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Inner and Outer worlds

Home 2023 › Forums › General Psychology › Inner and Outer worlds

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
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  • #10818
    hackphobia
    Participant
    • Type: FiSe
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/aXuTt7c3Jkg" width="738" height="414" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe>
    "Your soul is in great need, because drought weighs on its world. If you look outside yourselves, you see the far-off forest and mountains, and above them your vision climbs to the realms of the stars. And if you look into yourselves, you will see on the other hand the nearby as far-off and infinite, since the world of the inner is as infinite as the world of the outer. Just as you become a part of the manifold essence of the world through your bodies, so you become a part of the manifold essence of the inner world through your soul. This inner world is truly infinite, in no way poorer than the outer one. Man lives in two worlds" -C.G. Jung

    "Man’s task is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious. Neither should he persist in his unconsciousness, nor remain identical with the unconscious elements of his being, thus evading his destiny, which is to create more and more consciousness."  -C.G. Jung

    " The third age of human history, played out vastly over two past millennia, is drawing to a close.39 We now stand at the threshold of a new aeon, an epochal turning of perspective. An “enantiodromia” in human consciousness is coming. The demiurgic Spirit of this Time with its dominant monistic rationalism has reached a cataclysmic end-time. This is a period of darkness, dissolution, and inevitable psychic disruption. But there will be a new dawn. As the old age fragments and factures, deep seams are rent open, and from forgotten depths, an ageless treasure will emerge. In coming time, humankind will rediscover the manifold essence of an inner world, light and dark. And with it will come a new perception of man and woman and God and their intimate relationship."

    TO BE CONTINUED....
     

    #10980
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @hackphobia - the first image is awesome !!!
    Can you say more about your experience?
    Yes, yes, we call it fate ! But the Fates seem to be inside, not outside. And they weave their threads there.

    #10981
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    Love the last quote.
    I wish people were more aware of Jung so they could realize what he says there is the real truth regarding fate

    #10982
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    Oh, Celeste, you noticed I said "seem". 🙂
    Because I don't know, but I am more inclined to believe it then not to. I like the idea from a purely aesthetic point of view ! It is beautiful ! But saying I know it is true would be dishonest. I don't know.
    Of course I am aware Jung believed it to be true. And I don't doubt that our inner world has a great influence on outer events ( like on starting The First World War, to give one of his examples).
    But he went much deeper with this idea, he went close to mysticism. And here is the issue.
    Jung was NiFe. His first function is my last. And my first function is his last. Not sure if I should add that I have inner struggles around Ni but some of you guys seem to be totally into your last function, without any tension, so I guess not everyone starts by rejecting his last function by default, right?
    Anyway, this has an influence on how I perceive Jung's ideas. I get excited about their beauty and about their familiarity - they don't look like foreign objects to me, they look familiar... But a part of me questions them. Well, I question everything but I question them more because they are alluring. 🙂

    #10996
    Celeste
    Participant
    • Type: NeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Unseelie

    I also don't know if it's a real thing or not since the mere description of fate is very vague and open to interpretation.
    But I definitely like Jung's definition especially since the archetypes and the collective unconsciousness complement it very well. Regarding his mysticism, he seemed to mix it at times with science and religion all into one. Especially when he talked about the union of the ego with the unconscious.
    You're not alone with struggling with the inferior function, I especially start to hate anything related to Si after I realize that's the cause of my stress aka being on the grip. Since I don't have Si developed I can't really say anything, but my guess is that even when it's conscious there is still a certain small part of the mind that rejects, or distances (?) from it, even though one has learned to be agreeable/welcoming regarding the inferior function. Kinda like that person that you don't really like that much but you still hang out and have them around because over time you've learned to accept they might bring something valuable to the table. Does that make sense? lol.

    #11003
    Animal
    Participant
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: lll-
    • Attitude: Seelie

    On the first page of my website I have this quote of mine:

    It's so central to me that it's the second thing on the website. The first is this:

    There are enemies, heroes and saviors within, and without. To me, God is ubiquitous; God is me, God is you. God is all of us together and each of us separately. God is the space between us, the world within us, the sky above us and the grass beneath us.
    So I am not particularly concerned with discerning God's will, or worrying about enemies "out there." I find it more productive to focus on the things I can control - such as my own actions.  I search deep inside myself to discover what resonates, what gives me purpose, why I wake up in the morning.  God has shared essence with me - I have been given a body, a mind, a soul, a heart... and if I can reflect its innermost depth, I will discover truth that is universal. Whatever resides at the deepest parts of me, is also what resides at the depth of any human being. It connects us all. The path to get there, the thoughts and feelings about it, may vary from one person to the next... but in essence, we are all essentially human.
    I hope to reflect that bare, naked humanity in my work, and offer it as a mirror so that others may look into it and discern whatever they see fit. They may see themselves, they may see God, or they may simply discard it. That part is up to them. But I strive to reflect something so bare, real and essential within  me, that I strike a universal chord and others may experience its resonance within themselves. I may or may not achieve this, but the journey inspires me to get up in the morning. The sense of purpose and passion that I feel, inspires me to radiate passion to others. My interest in depth, inspires me to tune into the worlds other people carry within them. This purpose and passion connects me to God, to the cosmos, to others... and to myself.
    I feel it's important to invite my demons out to dance with my angels. If I suffocate my demons, isolate and shun them, they will become angrier and hungrier, and eat my angels alive. This dance, the rhythm between them, is the dance of light and shadow which I reflect in my work.
     

    #11016
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @hackphobia - the video you posted can't be seen. I forgot to tell you ! Try to edit and post it again.

    @celeste
    - Yes, I will give you another quote by him that I read recently :

    Life does not come from events, but from us. Everything that happens outside has already been.

    And :

    I would not have been able to see what was to come if I could not have seen it in myself.

    And I think he was talking about the First World War, that he foresaw in a vision.
    In my opinion, fate is a predetermined course of life. Or the predetermined future of humanity. That you can foresee, because it already exists from the beginning as a code (like the DNA) or as a seed (by which you can tell what tree will grow from it) or as a pattern that keeps repeating itself over and over again.
    This is why I mentioned the Fates : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai
    They spin, measure and cut the threads of our lives. And if Jung was right about forces like The Fates - I don't know if he specifically wrote about them but he mentioned some themes that I see as connected to them - they are inside us and not an external force. So, if you reach their place under all layers that are above them, you can see them spinning your life. You can see the threads.
    I already imagine a whole scene involving the Fates, but by describing it I think I might diverge from the topic and I also think I must try to visualize them to see the ending of the scene anyway.

    @animal
    - do you have some inner demons that look like the Fates? Or did you have them at some point? I just realized they exist. I mean, I knew something like them existed, but pictured it differently. Hey, maybe they are not demons for you. They don't need to be demons. Generally the Fates are neutral, I guess.

    #11024
    Rua
    Moderator
    • Type: NeTi
    • Development: ll-l
    • Attitude: Adaptive

    @bera
    For me this question of the Fates reminds me of a poem I wrote entitled Clotho's Hours:

    We rise creaking above our undressed heights,
    Above the bottles and the butt-ends strewn
    Where vaulted ambitions lie, thinning hopes
    Spun from threadbare mooring lines, unravelled
    Like feral witches' claws that rake across
    The tomb of Summer, harbingers of Fall:
    Three Spirits shaking idled strings
    As the wind shakes the ash of a cigarette free.

    More pertinently, I find that the question of fate and its relationship to the human experience was very well explored in Dune and Dune Messiah by Frank Herbert [the other four books in the series are well worth-reading if you enjoy the universe and the ideas it explores, but these first two certainly feel differently than the rest, and narratively there is good reason for that].
    For those that haven't read it, the most basic premise (though the entire series deals with some extremely interesting philosophical/ psychological questions of what it means to be human) is that the central character, Paul, gains an ability to foresee and create the future of the planet he inhabits and the universe at large, but this knowledge comes with a sense of "terrible purpose" that haunts him, as he cannot see a way out of the coming bloodshed that inevitably comes with a new imperial power (himself) in the universe.
    I will be going into *SPOILERS*SPOILERS* now in the second Dune book:
    In Dune Messiah there is a plot against Paul's imperial rule, and at one point he is blinded in an attack meant to end his life. With both eyes permanently gone, Paul foregoes a pair of mechanical replacement eyes, instead appearing to everyone who interacts with him as if he can still see everything and that the loss of his eyes did not impair him. In fact, Paul can only know all the details of every interaction in his life because he has chosen a singular path to walk down, having chosen that thread of fate he moves through life as does the prisoner who walks every centimeter of his cell a thousand times. Unfortunately I was unable to locate my copy of Dune Messiah in a reasonable amount of time so I will go from memory: Paul's thread of fate runs its inevitable course, and leads him to a dilemma in which knowledge and the power to do what is right are proved two very different things; Paul is offered a morally wrong choice by another character that he cannot refuse emotionally. In the end, there is a moment in which Paul is able to literally see through the eyes of his newborn son, and thereby finds the way out of his dilemma.
    After typing it out the psychology of such a scene seems patently obvious: in order to move ahead in a way that is right and in tune with the world, you cannot have a singular perspective. However, it is to Frank Herbert's great strength as a writer that he explores essentially that same, seemingly refuted idea of a universe centered around just one perspective, and sets it against a timeline of thousands of years, and furthermore, from the perspective of that now very much changed (mentally and physically) boy whose eyes were first used to break that singular perspective (in the ending of the second book: Dune Messiah [is it getting complicated yet?]). Heady stuff. This elaboration of this monolithic, God-like enforcement of a singular perspective is the story of the fourth book in the series: God Emperor of Dune.

    #11033
    Bera
    Moderator
    • Type: SeFi
    • Development: ll--
    • Attitude: Seelie

    @rondo - I have to tell you your poem reminds me of this song :
     

     
    It also reminds me of Si. I see you have developed Si. So, you also write poems, not only short stories ! Would you like to share more of them? I am really curious about how alphas see things, since you have completely different functions than I do.
    I read a part of Dune but sadly I did it when I was too young to understand everything clearly and I can't remember everything you mentioned.
    SPOILERS !
    The first book impressed me so much that I...harmed myself and still hold the mark. :))  You know, Bene Gesserit had to make sure Paul was The Chosen One and to be able to confirm it they had a test in which he had to put his hand in a box where he would feel great pain...as if his hand burned to ashes,  but without his hand actually burning. And I was curious if I was The Chosen One too. :)) So, I lighted a match and decided to hold it on my palm until it burned out. Which I did. I never thought it would leave a mark but it actually did, too bad the light isn't very good here and I can't make a good picture to show you. I have no idea what had gotten into me. Now I realize it was an Fe scenario, so, really, no idea why I did it. I just thought to share this because the burn created a white dot on the lines in my palm. So, was this a way of changing my destiny? 🙂
    From God Emperor of Dune I can only remember Leto's transformation (or was it in the previous book?) and some of his interactions with Hwi. I loved Hwi and rooted for them as a couple. I was devastated when I read the bridge scene.
    I think combining classical themes like Fate with science fiction leads to peculiar scenarios. Paul could foresee the future but there are other issues that were connected to predetermination in a more naturalistic way. I remember Hwi was genetically engineered and then educated specifically to make Leto fall for her and abandon his path. And he foresaw that but could still not help falling in love with her.
    There is also at least one Duncan Idaho in every book, which is sort of a SF depiction of recurrence, I guess. I can't remember how they produced the Duncans, let's see... They were similar to clones but could remember the memories of the original Duncan Idaho.
    Another thing I found very interesting was the passing of memories between the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers. When I read about it, I felt there was more to it but I couldn't quite grasp what. Much later I realized there must be a connection between this and the collective unconscious. I just looked it up and indeed The Other Memory was inspired by the collective unconscious.
    Of course it was much more, though, (or was it? we still don't have The Water of Life :p ) ! The Reverend Mothers had all memories and experience of all women in their lineage AND could take all memories of other Reverend Mothers. This actually makes the hard discipline in their order logical. I think someone who lacked that level of discipline would just quit being involved in the present and stay forever in contemplation, remembering everything that happened to all her female ancestors, to all the Mothers and to the mothers of mothers of Mothers from the beginning of time ! I would certainly do that.
    And Paul had all memories of all his ancestors, men and women, being the Chosen One, that Bene Gesserit had been expecting (and trying to genetically engineer) for such a long time. I'm not sure if this was somehow connected to his ability to foresee the future...? Maybe seeing far back in the past is connected to seeing far ahead in the future.
    Regarding Leto's single perspective - I can't remember much about his political views and will have to read it again to be able to tell if he was a tyrant or a savior. Or both. But he was an abomination himself, having the Other Memory active and he must have been able to access some type of understanding no one else could have, as he was no longer human. It was his single perspective but this perspective was widened by him having a committee of ancestors advising him and probably the capacity to think with an animal mind. A sacred animal mind ! This is very dark actually. What makes a good or a bad ruler? What does it take to become one? Does it imply losing humanity and does the regaining of humanity imply losing control over people? Is leadership itself monstrous and how much shadow must be integrated to be able to decide over so many destinies?
    I am so happy you reminded me of the books ! I am going home for Easter and they are still there, so I will start reading them again.

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