Home 2023 › Forums › General Psychology › Let's talk about shame
We’ve had a couple of discussions on Discord about shame. There seems to be a consensus saying that Fe experiences shame as a possibly temporarily painful but helpful pointer to what needs to be corrected about one’s character, while Fi experiences shame as a traumatizing thus ineffective penalty. This perceived trend goes in hand with the functions’ differing focal points, namely ”the fabricable self” contra ”the essential self”.
It almost seems as if Fe’s conceptualization of shame shares elements with the concept of guilt, since the self, according to Fe, is something one does, rather than something one is. Based on that, it might be the case that Fe’s shame is the same phenomenon as Fi’s guilt, and Fe’s guilt is the same phenomenon as Fi’s shame. (I recall Jelle suggesting that Fe dislikes guilt the way Fi dislikes shame. I’m proposing that’s the case because ”they are the same thing”. Of course, this depends on where we decide to put the definitions.)
Gust once talked about shame as a discomfort on the individual, that with the proper amount of pressure leads to positive psychological hypertrophy. This insinuates that shame is an encouragement of additive change. I, on the contrary, see shame as an encouragement of subtractive change.
People use the word shame in various situations to describe a certain emotion. A common denominator is the belief ”I’m something that I shouldn’t be”.
Now, I have a tendency to bypass the obvious, say ”all these things are the same thing”, and talk about the fundamental thing behind it all. So to make this post a bit more comprehendible I’ll start off with neat items with relatable human stuff.
The psychotherapist Joseph Burgo categorizes shame with a subset of four types of shame:
1) Unrequited love; rejection.
2) Unwanted exposure; being called out for a mistake; being humiliated.
3) Disappointed expectation; when you set out to do something and you fail.
4) Exclusion; being left out.
The first subtype is said to often take place during Still Face Experiments, where infants are effectlessly trying to connect with their expressionless mothers by smiling, shrieking, etc. This particular example of shame-inducement is interesting because the infant lacks the neocortical connections to conceptualize ”wrongness” or any of the present behaviours. It is, in a sense, without meaning. Yet, the infant experiences the same biochemical reaction as in the other identifications of shame. This is called proto-shame, and can be interpreted as the essence of shame. It teaches us that shame is an instinct independent of one’s personal values and understanding of social constructs.
Maybe shame essentially is a social mechanism. A tool meant to preserve interpersonal belonging. Maybe it’s simply ”externally fueled” (socially or not) and keeps us alive in a conditional world. What the mother does in the Still Face Experiment, is basically to not mirror the state of the infant, which is an act of exclusion; an indication of a wall between them. When children are systematically met with these kinds of walls without any specification or conceptualization of which behavior isn’t included by the Other, they create a self-concept of shame. It can be translated as the belief ”I’m inherently wrong”, in contrast to specified shame that sounds more like ”My anger is wrong”, ”My pleasure is wrong”, ”My discontent is wrong”, ”My body is wrong”, etc.
What the babies do in response to the blank stares of the mothers, is that they push themselves away internally. In other words, they dissociate. What we generally do in response to lack of mirroring, rejection, humiliation, disapproval, exclusion – is that we push parts of ourselves away. In other words, we split our consciousness and suppress parts of it.
Shame is the creative force behind shadows (disowned attributes within the psyche), which is why there are plenty of teachings that aim to release shame (so as to integrate the subconscious). At the same time, the act of shaming is encouraged in many discourses. For example, I often hear feminists here in Sweden explicitly say that men should be ashamed, as if that’d be morally balancing.
Feel free to elaborate:
What are you ashamed of? Who taught you to be ashamed of that particular thing?
What are you shameless about, that others aren’t?
Do you think people should be ashamed? If so, who and why?
Hey Pine,
I usually experience shame in relation to the social: it can range from light senses that I have crossed a social boundary to feeling like the most outcasted, disgusting individual to society (I felt that in my most depressive episode so far, when I had been completely withdrawn).
So far I have thought that there are biological correlates that activate, not just with faces but with voice and with "fields, aura" of feeling and emotional subtext. I saw a youtube video once where a guy who was very mechanical minded couldn't understand or "detect" the feeling states of everyone else. The man mentions that through transcranial magnetic stimulation on certain regions of the brain, he was opened up to a whole new world of external feeling fields and dynamics that he wasn't able to notice before (I tried to find the video, but failed to do so, sorry).
This is how I would characterize shame. It's an external field of boundaries that can be crossed and I am most of time aware of them when I do cross them, even though nothing is said. Then I feel ashamed afterwards that I didn't do something different and try to correct (if important enough to me) my behavior next time. However, there are times when someone tries to shame me and it has no effect, perhaps because I cannot "see/feel" the boundaries that are being pushed, and so therefore I am stoic or laughing at the person at their ridiculousness.
Alternatively, I feel guilt (using it as a way to define an internal "shame", rather than external "shame") when I shame my own self for crossing my own real "ethical" boundaries. I feel guilty when I have made someone I care about unintentionally cry at something I have said. That is not a social boundary, since it seems the social boundary for making someone cry can depend of the context and the truth of the matter, and whether they are male/female.
Durkheim in his "The Elementary forms of Religious Life" talks about religion having its foundation in social forces, able to mark for the society what is sacred and what is profane. Shame seems connected to this concept, since doing what is profane is "shameful" and disconnects you from the group and therefore from "God." Which makes me wonder if perhaps Fi types can't experience the "shame" of in the moment social dynamics, but rather more experience it in the transgression of social laws (what is sacred/profane), since they are patently external and codified and social punishment most likely ensues?
[...] to feeling like the most outcasted, disgusting individual to society (I felt that in my most depressive episode so far, when I had been completely withdrawn).
It makes sense that intense depressive states correlates with extreme separation/isolation of self. It’s awful.
The man mentions that through transcranial magnetic stimulation on certain regions of the brain, he was opened up to a whole new world of external feeling fields and dynamics that he wasn’t able to notice before
That’s really fascinating.
I often sense strings and waves of emotions interacting in space. It doesn’t quite make sense that I have receptors outside my body, but that’s how I’d describe my perception. I guess Ne illustrates the world from different angles, kind of independently of the locality of one’s body (allocentrically?). And my Fi works with emotions/tactility.
It’s an external field of boundaries
I like this description. I sometimes literally sense shame as an external electric fence that I now and then accidentally overdraw.
What you’re saying about ”shaming yourself” (guilt) sounds kind of healthy, as it relates to the real context, collaborates with your personal emotions and aims to reestablish your integrity.
Oh, I assure you, Fi types can experience shame in the moment of social dynamics. Which is an evil function of the universe, because HOW DO I SHUT OFF MY ASYMMETRIC FACE AND OFF-BEAT HANDS. XD
But you’re onto something when you’re suggesting that Fi leans towards ”sacred laws”. It seems as if Fi-shame is much more heavy and permeating. I feel as if my being is mired in darkness, and whenever I try to correct my mistakes, I spread my darkness further (makes me think of https://cognitivetype.com/the-picky-princess/). Not very practical. So I can only isolate myself within myself, and rot.
What are you ashamed of? Who taught you to be ashamed of that particular thing?
I'm ashamed of revealing my thoughts (paranoia, obsessive compulsive behavior and depressive self-talk) to the ones close to me. I have a blog, where I post these thoughts and create stories from my traumatic experiences and tell to my readers that these stories are just a fantasy. I lie a lot about myself to the closed ones. I'm ashamed that I'm such a fearful and dysfunctional human being - sometimes. I kind of "learned" to be ashamed of these thoughts, because I experienced rejection a lot of times because of them from the ones I loved a lot. My impulse is to belong, to adapt and my intention is to be accepted, that's why I lie a lot about myself and hide or speculate about things that make me feel ashamed from my close social circle.
What are you shameless about, that others aren’t?
I shamelessly create stories and speculations about my traumas and share them on social media. I shamelessly talk about my fears with strangers on internet/IRL. I shamelessly confess that I lie a lot, about myself and my habitat, to the ones I meet IRL or have a close relationship with. Even now, I can say I'm 100% honest about myself, because you don't know me IRL and you don't have a close relationship with me. Other people tend to be more careful and shameful about talking with strangers, I'm an entire opposite.
Do you think people should be ashamed? If so, who and why?
No. Shame makes me feel more insecure and I don't wish to anyone to feel this insecurity.
@pine - very interesting topic.
What are you ashamed of? Who taught you to be ashamed of that particular thing?
What are you shameless about, that others aren’t?
Do you think people should be ashamed? If so, who and why?
I am ashamed of :
- not being well informed, not mastering a certain topic or not finding the right words to express what I do know - it might be a form of exposure, I think;
- showing affection to people who don't feel the same - so, pretty much what you mentioned above about unrequited love and rejection ;
- acting in an inappropriate way, especially in front of people I care about - again probably a form of unwanted exposure of certain flaws;
- failing to do a natural, easy thing that anyone should be able to do. Like dancing. Or peeling potatoes the way they should be peeled. 🙂 I have very low dexterity. Way below average. And I feel ashamed when others can see how freaking low it actually is. 🙂
Maybe there are other situations in which I feel shame, but these seem to be the most prominent ones.
I suppose my parents and close relatives, as well as teachers and - to a certain degree - the media taught be to be ashamed of these things.
I don't really feel ashamed of being naked. I mean...I know many girls who have different worries about their bodies, which I don't. My body is not perfect either but it's not something that concerns me that much.
I am also not ashamed of not wearing make up, not being dressed fancy enough at certain events, being late, not knowing something that I am not supposed to know (for example I feel ashamed if I don't know what law applies to a situation but I don't feel ashamed if I don't know who the Minister of Education is - because this does not impact my work or hobbies and can also not be considered general culture - so I don't need to know it ).
Failure usually makes me feel rather frustrated than ashamed and I also am usually able to avoid it by winging it. 😛 :))
Regarding guilt - I feel it only after doing something clearly wrong. So, it's different from shame. Guilt seems to be easier triggered by wrong deeds and shame by our weaknesses becoming visible to others. Guilt is less dependent on what other people might think - it can come to the surface when we can see we did something that is not aligned to our values, even if no one else knows.
Shame on the other hand seems to be image related. What will this person think of me after she finds out I did that? We have this saying in Romanian - the earth swallowed him because of shame. Not sure if it exists in English too? It's exactly like this, you want to disappear completely. While guilt would rather make you want to atone.
Should people feel shame? I think so, they should. Shame is like fear...it can protect us from social situations that could be damaging for us.
There should be a balance and a certain correlation between our feelings of shame and the social rules that we live by... so, it is healthy to feel ashamed of getting drunk and starting to make stupid jokes about people and to instigate others to attack them 🙂 but it is unhealthy to feel ashamed because your cat is meowing loudly in the taxi, as long as the taxi driver knew he will pick up a woman with a cat. 🙂
I mean, shame should ideally just help us act in socially appropriate ways (enough to not be kicked out of places :)) ) but not make us constantly feel bad about minor things that are not really under our control. Also, shame should not make us trample our values in order to align to what others expect of us.
– failing to do a natural, easy thing that anyone should be able to do. Like dancing. Or peeling potatoes the way they should be peeled.
Me too! I feel extremely abnormal and I’m afraid that’ll become apparent if I try to do something particularly normal, and that people then will think that I’m retarded.
I agree; guilt isn’t image-directed. I think it kind of aims to correct circumstances in accordance to the highest good, while shame is a temporary fix to social dissonance based on arbitrary rules.
Shame is something to ultimately be dissolved. I feel like @kesogagoshidze: I don’t want anybody to feel the insecurity of shame. I also see your point, @Bera. Shame is a part of nature and it serves the function to maintain closeness in a conditional, discriminating system that one is dependent upon.
Mm, I would like to say a few things here.
Having been the target of Self-directed shame for many years now (over something I truly had no control over), I know how deeply unhelpful and damaging shame is when it is wrongly directed. However, I'm not ready to write off shame as a useful mechanic for society, and in fact I believe it can play a vital role in societal well-being (and in a legal system increasingly dominated by wealth it must necessarily be so). The example that comes most easily to mind for me is the #MeToo movement, in which I understand part of the movement represents a collective psychic anger at the failure of legal systems to actually provide justice for the survivor and for society. It must always be remembered that when the legal system exculpates a legitimate predator of wrong-doing, it doesn't just harm the survivor (which is bad enough imo), it harms all of society by releasing that predator back into the wild to introduce more evil into society.
The example of which I could speak more at length actually concerns the police department in Dallas, Texas. I've mentioned this before, but I worked in one of the most heavily trafficked psych ERs in Dallas, and so I dealt with the DPD (Dallas Police Department) and the aftermath of their actions on a nightly basis. Their smallest and most frequent betrayals of citizens' trust involved telling individuals they detained and brought to our doorstep this lie, "Oh, you'll just be there for a quick check-up from the doctor, nobody stays there for more than a night." I know this because the patients would tell these stories to me, often becoming extremely upset once they learned they were in for a minimum 72 hours, and I would be the one to have to calm them down now that the liars had left. And these stories were so widespread and so consistent I knew them to be true. In fact, these same officers that lie to the citizen all the way to the hospital had to physically sign the documents committing that person to the hospital for at least 72 hours once they arrived! They simply couldn't be bothered to deal with the repercussions of telling the truth, and so lying was their Standard Operating Procedure. (I also witnessed much, much worse behavior, one incident being egregious beyond measure on the officer's part, but no one was directly harmed in that incident and I don't want to be dragged into court myself, so I will pass those over for now.)
This example came to mind because DPD was recently in the news for inadvertently murdering another mentally ill citizen (a schizophrenic who called 9-1-1 for help because he was off his medications and deeply scared). After watching the three minute video released (which took three years to be released in the first place because DPD tried everything they could to block it legally), I can safely say that the officers did not intend to kill that man, they just simply didn't care enough for his well-being not to (repeatedly jamming their knees and body weights into his back to keep him from moving, and never bothering to check pulse or respirations as I'm certain they are trained to do). There is a cop culture in Dallas (and likely in many other places) that any possible reduction of harm to themselves is worth any harm to a citizen.
Now, in America the legal system has enshrined law enforcement to such an extent that there is no justice to be found within its walls almost as soon as the police officer(s) become the focus of a case (just Google some of these cases; no matter the severity of evidence, the officer is almost always acquitted by the court because of how the statutes are written in the first place to preclude as much as possible the possibility of an officer being found guilty in a court of law. And if the Back the Blue Act is ever passed, I believe America would then be most properly understood as an official police state).
Every officer involved in the killing of the schizophrenic citizen I mentioned above is already back to active duty after a one month suspension. So, lacking legal recourse what is left for society to do to correct such horrific offenses as wanton murder without consequences? Shame. Police officers and police departments are still filled with individual human beings, and individual human beings can and should be shamed if standard recourses have failed. If I had a sufficiently elevated platform from which to shout them down and shame their behavior, I would be happy to do such a thing myself, and indeed would be proud of myself for having done so.
But, one last very important distinction with shame: I believe shame should be directed at behaviors rather than individuals, so that the individual can correct the behavior without feeling ashamed of their entire person. So, I would never want to say "All cops are shit! Death to cops, we don't need police!" No, I think that's idiotic in the extreme. What needs to be said is, "You're here to protect us and you're failing. Here is how you're failing, and if you continue to refuse to acknowledge or correct these failures, we will continue to bring shame upon you; peace of mind we will attempt to deny you as long as you deny it to your citizens."
Edit: Oh, yes! And here is a recent real-life example that I would consider to be an act of shaming that is done with the express purpose of improving the world and achieving justice when the formal, institutional routes failed:
Edit 2: And it worked; by galvanizing Congress and bringing the issue into the national spotlight, public shaming succeeded where "following the rules" had mostly resulted in more sick and dead and more excuses from Congress as to why so little was being done. I just checked the status of the bill and on 07/29/19 the bill became Public Law, creating a permanent Victim's Compensation Fund for the 9/11 First Responders.
That’s a good point, @Rondo. Shame is an inherent law enforcement in the human apparatus. It serves the collective of humanity when formal systems fail.
From my perspective, those deeply disturbingly behaving police officers are unconscious of how all things are connected. DPD experienced themselves as separate from that schizophrenic man. They were so grossly disconnected from that man’s state of being, they were able to mindlessly kill him. If disconnection is the primary cause of bad impact, should we really treat them with shame, which essentially is an intra- and interpersonal phenomenon of disconnection?
I believe shame should be directed at behaviors rather than individuals, so that the individual can correct the behavior without feeling ashamed of their entire person.
Ah, yes. Though I was thinking that the very definition of shame includes a rejection of some fabric within the individual.
Shame, guilt and embarrassment are easily mixed up, so I’ll summarize each phenomenon:
When one feels shame, one pushes oneself away in response to being pushed away by someone else.
When one feels guilt, one has overdrawn one’s moral boundaries concerning someone else’s interests.
When one feels embarrassment, one detects social disapproval and fears the consequences.
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