Home 2023 › Forums › Vultology & Learning Center › George RR Martin, Game of Thrones & Fe vs Te Themes
@auburnย Omg thank you so much!
George Martin may appear superficially to belong to the same camp as Tolkien, due to genre, but I think his approach is far more different than it seems. Iโm not qualified to say too much about him, as I havenโt read any of his books, but Iโve seen all GOT episodes and can already sense a type of Se realism that Tolkien and Rowling lack. And while his approach is rich in detail, itโs not the kind of Si trivia-based detail that we see with Tolkien/Rowling, but is instead a more gritty, visceral, sensational/sexual detail that abounds through his series. This speaks to an Ni/Se author.
Exactly!ย I talked about these exact things in Discord just the other day. Let me see if I can find it. I typed him as NiTe and defended his Ni-ness and Ni-Se holeism heavily.
[SPOILER]
"mmmm
he is brilliant
omg
im so jealous
that brain
i can't believe that big old slob managed to depict the inner desires and thoughts of women with such passion and integrity
how the hell
can someone be so fucking brilliant
i can barely wrap my mind around how to articulate the inner thoughts of one character who shares traits with me, let alone so many inner worlds of beautiful men nothing like me. he is an absolute brilliant genius
he has so much depth in characters that tolkien and rowling lack
he is an absolute master, genius amazing overlord of writing as far as I'm concerned
i have watched the series and dabbled in the books and im terrified to read the rest lest i give up on my project completely out of utter defeat(edited)
his work is absolutely tops
and the realism.. the way people "really are.." their development, the reasons, the things they don't understand about themselves.. he just GETS It
relationships, family, love, sex, war..
how someone can be such a genius is just so amazing
we live in an amazing world
i don't even want to see someone comparing him to tolkien. there is absolutely no comparison. tolkien was a historian and linguist. this guy is a soul-ist and humanist. he understands and captures characters in such a realistic, profoundly intimate way(edited)
there are no one dimensional characters here. there are the 'dead,' but there are so many villains that aren't "black and white," and the good guys also have dark sides that develop organically by way of being human, without the need for a ring or a 'dark force outside themselves'(edited)
he has realism down. being in his world is like living among real people
he did everything right
he makes me wish i wasn't a writer or didn't exist
i love it
his existence is an implicit challenge "
"he looks Pi AF
i love how he says this is the way life really is and how we really experience life; and that's why i present it this way
i totally share that attitude
he wants it to be parallel to how we really experience things
i would read Se into that, plus his eyes don't move much :3 but he does have the gnomish delta 'gestalt'
so , PiTe
is my vote
he has Ni brows
i wouldn't be surprised if he's NiTe since he innately makes sense to me in a way whereas these Delta ST authors feel kind of 'removed from reality' .
to me."
Regarding the argument that he had "multiple parallel theories..."
"Multiple theories, world views and mythologies coexist in my books too without trying to pitch a single unified account
because.. "they just are."
it's just how the world is.
and my world reflects that
i actually felt Tolkien tried to pitch a unified theory of what is good and what is evil, and it was unrealistic and fantastical
ya, what i notice is that each individual character or even family, had its own world view.
and within each characters' mind there was a consistent, consolidated world view.
he just assumed that to be the case; an organic development of "one way of seeing things"
i dont' want to speak for puellae, but i interpreted it as, he doesn't pitch a moralistic 'this is good, this is evil' as an overarching theme
yeah
but i do that too in my books
there are lots of different ways to be good, evil or approach God & philosophy
including ones i personally don't ascribe to which very very prominent characters do
only one character reflects my personal philosophy and development
but each character has a consistent one
that they stand for and develops organically
like how he does it
my complaint about many books is that they're pushing a certain philosophy down your throat.
but they don't present it in a realistic way that makes you "fall into it" naturally or contemplate it for yourself
whereas GOT really brings up questions that come up irl
priorities, values etc
but he gives the reader room to decide and to think and experience this reality with him
[/SPOILER]
So yeah, I had said NiTe only because I saw Ni-Se heavily. Much like with Trent, I could see it either way, Gamma or Beta. I can't explain why though but... I have a feeling he might be NiTe, psychologically speaking. I'm willing to be wrong but there's heavy Gamma realism to him. Then again I grew up with my dad who is NiFe and I considered him a realist . So I could be wrong on that for sure.
As for Dr. Horowitz I really had no idea what type he would be. He is my doctor and his mission and state of mind is exactly as you said, @auburn . You are really a genius at getting right down to the central themes of what someone is about. He is an absolutely incredible person.
Anyone that thinks Dr. Horowitz talks fast on video should see him in person. His mind is the fastest thing I have ever seen, and he rattles off so many specifics in a short span of time, it makes my brain explode. (And most people consider MEย fast!)
Those three that I just asked you to type, they are three of my favorite people in the world; geniuses and idols you could say. I'm not someone who 'idolizes' as I have a very autonomous sense of identity, but when I feel like my work is over my head and I just can't do it, I look at the things they have done and I remember the power of the human mind and perseverance. They also give me hope for the world (of music, medicine and fantasy writing, respectively).
Oh wow, your writeup of George Martin's style is very similar to my thoughts! -- but fuller and more elaborate. I agree with your diagnosis. And yes, I have to square away these Gamma vibes cuz I see them too. He's got a certain tempo to his articulation which seems like plateau emphasis, although the execution itself is slow. But he might be so Pi viscous that his hand movements swell, due to the slow lumbering body, even if they have a Te plateau rhythm. I don't know.
Oppositely, some Fe's can have a rapid pace, but each 'hit' still has an Fe warm swell. I've needed to be more explicit about this in my descriptions -- but there are two components relevant to this. Te = uniform rhythm...and Fe = ballistic rhythm. It's like this in the voice tone (i.e. Te monotone) as well as in the hand rhythms.
And usually Te also = faster and Fe also = slower, but sometimes you have fast + ballistic... which is still Fe, and you can have slow + uniform/monotone/mono-speed which is still Te. I'm halfway through the NiTe vultology samples so I hope that sheds some light. (I've been slowed down by my travels lately, but I'm excited to get to it.)
Trent Reznor looks like a Ti user but I will look closer later, I don't have a lot of time right now and I could be wrong.
Itโs turned out that most actual Pe-leads are artisans of some sort โ musicians, painters, singers, athletes, etc โ and Pi-leads (proper) are more often academics, counselors and professionals (i.e. doctors, teachers, psychologists). I would say that Peโs have โa talent for the dynamicโ while Piโs have โa talent for the scholastic.โ From the behavioral dimension, Iโve found this can be rather informative in conjunction with vultology. Trent certainly fits more into the former than the latter.
I can not disagree because you were talking only about most Pe-leads, implying that there are exceptions, but what I wanted to add is that many people (including Pe leads) lack artistic skills and that Pe-leads' talent for the dynamic might also help in most jobs that involve working with/for other people. Including counseling, which also has the advantage of involving adaptability and openness to different possibilities, which are qualities many Pe leads have.
Oh, George Martin is NiFe, so, we were wrong about his J-axis, interesting. Now I actually think it would make more sense for him to be an Fe user, the books are about a game of thrones in the end. The main themes are political and social and character's motives are very well explored. It is not so much about an individual doing what is aligned with his own inner values but more about families and houses fighting together and against each other. There are also a lot of practical life lessons to learn.
I must learn to differentiate Fe and Te movements better.
And in the meantime you said he could be actually NiTe. :)) So, I don't know. He did look NiTe to us in the beginning but I can see many Fe themes. On the other hand, everyone can write anything and vultology is actually relevant. ๐
@bera
He has political themes, but I'm not sure if they're... ideology-based. It seems more like the characters he values the most actually shun ideology and find it a cause for rolling their eyes.ย Whereas the characters who are steeped in ideology, like Khaleesi/Dany, end up being 'bad guys' because he sees this as an inevitable path for those who are blinded by ideology. This is how some NiTe's think about ideology, like @quin-cognitivetype and @thanatesque ๐ย like it just makes people stupid and it's bound to go too far. Whereas books that I see as Beta books, or Fe books (The alchemist? is Hermann Hesse NiFe or FiNe? We'll have to do him one day)... they are moreย blatantly pushing their own ideology and showing that it's "good."
Tolkien and Rowling do this too. As does Ayn Rand.ย I see this as the spawn of the authors whose N&F functions are blocked together. Whereas I actually share a certain propensity to focus on 'how things are' regardless of my own ideology, with @Auburn ; whether or not we both see 'how it is' the same way, and whether or not we agree on how it 'would be' ideally.ย ย I think this is about N&T being blocked together... seeing "how reality is."ย Quin once said "It is what it is what it is." Too true. The difference is that Se people see "reality' as lived experience in the concrete world while Alphas may view it as something like 'statistics' and 'possibilities/probabilities' - which may lead to alpha vs. gamma arguments.
[This is just my current hypothesis. Still being formed.]
OMG, that is spot on!ย I think you've made a great distinction here.
My husband can lean toward ideology (having conscious Fi), but he's not ideology first, and the other NiTe I know are really resistant to the NF ideological approach to life.
It's really quite hard to determine because everyone always has one agenda or another. And I mean it in real life too. Someone mentioned it in the chat today quoting someone else (I don't remember who) and I agree, of course. Everyone has an agenda. In politics you must adopt an ideology or another. It can be - A Lannister always pays his debts or Winter is coming but they are at their roots ideologies, though we agree with the second and roll our eyes at the first. :)) I mean, of course, very simplified ones, but there is a belief system at the root of these words. And it is shared by all members of the house. It can be adopted by others too when one ideology becomes more in line with the historical reality (during summer and when people did not know about the dangers behind the wall, No Debt might have been more compelling ๐ like...in our case right now it makes sense to fight for the environment but 100 years ago we considered other values more important ).
About characters who are portrayed as good guys vs. bad guys, this is very complicated because there are a LOT of characters, I believe all types must be covered and almost no character is completely good or evil. Which I actually like, but at some point it becomes hard to determine who you should be rooting for. ๐
Dany started being seen as a "bad guy" recently (I considered her to be going downwards from the moment she burned the Tarlys, I was totally on her side until then and closed an eye to everything stupid she did until that point, because she had a fantastic development !).
I doubt Te-Fi characters are necessarily depicted as good. I don't remember what type Cersei is but I think she must be a Te-Fi user... at least in the show. Sansa is Fi lead and just started to be likable one or 2 seasons ago.
Jon is one of the few good characters and he is SiFe, I think. Auburn told us and I think this is his type. Maybe you can remember something questionable he did, I can't right now, but I might just omit it. To me he is simply good, with no dark or gray areas.
Ned Stark was also a good guy. I don't know his type.
I don't think this means much concerning George Martin's typing, all I wanted to point out is there are good, evil and neutral characters of different types.
The difference is that Se people see โrealityโ as lived experience in the concrete world while Alphas may view it as something like โstatisticsโ and โpossibilities/probabilitiesโ โ which may lead to alpha vs. gamma arguments.
You are right ! But reality is just reality and it must be somewhere in the middle. If I know my personal experience is different from certain statistics, there are some possibilities - I can be an exception, the statistics may be wrong, the statistics may be right but apply to a different group, I could have misunderstood the statistics etc. It must be determined what is actually true.
But there is also a question regarding how to address this, which is another issue that I don't fully understand yet and am still experimenting with, but I am diverging way too much from the topic. ๐
Whereas I actually share a certain propensity to focus on โhow things areโ regardless of my own ideology, with auburn ; whether or not we both see โhow it isโ the same way, and whether or not we agree on how it โwould beโ ideally.ย ย I think this is about N&T being blocked togetherโฆ seeing โhow reality is.โ
This is an interesting idea, and i think I can relate to it a bit. Despite having strong political views that are outside of the mainstream, I have issues with rigid ideologues, even if I agree with most of their positions. The worst are political party loyalists.
On the other hand, my understanding of conductor Deltas and their "technocratic" tendencies is that many of them are also quite oriented toward seeing "how reality is" using tools like statistics. My understanding of technocracy is that it involves eschewing prevailing ideologies in favor of governance based on science/positivism. People like Bill Gates and Michael Bloomberg (he's a Delta, right?) seem to have this orientation. And yet, I suppose this technocratic attitude can easily become an ideology unto itself.
The difference is that Se people see โrealityโ as lived experience in the concrete world while Alphas may view it as something like โstatisticsโ and โpossibilities/probabilitiesโ โ which may lead to alpha vs. gamma arguments.
I would say that the most basic experience of "statistics" and "probabilities," in this sense, arise from the accumulation of "lived experience in the concrete world" over a long period of time. Having a sense about probabilities requires paying attention to precedent. For instance, if I drive recklessly and crash my car a few times, then eventually I'll start remembering that kind of experience every time I end up in a similar situation. I think this is what leads a lot of Si types toward caution.
In fact, I've always felt like an important difference between Se and Si is that Si operates on a longer/slower timescale. On the one hand, I'm not always the most observant person when it comes to moment-to-moment things in my environment. But on the other hand, I can't imagine how some people disbelieve in climate change where I find it blindingly obvious from my lived experience with my environment over the course of my lifetime. I remember what the normal range of weather patterns used to feel like during my childhood, and I've also noticed how much familiar landscapes have changed in the years since. On this basis, I can extrapolate the trends I've seen so far into imagining future probabilities.
In fact, Iโve always felt like an important difference between Se and Si is that Si operates on a longer/slower timescale. On the one hand, Iโm not always the most observant person when it comes to moment-to-moment things in my environment. But on the other hand, I canโt imagine how some people disbelieve in climate change where I find it blindingly obvious from my lived experience with my environment over the course of my lifetime. I remember what the normal range of weather patterns used to feel like during my childhood, and Iโve also noticed how much familiar landscapes have changed in the years since. On this basis, I can extrapolate the trends Iโve seen so far into imagining future probabilities.
I relate to what you say here. I also extrapolate longer term trends in my experience, and sensations, etc; all the way back to childhood. Not sure why since I'm not Pi conscious. Maybe it's just having Sensing as a base function?
But Global Warming is too... "big" for me. Because.. it seems obvious to me that this is beyond me. According to scientists, the Earth has completely changed temperature many times, back and forth, drastically; even the continents have changed placement. Although a certain trend may happen during my lifetime, it may have happened before that, and then changed again. A single volcano causes more gas emissions than we possibly could, etc etc....
Anyway, I cannot bring myself to have a strong opinion on it since the issue feels too far outside my scope of expertise. So maybe that's me understanding that my Pi doesn't have what it takes to make this assessment, but having enough "J" to just admit that, and delineate the difference between topics that are within my scope, and aren't.
I have said a lot of things about Healthcare around the world, much to people's annoyance. But I have more knowledge about this because my doctor deals with an unknown, but very widespread,ย illnessย - and goes around the world meeting with people personally who are involved with major decisions about healthcare, governments, tv stations, etc. And I've had this illness all my adult life and been in the 'know' about these cutting edge medical things and what top people are going through in order to achieve break-throughs. So I actually do have insights about people's country, which they won't have if they're relatively healthy, or if they have an easily identifiable illness. On that topic I run my mouth somewhat, and I am quite confident that I've extrapolated trends that are real and crucial; but I have trouble expressing them in a way that people are able to swallow, because I lack Pi. So when I try to make my case, people point out bits of the 'map' that they think I'm missing-ย while I know that it's NOT missing, but I'm unable to 'orient them' to a place where they could understand my pov.
But Global Warming just has so many other people that are better qualified to talk about it and more oriented toward the sciences. So why would I?
I do notice the temperature differences throughout my own life, for sure; but I'm just not convinced I have the wherewithal to determine whether that is the 'whole picture.'
Looking more closely at Martin's vultology, I'm more confident now that signal-wise he qualifies as Fe, as per the current vultology code. Even when accounting for the variations that may exist in Te gesticulations, his is clearly Fe gesticulation. We can see this in GIFs such as:
0:14

^ Fe On-Beat Emphasis + Ti Delicate Pinching ...leading into a Ti Neutralization & Disengagement Down
from video: youtube.com/watch?v=K0OHYB73lSQ
0:34

^ Fe Demonstrative/Shepherding + Fe Warm Swelling
0:40

^ Ti Delicate Pinching + Fe Warm Swelling (+ P Casual Hands)
from video: youtube.com/watch?v=CKnXmNHubfs
The entire oscillation is present in how his mannerisms are Stop-Start, with emotional neutralization when he pauses, and timely swells/pushes when he comes out. So from a purely vultological perspective, he seems unambiguously NiFe.
And yet, I still agree that his fictional works (well, technically I've only seen the films) appear more Gamma to me -- so there's an apparent discrepancy here that I have no answer for. The vultology is giving one answer, and the behavior(?) is giving another. I can see three general explanations to this:
I was hoping to see NiTe upon revision but it's simply not there. He has what seems like a giddy giggle, and some upward tension.. but that's in contrast to the 5-7 Fe/Ti signals he has, which outweigh the former.
I honestly don't know which of the three it is. I need to read his books. And it'd be easy to say "any type can write anything" and justify CT -- but even if that is true, that's a dangerously circular rationalization that I'd like to avoid. I'd like to try to understand how it is that he's building this narrative if indeed it's coming from an Fe/Ti cognition.
BTW - I'm not offering any solutions to the discrepancy at the moment, but just stating what I see.
edit: Psychology needs to be able to check vultology, but perhaps fictional works are not the ideal 'checker' criteria. Maybe a better thing to look at is -- how is Martin in his personal life? How does he himself actually live and act?
Does he live and act in NiTe fashion? Or does he write like a Gamma, but live like an NiFe?
Musings...
@auburn
I also have only read bits of the books, as I mentioned in the blurb on Discord - and watched the series. It's possible that despite my better judgment, the series clouded my view on things. I should really read a few of the books to be sure that he writes like a Gamma and that it isnt the series swaying me in that direction. Maybe the series was presented more Gamma. I know they left out a lot of things.. maybe some was ideology, or seemingly innocuous clues that would have insidiously slipped into the readers mind to promote ideology, but which were overrun with action in the series and got buried.
Also as I said before, my father is also a "realist" and it took me a long time to realize what the "NF" ideology was, and now I can't unsee it. He is also somewhat insidious.
So maybe I just havent seen it yet, specifically because my experience is colored by the HBO series, and thus I am just wrong.
I've read most of the ASOIAF series, and GRRM struck me as gamma back in the day, but that was almost 15 years ago. I remember thinking the way his characters' stories were interwoven and interacted with each other seemed Fe, but something about him seems TeFi. So what it IS it? What about him is giving us TeFi vibes? Because it's not just one or two of us who felt that from him.
(Perhaps I'm just unaware of what Ni + Fe literature looks like. It would be great to compare authors of the same genre)
I've looked at a few more interviews, and found this one particularly insightful (youtube.com/watch?v=MdSPFJcxCNM) as it describes his progress as an author through time.
He wasn't just born writing this way, but had to work hard at it and learn a lot of lessons along the way. His writing style is something he cultivated over time, including his character-focus narratives. Reading his earliest works before ASOIAF may also better illuminate on his psychology.
(But there's also the obvious which is -- not all Gammas are international bestsellers. In fact, being Gamma or Beta is irrelevant to the production of compelling works. I'm sure there are poor NiTe writers who can't convey subjective character experience well, and NiFe's who do. So I don't think we should attribute his success too much to any function, per se. That's what causes mistakes like people viewing Einstein as INTP because "how could he not be, look at his works?!")
Early Writings...
But insofar as we might take a fair approach at his work and what it conveys, I'd prefer to start at the beginning -- before his talents emerged to balance out any imbalances that a writer might have had due to their cognitive starting place.
His first publication ever was a story called The Hero in 1971 (link, page 119). It's about a decorated war-hero Kagen who is a space fighter and has earned many honors in his 20+ years of service and now wants retirement on Earth, which he's never actually seen before (humans inhabit other planets now too) but which his time at war should earn him a place in and which represents the planet he's been fighting to defend for decades. The Major, Grady, resists his desire to retire and doesn't wanna let him go -- saying that although a solider's "benefits" do guarantee a bountiful retirement, almost nobody actually retires. After insisting, the Major agrees and puts him on a spaceship to earth and to his retirement, ...only to actually kill him on the way there.
An interesting detail was that as he was being killed, his war medal (a "Stellar Cross", was pressed into his chest making him bleed). So there's some Christian symbolism there too.
I see this story as a commentary on political corruption. Does the Major never actually pay-out his soliders? How many others who have tried to "retire" have gotten killed? What cause are they actually fighting for? Is it all a fraud/scam? What is Earth actually like?
The message seems to be "even if you fight heroically for your cause and are a good citizen, political/financial corruption will make your efforts vain" as well as "your cause is a lie."
This short-story does seem Fe to me, but more specifically a kind of angsty and disenchanted Fe. It's an Fe story that is tragic and unfair, but it's clearly a commentary on heroism (Fe myth) too.
This still says nothing definitive about George R.R. Martin himself, but at least I'm starting to understand his mind a little more. It's conceivable to me that his approach in GOT is a result of a kind of a tragic Ni/Se realism and awareness that is destructive to Fe's aspirations and hopes. The GOT series always felt to me like throwing up the middle-finger to Fe's desires. We have Fe protagonists like Ned Stark who are honorable/noble, and what does the world play them with? Death.
And so the brutality & arbitariness of life ..the harsh meritocratic undertones of GOT... may not be a result of a Te writer writing about their Te, but of an Fe writer writing about their contentious (demonic?) relationship to Te's truths?
Something I haven't thought too much about until now, but which might be of value, is the notion of opposite-function myths clashing. We have Fe-vs-Ti manifested in "Void & Flame" and Fi-vs-Te in "Nature & Machinery" ...but what about Fe-vs-Te? Would it be something like "Reign by Honor vs Reign by Power"?
And could GOT be (ideologically) interpreted as a commentary on different methods of Je rulership?
I have no idea.
y'all folks that keep talking about gamma vibes from the show need to pump the fuckin brakes and actually read the books. GRRM has very little to do with the show and they've rewritten incredibly large portions of the series to spare time and complication.
the books also never feel like they delineate any kind of ideology on this matter. GRRM doesn't seem to have (at least in the space of the books, i can't talk to his irl feelings) a negative experience with the triumph of might over honor. It simply is what it is.
In this world, honor is a strategy that gets you killed a lot and conniving is one that seems to work. Simple.
"In the game of thrones, you either win or you die."
@puffs
I mentioned that in the posts where I talked about him, that I had seen the shows and it might skew things. But I still think the realist vibe is hard to ignore, and it's unlikely that someone who wrote those characters and that plot would be Ne-Si.ย As I mentioned myself, the show and the books may have discrepancies between them which would clear up some confusion about Gamma and Beta. Maybe his ideology that he's promoting IS, in fact, the idea that people are just like this and thus we should get out of our heads and look at reality. My father's 'ideology' is kind of anti-ideology in a same way, like "get yours because nobody else is going to get it for you."ย Also, Putin is NiFe. I mentioned this here in my early posts when discussing the Gamma vibes and how they could be wrong for this reason. But I can't imagine that the CENTRAL THEME is so different between the show & the books... from what I understand from people that have read the books, it's more that a lot of detail and characters are left out, but the over-arching themes remain similar.
Oh, I just saw @auburn's post above, I had somehow missed that. But I'll leave up my initial reaction, since it was actually quite similar to what Auburn wrote.ย Auburn is more articulate ๐ but this is what I was getting at.
The message seems to beย โeven if you fight heroically for your cause and are a good citizen, political/financial corruption will make your efforts vainโย as well asย โyour cause is a lie.โ
This seems to be the case in GOT as well.
He wasnโt just born writing this way, but had to work hard at it and learn a lot of lessons along the way. His writing style is something he cultivated over time
I've been talking about this myself as a writer. Not that I feel comfortable comparing myself to him as an author, since I haven't published anything except short articles in my lifetime, as of yet. But comparing myself to himย as a human who is writing books, I have been talking a lot here about how I cultivated my abilities. Bottom line: My writing itself, compared to my old writing, is unrecognizable. But my THEMES are still quite similar, and I believe that is likely to be the case for most people.
[SPOILER]
I was born with a gift for songwriting, and cultivated it; but I was not born with a gift for writing or words. When I was 11 I wrote two 400 page books, and one of them on another planet. That one has a plot and characters that compel people a lot, to this day, when I talk about them - but the writing itself was so awful that I imagine nobody could actually READ it but me.
I had another equally compelling "vision" when I was 21, which lead to the books I'm working on now. Around that time I paired up with a TiNe who had written languages and a whole history along with them, which put me off at first since I wanted to be fully responsible for the worlds, the history, etc; but then it turned out we had both envisioned a very similar world, similar magic, identical three species.. so we just had to work together. Over time we developed the mythology, for about 10 years. I had drafted book 1 and half of book 2 in 2002 and 2003, each taking a month; and it just poured out. But I was nowhere near ready to have the public READ it. The writing was awful.
Finally around 2012, I joined my first forum and started really working on writing as a craft, an art. What you see now in written conversation online is a very different beast than how I would interact in words before that.
I tried to explain this to the people who insisted I was Beta NF and not Gamma SF due to my supposed eloquence. I told them I may appear (somewhat) eloquent now but I've been working at this for years, and frankly I have a lot of determination & willpower (this, I was born with)...ย so I actually do tend to make progress when I put my mind to something.
I know people arguably smarter than me, like my husband @ivory for instance, who can write clear and compelling sentences as though the Gods spoke through him - and also understands the root of concepts at a level I could only dream of - but he had to work on his willpower; something I was born with and/or cultivated in early childhood. If I could get him to ghost-write my books, I'd probably like them better. However, he has his own goals and visions, as do most people; and unless I wasย multi-millionaire I would not be able to afford someone as brilliant as him, to get them to dedicate their life to writing my books. This is why I decided if I wanted it to be done well, I just had to shape myself into the person who could transmit this vision.
This is why I sayย I am a vessel through which passion emerges, and my life's purpose is to polish the vessel.ย The characters, plot, interpersonal stuff, meaning, etc; is easy for me. That seems to be the stuff Martin worked hard on.ย The part that's hard for me is actually writing it. Words.ย The craft. I'm polishing myself as a vessel so that over time, when I write new scenes, they flow out. This has already started to happen!!! But I'm still stuck editing my old scenes.
I would argue most people, in order to produce a body of compelling work, have to work hard.ย There are instances when you just write something and it's amazing; but it won't just "keep coming" and you'll be a one hit wonder if you don't refine yourself. Trent Reznor is a music genius with an impenetrable work ethic, also.
Knowing that Martin struggled with characters and worked hard on it, gives me a lot of hope. Because that is something he REALLY does well. Maybe one day I can write well. Who knows?
[/SPOILER]
So I know all about cultivating skills - but it seems to me that "who you are" can't really be hidden. It will show up in your work, one way or other. My leading character is also not very similar to me at all, and embodies JiSe with Beta themes - but "who I am" shows in the whole setup of the thing, and what it stands for. I don't think writers, musicians, and artists can help this.
I have a really hard time ascribing to the idea that someone's work - especially something as extensive as GOT - could stand apart from "who they are." I would not evaluate who he is based on one character, unless he explicitly stated that character represented him (which of course would still be his mythologized idea of himself, rather than his "self" - but that would say something about him). But the idea of stepping back and seeing what the whole series is about, like Auburn summarized so well in that post; and how it might indeed show Beta rather than Gamma - in that it's SADLY succumbing to a "Te' world and commenting on what's WRONG with that world --- is what would reveal something about Martin, I think. And I strongly agree with Auburn's interpretation; it's very much along the lines of what I've been thinking about since my father got typed as NiFe, and now Martin. That.... some NiFe's might "accept" that the realities of Te can't be done away with, so they 'comment on it' and philosophize about how to deal with it. As a psychiatrist, my father helps people to face these realities, and he often talks about his methods in doing so. But there are other psychiatrists who don't have that kind of approach. So it would make sense to assume that if someone really focuses on a certain message that they are imparting to others; they may have struggled with it themselves at one time.
So he is NiFe after all !
(I am basically confirming the Se addiction theory by coming back on the forum 2 days after saying I'll take a break because I am falling behind at work :)) )
Regarding the methods of rulership - I think this is actually the main theme of the books ! The books and the TV show both seem to explore what makes the best leader and how different leadership styles fail or succeed. There are also some important issues about spirituality and how different religions fail or succeed but they are not the main focus.
The GOT series always felt to me like throwing up the middle-finger to Feโs desires. We have Fe protagonists like Ned Stark who are honorable/noble, and what does the world play them with? Death.
I will disagree with this, but maybe it was not that clear in the show what GRRM wanted to point out with Ned's death. I can't remember very well what I got from the books and what from the show.
In my opinion Ned died because of his lack of diplomacy/political foresight and this is actually a lesson for the reader/viewer- that it is not enough to be honorable to be a good leader. You also need to be able to prevent horrible things from happening to you and to your people. You must also be able to read your opponent's motives and to prevent him from killing you. Because it is crucial for you to survive in order to be able to protect everyone that depends on you.
This is basically what Cersei told him and what puffs quoted above - In the game of thrones you win or you die. ย He died because he lacked other qualities, not because he was honorable ! At least this is my opinion, I can't know exactly what George Martin had in mind.
Many of the Starks made some typical...Stark mistakes ๐ at some point or another - they trusted the wrong people, took hasty decisions, assumed the best instead of being reserved, chose to invest in other people instead of sticking to their own family etc. There is a process of learning for the ones who survived. They basically learn how to overcome their own flaws or what is needed to survive in the real world, remaining honorable.
I think Sansa, Arya and Bran managed to learn to combine their native inclination towards honor with appropriate survival skills. It's interesting that the combinations are all different from each other. But still honor is maintained and mixed up with something else, something that makes them stronger (hey, I hope they are still alive, I didn't see the last episode yet :)) ). At the same time, there are some identity questions- is this ..other thing a part of them or something completely foreign? Are they actually still themselves and still true Starks? Sansa learned a lot from Cersei and Baelish; Arya tried to become No One, Bran claims he is no longer himself.
I don't know if this is relevant regarding the Fe vs Te views and I think I will analyze them later or tomorrow because I am not sure you are right but I also don't have another idea right now.
But what I want to say is that the Stark story lines suggest that honor is not enough and that something must be added to it in order to survive and to become successful.
Maybe their stories are about Je that needs Pi support.
Tywin had an interesting talk with Tommen about what makes a good king (except for the part where he is manipulating him to listen to counselors and to get married :)) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doY0IjisBlk
A king must be wise ! I think many situations in the books are life lessons about wisdom and perspective. This is one of the reasons I actually can see George Martin as being NiFe from a psychological point of view too - since Fe is connected to mentorship and coaching and ASOIAF is very instructive ! There is a moral lesson in almost everything that happens in the books; we are not just being told a story, we are being taught how to act in the real world.. in the disguise of narrative.
To end this long post, ASOIAF is in my opinion not so much about people finding their inner essence and other Fi or Te themes, it's more about tribalism, mentorship & the human condition, as well as about balancing heroism with wisdom. But all these themes are general and it is hard to see his psychology reflected in the books because the narrative is very complex and it's hard to say who he resonates most with from his characters. (though I think it could be pretty safe to assume that it's Jon). ๐
@Animal, I just saw you also said something above. I will return tomorrow because right now I can't stay longer. ๐
Oh, about corruption and your cause being a lie...you can put it like this but I would put it in another way. It's more - this is the real world and this is what you could do or not do to be successful in it. It's very similar to fairy tales like Little Red Riding Hood ! There are big bad wolves. This is what happens if you get too close to them. I see it as realistic and instructive, but not demoralizing/making you feel like there is no more reason to fight because anyway you can't win. No, you can win and GRRM is showing you how. ๐
@bera - That is a wonderful post with lots of things to think about! *processing*
^^Seconding this XD. What's funny is that I had that exact same observation of Ned Stark that Bera did when my best friend (TiNe I'm fairly certain) said that Ned Stark did nothing wrong; from an honorific/ moral perspective that is true, but he did do something wrong in that he didn't understand what kind of a jungle he was living in, to borrow a phrase from Solzhenitsyn. And that failure to recognize reality had terrible consequences for his immediate family. I do wonder whether P-leads identify a lot with realism and "how things are", and that polarized ones would be concerned both with "how things are" and "how things develop" whereas the opposite would be true for J-leads and polarized J-leads, they would be more focused on the ideal of how things should be and how to get them there. Just speculating ๐
Edit: Hmm. I am almost positive that Frank Herbert (author of Dune) is an Fe-dom (FeNi I think), and I very much get the sense from his books that he is actively trying to teach important lessons to humanity through his fiction, but I failed to pick up on the same trend in GoT (granted I binge-read the entire series in the span of a couple days), instead finding the series as more of a very well-wrought page-turner than a treatise on morality. Whereas Bera, and my best friend as well, were able to notice that he had created a sort of moral system to impart lessons that you had to glean from the history and current happenings within the universe rather than through the more direct moralizing style of a Je-dom. (And iirc my friend picked this up from interviews of GRRM and from watching the show, with no direct knowledge of the books).
There is a moral lesson in almost everything that happens in the books; we are not just being told a story, we are being taught how to act in the real world.. in the disguise of narrative.
@bera
Hmm, I absolutely love your post, but it brings up an interesting issue for me - that my book actually functions the way you describe. Certain characters and their "mistakes" represent certain moral lessons and instruct the reader. In fact, my books offer a lot of religious and political advice and methods in the same manner you describe, including characters "losing themselves" to become stronger or to fulfull their greater purpose. This is another of the many ways that I, and my writing, match @auburn 's Fe description.
@ivory and @spirit_of_the_gael and Mish (i need to find his forum name) have all read my book in entirety and Arya has even read book 2. They could back me up on this. My protag undergoes this heroic transformation for the sake of survival and becoming something more, to end book one; and in book two you see the new her, with a new name, etc. Another character takes on not one, but many, personnae in service of their goals and visions. Another transforms and individuates in the same ย manner I did and have talked about, all for the sake of channeling his cause. (My cause is bringing Erosia to Earth; embodying its spirit and delivering its essence.)
So I have to wonder if youre interpreting this as a Gamma, or if we are all collectively wrong about the differences between types. My books and life reflect the Fe description and the way you describe GRRM's books.
I had conceptualized that Fi was about the characters "embodying the essence" of something in a highly personal way, and then Te would be about cutting away at that idealistic, personal essence and transforming it for the sake of survival. Basically you can't embody your Fi identity, principles and "cause" or bring it to fruition, if you don't have Te to fight the enemies outside and protect your inner castle. This is basically what @bera is describing for the Starks, and thats why I relate to their journey so much, especially Arya - who is pushed to give up her strong core essence and become "no one." She incorporates the lessons she learns from the "no ones" and yet proclaims "I am Arya Stark." She leaves their castle as Arya, with their lessons in tow, rather than becoming "no one." This is where Ji and Je meet. I could see this applying to any revisor's hero journey, really.
But how would that exclude Fi/Te? If the Starks were true to themselves and represented certain personal things and then learned to coldly battle the harsh world, so that their principles can come to fruition in this cold reality - couldnt this also be Fi incorporating Te? In fact, I'd have a hard time justifying how that concept is Ti-Fe rather than Fi-Te. The only part that sounds like Fe is the use of the word "honor."
Dany is the NiFe or FeNi character whose idealistic hero journey goes to shit. Because she doesn't.. um.. revise it. ๐
I would venture to say the Stark house is very Fi whereas Dany and the Targaryens in general are very Beta, and the Lannisters embody Te.
My first book is centered around two Beta judgers and an NiTe woman. In book two my SeFi character makes an entrance and the things he stand for, which match mine, start to affect the Betas. Theres a major clash between him and the FeNi, in which no one can win and the reader has to decide who is right. This is obviously about Daddy issues ๐
I would hypothesize GRRM might also have a Te parent or important figure , or maybe a Te ish society etc, which he had to contend with and thus he placed his personal "mirror" Dany in an endless battle against the Te enemies.. only for her to discover that if you fight the enemy, you become the enemy. Just a thought...
itโs unlikely that someone who wrote those characters and that plot would be Ne-Si.
@animal why?
They basically learn how to overcome their own flaws or what is needed to survive in the real world, remaining honorable.
I think Sansa, Arya and Bran managed to learn to combine their native inclination towards honor with appropriate survival skills. Itโs interesting that the combinations are all different from each other. But still honor is maintained and mixed up with something else,
@bera Bruh what. Sansa and Arya have become liars and murderers who's only real concern is protecting their family and Bran is at this point a being who exists outside of time and humanity and honor isn't even an applicable concept to him anymore.
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