with Alpha, I can get the 'shiny politician' vibe.  The first time I ever saw Obama, I pointed at him, told my mom "He's a lying scumbag and he's going to win." He was essentially nobody at the time, just sitting with other possible candidates. But I saw that slick perfect presentation and I knew he would always say the right thing, but what's going on behind the scenes is a different story; and nobody would bother to investigate it because he's so "slick" and "likable."
Trump, on the other hand, many people hate him. I know that he 'lies' as in , changes his story, and he says a lot of ugly things that I would never defend.  So I am not saying he's a man of tremendous integrity and I love him. However I find it easier to know who he is, what he'll do next, what's really going on. Everything is right at the surface and this makes me feel more comfortable right away, no matter how obnoxious the person is.
So, what I'm essentially saying, is that your communication, much like Obama's , is quite pristine.  The things that make me trust you are that you do  show more of your own emotion, your own mistakes. That you snap at me when I go too far. That you show some vulnerability, some fear, some anger. That you're human - and willing to own up to it.
The slick, clean perfect communication is absolutely amazing for this project, and I respect it. But it's your humanity that makes you a cut above, in my mind. If you always had the perfect answer at the perfect time and you never reacted, I would probably not be here arguing with you. Slick-talking Alpha Politicians are not my cup of tea.  I need to see your heart and where you stand. Which in your case, I do.
And by the way, the difference is not that Obama is Fe first. I have similar feelings about other TiNe's, NeTi's , etc. throughout my life. The slick smiley perfect communication thing just really irks me. Like where is your soul ? What are you trying to sell to me?
 

But with @animal ‘s communication style, I notice that:
1) There’s the immediate visceral reaction
2) Then there’s the essentialist complaint
I could be wrong, but that’s how it appears to me. The initial visceral reaction seems as a first-pass through the Fi palate, and it can be very haughty and poignant in its sense of repulsion or affinity.

Hehe, this is on point @auburn.  There's a reason I typed as FiSe for years. I don't see myself as particularly prone to 'boredom' or 'open mindedness' or 'seeking stimulation.'  I have a strong palate and I think with my heart. I'm very self-directed and I know what I feel, what I like and don't, and it's very intricate. To you it may seem immediate and "wtf" because a lot is lost in translation, but there's a lot of depth behind these reactions. They build up over many months as a response to a collection of information. The problem is I just don't 'carefully parse it out' on a detached list. But the actual 'logic' behind my reactions runs very deep, which is why the same reactions tend to repeat. They're not out of nowhere or 'emotionally motivated,' it's just that my delivery is emotional and I only feel driven to deliver in the moment when it matters to me.
And this leads to this point.

This is what seems jarring to me. It throws me off, almost being hyper-stumilating. My own thoughts follow along the lines of: “wow, you don’t need to react so strongly” and also “why aren’t you neutral about this.”

I don't see the point in doing anything if it doesn't matter. Life is short and I've fought hard for my life. If something is 'neutral' why do it? I'm here because I care about the system a lot, and because I believe in you.
This is a problem I've run into with T egos, which I've brought up with you before, but now that I think of it, it's mostly Alphas. I get these lectures occasionally from Betas, that I 'care too much' and should be neutral; but they seem to bring it up in moments when I agree with them. 😀 Because they frame it more like, if you care, you're going about it wrong. Your attitude right now will not help the situation.
With Alphas, it can feel like a moral judgment. Like they are looking down at me through their nose because I bleed, I feel, I care. I love the lyrics of this song so much, because he's saying - "I want, I love, I need, I bleed. I lust, I trust, I cheat, I bleed."  "Why don't you come down from your cloud and face reality." He could honestly be singing this to a TiNe 😀

With Alphas, I often feel like ripping off my skin and showing them my bare heart just so they remember to find their own.
This is a historical dynamic for me. If anything I've become more "neutral" about this because I understand typology and I understand why they are "looking down on me" through their ivory tower and telling me to approach matters from a distant angle. But, I have also become increasingly outspoken.
You'd think that after being told so many times to "chill out" my emotions and be more neutral I might actually consider this, but all that it does, is to cement my idea that my role in the world is to keep the fire alive. Everyone else can silence the call of their heart, but I will be an open pipeline to Erosia, a vessel through which passion emerges.
In this Western world of rote memorization and intellectual distance, I bring balance.

Where I think I can falter is in not addressing the second point; the essentialist complaint. It seems to me that #1 stems from reaction #2. The essentialist complaint is something like “[ subject/topic ] is not being represented faithfully for what it is.” So although the initial repulsion is poignant, there’s good reasoning behind it that comes from a measurement of the core properties of a thing. There’s a moral violation that is sensed, which is seen by the Gamma as not confined to their subjective preference.

Yes, I'm glad you get this. Thats what I was trying to say above, that there's a  lot going on behind it, but it's  just the delivery has the visceral stuff up front. It touches me that you can see the wisdom in this. And this is part of why I trust you. Because you don't try to make me turn into another "you" or another Alpha. You actually care to understand where I'm coming from. (I hope I can afford you the same kindness. I am trying, although I know my methods of showing empathy and compassion, as well as understanding and 'I hear you' -  are so different.)

I can be prone to dismiss #2 on the grounds of #1.

Yup, this is where I have gone wrong with Alphas, exactly. The idea that my argument isn't valid simply because there are emotions attached to it.. seems insane to me. But I'm learning over time why; because perhaps you (Alphas? Or you particularly?) achieve more clarity by having emotional distance from the point, so you assume the same for others?

And also, my (sometimes implicit) desire for properly articulated information makes for a hard request — because of Fi’s “embodied” rather than linguistic moral expression. So to the degree that my Gamma interlocutors (in this case Animal, but it’s also been Chilled/etc) don’t translate the embodied morality into lingustic articulation, then #1 is taken at face value, rather than #2.

Yeah exactly. I appreciate your communication style and it is indeed clear. I am not in fact capable of doing that. So the fact that I don't do it, doesn't mean that I don't care or I'm not trying my best. It's just, this is my best. 🙁
And this is why you are the right person to lead this project, not me. The projects I lead are of a completely different nature. Where visceral emotional channeling must be at the forefront. This can be music, performance; but also novel writing. I work with kind of a 'team' - my Alpha NT writes the languages 🙂 but I'm the one with the visceral-emotional connection to the characters, and the realistic coverage of moment-to-moment events. He excels at the 'Silmarillion' style writing, putting the languages and long history into perspective. We work together on world building.
Our main argument has been about emotion and reason, and him seeing things more the way you do. This plays into the magic and the religion in that world so it has been an ongoing argument for 20 years. I can't go into detail til it's published. But it is literally a reiteration of our argument, with consequences in our world which are of epic proportions.